Show notes
[00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome to today’s episode of Perspectives I am so thrilled. I think I said every time, but I'm particularly thrilled about today's guest. We are going to be meeting Dr. Richard Schwartz who is the, he’s on the faculty of the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard medical school. He was associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Illinois at Chicago is Institute for Juvenile Research.[00:00:29] And later at the Family Institute at Northwestern university, Richard began his career as a systemic family therapist and academic. So his background is definitely in family therapy. He's very familiar with attachment theory. Now he has developed this methodology, this beautiful body of work it's grounded in systems theory, and he's developed a therapeutic technique called internal family systems therapy or IFS also known [00:01:00] as parts therapy.[00:01:01] And he developed this and he shares at the beginning of our conversation, how it came about. He was working with clients who claim to recognize they had several components or sub personalities or parts within themselves, which is separate from having multiple personalities. It isn't that. So he began to focus on these relationships amongst the parts within his clients.[00:01:23] And he began to notice that there was systemic patterns in the way they were organized in every client. He observed that his client's parts were often rebellious or troublesome or overly controlling. And when they weren't attended to they could get a little out of control. So you've, you've ever had part of you that perhaps flares up a little bit too much, or part of you that's over controlling what needs you've got the perfectionist streak in you, or you're a little bit too anxious for the occasion or you find yourself particularly reactive.[00:01:56] Well, this is really for you because what Schwartz [00:02:00] observed is that if we paid attention to our internal narrative and we really tapped into the truth of us, there was an essence of us, a truth or a truest self-amongst all the anxiety of the controlling or the playing out or the anger or whatever it was.[00:02:18] And there was a beautiful self within, and that if we can have our paths feel safe and when they're allowed to relax and when the clients are allowed to experience their truest self and begin to realize they can trust themselves. And love themselves and feel compassion for themselves, that whole beautiful journey to self-compassion.[00:02:38] Then what can happen spontaneously is the qualities of confidence and openness, compassion, love, clarity, calm, courage, begin to show up and it's in all of us. No, one's the exceptions. So from this beginning of working with clients in these beautiful discoveries, internal family systems or IFS came about in [00:03:00] the eighties, I love it because it's non pathologizing.[00:03:03] It's really aligned with coaching. It is based on truth. It's based on honesty, encouragement and acceptance of all of us and true compassionate at the deepest level is no judgment. There's no rejection, there's no pathologizing any of it. And that through this journey of acceptance and compassion and embracing us with a technique and in the podcast, Dick works with me as a client and you will see the technique play out how we can be in touch with our truest selves, that centred itself that's in all of us and reach out to a part of us.[00:03:36] That's perhaps felt not as loved. We can reach out to it with love. And you'll see in that it's real, it's not a role-play as I do that. And they're beautiful consequence of that when that part realizes that it is loved and accepted and hasn't been rejected it's now evidence-based IFS is evidence-based has become widely used as a form of psychotherapy.[00:03:58] You’ll hear in the podcast how [00:04:00] it's going to be rolled to coaches, which are things really exciting. He's published a ton of books. One of the books that I've devoured, and you'll hear on the podcast, I've read this a number of times is Internal Family Systems therapy by Schwartz Swayze. The Mosaic Mind I must say is a little bit more for the therapist.[00:04:16] So it wasn't really applicable to me as much Internal Family Systems therapy by Schwartz. He's also got a beautiful audible that I do parts of it most days called Greater than the Sum of our Parts and he's done other works as well. And I he's also got courses available online at the moment. The beautiful thing about this is his energy.[00:04:37] You're going to. I'm sure feel as I did with him, he's got a really great energy. A beautiful energy is a very open soul, very accessible to chat with about it. And we have quite a long conversation about IFS we unpack what it is, what the parts are and their different functions within us, what our centered selfies and how important it is to recognize is in all of us, [00:05:00] we self is about how we can bring it into our daily practice.[00:05:03] And then what we do is we look at how we can bring it alive in our coaching practices as well. If you're a coach, I believe it's fabulous for leaders, for parents, for anyone who wants to relate at a different level. And I believe its truest gift is it's compassionate pathway to ourself. And so here he is the man himself, Dr.[00:05:23] Richard Swartz. It's so great to have you with us today, Dick, I know there is going to be many people around the world interested to hear this conversation. I know there's also a lot of coaches who are going to be a thousands of coaches will be listening to this, curious about how we can incorporate what you've developed into coaching.[00:05:40] Could you start with sharing a little bit about yourself and how you came to be at this point for Sharon? Thank you for inviting me. I'm, I'm honored by how supportive you are of IFS and yeah, it's it's quite a story goes back about 40 years. I I [00:06:00] just graduated from a PhD program in marital and family therapy and I was one of those obnoxious.[00:06:08] Family therapist that thought we found the Holy grail and wanted to prove that. And so in my effort to prove it, I did an outcome study with a eating disorder called bulimia. That was sort of new on the scene back then and found that we could reorganize the families just the way the book said to do it.[00:06:30] And still many of my clients didn't realize they've been cured and they just kept going. So I got frustrated and started asking what's going on? Why are you still bingeing and purging? And they started to teach this to me and they would talk to this language of parts. And they would say some version of when something bad happens in my life.[00:06:54] It triggers this critic. Who's now calling me all kinds of brutal names [00:07:00] and the critic brings up this part that feels totally young and empty and alone and worthless. And that feeling is so dreadful that almost to the, the rescue comes the binge to take me away. But the act of the binge brings the critic back.[00:07:16] Who's now calling me a pig on top of the other names. And that, of course it brings back that young, empty, worthless feeling. And so the bit the binge has to come back and to me as a family therapist, this sounded familiar. It sounded like an inner system that interacted actively inside of my clients, but it also sounded scary at first.[00:07:39] Cause I thought, boy, maybe these, these young women are sicker than I thought, you know, maybe they're more like multiple personality disorder until I started listening inside myself and then I've got them too. And some of mine are as extreme as there is particularly the critic. And I have [00:08:00] my own binges I did[00:08:02] so. with that I started to just explore. And I was lucky in that I hadn't studied intra-psychic process in other theories so that I had to just be curious and just keep letting my clients teach me. And one of the things that was a hard thing for me to learn at first was that these parts, aren't what they seemed[00:08:28] and that actually there aren't any bad ones, so that it took a while, because at first I was thinking they were, the critic was an internalized parental voice and the bench was an out of control impulse. And when you think of it, that way, it's limited how you can have your client relate to that either you try to get them to stand up to the bench or control on, stand up to the critic or control the binge.[00:08:56] And as I was doing that, I encourage clients to do that. [00:09:00] They would get worse. But I didn't know what else to do. So I'd say stand up stronger control more until the first client that I was aware of that had a sex abuse history and cut herself on her wrist and insisted on showing me the open wounds, every session.[00:09:18] And I decided we weren't going to let her out of my office until that cutting part had agreed not to do it to her that week. And so after a couple of hours of badgering, the part it finally said it wouldn't and I opened the door to the next session. And now she's got a big gash on the side of her face.[00:09:37] And I gasped at that and just spontaneously spit out. I give up, I can't beat you with this. And the part said, you know, I don't really want to beat you. And that was the turning point in the history of this work, because I changed out of that controlling place to just curious, [00:10:00] why do you do this to her?[00:10:02] And the part talked about how, when he, she was being sexually abused, it needed to get her out of her body and it needed to contain the rage that would get her more abuse. And so I shifted with that now. I'm not just curious, but I have an abiding respect and appreciation for the heroic role as part of played in her life.[00:10:26] And as I got to know it more though, it sounded like it was still living back in that time. Like it, it didn't realize she had grown up and wasn't in that kind of danger anymore. So with all of that, I started to really change my view of these parts. And now 40 years later I can safely say that there aren't any bad ones.[00:10:49] Like I said, that that's the nature of the mind to have them. We all have them. They will be called thinking, is them communicating most of the time? [00:11:00] And it's, we're born with them. They they're valuable assets to us as we develop in life and trauma and well cortical attachment injuries, which would be bad parenting basically forced them out of their naturally valuable States into roles that can be destructive and also freeze them in time and give them what I call burdens, which the definition which are extreme beliefs and emotions that came into your system from some kind of a trauma and attached to these parts, like the COVID virus almost and drive the way they operate afterwards.[00:11:48] So to heal them. We learned that you have to get them out of where they're stuck in the past and you witnessed what happened to them. And then. Help them unburden release these extreme [00:12:00] beliefs and emotions, and then almost magically though transform immediately when that happens. So anyway, that's a long answer that dig.[00:12:08] Yeah. That's a great answer. I just want, I was curious because I have read the story of how you began. I'm curious. I think you may have addressed in one of your books. What was it like for you back then? 40 years ago, discovering Internal Family Systems when your specialty had been external, as we see family therapy, what were your colleagues saying?[00:12:29] What was, what was the lay of the land for you as you began talking about multiple voices in people's heads? I'm trying to imagine it's the seventies. Yeah, well, it was early eighties, early eighties. My apologies. What was the narrative going on around you with your colleagues, as you seem to have made this discovery of an internal world?[00:12:55] You know, I was attacked. Isn't probably the best word, but I, I got a lot of criticism [00:13:00] from both sides. My family therapy colleagues felt like I was betraying the cause because family therapy, a pendulum swing away from psychoanalysis or psycho traditional psychotherapy, where you spent a lot of time focused on the individual and their intra-psychic process in family therapy said, no, we don't need to do that.[00:13:23] We can change everything by just changing these external relationships. So a lot of my, and I, you know, I was building in that field. I coauthored the basic textbook. That was the most popular textbook by then. So a lot of my colleagues saw me as a traitor and were pretty vocal about it. And then I developed it in a department of psychiatry at the university of Illinois at Chicago.[00:13:54] And it was a very psychoanalytic department. And the, [00:14:00] one of the big luminaries in that department took me to task claiming that I, I was fragmenting people by having them focus on these things and that I was dangerous basically, and tried to get me fired. So, so yeah, it was a rough ride back then. And, you know, in retrospect to get through all of that, I had to rely on parts of me that could be arrogant and didn't care what people thought and just said, I don't, you know, and, and we're very protective of other very vulnerable parts of me that felt really worthless.[00:14:41] And we're. You know, mortified that people would be judging me that way. Yeah. And so it wouldn't have been papers produced. There wouldn't have been a team of colleagues that you could talk with about this, your entire narrative was with your clients, and then there's literally [00:15:00] your there's known unknowns.[00:15:01] And then there's all the unknown unknowns and you were dealing with nearly all unknown unknowns. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty lonely for quite a while. And then I started getting the courage to talk about it more. I started to draw students who were very interested and so we, we had a little kind of study group where we'd compare notes, every session.[00:15:23] And, and some of them actually contributed quite a lot in the early stages of this, a woman named Mitchy Rose in particular. And, and so that really helped when I felt like. I had a kind of support. Yeah. Good. I'm pleased I can't I'm imagining back then. If the feedback you're getting is from clients saying one thing and your colleagues is saying another, the internal conflict for you must have been the greatest because external acceptance from your colleagues when you're in the role you're in, is what you'd always [00:16:00] measured your progress by until then.[00:16:01] And now there, none of that existed, none of what you'd counted on, you could rely on anymore. Yeah. You know, I, I come from a very scientific family. My father was a high powered medical researcher, physician, and he always talked about follow the data, even if it takes you way outside your paradigm. And if, if you're consistently getting this data, even if it's some totally controversial just stay with it.[00:16:35] And that was a huge lesson for me. And he, he was quite supportive even though it all sounded kind of bizarre to him too. Yeah. Good. So can you talk us through what I F S is internal family systems? Can you give us a snapshot in your own words? So those who are unfamiliar can have a deeper sense of what it is.[00:16:58] Yeah. So [00:17:00] it's been a form of psychotherapy, but it's also becoming more and more a kind of life practice. And we are trying to bring it to other groups like yours and it Involves some basic assumptions about people that are different than the most common assumptions about human nature. One of which is that it's, it's the natural state of the mind to be multiple and to have what we call parts and that each of these parts are individual personalities that have a full range of emotion and belief and thought and, and interact inside in a system.[00:17:42] And that that system is can be studied and, and transformed and that these parts, aren't what they seem, that they're all valuable and forced into extreme roles. And also that [00:18:00] just beneath the surface of these parts that I've talked about is what I'm going to call itself, which is a kind of essence.[00:18:09] That is in everybody can't be damaged and knows how to heal. It knows how to heal these parts once you access that stuff and knows how to heal external relationships also. And, and so a lot of the IFS has become helping people access that essence. And in that state begin to relate to these parts and to relate to their intimate partners or relate to their, the people that work for them or that they work with.[00:18:44] Or so to, to encourage what we call self-leadership both internally and externally. And I stumbled on ways to access that very quickly. In most cases, Hmm, the way I look at IFS [00:19:00] is it's the easiest way I've found to help me with my inner reactivity. That's that's what IFS has given me. It's the fastest way and the easiest way I've found to help me process my reactivity might, if you want to call it triggers, I don't like that word, but my inner activity.[00:19:20] So I don't play it out on the person I'm with, or I don't play it out on what I think is the source of my upset instead. The gift for me is if I think the source of the upset is someone else to me, IFS tells me that is a gift for you now to have the opportunity to look within. And I have fish hoses, how to look with them because there are plenty of modalities, Dick that say go within, but they don't tell you how it's like meditate or sit with it or let's see what counts.[00:19:50] That's not helpful. And as someone who's been doing this for a while, it's just doesn't help me. So I, this is showing me the steps of, okay, that I, that [00:20:00] can't be the source, but that is a lesson. That gives me the opportunity to go within and we'll walk through the process of that hopefully, and then I can then deal with my reactivity instead of thinking they have to change.[00:20:12] It's a gift and an opportunity for me to grow in that area, beautifully said Sharon. And in that way, you're using the other person as what we call a tormentor tormenting, you, they're mentoring, you tormentor with a hyphen between the tor and the mentor. They're messaging you about what you need to heal.[00:20:34] And, and also in our crazy language, you're following the trailheads that that person has put in your face, which are emotions and thoughts and impulses that if you focus on it, We'll take you to a part that needs your attention, that needs your health stuff. Yeah. So just slow it down there. [00:21:00] So the way to my understanding is the way to know that a trail head, a trail head is a thought emotion of physical movement that you intended or didn't intend.[00:21:11] It could be a sensation. It could be a visualization. It could be a, just a, a thought feeling. Any of that are opportunities or what IFS would call a Trailhead to a part. And there's nothing bad about it. That's the thing. It's not that we're, there's no bad parts in all the years you've been doing this.[00:21:31] There's not a, you've never come across a part that wasn't lovable ultimately, and we couldn't feel love for that's. Right. And I've worked with people who, you know, whose parks had made them do heinous things. I spent seven years working at an agency for. Sex offenders. And we, we do this work in prisons now with people that have murdered people.[00:21:54] And even those parts, when you have the person find it and focused [00:22:00] on it, and instead of fearing it or hating it, curious that those parts will tell their secret histories of how they were forced into the roles they're in and how they carry the burden of their perpetrator’s energy. That drives them to want to perpetrate[00:22:16] right. And so on. And so on. What was your, I don't know if this is putting it on the spot, but what was the recipient recidivism rate after working with IFS on people who'd done those crimes? Well, we didn't do real good outcome studies with it. You know, anecdotally the people that I know of it really well, but we don't have a clear outcome study.[00:22:43] So I'm loathe to say more than that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So someone listening, because I'm familiar with it. I don't want to make too many assumptions about what people know. Yeah. So we'll just slow down there. So a part is a Trailhead is a thought, a feeling, [00:23:00] a sensation, it's a visualization, it's a voluntary movement or ambulatory movement, which is an indicator.[00:23:05] We could meet a pad. And in IFS we want to meet that part can you walk us through the types of parts there are? Cause I, I, I know there are types of parts and once people get familiar with the world that we're about to build for them, it's really fun to play in that world. It's joyful to know how to go inside and translate what we're saying into activities.[00:23:31] So can you walk us through, let's just start with the basics, the types of parts. Yeah. Well, again, I'm a systems thinker, family therapists. So as my clients where we're describing this landscape to me, I started to look for distinctions and the big distinction that leaped out immediately was between.[00:23:54] There was some parts who were quite young and sensitive and [00:24:00] because they were sensitive inner children, the traumas affected them the most. And so they would wind up carrying, you know, it would be like an inner little girl inside of you before she got hurt. You loved her. It was, she gives you all this delight in the world and the desire to get close to people and playfulness and creativity.[00:24:25] But after she gets hurt, now she carries the burden of emotional pain or terror or shame or something like that. And now you don't want anything to do with her because she can make you feel as bad as you felt during the trauma. And she's still stuck back there. And so you consciously or not. Lock her up inside in a way we call exiling and try to just move on, just move on.[00:24:58] I know [00:25:00] like the US and Australia is kind of just move on culture, like rugged individualists. And so you think you're just moving on from the memories and the emotions from the trauma, not knowing you're locking up your most precious qualities and in doing that, so these, we call them exiles. And when you get a lot of exiles, you feel much more delicate, and the world becomes much more dangerous because all kinds of things could trigger those parts.[00:25:35] And when they get triggered, it's like flames of emotion are going to totally consume you and overwhelm you and make it that you can't function sometimes. And so then a lot of other parts I recruited. Into becoming these protectors to try and contain those exiles and protect them from the world. And some of them do that by trying to [00:26:00] manage your life so that the exiles don't get triggered.[00:26:03] They, they manage your relationships so that you don't let anybody get too close, or you don't let people, you depend on get to distance or they manage your appearance so that you don't get rejected and they manage your performance. So you did a lot of accolades to counter the worthlessness that the exiles feel.[00:26:25] So we call them managers, it's one class of protector. And then despite the best efforts of these managers, you still get that the world still has a way of breaking through those defenses. And an exile comes bursting out and that's a big emergency. So there's another set of parts, protectors, whose job it is to deal with that emergency right now.[00:26:51] Like I've got to get away from this feeling or it's going to kill me. And so they are the ones that do the bingeing, [00:27:00] the impulsive reactive, like the reactive part of you, you were talking about and they don't care about the collateral damage to your relationships of your body. They just got to get you away and do it immediately.[00:27:15] And so that's the other class of protector. So that's a pretty simple map. And again, I want to reiterate that these aren't descriptions of the actual parts it's descriptions of the roles they're forced into, and once released from these roles, they often do something entirely different. Sometimes quite the opposite of the role there.[00:27:36] It's always valuable. But, so that is the little map managers, firefighters, both of whom are protetors trying to protect and contain these exiles. So can we go through an example with someone who might be experiencing anxiety? Can we create a construct of a person? So our viewers can get a sense [00:28:00] of what an example of that could be.[00:28:02] And I'm happy to share my example. If you can share an example of those three inactions,[00:28:07] we could, we could also role play it if you wanted, or could actually work with your anxiety, if you have any[00:28:13] yeah. Well, let's make it real. And I did think about something that, and I very carefully didn't do any work on it. I did not do any ifs and yes, I'm more than happy to demonstrate it because I have an inkling. I have a Trailhead. Which is a thought feeling that I'm happy to[00:28:30] let's do it. So what's the thought feeling a feeling here in my gut, sometimes high in my gut and sometimes low of righteousness or needing to be right. Needing to correct and make it right. And there's a tension around it. Dick like there's a tension, like I want to, this has gotta be right. Yeah. And it's got to happen right away, right?[00:28:59] [00:29:00] Yes. There's an urgency to it as well. Yes. There is an urgency. So as you notice all that in your gut, Sharon, how do you feel toward that part of it?[00:29:13] I don't feel anything towards it just yet. Hang on.[00:29:18] It just is what other ones do you, it just is, you don't have an attitude about it. You don't want to get rid of it or you, you just, just noticing. No, I want to understand it. I want to understand it. It just is. And I would love to understand it. I certainly don't feel anything negative towards it at all.[00:29:37] It's part of me. Right. So focus on it again, down there and let it know. You're curious about it and just ask what it wants you to know about itself and wait for the answer. Don't think of the answer. Just wait for an answer to come from [00:30:00] that place.[00:30:01] I'm here. I want to be heard. Okay. Are you open to hearing it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let it know. You're ready and just see what it wants you to hear.[00:30:19] It's hard. I work hard is a lot to think about part works hard. Yeah. I'm I'm just hearing what it's saying. I work hard is a lot to think about and, huh,[00:30:37] it's a tough job. Someone's got to do it.[00:30:40] And Sharon ask it, what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do this love job.[00:30:46] Get judged.[00:30:48] Yeah. So you'd make a mistake and get judged or how would you get judged[00:30:54]is it okay? That I take a moment. Cause I'm really, it takes a while for this to happen for me. [00:31:00] Yeah. I'm just going to go inside and be. Sure whenever you need,[00:31:07] there's a sense of it would get criticized if it didn't get it right. It wasn't a sentence. It was a feeling. Does this match? Yeah, it does make sense. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Let it know that that makes sense to you. You can understand that. And how are you feeling toward it now? I feel really compassionate.[00:31:32] I'm giving it a big hug. We'll let it know that. Yeah. Perfect. How's it. How's it reacts to melting, melting into me. That's great. It's like[00:31:50] call the weight just, yeah. Yeah, that's great. [00:32:00] Yeah. Maybe ask it how old it thinks you are[00:32:04]10.[00:32:05] Yeah, so maybe when you were 10, it needed to worry like this, but let it know how old you really are. You don't have to tell me[00:32:15] I’m going to fudge it a little bit, but I get what you're saying. Yep.[00:32:19] And see how it reads. Okay. See how it reacts to the news that you're not telling anymore.[00:32:25] It’s in. Awe just, wow. And it's looking up like, wow, it's amazing. You're so old.[00:32:35] Yeah, but let it know. Well, it's finding it funny that I'm that old,[00:32:45] but let it know that since you're not 10, you can do a lot more anticipating and, and controlling the world than you could bear. So you can rely on you [00:33:00] a little more than it thought it could and just see how it reacts to that idea. It's just hugging me.[00:33:07] It’s like the easiest hug. Like I've done some parts work before, but this one's just like, of course you're here. That's right. Yeah. Ask what it would need from you going forward to really trust it. Didn't have to work so hard[00:33:28]to know that I love it.[00:33:31] That that's the strongest message I've got from wow.[00:33:37] To know. I love you. Yeah. Yeah. So, Sharon, are you, are you good with that? Can you reassure that? Yes. Yes I am. So tell the part, you're going to do that for it.[00:33:54] Yep. I'm doing it right now. [00:34:00] Fantastic.[00:34:01] It’s so good.[00:34:03] Just love this love and playfulness and excitement. I can't even explain it, but there's excitement and there's freedom and there is[00:34:20] playfulness like[00:34:22] almost to show off playfulness. Wow.[00:34:25] Wow. I'm just telling you it. It's amazing and loved. That's great. So does that feel complete for now?[00:34:36] Feels awesome. Dick. I don't know how to recognize complete, but it feels amazing and so close. There's no distance now between us. There's this we're a team. That's great.[00:34:57]and then tell the part [00:35:00] just that you're going to follow up on it every day. You're going to remind it that you love it at least for a month. Yeah, yeah,[00:35:11] yeah. And then when you're ready, come on. Back outside.[00:35:14] It’s just fantastic. Yeah. It was a great example and[00:35:23]I feel amazing.[00:35:25]Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. It's a great demonstration of the work I'm still there a little bit. Just enjoying. I don't want to drag you away. Yeah. I just feel really tingley oh my God. My fingers feel electric. That's what we call self energy.[00:35:54] When you fall apart like that, it opens the channels for this energy to flow through your body. [00:36:00] I read about it and I was feeling kind of ripped off. Cause it never happened for me when I've done my parts work be for, I guess I feel a little tingley and it's all electric. It's like yeah. That when you touch static, it was all static all down my hands.[00:36:24] Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So that'll be more accessible to you now. Cause that that little worry part was blocking it. Okay. I just need to have people know who are watching this. This is real right? This is very extraordinary feeling. It's still there. It's a very healing energy. And that's part of how, you know, when yourself is in your body, because you'll start to feel [00:37:00] more of that.[00:37:02] So everything feels like it's static and electric.[00:37:06]I know you know this, but this is I'm having quite the trip right now.[00:37:11] Wow. That is extraordinary. Thank you. Thank you. It's a very happy, happy to do it with you. Oh, wow. Okay. Coming back. And that just stays. I just get to have this. Yeah, you gotta keep taking care of that little, little part. And there might be other parts that'll block it at different points for different reasons.[00:37:42] Yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's just there. It's just in you and around you. It's so good. If you're not feeling it, then you just track down the part that's blocking. Okay. It's like the best [00:38:00] investigation you can ever do for yourself on yourself. That's how I look at it. That's right. Wow. It's very powerful data.[00:38:07] That is, that feels extraordinary. Yeah. As I, you know, as I go through my day I'm noticing how much of that I'm feeling and if it cannot feel much, I'll just find like there are my, you know, usual suspects in my forehead and on my shoulders and I'll notice them and I'll just remind them they could relax.[00:38:30] And then I just feel it moving into my body. Yes. Yes. I've started doing that with a couple of parts. I visit them every day and have been for a month and we're getting a really well, but this level of charge, this is new. Hmm. Wow. Okay. Next question.[00:38:51] I feel a little high. Is that something that's been said to you before? Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:00] Especially when you, when you helped a key part, because the part is feeling so great. You're just feeling the delight of this little, this little one. Okay. Let's call it a delight and not high, but I'm feeling a little high.[00:39:19] Okay. Okay. So one of the things I'm going to have a go now at where I wanted to hit in this conversation. Thank you so much for that. That's. Wow. Wonderful. I'm going to have that old day with me. That's just tremendous. And I will visit every day. So I heard that's a great example for people who are watching or listening on how powerful and wonderful this is to me, it's joyful work dig.[00:39:44] When I go in and follow the trail head and find the part and what I love, and I hope that's demonstrated is it would be so easy on the surface to judge that part oh my God, you need to knock it off. And why am I always so blank? And [00:40:00] I wish I wasn't and Oh God, I've done it again. And instead, if we now know how to embrace it and get to know it and find out its positive intention, we realize all along, it was on a team, but it was doing it at the age at which it learnt how to protect us.[00:40:19] That's exactly right. Very well said Sharon and I was kind of surprised when I asked you how you feel toward it. That you didn't say something like that. I'm annoyed by it. I wish it would go away because most people do. That's the first thing most people say they do. I've been doing a bit of work in ifs for a while.[00:40:38] I'll, I'll give you the heads up. IFS I think even before I knew I Fs, I realized I've got to love all of me. And one of the things they teach in coaching is we to reject any emotional or aspect of ourselves is to reject ourselves. And the past to self love is to accept all of us, even the bits that we don't understand or [00:41:00] relate with.[00:41:01] That's partly why I'm so excited to bring this to coaching and why I'm so excited to talk to you because I think in some ways more than psychotherapy ifs is a really good match for the philosophy. Yeah. Yeah. We'll get to that. Cause I'll share with you soon. How I am bringing. Ifs or aspects of it for nonclinical populations to coaching, because there are aspects of it I've already pulled IFS we starting to put into the curriculum and I'd love to chat with you about it.[00:41:31] So we've got exiles who see the world is dangerous possibly, and they're pro probably more delicate than we have the managers or protectors who have no tolerance for fear or shamefulness or emotional pain. And they'll do anything to hide the exile it's almost like they're a guardian is the way I picture them.[00:41:51] That's right. Yeah. There's a lot of common manager roles. So there is, there are managers that keep you in your head all the [00:42:00] time and don't let you feel your body and keep you an intellectual. And then there are managers, particularly for women who take care of everybody. So, and never let you take care of yourself.[00:42:13] And there are managers who are scan for danger all the time. Are a little hypervigilant and so on and so on. And you know, there's a lot of comp and again, they're just the roles. These like yours was just forced into, but what they should, and then we have and then we have a firefighter above that whose role is if the exile breaks out, they're going to come in and they're going to suppress it.[00:42:42] And they don't care who they hurt, how they lash out collateral damage means nothing to them. That's right. Yeah. Which means there's a built-in polarization between managers and firefighters, because managers are [00:43:00] all about keeping you in control and pleasing everybody and firefighters do the opposite most of the time.[00:43:07] Not always. And so that's what I was saying earlier with the bulemic who the binge part was her firefighter. And then the manager was attacking her for letting the binge take over like that because it would, you know, make her heavy and so on. And so most of us have that kind of battle going on inside between managers and firefighters.[00:43:34] And that battle becomes self-perpetuating because the more shame these inner critics, which is another common manager role give you the more they shame you, the more that goes right to the heart of these little exiles who feel even worse now. So that makes the job of the firefighter even more important.[00:43:57] And then the, so you're in that vicious [00:44:00] cycle. So I'm picturing somebody who has say they can't control the temper for example, if I was to put that in IFS narrative, I possibly would sense. See what this gives me, Dick, this is another great gift of it. You'll never see anybody else the same way again, because if you see someone angry, you know, you're probably seeing a firefighter, which means their exile is feeling unsafe and the protector didn't do the job.[00:44:28] So there's a lot more compassion now with interactions instead of just judging it or blaming it or rejecting it, you can observe it from a compassionate detachment. Bingo. Yeah. That's beautiful that you're really getting it. I'm very impressed how deeply you've got the model. Cause that's right. It's almost like you have x-ray vision in the sense that you see past the, your opponent's protectors to the vulnerability and the pain and the terror and the shame that drive those [00:45:00] protectors.[00:45:01] And you can have compassion, which doesn't mean you don't, you don't stand up to that person, but you can stand up to that person. From Self we haven't talked about this yet, but we're getting to self definitely. Okay. So the, as I was seeing this in everybody, this was like the same person would pop out when parts would open space.[00:45:25] I started to catalog the qualities that would, would come out in that person. And that would be things like calm and curiosity and confidence, compassion. And as you're getting the, I'll begin with the letter C courage, clarity creativity and connectedness, and three of those confidence, clarity and courage means that self can be very forceful and clear and can take a stand.[00:45:58] But with compassion [00:46:00] with, with also with compassion. And that's, you know, when I work with leaders, I'm working with lots of social activists now. And many of them have these very angry, judgmental parts that they do their activism from, that motivates them. And we're getting those parts to relax similarly to how we had your anxiety part to relax and trust their self to do their activism.[00:46:27] And when they do that, they're just much more effective activists. So could we go so far as to say some activists are activists, because they don't know how to manage their internal journey? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of activists got hurt somehow or had a trauma and had a part say, I'm going to make sure this doesn't happen to other people.[00:46:54] Yes, that's driven them, which is great. You know, it's, [00:47:00] it's, it's great that it's got them where they can do this, but it also polarizes. Well, the problem with it is activism. When it's taken to the extreme, in the terms that IFS is, it's a firefighter who will shame someone else cause they don't care about clinical collateral damage.[00:47:18] So they will shame. They will tear down. They will try to destroy someone metaphorically because they are coming from a place where they haven't got in touch with the part that needs the healing or they getting a keep using the world as a landscape to resolve, which only can be resolved through this internal journey.[00:47:41] That's right. Yeah. That's right. So yeah. So I'm helping them regain the trust of those protectors, helping the self. Get trusted again by the protector to lead just to the way yours did. Yeah. And then we're also which [00:48:00] we didn't do, but we're also going to what the protector protects and healing and that isn't necessarily the domain of coaches.[00:48:09] Exactly. Yeah. I'll talk to you about that in a moment. We'll talk about true self now, and then I'd love to chat with you about how coaching and coaches can integrate IFS because I do see some very strong parallels that are beautiful. So the, our Self I call it our true self in our trainings. You call it the self with a capital S can you walk us through, can you introduce us to this phenomenal, remarkable truth that we all have a Self it's?[00:48:41] Fantastic. Yeah. I just stumbled into it because my family therapy background. I was trying to get clients to have a different kind of conversation with these parts. As I was learning about the parts from my class, once I got hip to the fact [00:49:00] that they're not what they seem and that they deserve to be listened to, I was trying to get my client to get curious and interact and have a dialogue much the same as you got as you did with your parts just now.[00:49:14] And I was finding that as we were saying earlier, maybe let's say I'm having one of these bulimic kids have tried to talk to her critic and it's going okay, because she's staying curious, but suddenly she's angry at the critic. And then the critic gets defensive and escalates and. It reminded me of family sessions, where I'm working with a teenage girl and her critical mother.[00:49:42] And as I'm having them try to get along better, she suddenly the girls gets angry at the mother and you looked around the room and you see the father is cuing her, that he disagrees with the mother too, and she's fighting his battle for him. And so we [00:50:00] taught his family therapists to get him out of her line of vision, get them to step back in the room and create a better boundary around the mother and the daughter.[00:50:09] And when you do that, the girl settles down and they do have a decent conversation. I thought maybe the same thing's happening in this inner system is I'm trying to have my client talk to her critic, a part who hates it has come in and is doing the talking. So I started asking clients, can you find the one who just jumped in and is so angry at the critic?[00:50:31] And could you get it to step back in there? Basically the same intervention or relax or open space and as they would do that, cause I was amazed that people could do that. It would just suddenly they would turn into this other person who had a lots of curiosity, calm compassion for the target part and things would go really well.[00:50:58] And I could get out of the way and [00:51:00] they would just take over the session because they knew how to relate to that part of the heli way. And when I would do it with other healing it was like the same person popped out. And so at some point I started asking what part of you was that? And they'd say some version of, that's not a part that's me, that's myself.[00:51:22] So I came to call that itself of the capital us to distinguish it from the common use of the word self, which is. Me as a whole person. And now, again, 40 years later, thousands of clients later, thousands of people using this all over the world, we can safely say that that is in everybody and can't be damaged and it knows how to heal.[00:51:46] And, and as we were saying earlier, that's a big deal. It's amazing. And it, and it's there in everyone. There are no exceptions. So for anyone who's listening, who's got huge, soft doubt or the challenges around self-esteem or the [00:52:00] convinced that somehow they've got a flaw you also have this centered self that is filled with calm and clarity and compassion that is filled with a sense of connection and creativity and curiosity and confidence and courage.[00:52:17] It is innate in all of us. It cannot be damaged. It cannot be taken away. It is innate in every single person. There are no exceptions. And now for the person who's listening, thinking. Yeah, but I am the exception. You're even, you are not the exception. It is in you.[00:52:34] That’s right. And, and it's just beneath the surface of these parts, such that when they open space, it's just pops out. And, and as you were experiencing earlier, there is an energy to it, a vibrating energy that your body, and it's, you know, its what people meditate to get to, but this is a quicker way to get to, and then not [00:53:00] only get to it, but actually from it begin to lead your life both internally and externally.[00:53:08] And this is the real key. Let's walk through ana scenario so I, if I know someone who's very, very defensive, for example, and they hearing a scenario going, why don't feel very centered? I don't feel the eight C's can you describe just your hypothetically, how is their centered self or their true self hidden?[00:53:28] If it's somebody who has described this person as defensive, they are overly protective. They're highly self-conscious. Yeah. It's what we call blended that the defensive part has blended with their self. And thinks it has to sort of like your little worried part plans with you sometimes and makes it, so you don't feel very secure.[00:53:53] The parts have that ability they can, they can take over and you can suddenly see the [00:54:00] world through their eyes when they do that. And so a lot of the work is just convincing them that they don't have to do that. And as, as we found, they're often stuck back in times when they, they did need to do it when you were 10 and are not aware that they don't still need to do it.[00:54:23] So, so the defense would go ahead. So I was going to say, and it's not that they take over the center itself. I don't want anyone hearing thinking the center itself can be hijacked. Or in any way co-opted to work for a protect. It doesn't, it is sacrosanct. It is sacred within, as soon as the seat of our consciousness, it is unblemished through all of time, but the protectors take over and it takes a back seat.[00:54:51] It is no way blemish though. Yeah, yeah. In a sense they, they can take over and and partly [00:55:00] because it can happen so quickly that they blend with us, that we're not even aware of it. And we just start to look through at the world through their perspective until you start to get hip to it. And you notice, so I, I work with lots of clients who, who have a lot of very extreme, protective parts that they're quite blended with.[00:55:26] And so gradually I help I say no, that isn't, you that's this. Defensive part. Let's get to know it. And as they get to know it, then they get a little separation from it. And then as they separate from it, they get a little more access to sell. And then if something happens that, that the defensive part gets a, I know you don't like the word triggered, but what's the word you reacted reactive.[00:55:56] Yeah. If it takes over again, [00:56:00] now they kind of notice it's taken over. Whereas before they wouldn't, they would just be that part. And instead of going with all of its paranoid stuff or whatever it's saying, while they notice it's taken over inside, they can kind of say, it's okay, I'm here still. I can, I can handle this.[00:56:24] And so that becomes the way to handle your anger rather than all the. You know, affect regulation skills that you have to learn all that stuff. Yes. And the way you put it, Dick is we're going to learn to speak for our parts instead of from them. And I love that distinction. So rather than just feeling reactive and then acting on that reactivity, it's that cause and effect, I feel it.[00:56:51] So I'm going to say it it's hang on. I feel it reassure it, remind it that you're here and you've got [00:57:00] this and then speak for it. And to say I'm feeling part of me is feeling whatever it's feeling and thought of me is feeling tense right now. Part of me is feeling upset with the way that you put that and it's really feeling uncared for.[00:57:15] So I'm just going to take a moment. I'm going to breathe into it because right now I feel like part of me wants to lash out. But there's a bigger part of me that wants to maintain their connection with you. And that's a very different scenario in the conversation with someone you love. This is just coming from that reactivity with the justification and the heat that we can feel.[00:57:36] Yeah. I I'm continually impressed with how deeply, you know, the model. And so I'm very happy about that, but that's okay. Be a good opportunity to just do this internal family systems therapy by Schwartz and Sweezy, is that the one you recommend? Yeah, well, that's for therapists, but coaches would get a lot out of it too.[00:58:00] [00:57:59] It's the second that people want to get. I really have been studying it Dick because I've found it very joyful way to getting I am a meditator and I'm a very poor meditator. I'm the first to say that. So finding IFS and realizing, I now have something to bring to my meditate. My daily practice has been very energizing for me and I enjoy doing it now, whereas before it's been quite a challenge.[00:58:26] And so there's been a lot of joy around that internal journey now because of the guidance that you've provided. One of the things I love about self is in many traditions, in fact, all throughout history, in the spiritual traditions, the Self is a witness, or is a is silent and still, but for you Dick and IFS the self is very active.[00:58:47] And shows up and doesn't just witness, can you just flesh that out a little bit? Yeah. Again, you said it really well, and that's a lot of what spiritual traditions are [00:59:00] designed or try to achieve is to have you in that witness consciousness, where you're noticing your thoughts and emotions. You're not bonded with them and you're noticing them maybe from a place of acceptance, but you're pretty passive.[00:59:15] You're not active with them. You just kind of witness. And for me, it's not compassionate to watch suffering beings’ parade by. So if you think of these as merely thoughts and emotions, it makes sense to separate and just witness. But if you think of them as suffering beings, which is what I feel like they are.[00:59:39] Yes. Then no, you're not going to just sit there and watch them. You're going to go and try and do what you did with your little one a minute ago. And you're going to become an active leader that they can trust because most of these parts are quite young, even the ones that seem so smart and, and protective [01:00:00] are, you know, usually not more than a teenager and they aren't equipped or run a whole person.[01:00:09] They actually, when they see that you're not 10 and that you're a good deal, older,[01:00:16]they get, they get a lot of relief from that. Cause it's like Lord of the flies, you know, it's like a bunch of little kids just trying to make it. And here comes some adult and they, Oh my God. Okay. Yeah. I love it. It's fantastic. One of the things that I'm loving is my daily practice. So if I was to talk about ifs in terms of outcomes, it brings me closer to flow.[01:00:44] What Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi talks about that state of flow. To me, it's about helping me experience balance on the inside and on the outside. It helps me know that my outside world is an opportunity for me to learn more about how I've [01:01:00] created my inside world. Is there anything else you would add in terms of that in terms of IFS just regular daily practice?[01:01:08] Yeah. It's also fascinating as you're finding, you know, who knew there was all this stuff going on inside of you. That is so interesting. And so, so that, and the more you heal these very, very vulnerable exiles. Then the more, the whole system relaxes. And so the goals that IFS there are four, one is the liberation of these parts from the extreme roles they've forced into, which is what we did really quickly with your a little one.[01:01:44] And then and then helping those parts start to trust self-more as the leader, both internally and externally, and then re harmonizing the inner system. So not only the parts [01:02:00] liberated from their roles, but they begin to get to know each other and work together. And you'd stopped noticing them very much because they're just doing what they're here to do.[01:02:10] They're doing what they're designed to do. And it's almost like, I don't know if you ever saw the murmuration of starlings that. With those videos, check it out. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's like, they're working as one organism and you feel much more integrated and there's a kind of beauty to that. And then you can be in the world in a much more integrated way so that your, the things you used to fear doing, you just don't have the same fear about.[01:02:46] And and that's a lot of what I'm doing with activists and, and you know, the things you used to rely on these intense protectors you don't need anymore. And so you can, like we were saying earlier, [01:03:00] you can see the pain that drives people like Donald Trump and, and, and all those extremes, even while you're not letting him ruin the country.[01:03:12] And, and then you also are no longer, so afraid to get really, really, really close to an intimate partner cause they can't hurt you in the same way. And so, yeah, there's a lot to be said about it and also you can get hurt, but handle it. It doesn't create this massive flare. It doesn't become an emergency Dick.[01:03:38] That's the difference for me, I'm still going to get hurt, but it's just not going to turn into an emergency. That's right. It's not going to be an emergency. And when I get hurt, I know to go to the part that was hurt yeah. And comfort and hold it in the way you just did rather than locked away. So that's, that's, we're trying to [01:04:00] bring this to education.[01:04:01] So the kids learn at an early age. If I get bullied, I don't have to exile the part that got hurt. I can embrace it and unburden it in the moment. Yeah, that's important. So let's talk about coaching and ifs. I can see some really beautiful parallels and some synergies there. One of the first things that I've took from ifs immediately into my coaching.[01:04:25] So I coach some clients is the beautiful, compassionate sense that whatever's coming up for them. There is going to be compassion for that. part acceptance, not tolerance. It's not even tolerance, it's acceptance and embracing and understand that that part of them was geared at that stage of their development to do the job the best they could.[01:04:47] And the moment we can relieve them of that job and find out what they'd prefer to do, they then have just co-opted the sense itself. Now has somebody else on their team to help them be all they can [01:05:00] be. Because I believe coaching really is. I don't think coaching is goal setting. I believe, I think that's so superficial.[01:05:07] I believe coaching's truest purpose. It is truest core is to help us become our truest selves, to bring us closer to, to knowing, experiencing, and expressing our truest self. That centred self you speak of. So to me, coaching and IFS works well together because it's a pathway to that. I totally agree with that.[01:05:31] And very well-spoken. Yeah. It's exactly what I agree with. Another parallel I see with coaching and IFS is this we're talking, we're taught in coaching and NLP. Neuro-linguistic programming that any sign of resistance in a client is poor communication on the coach's part. Whereas IFS turns that completely around and I've embraced it immediately because it's just so it resonates so strongly.[01:05:56] It's resistance in a client is smart [01:06:00] by the client because there is a part a particular part that isn't feeling safe in that moment and is quite rightly spoken up. And that's an opportunity, again, a Trailhead for us to go and visit that part and do what we do. And I just find that it's got so much flow in it rather than saying, Oh my God, I've communicated poorly when I'm with a really defensive client, because after a while, how do you get in how many hoops as the coach?[01:06:28] Do I jump through before I say, after all, actually the resistance is really in the client and this is very freeing now to know where to look for that. That's right. And some of that comes from, there was a point where I, where clients were having really bad, like backlash experiences after some of my sessions.[01:06:51] Yeah. And I started to realize these are delicate ecologies that I'm mucking around, and I better really learn the lay of the land [01:07:00] and how to be an ecologically sensitive Explorer with them. And so the map I described earlier came out of that. It came out of sort of necessity if I was going to keep doing this.[01:07:14] And what I learned was protectors often have a really good reason to not let you in. And, and if we just try to trick them into letting us that isn't going to either it's not going to work or they're going to have consequences later. Yeah. And so we learned to really respect the pace of the protectors and to get to know them first and honor them for their service and let them know.[01:07:47] That we're not going anywhere without their permission. So they're the boss and it's our job. It's our job to make a case for why it might be in their best interest to let us [01:08:00] do some of this. But, you know, they know better than us, the potential damage that could happen inside. So we're not going to push them.[01:08:11] And they've been doing only that job all this time. It's not like they know how to do something else, just because we think we know best. As you say, we have the same goals. We have a very non pathologizing. We share a very non pathologize sort of positive sense of human nature that we convey to clients.[01:08:33] And at the same time, I think I have has. Offers a language that helps people admit to things a lot more easily. You sell hope Dick because there is a truest self that is in all of us. So we coached the truest self rather than trying to fix something that is incredibly freeing [01:09:00] that is tremendous. That's right.[01:09:03] And I'm doing a lot of work around racism now in the US and so it's one thing to listen, you know, to have a reaction inside that's racist and think, Oh my God, I'm a racist and shame yourself to death. And to try to lock away the parts that say that, and it's quite another to have that same reaction and then think, Oh, I've got some parts that carry the burden of racism.[01:09:31] I'm going to get to know them. And, and I'm, it doesn't mean I'm a racist, I, myself, isn't a racist, I've got some parts that carry that legacy burden. So let me just get to know them and see what they need to be able to unload that. And so that's what I'm trying to bring to that whole conversation too. So not only is it make for an easier convert easier to admit to things like that, [01:10:00] but it also you kind of know that you aren't these extreme things that are going on inside of you.[01:10:06] You're much more than that, but it's also not labeling the person, which I just can't. I don't understand how labeling a person is helpful. I shaming anyone, regardless of it has never helped anybody heal or brought them back into the fold. So anything that helps remove shame and up the compassion. That's the direction we want to start getting the narrative going in.[01:10:31] It must be the language of compassion. That's the only path we're going to make progress. Totally agree in that, that goes both for inside and outside. If you're working with a client as a coach and the client has a lot of anger, let's say, or yeah. And you're afraid of your own anger, or you have an attitude about your own anger, [01:11:00] then that's going to play out in your relationship with the coach, with the client, or if you're afraid of your own exiles and your client gets very weepy or vulnerable vulnerable, it's going to be very hard for you to stay with them.[01:11:15] You're going to try and perk them up, you know, or somehow it gets them away from that. Or if you're driven by people pleasing, you're going to bring that to the coaching and not want to challenge the client. It's just, there's so many ways we play out on the client. That's right. So this is a very practical way to get to know all those parts and change those interrelationships.[01:11:40] And then you can be with people no matter how they are. That's it. One of the gifts Dick just to bring this towards the end. One of the gifts in this I've been teaching attachment theory for some time to some of our coaching students. This is a very different message to attachment theory. And [01:12:00] to me, IFS is the placeholder.[01:12:02] That must come first. And then you can draw on attachment theory to perhaps indicate where the parts may be. But can you just talk us through how that is? It is quite different. Yeah. I liked the way you put that because. There's much. I love about attachment theory. I think it's a huge gift to humanity. And there is this presumption in it that unless you had a certain kind of parenting during a critical period in your childhood, you don't have any of this stuff that we're calling Self[01:12:37] you have to get it from somebody from your wife or husband or, or from your therapist. At some point it has to come from an interaction it's not inherent in us. And that, you know, I was a big believer in attachment theory when I started on this journey. Yeah. And it wasn't until I started seeing self in [01:13:00] people who had horrible, horrible childhoods, there was no way you could account for self-showing up this way based on, on what their childhood was like.[01:13:11] And I started have started thinking. Maybe this is just in us. Maybe it doesn't have to come through and interact. And I also, I'd like to think of IFS as attachment theory taken inside because self becomes the good attachment figure to these insecure or avoidantly attached part. I love that. I love that.[01:13:36] So that rather than the therapist becoming that or the coach becoming that attachment figure, you're actually promoting the person to become that attachment figure to themselves. And the gift in it, Dick is with IFS the client does the work for themselves. With themselves. You may have an external guide.[01:13:57] Who's the coach or the therapist that you do the [01:14:00] journey. So you realize how truly empowered you are because every step you take in every step you make its you. No one did it. You can't say my God, you're a great coach. I did that. That was my center itself showing up that's phenomenal. Yeah. And people can do a lot of it on their own.[01:14:18] So people are, I work with a client, we'll have a good session and then they'll go away and, and follow up. And the first 20 minutes of the next session, they're just telling me everything they did on their own with their parts. Then we go on a little more. So it's empowering. So what are some daily practices?[01:14:42] So anybody's listened to this podcast. What are some daily practices we can do straight away to come closer to our truest self or at eight C's? Yeah. So a lot of what we've been talking about is doing a U-turn in your focus. Like, are you doing it, [01:15:00] but also why? Oh, you turn so. As you go through the day, you just kind of noticing your inner reactions and particularly noticing the more extreme lines.[01:15:12] And instead of acting, based on those reactions, you're using them as trailheads to find these parts that need your attention. And you don't have time during the day, or, you know, in the situation you're in, you kind of bookmark that you say, Oh my goodness, okay, I've got to follow up on this. And then you talk to your coach and your coach helps you follow that trail had defined the part that needs to be healed and, and, or needs more from you or need like we just did.[01:15:49] And so then life, rather than being so full of things you want to avoid or things that are so irritating. [01:16:00] Everything is Oh, okay. Another f-ing growth opportunity, you know, it's, it's true. All these can help you grow. Yeah. One of the ways I use it in my daily practice stick is I check in with myself throughout the day.[01:16:17] Am I coming from my center itself? The eight C's or if I'm expressing something that's not one of the eight C's that's to me, an opportunity to reflect on me and what it is that I might be bringing energetically that's causing some imbalance or lack of harmony in this moment. It doesn't mean, so always do something about it.[01:16:34] I'm not, I'm going to be human. And sometimes I'm like, yeah, you go, you go for it. Don't be the 8 C's cause I just feel dramatic or whatever. But at least I know now where I'm coming from, whether I'm grounded in me or I'm being taken over, allowed myself to be taken over by this reactivity is the way I look at it.[01:16:56] So to me, it's a lovely gauge to just check in for myself [01:17:00] on where I'm coming from and my intent in this moment. Very good. Yeah. And that's true for me too. I'll check on the agencies. I also have a few other markers that people are idiosyncratic in this, but I'll check. Do I have a big agenda right now?[01:17:17] And if I do, then that's a definition of part. Okay. Just step back. Just, just let me handle this or I can tell I'm very auditory so I can tell by my tone of voice, like right now, there's a nice residence of self in my voice when we started out. Probably not as much. So I'm just kind of noting this how's my voice right now.[01:17:44] And then this energy that you experienced for the first time now, I'm just like, do I have much of that energy going okay. It's not just open space, let it all come in. Wow. I love it. I really [01:18:00] encourage anybody viewing this. Who's intrigued by the inner journey and wondering how to go about that. IFS is a beautiful, gentle, compassionate, loving meditation to self.[01:18:11] And there are lots of meditation stick that I've been. Checking out and just experiencing for myself, it's part of my daily practice, but for anybody who wants to get more involved with IFS where would you want to send them? Yeah. So we have a website of course, which is surprisingly ifs-institute.com.[01:18:32] And on it, there are lots of books. Like the one you talked about and videos. And we also have a, a year subscription online program called the circle online circle program, which is you get a lecture from me every month and from some other trainers. And a lot of people start out doing that. I am coming out with a new book in [01:19:00] July called No Bad Parts through sounds true.[01:19:05] And that that's available for pre-order now. And yeah. And so we were saying earlier, at some point we really want to start training programs for coaches right now, coaches can join our training programs and there are IFS trainings going in Australia. And but I want to make it coach programs exclusive for coaches that has a curriculum based on the needs of coaches.[01:19:36] And so we're actively working on that. Well, we want a program that's for nonclinical population. Really that's, that's what a coach would want to tap into the non-clinical aspects. Whereas of course your work comes from very much the clinical end of the spectrum.[01:19:51]The other thing I recommend is Dick helped me with the title. Is it called the Sum of our Parts it's called Greater than the Sum of our Parts [01:20:00] that's it? And that's through. Sounds true also. So that's on my that's that's on my audible and I go to a meditation with you daily every day. My favorite is the pathway one.[01:20:14] This one I've taught some of my coaches really. Oh, that's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That one. I love that. Richard, you are a delight. I am so, so thrilled that we got to have this conversation. Finally. I'm just so delighted with the work that you're doing and I can't wait to see what you'd bring to coaching and what we can do in that space.[01:20:35] Yeah. I've loved the conversation too. I had no idea that you knew so much about it and were so into it. So it's been a great joy for me. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you, Sharon. And you're a delightful person too. Thank you. I appreciate you're very, very kind.