Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Michelle Obama, welcome to Call Her Daddy.
Hey, Alex, look at here.
Call Her Daddy, I'm here.
You don't even know. Cool set, too. Thank you. It is beyond an honor to be sitting with you today. How are you doing?
I'm doing good. I mean, I'm personally good, individually good, feeling whole. But, you know, the world feels a little nutty. And so there's, you know, that piece of it, seeps in, in ways. But I'm happy to be here.
I'm happy you're here. Talk to me about your outfit. How did you pick it?
My outfit, this is a Meredith Koop original. And as we were thinking about promotions for the tour, there is a picture that a lot of people have been showing of me at Princeton. And Meredith Koop had the idea of updating. This is the Updated version.
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Chapter 2: What challenges do women face in today's society?
It's on one of the first pages. I remember when I looked at it. One of the first ones. And when she brought it to me, I was like, you are so, look at this. I mean, isn't, so it's a redo. It's the next version. Oh, that's so good. My campus look. 2.0. Meredith. Or 5.0. Yeah, yeah.
So we were like, this is the perfect place to do it with Alice.
I love it.
Okay, I am going skiing soon, and I heard that you are also a skier.
I love skiing, but I'm kind of putting up my ski boots. You're done. I just feel like I am just one fall away. Okay. You know, because I am like a crazy skier. Like I can't ski a little bit. I'm like skiing all day. Oh, you're going black diamond. I go, well, I go black. I don't go double black. I like blacks and blues. Are we doing moguls? No, no, not yet.
But when I ski, I'm still the former first lady with security. So I have sort of a ski motorcade. So there... Wait, I'm trying to picture myself skiing down. You can't tell, right?
You can't?
No, because the agents are, they're blending in, you know, some are snowboarders and some are, but they're usually in the front and the back, right? so that no errant person just clobbers me, you know? So I don't really know what goes on behind me when I'm skiing. I just know we make it down. And I usually, I ski with an instructor. I ski in Aspen. Vance is my ski husband and I miss him dearly.
Vance!
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Chapter 3: What strategies can women use to deal with misogyny and double standards?
One really sad reality of this is that it's not just men tearing women down.
Women.
It's more often women tearing each other down. And That's even more painful because it's sadly, I hate to say it, we expect it from men. And so it hurts that much more when it is another woman doing it to another woman. How did you deal when women came at you and do you have advice for women who are victims of being unfairly targeted?
I mean, it's... And surprisingly, yeah, it would hurt more coming from a woman because it's like, wow, you know what we're going through. But here's what helps me, and it doesn't, you know, it takes time, maturity to kind of come to peace with this.
But in order to keep myself sane in the midst of this on all levels, I just try to wonder what's going on in the mind of the person who can go there, right? And when I think about women attacking women, it is always rooted in the insecurity and lack of self-esteem that is rampant in our culture. Like we're set up to feel badly about ourselves, right?
And then to turn against ourselves and then to turn on each other. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there. So I try to humanize my victimizer and say, something happened to you. something is tearing away and it doesn't have to do with me. I might have been the closest, easiest target for you at the time, but let me, so that I can stay sane and wake up and show up well,
with people because as first lady, that's ultimately my job. I mean, I couldn't let something break me to the point where I got so cynical and despondent about the whole of this country. To me, it's my job to believe in America, to believe in our utter deep goodness because that is true.
That is the, you know, and when people go astray, it's because of something that happened to them, a brokenness. And that helps me right size my feelings.
I agree with you because I think especially with therapy and, you know, We have psychology, right? We know through psychology that women that are attacking other women, it's like there is an insecurity. There is a pain. And a lot of times I think online, especially the conversation does stop there, though, of, oh, she's just jealous or she's insecure. She's going through something.
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Chapter 4: What is the significance of women holding leadership roles?
And the more you practice it, the more you you recognize it quicker. You know, and so for me, I think I choose well, first of all. And so it starts there. And again, that takes practice. You learn that over time, you learn yourself. And once my friends are in, in my journey, we're all going together, you know? I mean, it's just, it's not, it's never just my journey.
It's like, you're coming, you know, let's do this, you know? I had to do that really proactively as first lady because we lived in this bubble. And if I wasn't proactive about maintaining my relationships with my friends, everybody could have easily slipped away. You didn't have my phone number. You can't walk up to my door. and just, girl, what you up to?
It's like, nope, you got to go through eight rounds of security, you know, hand in your social security card. You got to, you know, you get, you get a whole to do audit. You know, it's like, hey, you're a high maintenance friend, Michelle. I would understand. It's like, you know what? I give up. So, you know, it's a good point. So that's why I said even making friends as first lady, I didn't like,
write that off i was like i'm gonna have to really extend myself for a new mother to be like okay sasha's coming over for a sleepover we're gonna need to know your social security number we're gonna there's gonna be a sweep of your home they're gonna find out they're gonna want to know about whether you have guns in the house or drugs they won't take them from you but they need to know there will be men standing up so what time do you want to come by a great
They're like, I don't know anymore. You know, that kind of helps you. It's like, okay, you ready? You ready? You ready? Let's go. So I just, for me... I just, I take my friends with me as much as possible. So you're coming with me. We're doing, you know, we're doing bootcamps, you know, once a quarter. We're going on trips. We're planning the mother-daughter ski trip.
And a lot of times I would take the lead because you, you know, you can't schedule me.
Right.
So realizing those limitations. And I think when you're all kind of, even if people aren't rising or doing the same thing, I found that if my friends feel like I see them And I'm like, I want you on my journey. And we're all gonna enjoy this together. It's not me and you. I found that that's the way I've kept this sort of, am I the friend to be jealous of?
It's like, we're all going up this mountain together.
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Chapter 5: How did Michelle Obama navigate public scrutiny during her time as First Lady?
All you need is your phone, some apps, and success. And what I'm saying is, no, you need friends. And you have to work on that. That means you have to be a good friend. That means you have to put down your stuff and prioritize your friendships if you want to have them.
Let's talk about that. Yeah. there's so much pressure on women to present as perfect, right? And then get validated for it. And especially you just said on social media, but you think back in the day, Two magazines come out a month and it doesn't mean that there's not, you know, scrutinizing and comparing and everyone looking at it, but it's endless now. It is 24-7.
Every day, all day.
All day. The Photoshop's an airbrush and we're curating and we're carefully, you know, designing how we want people to think about us. Can you talk a little bit to perfection and how so many women and girls feel like they need to reach this unattainable goal? Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I'm generationally kind of, it's the experience that young women, girls are having now, it is foreign to me. I didn't, I'm gonna be 62. I'm an old lady. I'm like my grandmother, right? That's how I'm counting the days and going, you know what?
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Chapter 6: How does Michelle Obama define 'going high' in challenging situations?
When I thought my grandmother was old, she was my age, right? Stop, Michelle. No. But as fast as things have changed, we are in the midst of a major...
uh industrial revolution it was it's like the creation of electricity right the tv like this is new right and i'm of the old guard right so i don't i don't have the habit i'm not hooked on it like i'm still picking up a book i'm still calling a friend right i don't even know why you would want to be lonely like why are you alone it's like don't do that you know sounds so good when you say
Go to the coffee shop. Don't order the thing in. Just get out. Go to the gym. Just because you can be by yourself, don't do it. So that it is foreign to me, the... the pressure that you guys feel. But I get it. I get it. What I want to tell people, young women, is get off the phone. I really do. It's like, It's a habit. It's not a need. And I'm not saying get rid of it.
I'm just saying you've got to get off of the phone and start investing in your in real life stuff and experiences. But can we go as far to say like it's an addiction? Yes. Think about this.
It's intended to be an addiction. No generation prior to this had... four-year-olds being addicted to something, five-year-olds, six-year-olds, 10-year-olds. We have addiction right now that we cannot stop.
I am hoping, Alex, that the learning curve is gonna be quick, right? because we didn't know, right? This is so new. And now we're starting to get the statistics in on depression. This is real. The dip and the rise in depression is directly connected and linked to the creation and rise of social media. And I'm hoping that the society, parents will start
understanding that this isn't just a free-for-all thing. There are great things about it, but there are a lot of problems with it. So we have to stop. We have to start regulating.
Well, we have to start regulating also because I've interfaced with some young kids and I'll be like, why do you want to have this phone over this phone? Or why do you not want to take your phone and put it away for a while? And they're like, because if I don't see it, then I go to school tomorrow and
And I am the only person in the class that is not aware of what the entire rest of the class was talking about. So then there's like a bullying element and there's an alienization that's happening where you're like, I don't want to be the only kid that's not clued in and tapped in. So then it cannot be one kid trying to lead the pack.
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Chapter 7: How can society better support women in achieving equality?
You're testing it. And so I think the social connection of young mothers or young parents struggling, that's a cool thing. But guess who has some real wisdom around I tried this and it failed. But where are those bloggers? Where are those conversations happening? And where are young women just coming to ask, to say, well, let me sit down with my moms and my aunts?
It's such a good point, Michelle.
But then again, I think because of the competition and the misogyny and how warped our brains are, I see women in the comment section saying, aren't you too old to be doing that? Aren't you too old to be doing this? And so, but again, it's all projection. It's the fear of getting older.
It's like, how can the absence or the presence of wrinkles on my forehead dictate the words that are coming out of my mouth and how much you actually respect them or don't respect them? And so aging for women, it's this fear when really, again, like you said, for men, it's like, we're washed up, they're wise. Mm-hmm. It gives them integrity. We're irrelevant.
And so there's this push and pull that I think at some point you're right. Women have to look inward and start to say, why am I not tapping into this older generation who is looking down being like the hands out? We got you.
And I think those are great conversations for young women to have with one another. Right. Because I think I haven't met an older woman that isn't. like you want to know, you're asking? Yes. Sit down. Let's talk. I don't want you to fail. I want you to be better than me because now I really am not competing. Like all that stuff that was going on, we learned it didn't help.
It just messed up a lot of stuff. So now we can really look at that generation. At least I know I'm in that place. No, it's a great point. Like it's... The favorite thing I have to do, which is impart something that I learned to somebody younger.
That's why, speaking of you have this wisdom, you have talked about the gender gap when it comes to confidence. As women, we are often doubted and underestimated by others and ourselves. We struggle with imposter syndrome while men walk around with what you call unearned confidence.
As someone who has been such a symbol of strength for women around the world, when did you doubt yourself the most and how did you get through those periods?
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Chapter 8: What advice does Michelle Obama give for building confidence in young women?
And then, so I don't want people to be intimidated by like, this is what life is. We were ever growing, evolving, improving. There isn't like a finish line where you get an A and you're now a whole person perfectly. I'm 62, it doesn't happen. My mother was 86 when she died and there were parts of her that she was still... building upon. And so it's not in your eighties.
You know, I had a great conversation with Jane Fonda and Bethann Hardison on my podcast about aging in the public eye. They're still having those conversations with themselves about evolving. And I think that that is the power that we have as women is that we know we have to keep evolving. And so we do. A lot of men don't They don't. It's so true. They're just like here and proud of it. Right.
Because I've worn these same pants for 20... It's like, don't say that. Like, that's not cool.
It's not impressive.
It's not impressive. Not impressive. No, it's so inspiring the way that you are speaking about this because... I remember I was so fortunate I got to interview Jane Goodall. And she talked a lot about how she was still pushing and she was still going because she still wanted to learn. And I think having an appetite to learn means you want to change and you want to evolve and you want to grow.
And I agree with you. The power of the system works. Basically fucking us being like, you're not enough and you need to be this. It does force us to constantly have our head on a swivel. So in a beautiful way, you have to find the positives. We're forced to be so multifaceted and we're forced to know. who we are in so many different lanes.
And we're also forced at every age, 18, 21, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80. We have to constantly be thinking how we're evolving because society is forcing us to do that. But if we can use it to our advantage, that's when you become unstoppable.
And we can give ourself grace in the process. Because in the end, I think we're all just too hard on ourselves. that it starts there, right? And so you're your first fan. And if your first fan is like, you're just kicking your ass. Like, of course you're mad and bitchy and want to beat the other woman. Of course that you're competitive within yourself.
And so that's where it splatters out onto everything else. And I think that women, we need to be kinder to ourselves, really gentler. Yeah.
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