Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is an iHeart Podcast.
Guaranteed human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing day 17. How did this guy, seemingly amateurish, yanking up foliage to put over the door cam, wearing a gun, polyester gun holster hanging down around his crotch, how has this guy managed to elude law enforcement, including the FBI. Is Nancy Guthrie still alive? If so, what is she enduring?
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.
Chapter 2: What updates are available on the search for Nancy Guthrie?
It's been two weeks since our mom was taken.
We still have hope. We still believe. To whoever has her or knows where she is, it's never too late.
As we go to air tonight, a blue fly technology, a very sophisticated technology to detect low frequency Bluetooth waves is being used, hopefully to find some evidence of Nancy Guthrie's heart monitor, her pacemaker. This as reports of the match to the single glove found as we hear DNA will link. to the DNA found in the home? How do they know that? Is that inaccurate? Is that overstating?
Again, with me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning now. To Dave Mack, joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Dave Mack, tell me about the blue fly technology.
This is amazing technology, Nancy, that focuses in on Bluetooth identity electronics, okay? It flies on a drone about 600, it can pick up the Bluetooth signal or a Wi-Fi signal from over two football fields away, about 665 feet.
Well, hold on, hold on. Did you say two football fields away?
Yes.
I didn't understand that. That is significant. Hold on. Hold on, Dave Mack. Brian Fitzgibbons is joining us, Director of Operations, USPA, Nationwide Security, leading a team of investigators around the world to find missing people. Also, former Marine and Iraqi war vet. Fitz, thank you for being with us tonight. Now, hold on. Two football fields away. That is news to me. Tell me how that works.
Yeah, so we've actually learned in recent days and fellow former Marine Dave Kennedy and cybersecurity expert has posted and shared this publicly that he's created an integration with an amplifier, a larger antenna, basically that gives the sniffer a bigger nose. So when these Bluetooth low energy signals are typically only read at 25 to 30 feet.
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Chapter 3: How is blue fly technology being utilized in the investigation?
Guys, our friends from Fox News shared this with us. We're looking for the blue fly technology. And yeah, I think you're right, Fitz. I think you're absolutely correct. So let's see what it actually looks like, what the device looks like. Now, what you're seeing right now, we believe drones were then used.
Drones were used, it's my understanding, Dave Mack, yes, no, was the blue flight then attached to drones so they could get lower to the ground?
Yeah, at first they were using helicopters, flying grid patterns, then they switched to drones after four days.
Okay, back to Brian Fitzgibbons. So, wow, Dave, they've been doing this now for at least five days. Okay, Brian, if you could very slowly educate us on the blue fly technology again. It's been around for a while. but you don't hear it openly discussed. The FBI had to bring this in. I do not think local law enforcement nanos had it.
So again, very slowly for us, many people just are learning about it. Tell me again.
Yeah, so this technology began as a pretty high-end defense technology. And then they found with it a search and rescue application quite some time ago. And then they began to use it in search and rescue scenarios, missing hikers, skiers, things like that, that they believed had devices.
It started how? It started how?
So this was originally a cyber security tech used in the defense industry to find and locate any surreptitious devices that were emitting radio frequencies in or near. Such as what? This would be foreign national governments trying to listen in or capture information in or around Department of Defense or intelligence facilities. And this tech would sniff that out.
Put them up, put them up, put them up, put them up. I need to look at you while you're saying this. Okay, I knew about Blue Fly, but I didn't know that.
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of the DNA findings in this case?
Okay. It started with cybersecurity tech used in the defense industry to find surreptitious devices such as those used by foreign national governments trying to listen in. Is that what you just said?
Yeah, so there could be any number of things that these devices that are not allowed to be there could be doing. And that technology, they found a greater application or new application for it in the search and rescue space that they could apply that same methodology in the same use case to go out and find devices associated with missing persons.
And that's where you've seen this tech implemented kind of in the mainstream is in search and rescue applications.
Such as?
You know, you have the missing hiker, missing skier, missing persons that have devices on them. This is not the first time that this has been used. I think what's novel here is, you know, what I had spoken about that cybersecurity expert Dave Kennedy has found is the ability to amplify that to increase the range. That's the breakthrough here with Nancy's case.
What kind of devices would a hiker or a skier have on them that the blue fly could pick up?
So this could be anything like an AirTag, Bluetooth headphones, any type of hearing aid, pacemaker, a cell phone certainly, if the battery life were still on. It's any type of device on the periphery that's connecting with a computer, with a medical device, anything like that.
Wow, that was a lot of information. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, Brian Fitzgibbon is joining us, Director of Operations, USPA Nationwide Security. Now, explain to me, If the blue fly can work, as I'm learning now, over two football fields in length, why did they decide to put it on a drone and fly it low to the ground? Just better chances of picking something up?
Yeah, and they can amplify the search, right? There are only so many helicopters available. You obviously have fuel costs and things like that, maintenance that has to happen. So putting it up on drones is going to magnify the number of beacons on that network looking for Nancy's pacemaker. And one thing I will mention is that they're able to zero in on Nancy's pacemaker.
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Chapter 5: How does the FBI plan to identify potential suspects?
And so certainly what defense would do in court is say, hey, the principles behind this are not reasonably reliable. They have not been tested enough for this to be admitted into evidence at what could be a very high profile criminal trial.
Well, of course, Eric, it has been tested in the military sector. I mean, Brian Fitzgibbons, how long has blue fly been used in the military sector anyway?
That's not clear, but I would say that this type of signals intelligence has been used for quite some time. The military and intelligence apparatus has certainly been concerned for more than a couple decades on finding devices that shouldn't be in and around their facilities.
So, Faddis, even though this type of technology has been around, as he says, for about two decades that we know of, What you're referring to, I believe, is acceptance in court and acceptance by appellate courts, like DNA was accepted. Yes, DNA had been used since in war, I guess going back all the way to at least the Korean War, and you get an immediate field test answer on DNA.
That said, it wasn't accepted in criminal trials until many, many more years later. So you've got to have it accepted in court. It may be a landmark case for all we know if this ever goes to trial, allowing Bluefly to signal sniffer technology in. It will get in. There's no question about it. You'll bring in a couple of Secret Service guys and they'll explain it to the court and it will come in.
It's just an evidentiary hurdle you have to go through. I want to go back to what's happening now in the Nancy Guthrie search. It's amazing to me, absolutely amazing to me, to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, in addition to Dave Mack from Crime Stories and Eric Faddis, trial lawyer.
Joseph Scott Morgan is professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University that has an incredible criminal evidentiary program. He is a death investigator with over 10,000 death scene investigations under his belt. He's the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. And he's a star of a hit new podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.
Joseph Scott, look at this guy on the front porch for the five millionth time. I just keep looking at it and looking at it and slowing it and stopping it and looking at it. How in the hay has this guy and his cronies, let's see the video, managed to outsmart the feds? Granted, Nanos was a speed bump to the feds getting involved, although he denies it.
But that said, I don't know how this guy, and you know, water seeks its own level. Birds of a feather, all that. You know his cronies are no different than him. Although somebody, if that ransom note is connected to him, does have a little bit of smarts. How the hay has this guy managed to outsmart a fleet of law enforcement? I don't get it, Joe Scott. Is it just the perfect storm aligning?
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Chapter 6: What are the latest ransom demands regarding Nancy's case?
It's a magnetic lift that we do at crime scenes where you can actually get a footprint pattern off of this.
Chapter 7: What is the significance of the latest missive sent to TMZ?
They would have been searching for that. hopefully in the event that they didn't go in and willy-nilly screw up anything in there when they're walking through the house. Because initially when you work a so-called kidnapping or missing persons case, it's frenetic. You walk in, you're not treating it necessarily like a crime scene like we would with a homicide scene.
You're going closet to closet, you're clearing the house, you're looking through, you're trying to look under beds, all that sort of stuff. And just trying to assess the scene to see if you can find her anywhere in there. Then you have to back out at that point in time and lock it down. Again, I know I'm preaching to the choir here.
Another problem that I have is the fact that they didn't lock it down. They keep it locked down. You see what I'm saying? And that's problematic for me.
I wanted to come on and talk. It's been two weeks since our mom was taken, and I just wanted to come on and say that we still have hope, and we still believe.
Savannah Guthrie, beaten down, exhausted, begging them, it's not too late. to do the right thing. What more do we know about the search for Nancy Guthrie? Is she alive? What is she enduring? How is she living? All these thoughts must be colliding in the brains of her three children every minute of every day. Straight out to an all-star panel making sense of what we know.
I want to talk about the other developments. First of all, Dave Mack, I understand that the FBI is going from gun store to gun store to gun store. They were doing it last night, and they're doing it tonight. And they're showing a list of about 40 people, we've been told, and 40 photos, corresponding photos, and asking questions of the gun shop owners. What do you know?
That's what we're finding out is they've got a list of 40 people with pictures and they're just canvassing. They're going door to door to every gun store in the area and they're showing the pictures. They're showing the names. Do you know this person? That's part. And then the second part is, Have you guys sold anything like this to this individual? Now, showing up with 40 people, that's a lot.
However, gun store owners tend to deal a lot with the same people. Gun people visit gun stores. So this might actually stick out because what we're seeing, especially with the holster not being a high-quality holster, the individual might be somebody that stood out to one of these shop owners. So they've got pictures, they've got names. Stores can run names.
Gun shops have more control than most on when they sell products, getting information from the buyer. So they've got an opportunity to actually narrow down that list. 40 people, 40 names, that's a lot to start with, but you can narrow it down fairly quickly.
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