Show notes
In this episode of the Cults and the Culting of America podcast, hosts Scot Loyd and Daniella Mestyanek Young dive into the concept of the "sacred assumption," a core belief that underpins a cult's worldview. Daniella explains how cult leaders create and manipulate these worldviews to control their followers, emphasizing that these assumptions don't have to be religious but can revolve around power, status, or other ideals. The discussion touches on the similarities and differences between cults and religions, the manipulation tactics used by cult leaders, and the challenges of deconstructing these beliefs after leaving a cult. Daniella also shares personal anecdotes about her experiences with the Children of God cult and the US Army, highlighting the parallels between different high-control groups. Scot and Daniella discuss the ongoing process of deconstruction, the importance of questioning sacred assumptions, and the impact of privilege and societal constructs on our beliefs. They emphasize the need for skepticism and self-defined values, contrasting this with the often rigid and manipulative frameworks of cults. The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to engage with Daniella's work, including her book Uncultured and her Patreon project UnAmerican. Daniella Mestyanek Young's book: · From Bookshop.org Uncultured Autograph: Connect with Daniella on social media TikTok, Patreon, Instagram Youtube Connect with Scot Loyd's social media (TikTok) Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women **Cults and the Culting of America Podcast** Welcome to the Cults and the Culting of America podcast with scholar of cults, extreme groups, and extremely bad leadership, Daniella Mestyanek Young. I'm your host, Scot Loyd. Welcome to another episode of Cults and the Culting of America. I'm Scot Loyd, along with my friend Daniella Mestyanek Young. Not only is she my friend, but she is a scholar of cults, extreme groups, and extremely bad leadership. Daniella, how are you doing today? **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** I am doing great. I am excited for us to talk about the worldview shift into the transcendent mission and the most common question anyone gets asked about cults, which is: what is the difference between a cult and a religion? **Scot Loyd:** Very nicely said. I'm looking forward to this episode. And you're wearing an interesting shirt today. Tell us about that shirt, and if folks want to buy one for themselves or their friends and family, how can they do that? **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Yes, you can find any of the shirts you see me wearing through the links below. I sell them through my social media channels. This shirt says, "The first rule of cults is you're never in a cult," which is the epigraph of my book, *Uncultured*. It's about growing up in the Children of God and joining the US Army. It's also a play on *Fight Club*, which a lot of people don't realize is kind of the cult movie. It really gets to the idea that nobody thinks they're in a cult. Cults are manipulative cons that target people, lie, deflect, and pull you into their worldview. As soon as you realize you're in a cult, you're on your way out. But many people think cults are extreme and rare, when in fact, they're incredibly common. A lot of my life's work is pointing out these parallels and helping people understand the groups and systems we're in. **Scot Loyd:** And we're going down the list of characteristics of a cult that you have identified and authored. Today we arrive at the idea of worldview, or as you call it, the sacred assumption. What do you mean by sacred assumption, and why is it a leading characteristic of a cult? **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Oh my gosh, this one is so dramatic. I mean, literally, I was in bed and I sat up and just yelled out, "Hold nothing sacred." It was the answer to the question I'd been asked for 15 years: Why would anyone join a cult? How can people fall for such extremism? Growing up in the Children of God, which was a pedophile cult, it was perfectly understandable how it happened, but difficult to explain to outsiders. First, let me bring this back to that common question: what is the difference between a cult and a religion? This ties into worldview. People ask this all the time, and I say they're not even the same type of thing. A religion is an idea, a noun. A cult is a group. You need a group, even if it's just two people. One of the most pernicious stereotypes is that cults are religious. Every day I see people saying, "Nah, not a cult, because we're not religious." Part of why NXIVM fooled so many people is because it wasn't religious. Large group awareness training, like est or anything ending in "-ony," aren't religious but can still be cults. A cult doesn't give you a religion; it gives you a worldview. The leader spends decades forming this worldview, and to be a member, you must adopt it. It's not presented that way, but it becomes clear once you're in it. The entire worldview is upheld by the sacred assumption. In the Children of God, it was that this random white dude who failed at everything was the prophet of God. As long as you believe that, you can justify anything. The sacred assumption ties closely to the "ends justify the means" mentality and sometimes even precipitates an apocalyptic mindset. **Scot Loyd:** The sacred assumption doesn't necessarily have to be theological in nature. It could be anything related to life, like pursuing wealth, status, or power. That's what a lot of these groups offer – a world change, a fulfilling life, or a flourishing existence. **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Right. In NXIVM, the sacred assumption was that Keith Raniere was the smartest man on earth. In the US Army, the sacred assumption is that the US flag is worth dying for. You must believe that to be successful in the Army. So, it doesn't have to be religious. It's a worldview. I've recently realized all cults and cult leaders promise "space travel," meaning ultimate enlightenment or achievement will be on another plane, another existence, another life, a different heavenly body – something that can't be proven. This keeps people from achieving enlightenment because if it were real, they'd leave. It's a crucial part of the con and makes it hard to crack people's brainwashing. As long as you choose to believe the sacred assumption, you can justify anything. **Scot Loyd:** When you talk about this sacred assumption or worldview, it reminds me of Aristotle's idea that to be persuasive, you need parts of your message that are familiar and parts that are novel. If it's all novelty, people are likely to reject it. But if there's something familiar at the core, it resonates with people. Cult leaders leverage these familiar sacred assumptions that people are already familiar with to control their thoughts and behavior. **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Yes, and I think this is exactly what Taylor Swift means when she says, "You know how to ball, I know Aristotle." She's dropping lines because she knows how to pull emotional strings. Cult leaders know how to manipulate you by leveraging these familiar concepts. I don't agree with the stereotype that cult leaders start off good and then turn bad. Cult leaders don't trip and fall into coercive control. They've been figuring this out for a long time. For example, Jim Jones was studying how to manipulate people with preacher voice from a young age. He never cared about civil rights; it was just his way to stand out. This is why religion is often used – it's a pre-existing worldview with a giant body of literature and concepts that a cult leader can tweak and spin to fit their agenda. They use these frameworks to radicalize people. Religions have thought-stopping clichés built in, where at some point, logic ceases, and you go forward on faith. Nefarious leaders who have been honing their manipulative skills know how to use that. **Scot Loyd:** Right. And the thought-stopping cliché is, "God told me to do this." When someone plays that card, how do you come back from it? You don't. There's nothing you can say if they claim to have heard from God. Cult leaders play on these collective questions we all have about origin, destiny, meaning, morality, and purpose. They offer answers with certainty, enthusiasm, and passion. The human dynamic often makes us fall in line and not question these sacred assumptions. **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Absolutely. And deconstruction tip, Scot, can you repeat that list? We need to make sure this is in the show notes. **Scot Loyd:** Sure. The list is origin (where did I come from?), destiny (where am I going?), meaning (what does it all mean?), morality (how do we treat one another?), and purpose (what should I do with my life?). **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** These are the huge questions you have to define for yourself when you leave a cult. You're rejecting a worldview. My three-part model of deconstruction is: first, wake up and physically and mentally leave the cult; second, spend about a decade understanding why you were in a cult and its impact on your personality and identity; and third, move forward with no models. It's overwhelming because you've lost your framework and have to answer these giant questions. This is why we're at risk of cult-hopping afterward, looking for another system with black-and-white rules. I fell into CrossFit and paleo for a while because I was looking for another system to live by. **Scot Loyd:** I've experienced that too. My deconstruction is still ongoing. I left the United Pentecostal Church in a slow fade. I went through stages of cult-hopping, embracing different theological perspectives, and coming to terms with the idea that I was exceptional. I had to realize that if I'm special, that's something I define for myself. Likely, I'm just like everyone else, trying to make it through life and determine what is good, how to treat one another, and how to get along. The sacred assumption regulates behavior, but we need autonomy over our lives. **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly, Scot. We build these stories to control behavior. Classic fairy tales were scary to keep children safe. The stories we tell ourselves are critical to how we act and operate. One thing to watch out for is groups with anti-gossip policies. Gossip helps us warn each other about bad actors. These stories and worldviews are crucial, and it's not as simple as discarding them. It takes a decade or more to build your own worldview after leaving a cult. We need to understand why we were in a cult and its impact on our identity before building our worldview. **Scot Loyd:** Yes, like you, I was born into the United Pentecostal Church and invested a large part of my life in it. Education was my way out. One of the most fascinating books I read early on was Foucault's *Discipline and Punish*, about the evolution of prisons. He opens with an assassin trying to kill King Louis XVI. The public execution made people rebel, so prisons were designed to regulate behavior. The panopticon's design, where prisoners think they're being watched 24/7, became a model for schools and hospitals. It's a beautiful analogy for high-control groups. The sacred assumption regulates behavior, dictating every aspect of life. **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Yes, and military deployment is like a prison sentence in many ways. Initially, it's nice not to have to handle daily tasks, but eventually, you crave autonomy. People want clarity, which cults provide during social confusion. Recording my audiobook made me realize culty things about myself 20 years after leaving the cult. I had to audition for the audiobook and was convinced only I could do it. When I got the offer, I was paralyzed with fear, needing professional validation. This made me realize I had been seeking a mentor to tell me what to do with my life, which isn't a mentor; it's a leader. **Scot Loyd:** Exactly, Daniella. I still seek validation and apologize for everything, a holdover from conditioning in the United Pentecostal Church. The sacred assumption gives us something to aspire to, standing in for the leader's gaze. It's terrifying to make decisions on your own, but we're all just trying to figure out how to live our one life. Your book, *Uncultured*, was your way of making your pain meaningful, helping others with their journeys. Realizing we're not as different or special as we think is a poignant part of deconstruction. **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Yes, and the realization that we're all in this together, without sacred assumptions keeping us apart, is crucial. Leaders proclaiming sacred assumptions discourage questions. Offering certainty in a volatile world is appealing but unrealistic. Sacred assumptions offer a selfish worldview, ignoring global perspectives. When you see an "us vs. them" mentality, question it. It's built into cult language, with groups claiming moral superiority. **Scot Loyd:** Absolutely. Cult leaders use familiar values and frameworks to radicalize people. Your Ten Commandments for good groups, like holding nothing sacred, counteract this. Values can be manipulated; it's the reporting you require that shows true values. For example, if safety is a company's stated value, but they focus on loss numbers, they're not prioritizing safety. **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly. And to preempt trolls who say, "not holding anything sacred" is my sacred assumption – approaching beliefs with skepticism is essential. I show this in *Uncultured* at a soldier's funeral, holding doubt that our side is 100% right. General McChrystal's book, *Leaders: Myth and Reality*, emphasizes that soldiers must admit they don't know for sure they're on the side of right. **Scot Loyd:** And this idea of binary thinking – right vs. wrong, good vs. bad – is problematic. Our lives are shaped by luck and circumstances. The arrogance of assuming we're right and others are wrong is staggering. Living humbly means recognizing the complexities and uncertainties of life. **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Yes, deconstruction is about becoming less narcissistic and more selfish in a healthy way. Recognizing privilege and the accident of birth is crucial. There's no meritocracy; success isn't guaranteed by doing everything right. Grasping sacred assumptions is a con. **Scot Loyd:** Well said, Daniella. On that note, we'll conclude this fascinating conversation. I encourage our listeners and viewers to pick up Daniella's book, *Uncultured*, read it, and share it with friends. If you like what you hear, leave us a rating, subscribe, and share the podcast. Thank you for tuning in. **Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Thank you, Scot. For more on extremism and related topics, check out my project *UnAmerican* on Patreon, where I share the manuscript and other content. Follow both Scot and me on TikTok for more conversations about cults. **Scot Loyd:** Thank you again for tuning in. We'll see you next time on Cults and the Culting of America. Follow Daniella on social media and subscribe to her Patreon for exclusive content. Pick up her book, *Uncultured*. Until next time, I'm Scot Loyd for Daniella Mestyanek Young on the next episode of Cults and the Culting of America.