Danny Jones Podcast
#279 - Psyops Expert: Inside the Mind of a Master Manipulator | Chase Hughes
Mon, 06 Jan 2025
Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Chase Hughes is a US Government brainwashing, interrogation & psyops expert. He trains military & intelligence agencies on human hacking, influence, persuasion, interrogation, and negotiation. SPONSORS https://ketone.com/dannyjones - Save 30% off your first subscription order & receive a free 6-pack https://shopmando.com - Use code DANNY for $5 off your starter pack. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off EPISODE LINKS https://nci.university/dannyjones Chase' YouTube channel: @chasehughesofficial https://www.instagram.com/chasehughesofficial FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Military psychological operations 06:08 - Milgram experiment 16:43 - MK-Ultra hypnotism playbook 26:22 - How to spot psyop 31:57 - Havana syndrome 44:19 - How to brainwash anybody in 5 steps 50:08 - Behavioral table of elements 01:01:21 - Using hypnotism in daily life 01:06:54 - How to stack a jury 01:12:50 - The FATE model 01:21:59 - Alice in Wonderland technique 01:29:25 - L Ron Hubbard's brain condition 01:38:28 - Methylene blue 01:46:58 - Mitochondria is not human 01:54:46 - Benefits of sunlight exposure 02:01:24 - Google's sinister history 02:09:37 - How to spot a psychopath 02:15:48 - Codes hidden in the DMT space 02:28:32 - High dose melatonin 02:39:59 - Bystander effect 02:45:28 - New Jersey drones a psyop? 02:56:49 - Benny Hinn mass exorcisms 03:09:29 - Placebo & the brain 03:16:11 - Blue Angles flight briefing 03:20:14 - Importance of checklists Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What are military psychological operations?
So why don't you just give yourself a brief introduction to your background so people know who you are if they don't already.
Yeah, my name is Chase Hughes. I did 20 years in the U.S. military, retired in 2019. Then did some behavioral stuff, wrote a few books that became bestsellers. And I have a YouTube channel where we break down people's behaviors and stuff. But most of my life I've been obsessed with how people are made to do things that are not in their best interest.
whether that is confessing to a crime in an interrogation or providing some kind of intelligence, or is it maybe getting talked into a cult or something like that? So that's always fascinated me from the standpoint of in interrogations, what can a person be made to do and how long does it take to get to the desired result?
And you are an expert in psychological warfare and psychological operations, right? Yeah. And what capacity have you worked for the government in this kind of realm?
So the first job that I ever had was literally just scraping rust off of the ship. So if anybody's out there right now and you're thinking about joining the Navy, don't let your recruiter tell you to go undesignated because it sounds good. They're like, oh, you can go in there and then you can pick whatever job you want. You're not designated. So I did that for like two and a half years.
And then 2001, a friend of mine got killed on the USS Cole. And this was the bombing that took place in the Gulf of Yemen on September 11th. And his name is Craig Weberly. And I read all these intelligence reports that said the agents didn't develop contacts well enough. We had all these failures that took place on the ground. And I had already been studying body language.
And I just got into body language because I was rejected by a girl when I was like 19. And I was stationed in Pearl Harbor. So we were down in Waikiki. And basically she just says, no, thank you. Like really mean, like right to my face. And it hurt. It was like a heart impact to me. And I went home that night and typed into Google how to tell when girls like you.
And I printed out this big ass stack of paper. And just the more I learned about reading human behavior, the more I could see like everybody is suffering. Everybody that you meet is insecure. And you start being able to see all these hidden insecurities. And just coming to that realization of everybody that you meet is hiding some kind of insecurity in some way.
And it didn't make me feel better than anybody else. It just made me feel like, oh, they're screwed up like I am. So I think I had social anxiety and that that kind of made behavior addictive to me because I could kind of see behind the curtain and it let me know that everybody else was kind of screwed up.
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Chapter 2: What insights can we gain from the Milgram experiment?
Chapter 3: How can we identify psychological operations?
And all these people would kind of like turn back to the guy in the lab coat like, you know, what do I do? And the guy in the lab coat almost every time would say something as simple as it's important that you continue or the experiment requires that you continue. So they keep going and keep going and keep going. They're up to like 300 volts now. And at around 350 volts –
Every sound in the room across the wall stops. No more sound. And they shock. And then he stops answering questions altogether. There's no response to these questions because he's pushing this little button that indicates like A, B, C, D. And you turn around to the guy in the lab coat again. The guy in the lab coat says, any non-answer must be treated as an incorrect answer. Please continue.
And they kept going. And they kept going, shocking what they assumed, which was an actor. The guy in the other room is an actor. But they assumed that this is a real person. They're suffering and maybe unconscious at this point. They wanted to stop. They asked to stop.
So before this experiment started, all these psychologists got together and they said, you know, how many people are going to go through with this? And they said 0.07%, I think was the answer. They said anybody that would go through with this is a psychopath and wants to hurt other human beings. So the experiment concluded 67% of people went all the way. All the way.
And 250 volts is enough to kill you based on amps. But 100% of people went up to 250 volts, 100%. And it's been replicated so many times. It's been over and over. People have replicated it in different environments and different changes. Some of the experiments, they physically made the participant hold the person's hand down on a metal plate that was shocking them.
And they went back and they said, this is a study of obedience to authority because this was during the Nuremberg trials going on. And all of the former Nazis saying, I was just following orders. I was just doing what I was told to do. So Dr. Milgram, his parents were Jewish. He does this experiment. Will people just do what they're told to do? And they thought that this was all about authority.
Right. So people are struggling right now all over the Internet. You can see stuff like sales training, like sales training mastery. Here's the influence mastery. If if I can in 40 minutes, I can talk a total stranger into committing murder. Wouldn't you think that that's harder than selling him a car? And those people in the Milgram experiment, there was no secret hypnotic technique.
They didn't inject them with some LSD or something before the thing happened. They didn't have some secret handshake or they'd touch them a certain way or hypnotize them. No techniques, no methods. It was just how responsive our mammalian part of our brain is to authority. But they missed one element of that, which we can talk about later.
But that's how incredible authority really is when it comes to influence and persuasion in human behavior. It's everything.
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Chapter 4: What is the Havana syndrome and its implications?
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I booked a flight, got a hotel, had all these forms filled out, walked in the front door, handed over my driver's license to sign in and all that stuff, and they said he's sick. He's not feeling well. He's sick. So I never got a chance to talk to him, but... If you just look at it in terms of am I selecting the right person to do this, it's a thousand times easier.
And you don't need some giant agency who's doing this. It's often not some agency. It's usually a group of people with a special interest. Interesting. So you don't need 50 years of hypnosis experience, even though there was most likely a hypnotist involved with Sirhan Sirhan. His name is Dr. Joyland West.
Oh, yeah. Jolly West.
Yeah.
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Chapter 5: How can you brainwash someone in five steps?
I'm familiar with him. I don't know if you're familiar with Tom O'Neill's book, Chaos.
I haven't read it.
It's riveting. He dives through all the background of the Manson murders. And he even interviews his probation officer and learns all about how Jolly West was tied to that free clinic in San Francisco. And Sidney Gottlieb and there was this free clinic and it was called the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic in San Francisco that he did his research on it and it was fully funded by the CIA.
And they were doing experiments with people with LSD and amphetamines. To see how that would affect people's brains and how you could control them. And, you know, that's interesting, too. This ties right into Charles Manson because, like.
Midnight Climax.
Yes. Yeah, that's. Yep. There was Operation Chaos and Midnight Climax that was going on at the same exact time.
And that was all under Sidney Gottlieb, who's the OSS director, I think, at that time. Was that his position? No. Was he? I think he was. He was the head of MKUltra.
I know that.
Yeah. But I think he ran that with, and Hoover was kind of sideways involved in that.
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Chapter 6: What is the behavioral table of elements?
You can put it in the show notes if you want to. But they had a plan to hypnotize. And Dr. Esther Brooks was a classic hypnotist. But he says, I could split someone's personality in such and such amount of time and make them do anything. I could make them forget who they know. And he says, I can do it to an army officer. Here's the step-by-step guide. I'll send you all of this.
Chapter 7: How can hypnotism be applied in daily life?
I'll even send you the step-by-step guide that he produced. Do you remember any of it? The steps? Yeah. Oh, easy. Yeah. What was it? Wait, let me finish this real quick. So the guy has this plan sent off to J. Edgar Hoover involving this other guy named Dr. Milton Erickson, who's like the grandfather of hypnotherapy. He's the reason that hypnotherapy is accepted by the American Medical Association.
So, and this other person, Margaret Mead, who is involved right now, and they have a plan to capture and hypnotize a German submarine captain. Give him a split personality. Send him back into his own harbor where he'll torpedo all of his own ships. And this was a legit plan that they were working on. They had all these steps laid out. So they've been doing this for a long time, a very long time.
So what are the steps of splitting somebody's personality? Steps are easy. So I'll give you the more advanced version because that was kind of rudimentary what they had back then. But I'll give you the documents to put in the PDF or whatever in the link down below. So our personalities are very fragile, right? And most people don't realize it.
And if you have an authority figure, you can split a personality. So let's imagine that I'm a psychiatrist or a psychologist and you come to me and you say, hey, I've been having this anxiety or I've been having a little feeling of depression or loneliness or something.
And I say, well, have you ever had an instance where one part of you wants to do one thing and the other part doesn't really do that? And everyone's, 100% of people are going to say yes to that. 100%. But you'll say, yeah, yeah, actually, yeah, when it comes to like cheesecake or something, I don't want to eat the cheesecake because I know it's going to make me fat, but I'll go eat the cheesecake.
We'll take it as a simple thing. And I'll say, all right, so what if that part of you had a name? What would the name of that part be? And you're like, oh, I don't know, Michael. You made up a name. All right, so what? Let's say let's go back and forth. Like, what does Michael want? OK, Michael wants this. But what is what is what does Danny want?
And then so I get you to have this dialogue about yourself in the third person, but you're not sure what camera angle you're looking at yourself from. Right. And if I ask you just a simple question, like, let me just ask you and answer this honestly. Like, if you picture, did you shower this morning or last night?
this uh last night so you just look up and to your left so you pictured yourself in the third person yeah why did you picture yourself in the third person who was observing you do you think that was michael so i start going down this path of doing this and then i say you know what i think the best way to clear this up is to give you the standard exam this is the standard psychological exam for multiple personality disorder and hold on whoa
So the exam I give you. You might think I'm lying to you because my hair is wet, but I jumped in the pool before I came here. So that's why my hair looks wet. I'm not lying. I'm sure you can tell if I'm lying.
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Chapter 8: What is the significance of the Alice in Wonderland technique?
So I give you this exam and it's totally made up. It doesn't even have to be an official document. And let's say it's got 10 or 12 questions on there. Do you feel like this sometimes? Do you feel like that sometimes? Do you feel like that sometimes? No matter what you score, I say, wow, you're in the 99th percentile. for having a multiple personality disorder.
And the best way that we can deal with this is to allow those parts of yourself to have a conversation with each other. So just a doctor misdiagnosing you creates a split. That's 30 minutes. That's not even the hypnosis yet. And then we get into hypnosis. And hypnosis is proven to work. Dr. David Spiegel at Stanford University is probably the premier researcher for hypnosis.
If I just get into the hypnosis part, I'm going to just essentially like I'm hammering a wedge down into a log to split that log apart. The hypnosis is just going to go in there and kind of push this wedge and allow those two beings to get further and further and further apart. Let's identify this person's personalities, their traits and their desires in life and what they want.
Wow.
So they, they actually use this for therapy. And a friend of mine, Dr. Richard Nongard, wrote a book. I think I wrote the foreword to that book, maybe. But it's called Excellence in Parts Work and Parts Therapy. And Dr. Fritz Perls did this. Virginia Satir did a lot of this stuff with gestalt therapy.
But it's just identifying these parts of yourself and getting familiar with what they want and what each one is, which is good.
Yeah.
But the moment you start getting into it and when I tell you it's pathological or when I tell you I'm going to – let's say if I was a hypnotist and I didn't have the psychiatric authority and stuff, I could say, you know what? What if you had a helper in your life who could do things for you? And I can install a helper inside your brain.
I could do a very good thing for you or I could make that helper do really bad stuff. So once we're designing that helper, we decide the morals and ethics and what that helper is willing to do under hypnosis. And this has been proven since the 40s and 50s. Oh, wow. It's pretty cool. It seems a lot easier than giving people drugs. It is. It is.
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Chapter 9: How does L. Ron Hubbard's brain condition relate to his teachings?
And in this book, I use something that's actually real. If you look at somebody who's been happy their whole life, you know, you can start seeing these little crow's feet because they smile a lot. You look at somebody who's socially driven, they raise their eyebrows a lot during conversations. You can see these little lines right here.
I always avoid those people.
Yeah. And like somebody who's angry or mad, you know, that you'll have these two little lines that start developing. And this is in the teenage years, you'll start seeing this and we call it expression etching because it etches onto the face after a pattern of behavior. But what would you do if I told you to make a skeptical facial expression? There it is.
So the lower eyelid tightens up right here. Do it one more time so you can get a good zoom in. There we go. So all these wrinkles form down right here. So if you see somebody with a wrinkled lower eyelid, and this is my opinion. I've not tested this scientifically at all. But I have confirmed it with like five hypnotists who have confirmed it with thousands and thousands of subjects.
Sounds scientific enough to me. I like it. And if you look at – it's even in this book. There's photos of it. And if you look at a person's face and they have super smooth lower eyelids down here, they're – in my mind, they're exponentially more likely to be a suggestible candidate for that thing.
and so the bad guy in this fictional book goes to these like comedy hypnosis shows where like you get people get called up on stage and it's like oh the person next to you farted and it smells really bad and that kind of thing but he will take the number one subject from the hypnosis show and then he doesn't know how to select the right person so he just goes to the hypnosis show and he picks the most suggestible person and then just follows him out to the parking lot so
I'm sure you can figure out a bunch of other characteristics or personality traits from somebody based on like different wrinkles that are etched into their face too, right? Like people that are always stressed or depressed have different.
Yeah. And I wouldn't say it's a hard science. I wouldn't say most things dealing with behavior and psychology are not a hard science, no matter how much people want it to be. It's just, it's like asking Roger Federer where he went to college for tennis and like, what were your credentials? Where are the studies that you did to win all the tournaments?
Yeah. When you see people in the news like this guy who just whacked that CEO, do you like do deep dives on them and like their background, try to figure out what their motivations were and try to do like a psychoanalysis of them?
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Chapter 10: What role do mitochondria play in human health?
And I mean, not just exiting the app, but like the modifications I'm making to the way that I see the world. Yeah.
It's great that you notice it.
Well, just like, I'll be in my office. I wake up at like four 30 in the morning. So it'd be like before sunrise. And I'm like hunched over my desk, like just doing this. And I can feel like, Oh my God, my brain's changing. Like something. And I, and I just get out. So I have like app timers on all those things now. Yeah.
Yeah. There's like threads on Twitter and comments on YouTube of people that believe that I'm a CIA funded plant. Yeah. Right. That runs a podcast to run CIA propaganda. Yeah. But at the same time, I believe shit like that about other things in the world. So that gives me a unique perspective. I'm like I'm like on both sides of the mirror. Yeah.
And I just published a video day before yesterday on on these drones that are happening right now. And like I just saw a few comments today, like a government plant on my computer. Yeah. On my channel. Right. So, and then somebody else says, it's a video talking about psyops. That is psyops. That is a psyops. So like, I'm trying to educate people on how to spot psyops. And that's also a psyops.
It's so deep. Yeah, man. So. I think there's a tendency for a lot of people to tie those – I always imagine those – like in the movies, the house of like the crazy schizophrenic who's got maps and photos all over the wall. Yeah, yeah, the always sunny guy. Yeah, yarn and stuff like that. Like I think those people have a tendency to just tie yarn as much as they can to everything that's going on.
And it's just like – Not every part. Granted, that stuff happens. Of course, that stuff happens. But I don't think every single thing that happens in the news is straight out of some Tom Clancy novel. Yeah. Where there's a million backstories to it.
Yeah. The video that you posted, I think it was yesterday about the drone. Yeah. The drone was fascinating. It's a new year and a new me. And that's why I'm starting out with Mando's whole body deodorant. Why? It's proven to stop Steve's cheese feet from disturbing our guests. And that's how you know you have a winner.
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Chapter 11: What are the benefits of sunlight exposure?
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It's linked below. Now back to the show. The way you laid it out. And like, I think the consensus is online now. I sent you that video that was from Twitter where the guy was from a private aerospace company saying that these are like, he said that they were aerospace contractor drones that were searching for a rogue nuke. I think he said that went missing in Ukraine or something. Yeah.
and somehow made its way, got smuggled into the US. So there's like a warhead somewhere they think in New Jersey and they have these drones that The reason they're flying at night is because they can detect this nuclear energy or gas or something that would be coming from this material.
Oh, because there's not a lot of gamma out in the air, I guess. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Anybody at home right now, we're two idiots talking about this. Yeah, of course.
Well, it does make sense that nobody would know about it, right? Like, if you really think about it, like, I'm sure there's a lot of senators and congressmen and, you know, off-the-cuff FBI agents who won't know what this is because I'm sure if this is something serious. So it's got to be super compartmented.
And if it is something like that, that they're looking for some sort of weapon, they got on the loose that's in, you know, New Jersey and they're trying to find out what the hell it is. And it's private aerospace that's figuring it out. They're not going to there's going to be tons of people that are in the government that have no fucking clue what it is.
So and it's I think there's. there's an element of PSYOP to a lot of stuff that's going on. If you look, I mean, it depends on how you define PSYOP. Like, is it a government funded thing? Because every commercial, if you watch an infomercial, that's a PSYOP. They're all just, let me find the target. Let me get them to do what I want them to do. But I think you had a guy on here.
I can't remember his name. Super smart guy talking about Havana syndrome.
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Chapter 12: How can we spot a psychopath?
Yeah, and Len was a victim of some of this stuff. And I published a paper from a science perspective a year or two ago on Havana syndrome. And I'll give you the PDF to throw in the show notes. But what I suggested in that paper was if I wanted to affect mass control, I only need to use a real weapon on 10 to 55, maybe 100 people.
And then the sound of that weapon gets replayed on the news, the cricket sound, over and over and over. And then it's so scary to a population and everyone's so familiar with the sound that I no longer need the weapon. I just need a speaker. So I can create what's called a psychogenic illness. And this is very common. So you can create, you've been trained for months and months and months.
You've been seeing all these people get injured by these weapons with brain damage and confusion, migraine headaches. You're trained to associate that sound with all of those symptoms because it's so much in the news cycle. So then at the final stage, you don't need the weapon anymore. You don't need to smuggle in some crazy weapon.
You can play the sound and get the symptoms, get the effects by just, wow.
Yeah. And you make it dissociating enough where the sound's pretty loud. You can use a device like an LRAD. The civilian can buy an LRAD, a long-range acoustic device. You can buy it online for like $3,500. Yeah.
I read that they used to test these weapons on sailors. on like Navy sailors that were based in Maryland, I think it was, when they were first developing these targeted weapons.
I've used LRAD many times, not for any weird psyops, but we have them on the bridge wing. So that top left photo right there, that is called the bridge wing. So that's on the, like where you control a ship. So you have like the bridge or the pilot house where the wheel is. And it's got two little outdoor sections right there. So on Navy ships, those will be on the bridge wing.
And that's kind of a we don't want to shoot somebody warning system. Right. And it's got a little aiming, like a little red dot sight. And you rotate that thing down. You can use it as kind of an early warning system to tell a boat that they need to turn around. Oh, wow. There's one being used by the Navy right there. Holy shit, dude.
But it is a long-range weapon, and you can almost not even hear it from behind it. It's so quiet. And the cone is so small. And this is probably 20—this photo is probably from 20, maybe 15 years ago. I can tell just by looking at the system and that he's wearing a flak jacket instead of steel plates.
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Chapter 13: What are the hidden codes in the DMT space?
Yeah, but that's an older system. Yeah. Now they have something called a sound laser that they use for the exact same thing. But this is, I mean, it's not some crazy technology. It's just I'm sending sound through a little laser aperture. Is that what that is right there?
New laser at McNary Dam is the latest technology for deterring what? Click on it. For deterring birds?
No. We did have laser guns that looked like an M4 that had a giant battery pack on them. And they were just kind of blinding lasers. So it would shoot out a bazillion little lights. I don't know how they work. I know how to use it. Right. But they called it a dazzler. But it wasn't very dazzling. I'm sure it did some permanent damage to people. Yeah.
Len, the guy was in here, he was... very very upset i mean he was not in a good place when i met him and we had dinner and stuff like that he was going through this stuff constantly all day long with these migraines and he had one like right before we started the show and he also said that when he went to that um I think it's an observatory.
There's a satellite or there's some sort of thing in West Virginia. Are you familiar with what I'm talking about? It's a West Virginia radio. It's a dead zone. It's a quiet zone, right? Where there's zero frequencies, zero EMFs, zero radio frequencies or anything like that because of the... Is it, what is it? Is it some sort of like a telescope that's there? Radio telescopes, yeah.
Can you find out what that thing is, what that zone is, the radio-free zone in West Virginia?
It's called the quiet zone.
Quiet zone, yeah, yeah. It's only a couple hours from my house. Oh, really? Yeah. So allegedly he said he can go there and all of his symptoms disappear. Wow.
I'd be curious. And Lynn, if you're watching this, I mean no offense at all. But I'd be curious to have somebody who's suffering those attacks. If we took them to a place that they 100% believed was a quiet zone, if the attacks would stop. If any element of that is somehow psychogenic, which doesn't discredit them at all. They're still experiencing the symptoms. Right.
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Chapter 14: What is the bystander effect?
That's another thing about him too, which I think lends a lot of credibility, is he didn't have some sort of like – military background or like he didn't work on it. He didn't have like an excuse of why he would have been targeted. He's like, I don't know. I'm just a fricking civilian.
I'm a, he was an endocrinologist and the USSR came here and, and all of a sudden it started, started experiencing these symptoms. You know what I mean? Like there's no, he's not trying, he wasn't trying to build some sort of credible backstory. Yeah.
I have no explanation for any of that stuff. So for anybody that's going through that, I'm so uneducated. So take what I just said and I'm just throwing it out there.
Voice of God, V2K is what Robert Duncan was saying that was. Voice to skull. Voice to skull, right. Steve, look that up. That's going to be... You're going to find a rabbit hole there.
And that was originally... They started that in the 1950s with Dr. Jorge Delgado, I think, at Harvard University. He put it inside of a bull's head, if I remember. That's been a long time. Yeah, this is what... Jack was talking about this on the podcast where they were trying to... He did it to a little girl, too, which doesn't get a lot of media.
And it was... She thought he was her dad, and they...
they did some interesting stuff that's probably unethical how it works the simplified diagram shows uh chang's speech prosthetic inaction what is this is this the voice to voice to skull yeah i wouldn't imagine a bunch of crazy books so with this stuff
I don't think I'm in any danger, but do you ever start looking at some of this and feel like I might fall off of like a schizophrenia cliff looking at some of this stuff?
No, I'm not. No, I don't think I'm too disposed to that. but it's definitely like fun. You know what I mean? Cause the, the thing about this kind of stuff is it seems it's, it's a double edged sword where it just, it seems so fucking crazy that like, you can't talk about this at dinner with anybody in your family, right? Anybody that won't, that's not, that doesn't listen to podcasts 24 seven.
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Chapter 15: Are New Jersey drones a psychological operation?
yeah so i had i had a mentor who was an intelligence guy psychiatrist but when i was like 20 something years old he was in his mid 70s but he one time told me something that scared the hell out of me and he said this hypothetically to me but he said if if we ever captured somebody and we want to completely discredit them
During the interview, interrogation, during whatever's happening, I'm going to have someone in a clown suit walk by and squirt water on them with a flower. I'm going to have a person dressed as a giraffe come in there and touch them on the head. I'm going to have the craziest stuff happen. mixing in with the sleep deprivation so that all of his testimony sounds schizophrenic.
And that's what I think of when I see some of this stuff, like all of these websites and I'm like, how much is just added on to make it over dramatized to where it's just too much. I do too.
Are you familiar with Paul Benowitz, the case of Paul Benowitz? This is one of my favorite examples of this.
No.
So Paul Benowitz was the, and I'm very sorry to everyone who's listening that have heard me regurgitate this a thousand times, but Stephen, Stephen's ears are bleeding. He just takes his headphones off when I tell the story. He was a, I believe it was in the sixties or seventies. He was like a big time UFO guy, right? And he was like,
top guy in the UFO community who lived in, I think it was New Mexico, over the mountain from a big Air Force base. And he was seeing these UFOs flying over this mountain almost every night, right, right before the sun went down. And he was writing about them, videotaping them, talking about them in these UFO conferences. And the Air Force caught wind of it, right?
And they sent over the head of counterintelligence at the Air Force base. His name was Richard Doty. to pay a visit to see what he knew, see what kind of footage he had or whatever it was. Cause they knew, you know, this wasn't aliens. They knew that they were testing, you know, crazy. This was right before the, um, like the stealth bomber came out.
So he went over to visit Paul Benoist and he was like, let's show me what you got. Let's see what, let's see what you have here. Like at his house, at his apartment. Yeah. And so we started showing this intelligence, this counterintelligence guy from the air force base, all the footage he had asking him questions about it.
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Chapter 16: What is the placebo effect and its impact on the brain?
and these russian spies were in this ufo community specifically to get information on what the us had or what what was going on over here so he used paul benowitz as a conduit to sow disinformation into the ufo community and to sort of poison the well so that the spies that were in any sort of spies that they thought could have been in that ufo community in the u.s would be diverted yeah
And that's a great example. Another one, one of my other favorite examples was when they were first testing the first jet planes at Area 51, when they were the CIA pilots were testing the first jet propelled airplanes. They would send them up in the cockpit. They would send a gorilla mask in the cockpit with them.
So in case they got in within visual distance of a civilian airplane, they put the gorilla mask on.
Yeah. Fucking genius. I remember reading that. They've been doing that forever. Yeah. Let's just overdo it. Let's just make the story 10 times crazier than it should be.
So if they were doing that in the 60s, imagine what they're doing today, especially with Google and YouTube and this just monopoly of information.
And one of the things, man, like if I could slightly change this track that we're on. One of the fastest ways I've ever discovered is to get somebody off of one track of thinking and start getting them to start believing something else. You've heard of the Kubler-Ross grief model before where it's like denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.
And it's like the five stages of grief that we all go through. It's debated maybe on Wikipedia or something, but I subscribe to it. And I've witnessed it a bunch of times. Yeah.
And conversationally, you can walk someone through those five stages of grief without them even knowing that they're going through that process and get them to relinquish control over a previously held belief or a previously held whatever you want them to get rid of. And it is so fast.
I've used it in interrogations before, and I've used it in just situations where I want to get somebody's mind to change on anything. So if I think of something like you have a belief of X, and I want to change it, like you're holding on to this belief. Let's say I'm a door-to-door sales guy, and I'm selling you solar. Mm-hmm.
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Chapter 17: How do checklists enhance performance?
And then talk about how all of your options are limited and like everything is so far out of our control and like push you into depression. And then I get you into acceptance a thousand times easier, a thousand times faster. So one of my clients owns a solar roofing company out on the West Coast. And he goes door or he owns a company that goes kind of door to door. And I gave this to him.
I didn't know if it would work in this situation, but they use this in door to door sales now and they can just wipe somebody's not wipe it, but get someone over their, their emotional ties to something that they held previously. Wow. It's a, it's a fascinating thing. Just identifying that grief cycle. And then,
I'm not just looking at it as a psychologist or a psychiatrist and like, oh, this is what humans go through. I'm looking at it as like, oh, that's what humans go through. Why don't I just make you go through it and get you out of something that you used to be in?
Interesting. Are there certain types of neighborhoods he targets? Do you target neighborhoods of people that are suggestible? Not necessarily rich neighborhoods because these people are going to be like, not going to take any bullshit.
I don't know. I think they do target high net worth neighborhoods.
people really i think they do those neighborhoods for sure because i know he's got a lot of those clients man he's the most interesting dude ever you should have him on the show i don't know if he would talk about aliens and stuff but he's he's a cool dude but that just that grief model was so powerful in understanding you know what shapes our behavior and what can change our behavior because all the evidence everything that you need to know is out there
There's all these studies of like, this is how humans process this. This is how humans respond to authority, like we talked about.
But even more important than that is if we could kind of get on this influence train for a second is, and this goes back to all this conspiracy stuff and how people get wrapped up in it, is everything that you look at, like if you search YouTube right now for influence training or persuasion or how to have confidence or charisma, you know, fill in the blank, whatever you want.
They're going to teach you how to change someone's thoughts and ideas. But if you can get down to the mammalian brain, now you're changing identity. So identity is what you truly want to change. You want someone to finish a conversation by in their head saying, I am the type of person who blank. Not I think blank, but I am. You want them to make an I am statement.
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