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Chapter 1: What events led to the double murder committed by Frank McCann?
Frank McCann murdered his wife, Esther, and her daughter, Jessica, on the 4th of September, 1992. The moment Marian Leonard heard the news that her sister and niece had perished in a house fire, she suspected that McCann had somehow been involved. McCann received two life sentences in 1996.
In recent weeks, Marian has once again had to meet with the parole board to ask them not to release McCann. Today, I'm talking to Marian Leonard to ask her why it's so important to her that McCann stays behind bars. I'm Jenny Friel, and this is Crime World, a podcast from crimeworld.com.
Chapter 2: How did Marian Leonard become involved with the parole board process?
Marian, this is the seventh time that you're dealing with the parole board now in respect to Frank McCann. Can you tell us a little bit of how that works now?
Well, Jenny, officially, this is the second time because it's only the second time that we've met a parole board. It's only since the new statutory parole board came into being. So prior to meeting with them this time in May and the previous time in 22, we would have sent submissions in.
Okay.
They went in. You didn't get any feedback other than waiting for the response to what the decision was of the board. It was very anonymous with no interactions. You just got basically the response.
Okay.
It was quite cold for something that was very emotive and emotional.
Yeah.
So... In 22, we met the parole board, two members of the parole board for the first time. And the submissions would be made as usual. And then when you go, you meet the two members. It's done very nicely by the Department of Justice with a lovely admin team, really kind admin team.
um it's daunting it's traumatic it's everything yeah but it's not particularly the board that's causing the trauma it's the trauma that the history yeah so this time we went in in in the 16th of may and um Met two members. They'd had the submissions. My son and my daughter came with me as well. Okay. And we now wait. We are the first, the victims are the first to meet the board members.
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Chapter 3: What is the emotional impact of facing the parole board for victims' families?
And I have to say, they were just... They were so open and they were so receptive. There was no closing us down. There was nothing confrontational. The first time I did feel it was like we were going through the trial nearly again.
I was going to say, it's the ultimate trigger, isn't it? Really kind of like having to go through this process because you have to go back through every detail, everything that you felt because you're trying to describe to other people how this has had such an enormous effect on you and your family.
And the continuing impact and the impact. I mean, he's out on temporary release quite a lot. And it seems to be very loose. So the impact of family members walking into him, as my nephew did in the IOLAC Centre when he was in at a meeting.
The IOLAC Centre is here in Dublin City Centre.
Yeah, in City Centre. He goes to the library there apparently.
Yeah.
And the fact that he meets with murderers in the IOLAC Centre. And... Yeah.
Yeah.
They have access, obviously, to internet. Okay. And he's pretty expert on it, so you wouldn't know where he's reaching out to.
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Chapter 4: What attempts did Frank McCann make to harm his wife before the murders?
Okay. And Esther came up to Dublin and she met, to go to college, you were telling me earlier on. She met Frank when? Yeah.
Oh, not until 86. 86.
Yeah.
So, I mean, Esther had had relationships and jobs and a good career. And her partner at the time had wanted her to go to
Australia with him okay this is the partner just Paul just prior to when she met Frank McCann and Esther made the decision no it was too far away okay she was too involved with my kids with my brother Pat's kids and family meant so much to her that it was too far away basically okay and that was the hard decision to make so then Frank through a mutual friend more or less moved in on her courted her
She was an attractive lady. The pictures are gorgeous. Very beautiful. And very vivacious.
Very outgoing. Just loved people. Was very easy with people. And didn't have, it didn't matter who or what you were. She had no hang-ups on people. She just accepted everybody at face value.
Which kind of leads me on to Frank, because you weren't pushed about him, you've told us.
No, I wasn't pushed about him. I mean, in a way, I did like the fact that Esther wanted to settle down and that they'd be near. And Frank's family are from Taranior, which is only down the road. So there was all those kind of... having gotten over the relief of her not going to Australia. Yeah. Much as, you know, I didn't want her to go, but I was trying not to say that. Okay.
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Chapter 5: What were the circumstances surrounding the house fire on September 4, 1992?
He seemed caring. And certainly from the outset, Jenny, he could do anything. I mean, he could do anything with his hands. He could come in and fix things in our house when I really didn't have anybody around who could fix things. And he was very obliging. He turned up with flowers the first time I met him. Right. Some kind of smart comments and like myself and Esther didn't look alike.
But he was very flattering towards the family. It was just, yeah.
Yeah.
But there was, He didn't have a warmth. He didn't have the warmth that basically anybody asked to brought home.
Okay.
You just wouldn't want them to leave. I mean, you know, no matter who they were.
And they got married and they struggled to have children.
They struggled to have children. They got married in May. And Frank McCann had a child in August with a little girl from the swimming association.
That's right. We were going to come on to that.
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Chapter 6: How did the investigation into McCann's actions unfold after the fire?
Oh.
Was our next thought.
So she spoke to you about this and obviously confided in you a lot.
Well, we did talk about everything. Okay, sisters sometimes do, don't they? Yeah, just everything. Every surface was scratched.
So he, but they ended up very beautifully kind of trying to adopt or kind of fostering. It was Jessica, who was Frank McCann's niece.
Yes, well, Jeanette, Frank's youngest sister, became pregnant when she was in school. And Esther supported her, took her into the house, was there when Jessica was born and looked after Jeanette really beautifully.
Yeah.
And they had a very nice relationship. And Esther expected that Jeanette would just come home with the baby to them and she'd be in the house. But Jeanette made the decision that she wanted to go back to school. She was not prepared to rear a child. Okay. So she asked Esther and Frank to adopt her.
And which is lovely, really. But this is what basically triggered the chain of events.
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Chapter 7: What were the outcomes of Frank McCann's trials and sentencing?
And they said if he didn't tell Esther, they would. So he was running out of time.
And because his reputation was hugely important to him. He had a couple of big roles, didn't he, in Irish swimming? He was a former champion swimmer and turned coach.
President and Leinster.
Leinster, supposedly, yeah.
He went to Barcelona, he travelled with him. He had a big ego.
Okay.
And status meant an awful lot to him.
Right.
And unfortunately for him, status meant nothing to Esther. So she didn't do the... what she called the sucking up to the Derry O'Rourkes, George Gibneys, the people that we now know the names of.
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Chapter 8: Why does Marian Leonard believe Frank McCann should remain in prison?
And they'd become part of our lives. But the joke was, oh my gosh, one of my friends said, did Esther get a Romanian baby? Because Jessica was there. So where did you hear that? Yeah, yeah. Picturing that Esther had gone to Romania to rescue a child.
Okay. So no, but Jessica was part of the family.
Okay.
So in the background then, Frank is panicking. He is literally panicking. And it's interesting that you mentioned how he was a bit of a genius around the house, the DIY and everything, because his attempts at killing Esther were crazily intense. intricate, weren't they? And hands-on. And hands-on.
One of the first ones he did, there were gas leaks and in July 1992, there was an explosion at the house, but they found that the pipe had been deliberately cut broken. There was an electric blanket that went on fire. The brake fluid in her car brakes went as well.
And we know now that these were all attempts made in the run-up to when he was actually successful, which was on the 4th of September in 1992. And that was a house fire.
that was the house there and the speaking to the gas or people after the gas leak I know someone that Esther knew in the gas board actually said that if the house had gone up at that time the neighbourhood could have gone there was so much gas in the house
So he really went for it.
He really did.
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