Danny Jones
👤 PersonPodcast Appearances
The McKenna Academy is hosting the Wisdom of the Leaf COCA Summit in 2025 from February 3rd through the 7th at the Wilka Tika Retreat Center in the Sacred Valley of Peru. With dozens of biologists, doctors, and professionals coming together alongside Dennis McKenna. And now you can join the summit too. Just go to McKenna.academy to find more information on the COCA Summit.
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Well, not only that, but it wouldn't be it wouldn't be killing people because it would be have to be regulated and made safely. Exactly. You wouldn't have all these people dying from cocaine laced with other things like fentanyl. And it would be a much safer. It would be much safer.
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Well, the problem with this, it's not just the cartels. It's the United States military industrial complex propping up the cartels and quite literally using them to fund covert ops forever. Well, absolutely.
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Just like the processing of iPhones. Yeah, well, exactly. How they get the materials for iPhones.
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Now, is it illegal for me to have a coca plant in my possession? Technically, yes.
People in Florida are growing coca? People in Florida are growing coca?
Well, I mean, it also, like, I've seen the documentaries. It's quite the laborious process to manufacture cocaine. Like, you see them taking all the leaves and then, like, crushing them up and mixing them with gasoline and all these other things in these big vats. Right. I mean, like... That's far from the actual leaf. And if you wanted to take the coca leaf, what would be the process of doing it?
Is it similar to like cot in Africa?
Yeah, we'll put the link in the description for people who want to read more about it.
That's amazing.
No, that's interesting. I saw that also you emailed me a paper recently that was in PubMed. It was a scientific paper that just – was it recent about coca? Yes. And what was the study that was going on there? Steve, I emailed that to you earlier. You'll have that. Okay.
Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Yeah, yeah. I'll link this below so people could – that conference is happening in just a few weeks in the beginning of February.
I'm not leaving.
That's amazing. Yeah. Sorry, was there something else you wanted to say?
No, we don't have a time limit.
We're good. We're like three hours in right now. So we can go as long as we want.
What does that word mean, herbarium? What does the word mean, herbarium?
Yeah, the word, herbarium.
It was back down.
Beautiful. Hear that here, folks? All you listeners out there with money, McKennaAcademy.com, Bionosis, and Coca-Conference. We need to get that. That's the kind of stuff that needs funding.
Oh, yes.
McKenna.academy. Yeah.
Oh, it's just McKenna.academy. Oh, that's even better. .academy. That's even easier. Yes.
That's beautiful.
Yeah, two or three times a week. Well, this is the first one we've done in two weeks because of the holiday break. Because of the holiday. But yeah, I mean, we had to get you halfway across the globe. You came all the way from the top left corner of the continent. Right. We're on the opposite end.
That's amazing. Wow. You guys already have a pretty good library. a podcast on here. You can search by topics. That's really cool. Search by topics. We need this. That's great. Yeah. Um, one more thing I wanted to kind of like take a detour before we wrap this up. Sure. There was one more thing I really wanted to talk to you about that we didn't get a chance to talk about.
Which was the, the studies that are going on with the extended state DMT. Uh, I think it's called DMT X where they're putting people on intravenous DMT and basically trying to map this DMT realm or the psychedelic psychedelic realm. Right. What is your understanding of this and where is this right now and where is it going?
You just do a slow drip.
Yeah, why were you a skeptic?
The question is, what's going on? Where is it? Where are we going? In this place? In this place. What do we use to figure out what's going on and where we are? And how real is it compared to where we're sitting right now? And what does that mean? Is it some sort of simulation? Yeah. Is it sort of breaking down the walls to our brain that's filtering this reality that we're in right now?
Is it getting rid of all the filters? And is it sort of like opening up and showing us more? Is all that stuff that you see on DMT, is that normally all around us everywhere right now? And when you're on DMT, the DMT is essentially filtering all that out.
Dissolving the filters, yeah.
Right. And it's interesting that so many people have such similar experiences on DMT and even like seeing ancient symbols, ancient structures. Yeah. it's almost like it's transcending space and time and showing you an infinite loop of history and the world and every organism that's ever existed on this planet. And even like language and codes and text.
And there's that, the video that I showed you or that you saw the podcast I did with that guy, Danny, who did the experiment with the laser where they shine a laser on the on the wall and all these people are experiencing the same thing or seeing the same thing in the laser where there's this code that comes through.
Yes.
Yes.
Into that ancient brain.
The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss. My Life with Terrence McKenna.
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Which is what I was saying earlier. There's every reason to think they won't look like us. Yes. That's what I wanted to ask you. What do you make of all of the alien abduction accounts throughout history? Do you think that that's something similar to like a DMT trip happening when someone's sleeping?
Or do you think like this is actually something that's happening exterior, like in the real world, they're being brought somewhere? Yeah.
They didn't have any, like, landing strips in La Charrera? You couldn't just, like, fly a little plane there?
I'm a big fan of Oliver Sacks, though.
Charles Bonnet syndrome, a condition that causes people with vision loss to experience hallucinations or see things that aren't there.
That's amazing. Isn't that incredible? That's fascinating.
yeah hallucination yeah as above so below right exactly well dennis thank you very much this has been mind exploding and uh very very a very very fun and uh eye-opening conversation for me i really appreciate you traveling here and doing this um
Yes. And as well, we will link the Coco Summit down below for people to sign up and check it out. It's happening in about three weeks, the first week of February.
Yes.
Well, thank you, man. I enjoy it so much. Likewise. I very much enjoyed this as well. Thanks again for coming. Happy to have come.
Of course. Yeah. We'll have to do it again sometime.
All right. Good night, world.
So you were just eating these for like breakfast, lunch and dinner?
I have no experience with psychedelics other than DMT, which I did for the first time recently.
I've heard, yeah. My only experience is cannabis and DMT.
Like a chemical doorway to another dimension.
Well, I'm very honored. Thank you.
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What was the book about?
And you can email Annette at McKenna.academy for pricing and details. Be a part of the change and now enjoy this fantastic conversation with Dennis McKenna. All right, Dennis. Thanks for coming, man.
Interesting.
I was not expecting this. Right. Because I didn't know. I had no conception of what to expect when I was doing this. My only expectation was... what the closest I've been to this on, on edible marijuana, right? Which is no, not even in the same universe. Right. And as soon as I started to effectively, as soon as my soul left my body, I don't know how else to put it.
I had this pulsing wow, wow, wow. Like very vivid auditory sensation.
No, this isn't the craziest thing I've ever heard, give it or not.
He was a fan of psychological torture.
Roughly 10 days.
Did you have any relationship to physical reality back on earth? Or was it like, how did you get through the day?
He thought something was going to happen in December of the year 2000, right?
2012.
No, I didn't read that part.
So that was it. During that time, that whole entire period of 10 days roughly, were you guys constantly taking mushrooms?
You had stopped. Oh, yeah. This was just like an after effect of that.
The spiral makes sense because he talked about time speeding up, right?
Does that ultimately mean that it means that it failed? Or is it possible that it could happen sometime in the future at another date? You know, that's the thing about, you know, Terrence was, I think, self-admittedly very slippery with his ideas, right? You got it. Well, just going...
on these psychedelic voyages and downloading this knowledge and being able to form it into a coherent idea that you can articulate with words, some of these concepts and these ideas almost by design cannot be measured and weighed scientifically, right? They don't necessarily pass scientific method muster, but that doesn't mean necessarily that they're not useful, right? No, they are useful.
And what was the first psychedelic that you guys came across? Because psilocybin mushrooms weren't easy to come across in the United States.
Right. So was it just LSD mainly?
No, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
Right. Yes. It's a compounding progression, right? Things emerge out of other – Exactly. Ideas, bigger ideas emerge from smaller ideas with collaboration and the evolution of ideas and these things.
So have I. So have I. Your book is absolutely fascinating. The way it just walks people through you and your brother's childhood and growing up and essentially how you guys were incubated into this world of psychedelics and You know, the whole like 60s counterculture movements.
What do you think his primary motivations were with all this stuff? What drove him?
Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.
What was Stanford doing with DMT?
Right.
This is the height of the Charles Manson stuff when he was going to that free clinic in Haight-Ashbury. Exactly. Jolly West.
Right. Well, unless you do it in the form of ayahuasca.
You have to make it.
Yeah. And that goes to something I wanted to ask you. Do you think there is a fundamental change in the brain that lasts? And how long does it last when you... when you take these psychedelics, whether it be ayahuasca, DMT, or psilocybin? And is there, like, something that is unlocked?
Yeah, the Cold War was such a crazy time. And the fact that it collided with the psychedelic movement is just crazy. Yeah.
That's another way to think about it.
I noticed this, this could have been placebo, but I noticed after the DMT, which I've never noticed with anything else, is that I felt like I was thinking differently. Yeah, you do. Like I was thinking – I was able to see problems from multiple angles at once. It was very strange.
That's so fascinating.
How do you spell his last name?
Yes. Yes, yes. That's a great way of putting it.
And he did. What took me so long to jump to the DMT thing, to experiment with DMT, was because my only experience is with marijuana. And I'm an extreme lightweight person. So I could many times go way overboard by accident to where I'm, white knuckling my chair and hurling through the void of my deepest, darkest fears. And everything is coming at me at once.
And it's, everything is the worst case scenario. Every, every worst case scenario I can imagine in my life is, is all happening to me simultaneously. And it's terrifying. And that wasn't the experience with DMT, but, but going back to that, even though it's so terrifying and, and my worst fears are creeping in, there's always something positive I can take from it.
There's always at least one thing where I'll be like, Oh, where's the, I need a pen. Where's a pen. I need to, I need to write this down. Like something I can pull out of that alien realm that is going to be extremely useful for me.
Yeah, you have, there's like telemedicine shamans now. You can literally like order a shaman to come to your house and do this whole thing with you now.
Right? Like that's a service that people provide now.
Here's your Uber call. Yeah, yeah. You just get on your app and order your shaman and you're ready to roll.
Yes.
The most valuable, definitely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a great thing to use as a tool. And it's why it's so frustrating that our culture and our society and our government, which is co-opted by, you know,
businesses and pharmaceutical industries and things like this that that pressure our society to outcast these things you know and and label them as these evil substances that will kill you and they're you know it's just it seems like it's just We're going in the wrong direction.
It happens in anything.
But the biggest difference is it doesn't it doesn't prey on those desires. Like it doesn't other drugs like alcohol or nicotine or these other things, they all rely on this dopaminergic pathway and you get addicted to it. And now you're using it to suppress other things. You're using it to suppress your, whether it be depression or any other sort of psychological thing you have going on. Sure.
Where it can just send you down this deep, vicious spiral, this dark spiral, but with the psychedelics, it's not, it's not something that you're going to be in most cases addicted to an abusing. It's something that people are going to use as a tool.
Like, like most people, when you talk to them about their DMT experiences or their, their psychedelic mushroom experiences, you'll ask them, they'll, they'll talk about it. Like they just got done tripping, but then you'll say like, when's the last time you did it? I'll be like, Oh, like eight months ago, a year ago.
Cocaine is one of those, which we'll talk about.
And, you know, I thought it was really cool how it was a very grounded backstory of how you guys came to be and how you guys are also so different, but also so similar.
This is like the brain filter hypothesis.
Where we're all connected under the water, but above we're all little individual islands.
And how did you take DMT back then?
Well, it's millions of years of our brains evolving to survive, right? And to evolve and to push our species into the future.
You mean like they stay in the trip?
Could you imagine? Imagine if you were never able to make it back and articulate what it was.
What does it say? Non-psychotic disorder in which a person experiences apparent, lasting, or persistent visual hallucinations or perceptual distortions using drugs. Oh, yeah, there's this guy who – his name's Andrew –
Callahan or something like that he's got a he's got a he's a really cool documentary and makes a kind of like run and gun documentaries on YouTube and he talks about how he's experienced with he experimented with I think it was LSD when he was really young. I think like in his, when he was like 10 or 11, and he still sees these visual hallucinations in his, just in his visual field.
Like he's not tripping per se, like as you were. But he just has the visual part of it.
Exactly. And that probably happens more when you're a kid, right? When you're young.
I had a friend once tell me that he used to take mushrooms all the time. This was a long time ago. And he'd say when he was tripping too hard, he would just do cocaine and it would pull him right out of it. That's possible.
When it comes to like... The drugs that are legal and illegal and what are banned and what we're not allowed to use and what are only approved for like certain therapies. Right. It's just like it's it's what they don't what people don't realize is we are literally walking bags of drugs. Good point. That we're never in one state.
Our state is constantly evolving depending on what chemicals are taking over and the balance. It's just a constant balance of drugs and chemicals in our bodies.
And it's so fun to experiment and offset that balance a little bit and see how that, if it affects us positively or negatively.
Yeah, I mean, and even through history. Imagine how much drugs people were doing through antiquity, right? Like, they didn't have the cultural boundaries and guidelines and sanctions, if you want to put it that way, around society, right? Like, they didn't have to follow these... They didn't have to fit into these norms. They were probably just...
Roaming around, trying to have sex and get high and eat. Pretty much. Right?
Yeah. I think that's one of my favorite theories that Terrence came up with. It makes a lot – it's much more easy to comprehend than time wave zero.
We went over this with… Was it Gallimore? No, he went over this with Michael Masters. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yes.
I was going to ask you, is there a way to disprove it?
Have you ever heard of the extra-tempestrial model? there's a biological anthropologist named Michael Masters who came up with this theory and he got into he got into anthropology because he was obsessed with UFOs when he was a kid and the little grey aliens and basically with that extra-tempestrial model is that what we know of as the little grey alien aliens
figures that we see with the small, skinny spindly bodies and the big heads are not creatures from another planet or another solar system. They are future humans. And there's this phenomena in in evolution called pedomorphism.
And essentially what pedomorphism is, is that if you, if you go back in time and you look at, um, the offspring of primates, they, the offspring of primates look like their future descendants. So like, if you, if you pull up a picture of like a, like a, a young primate, it looks, it's kind of like, look like right there.
It's got a head more proportionate to the body of us today. And if you look at a fully grown – an adult primate, it's got that head with a forward protruding jaw, a slanted forehead, and a much bigger body.
Yes, exactly. So like, if you look at our children today, they look like what these little gray aliens kind of look, they look more like what these little gray aliens look like that we'd see in the movies, right? Or if you look at like John Max, you know, all the studies that he did on people with abduction experiences.
So his idea is that those are humans that have evolved hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years into the future. And what they're doing is they're coming back in these time machines. These flying saucers are essentially time machines coming back to repopulate future humanity in the future.
So if there was some sort of big cataclysmic event in the future, like a global thermonuclear war or some sort of climate catastrophe or a cosmic catastrophe that happened, and there was a bottleneck in humanity and civilization, they would want to come back to sort of extract DNA from their ancestors to repopulate themselves back into the future, which would explain John Mack's
Professor John Mack from Harvard, he was the guy, I'm sure you're familiar with him, famous psychiatrist. Yeah. When there was a vast majority of those cases involved the extraction of eggs and sperm from these people that were experiencing these alien abductions, whether that was happening in reality or whether that was happening in their heads, we don't know.
But he said that would explain, that's a hypothesis for that. And another way he uses to explain to bolster this idea is that why would like all of these alien sightings, these UFO sightings around the world have ties to these Communications of save the planet. Be aware of technology. Technology can destroy you.
So why would a future civilization or why would a civilization from a completely separate galaxy care about preserving us? Like what stakes would they have in our planet?
They would have a stake in this planet and they would want to protect humanity and protect the planet, right? Because it would have directly affect them in hundreds of thousands of years into the future. So, and then that combined with the fact that we are so rare as bipedal hominids that have figured out technology to the point where we can escape the planet.
Like out of all of the catalog species, I think there's over 2 million catalog species on Earth. And out of that 2 million, 20 of them are hominids. Out of the 20 hominids, there's one... One of them, which figured out technology. And the invented language. And all of that.
So us, out of all the species on this earth that's bursting with life and biology, we're 0.0001% of the living creatures on this earth. So think about just how rare we are on this one planet that's in this Goldilocks zone that is filled with life. And all of the other Goldilocks planets that we found are – they don't have the same gravity. They don't have the same atmosphere.
It is almost – it is pretty much impossible that any sort of life would evolve to be upright bipedal hominids. Most of those worlds are water worlds. Yeah. So they would look so much different.
Right? And there's so many accounts of these UFO sightings near nuclear sites. Yeah, yeah. You know, disabling nuclear launch sites and stuff like that. Yeah.
Yes, exactly. Yeah, and there's the— We were trying to build one, but it kind of didn't work. Right.
and there's the uh the time dilation uh which happens which is the paradox of uh like if we wanted to send uh astronauts to travel to the edge of the galaxy it would take 22 years in rocket time which would be like a million years of earth time right so by the time they get halfway there in 10 years or whatever there would have been 500 000 years on earth they could have sent somebody up in five minutes that would be passing them with their belly still full of breakfast
Yes. You know what I mean? Like, wow, we wasted our whole lives, 10 years of our lives when Earth has evolved. You basically have to say goodbye to everyone you know on Earth because time would be passing so much faster on Earth.
Let's talk about plants. Let's talk about— Back to drugs. I'm sure you've read The Road to Eleusis with Carl Ruck and Albert Hoffman and Gordon Wasson. Right. And Brian Marorescu's book that— Immortality Key. That's the new one based off that.
Yeah. And it's just these cultures in ancient times and the Greeks and the Romans were just doing. There's another book called The Chemical Muse, which is really good, which was a book wrote all about Galen. Yes, Galen. Second sensory physician who was Marcus Aurelius' doctor. Right, right.
And he was amazing, like a huge mind of antiquity and philosophical mastermind and a medicine, you know, he was a savant, right? He created all these concoctions and medicines and drugs. And he even wrote about like, how much opium Marcus Aurelius, he had to give Marcus Aurelius so much opium.
He was getting addicted to opium and he kept, when he was writing, he would always like be kind of complaining about how he kept having to up the dose for Marcus Aurelius because he was so just addicted to opium. And, you know, basically that book, The Chemical Muse just talks about how drugs were ubiquitous in antiquity. They were just everywhere.
People were constantly doing drugs because, you know, there was constant death and plague and famine everywhere. People were starving, people were dying of diseases and people were getting injured and, you know, dying, getting injured in war and battle. So drugs were just a part of everyday life, and they didn't distinguish the difference between medicinal and recreational.
And dose – it's interesting you bring up dose too because what you say about poisons because they also took poisons like viper venoms.
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Right.
Yeah.
It's quite horrible, actually.
It wasn't invented yet? No. Was coke invented yet? Yeah. When was coke invented?
Okay.
Really? Yeah, she's my oldest friend now.
Fake news, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Right. It's hard. Yeah, I'm sure.
Right.
And I personally don't care because I'm not in that world really and I have all the love that I need in the world. But I am noticing that it's a big pain point for scientists I have two physicists who are totally on board to help out, but they said, I have to be consulting. I can't put my name on it. I'm going to lose everything. That's crazy. That's crazy.
Yes. Yesterday when we were sitting and having dinner, you asked Zoltan a question that I kind of chuckled at. You asked, what do you do in your, like, what do you, what do you do? Like, what do you do on a day to day? What do you do every day? Like, what's your routine?
And that's a really funny question if you actually get to hang out with him for a little bit, because I've seen, I've, I've seen the switch. So like yesterday you just experienced like us just talking and exchanging stories and all of that stuff. Yeah. I saw the switch happen with Zoltan when somebody walked in the room and said something to him.
The truth is not in consensus is very powerful.
Also, it...
But the small thing to add to that is that in order for that to hold water, you first have to acquire the ability to have a certain level of discernment, which is important. You did a certain amount of work on yourself that you trust your own experience in a way that not for everybody it's that solidified. I have that to some degree. You have that to a larger degree.
But it's also because you have more of, I guess, what you would call external accolades to rest on to say, I tried things my way. They worked out. So now whenever I walk in a room and somebody starts yapping business advice at me, I'll let them yap, but I'm like, you do you. I did it my way. Look around you. That's what I've achieved. What did you achieve?
So that gives you a certain amount of confidence in your convictions. And I have some of that in other domains. Some people, I realized, don't always have that because they are never really dropping an anchor ever. or for whatever other reason, and they never really land on something that pans out. So from that perspective, it's very difficult to trust yourself and to trust your convictions.
One of these like, you know, in the movie moments where somebody kind of whispers something in his ear, like something happened. And you see like this immediate switch in his face. He goes, he just gets up. He gets like, all right, I'll be right back. Walked outside, comes back and something just happened, right?
And I do appreciate that because it was pointed out to me in one of my daily lives, it was pointed out to me. And I never thought about that. And it has to do with a certain ability to track what is going on to a degree. And if it pans out enough times, well, it's almost like check marks. It's like, okay. Yeah, yeah.
But the second you achieve that, and this is the thing, that it's funny when people think that I've kind of like went with the first idea I had and just kind of ran with it. Couldn't be literally the opposite of that. I've experienced this space thousands of times and so much that I'm like, okay, I think I have a say in what I think each thing in there is because I simply visited it so often.
So I have some discernment that I trust. Would it be just that thing and also nothing else, like even just the console, let's say? Would I be speaking about this with that amount of conviction now? I don't know.
I think that it's because something came out of it that I can show other people, or at least to a substantial number of people, that basically gave me that checkmark of like, something is there, and it doesn't matter what you say, until you don't address the exact direct thing that I'm seeing,
Something, he just solved some kind of a problem and you never felt it as the guest, right? Like you just walked outside, you saw something was going on. Somebody asked something, he had to like give input, serious input. He comes back out, hey, and you just continue with the conversation of like, whoa, holy shit.
it doesn't mean he's wrong we just don't see what this person sees so you know so it's reserved the right to be insane yeah but this is why i'm saying that to me to me the the bottom question at least at the moment is what is the relationship between the mind and matter because matter seems to have this universal to us universal democratic thing where doesn't matter how crazy you are
You try to walk through the wall, you ain't doing it. That is an important point. What is that? Why is that that way? So ultimately, to me, the encouragement, again, is to just broaden the spectrum of entertainment, of how many things we entertain and we want to include in the ontology that we're building on, without getting lost. It's a fine line.
I'm trying to push the ontology just slightly out, saying, hey, the thing that we want to consider seriously is... is a little bit right outside of what we currently do. Can we just push it out? I think it will solve a lot of problems. That's really all I'm saying.
No, it's... That was different. Is that in EuroGum, by the way? Before you...
Sure, I'll have some. Yeah, I'll go grab some. I feel like I don't want more coffee. I feel like it's going to fly me to the moon. Have you tried Yerogun before? Yeah. Is it good? Yeah.
So there's like, there's this immediate switch of like, oh, we got to go into a different mode now. Okay. The warrior kind of wakes up and you see it in real time. It's very interesting. It's also why I realized that nothing that he does, at least from my interaction with you so far, is unintentional. So when we just sit and hang out, it's like, yeah, that's my free time.
That's funny. It was banned from outer space.
I'm going to talk about whatever is close to my heart and I want to talk about. But he never does a thing that is unintentional. And because of that, when he told me, okay, he recently just decided to come on my podcast, which is not even that huge yet. So there was a very intentional decision.
quite a few like dozens of people that told me that they had a similar experience so i bet you that after this episode is released at this point you'll see a bunch of comments you'll see people like oh that happened to me it really happens very often to people right so to to tell you what what happened you know i ventured in this space hundreds and hundreds of times right and
Not jiu-jitsu rolling, just regular rolling. Maybe later we'll do some jiu-jitsu rolling. I got to bring my mat over here, though. Maybe you can smoke DMT and then you guys can roll. Could you imagine?
It's like, no, I think this is important to talk about now because I never, he never spoke about this publicly ever before because there was no reason for it. It was just, you know, and now he felt like it's important enough. And I took that also as well. First of all, it's kind of like a check mark of like, okay, we're on the right path here.
But also, there's an understanding that something, even if we don't fully understand what it is, none of us, there's something very major that is going on that needs attention. And that attention needs to be put on in the right way.
Not just, you know, like I see a lot of people kind of like in a lot of different communities from spiritual communities of the awakening, UAP communities, disclosure, the arising of AGI in the tech world. All of these things seem to be like types of crescendos that are arriving. And we're all in some relationship to them. The mapping of the human mind, neural link, all of these things, right?
You can't just come. I wonder why did it stand out to you, that particular instance, the being locked out?
yeah so there you go now if somebody says this you're gonna say well you hit your head a hundred people says this then you go okay i need to look at this so so this this is something that you're touching on i think is very important john chavez from dmt quest who uh got involved with the film and uh not like he he invested in it but also he asked us if we we would be okay with in
venturing into some territories like near-death experience or things like this, potentially, if we can be presented with a certain amount of data. So what John is really good at, he's very aware of all the different kinds of research that exists out there.
And it seems like... And the truth is that none of us actually knows what the real thing is, my discovery. But I don't think it's coincidence. I don't think it's a coincidence. I think all of this is almost like the universe goes like, hey, pay attention.
And he made me aware of this, I didn't know this, that apparently what you would call these fringe investigative sections of science, near-death experience, uh, some people manifesting objects, like things that you would think like, oh, this is some, you know, like twilight zone, crazy shit. Apparently there's like real data about these things.
And it, for the most part is kind of being ignored. I have a friend who, that I know really well, and he had a open heart surgery. And he was very, well, kind of like us, like he's very open-minded, straightforward, not, you know, like necessarily married to believe anything in particular. But pretty, I would say secular in his predispensation. He came back completely changed. And he said, Danny?
Danny? I was above my body. The whole shebang. I went to visit my mother in Ireland. I saw her. I know it wasn't a vision. I know I saw her like in real time. He's like, I will never be the same. It's like, because there's a level of realness to it, I guess. I've never had that.
I mean, that's insane. That's the wrong usage of the file.
I've never had an out-of-body experience, but I understand that sentiment of like the realness of it that is so salient to the person.
I think I've heard this. He said it was the same thing. This guy?
I'm open to it. I'm on record saying this. This is a conversation me and Zoltan had back and forth.
This just ended today. So you're a perfect person to ask. I do want to ask you about this difference that the guy was describing. Because my impression also that the DMT, and N at least, feels very different than what I'm experiencing when I'm in deep states of meditation. I've never had near death, but from the descriptions, and again, this is why you're a perfect person to ask,
you don't feel that there's a difference in the essence of it? Like the digital nature of like how the DMT space feels, doesn't it feel different to you than what you experienced when you were 12 years old when you hit the truck? Maybe not.
This is the boss.
Right.
Well, the body can.
Yeah, sure, sure. In an instance, it might
I mean, you would think it sounds like it should be an obvious thing for us, and yet I think that the problem is that it's an obvious thing for us. Like, that should not be the attitude of humanity as a whole. Like this idea that it's always a zero-sum game just needs to go away, basically. Otherwise, there's just no chance. Because you're going to get bigger and bigger weapons.
even in the, in the crazier ways, not in the, like the, cause what you, everything you just said can still be folded into kind of like the psychoanalytical frame. Right. But even in the crazier things, like people don't necessarily have to go into psychedelics because to be fair, there are worse things than, than not existing, like suffering forever.
So, you know, that there are worse things, right? Okay. Um, but, but no, but, and I, and I take the fear, but, but what, everything that Zoltan did in his life revolved around a simple attitude, which is, I'm going to find out for myself. And I think that is such an important thing to emphasize. Recently, I told this to Zoltan yesterday.
This was told to me by a friend of mine, and he read it somewhere, so I'm definitely cutting somebody out from the chain of commands that actually uttered the idea. But it's a cool experiment. A friend, Nico, told me about it. Basically, You sit down in the house before you do some mundane task. Bank, store, whatever it is that you're about to do. Sit down, close your eyes for a second.
Envision yourself with everything you're wearing as accurately as possible where you're going to be. If it's at the bank, in front of the teller, doing whatever you're doing. If it's at the store, maybe the cashier, doing the checkout. Whatever it is that you're going to be doing. Envision yourself there and then say, please deliver me there safely. Simple.
Then when you're at that spot, standing in front of the teller in the bank, you don't have to close your eyes, obviously, you don't look retarded, but envision yourself on that couch 10 minutes earlier, sitting there, talk to yourself in the past, say, thank you for delivering me here safely. So what's interesting is that you basically create a portal.
You communicate to existence, I understand how this works. I know at the moment, from my limited perspective, I think of it as like, oh, what do you mean? I just got up and I went to the bank. No, it's an occurrence that happened because you had an aim, you had a vision, you stayed with it.
It's a simple one that you do all the time and you can accomplish easily, but you're signifying that you understand how it actually works, which is you have an intention, You have an energy you're putting into the intention, and you're staying on it for a particular amount of time until it occurs exactly how you wanted it to happen.
You don't necessarily know how you're moving your hand or moving your body. You just kind of accept it to be true. But what actually happened when you wanted to go to the bank is that you had all these ideas about going there, and then you had an impulse, and you stayed with that impulse. The point is that when you start communicating to yourself across time this way, quote-unquote,
You're starting showing, wait, can I do this with a thing that I don't necessarily expect to happen? This is where you start playing with it. This is what I mean by anybody can verify this. The practice is that you're supposed to be expending the amount of miracles or synchronicities that are going to happen to you. And you can test this.
So then you go, okay, next time I'm going to the bank, I'm going to imagine, I'm going to do the same. Deliver me there safely. But I'm also going to envision something that might not happen. Like I'm going to see somebody with a pink hat or something. If you show up to the bank and somebody has even clothes, something pink, distinctly pink on their head, go, oh, interesting.
Thank you for delivering me here safely. Also, yes, interesting. And then you start playing with it. Okay, how far can I take this?
I'm going to the bank I'm gonna meet somebody on the way and I'm gonna have some kind of a big life change and you start believing in it because you're like well dude that was crazy like why would they have a pink thing on their head and now you start playing with it try this try this anybody can try this testing the matrix I had this dude on here Eric Wargo who wrote a book called Time Loops have you heard of it no
As well as the other way around. It's one system that communicates to itself across all the time back and forth and just one block. Yeah.
No, no, I'm in full agreement. And I think it's just that the more you have these check marks of like, yeah, that worked. Yeah. Again, in Zoltan's example, it's very pronounced because he knew he's going to be a rock star when he was like 14. Right. Right. So but he knew. It's not like he just postulated. He communicated that across time to say, I know that well enough to step into that frame.
Is there a world line for a version of Zoltan that didn't get there? Yes. It's the one that didn't postulate it strongly enough. So now that sounds like one of these, oh, parallel universe. Test it. Multiverse. Try it. It's not, it costs you nothing to try this, right? And I promise you there's going to be something there that's going to occur.
And again, don't fall into any like silly trap of like, well, you know, I wanted to see some silly hat, but somebody, then I went outside and on the way back home, I saw a pink bubble gum. That doesn't count. Like be fair with the, you know, with your assessments. But the more you're fair with your assessments and like you're a better manifester,
It's just that you're better at envisioning things and connecting to them in a way that will actually make it happen.
And there's a state of mind and being that amplifies these things. So definitely with DMT and with certain meditative states, I don't know if you know this, but all the participants in the DMTX study in Imperial College, I hope I'm not confabulating this, but I'm pretty sure that Alexander Boehner in his book, The Bigger Picture, he was one of the test subjects.
And he is talking about, I think he said all of them, experienced an incredible uptake in these synchronicities even before they started the actual tests. So I think it was like a month before that they all started experiencing crazy synchronicities. During and a few months after, like tapered off.
And when you're on certain like, I guess, calm states or like after deep meditative states, all of a sudden, all of these things are much more pronounced. You can see them, but at the same time, you see that you just flow through them. You're not even trying to grab them or anything like this. There's this thing that people call Burning Man magic. It's a real thing.
It's like when people go to Burning Man, there's this insane uptick in synchronicities that happen there that are way outside of the realm of just chance. And I think it's because everybody is kind of in a particular state that it just kind of makes these things happen. But again, this is... Anybody can test this. You know, Ricky Gervais famously said... I don't know why.
Cause he started kind of late in his life and he said, I don't know why, but I always, I just knew it's all going to be all right. Like I don't never, even when we had no money and like, I was just like, isn't it weird?
So they can always go to the website codeofreality.com. We have a new website coming up right now. And Dango Thoughts on YouTube. D-A-N-G-O Thoughts. And Code of Reality Inc. is basically going to be now an official thing. And we're going to be working to actually bringing the right kind of minds together.
We have incredible minds coming into the space from literally... Well, I don't know how many of them I can talk about yet, but... From scientists to people who are just higher level thinkers and software engineers. And we really have incredible people that are coming online.
And we're very excited about bringing everybody together and encouraging more entities around us to also do more of the same. More of investigative processes that are more open-minded. And more also, I guess, open-hearted. So not so much rigid with what they believe is true, including more things. And Zoltan, I mean, I guess you're a famous person.
You're going to be able to go wham, and you're going to destroy more things. So the attitude of the monkey is the only thing that actually matters.
We met through a mutual friend who I don't, I'm never sure if he necessarily wants to always be mentioned in every context, but we met through a mutual friend, very good friend. And we basically met at an event that Zoltan is now the founder of as well, which is the PGF. It's a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, would you call it a league?
I was invited to come help with the event, just kind of shoot stuff and all that good stuff. And then me and Zoltan were, I was invited to Zoltan's house to shoot some, actually a podcast, we'll just do a little setup. And I had to stay for another day because we were, you know, we were kind of rolling behind. So then it was like, hey, can you stay overnight? I'm like, sure.
I think that's regardless. Well, Dan Hardy, right? The MMA fighter. He used to talk about his usage of psychedelics in fighting. Who? Dan Hardy was his name? I don't know who that is. Yeah, he was a famous UFC fighter. Really? Yeah, and he used to talk about how he used to get in the cage on mushrooms. And he said, I can see the future.
That evening we sit down, start talking. He starts talking about some profound shit that, you know, always kind of the conversation drifts towards. Yeah, yeah. And then I remember the short version of the story is that I asked him some question about something that he was describing in the psychedelic space. And then he kind of threw me a glance. And he goes, okay. And then he kept on talking.
Can't even imagine being there watching in real time.
And then I asked him another question. And then he goes, wait a second. And he goes, what's your name? I go, because we didn't really. I go, Danny. And he looks back at our mutual friend and goes, wait, this is DMT Danny? Yeah. I go, what? He goes, bro, I've been following you. I'm like, what? First of all, I didn't know my name was DMT Danny. Second of all, and he's like, bro.
And then later Zoltan was saying that the reason he looked at me is because he knew that the question I asked him, which I wish we would remember what it was, but I asked him something that he knew that... Only somebody who went really deep into space kind of would know that kind of stuff. Because it's very specific. And then from that moment on, we just literally became best friends.
We were just like two buttheads just sitting there and talking until 5 a.m. about all kinds of... He stayed a week. I stayed a week, Kelsey.
Wow. That's just a side track. I think I just realized something about you. So in terms of meditation, the way I see it is you basically learn how to Quiet your immediate field to get access to the bigger field where there's more information. Yes. And most people are just like in the immediate instance, constantly splashing the pawn of their immediate field. They're like all the time.
Like the stuff that's right in front of them. Right in front of them. So then that's the immediate language you interact with, the words you say. That's why everybody sounds so repetitive all the time. And because you're constantly excited, that's where you believe the boundaries are. That's my mind.
But if you learn different forms of meditation, what you learn is every time it tries to get excited, it's like asking you, it's like, hey, excite me again. Usually you just tap, right? But then you learn to not tap. You just wait. And then eventually it quiets enough. And you start seeing the further parts of the mind where there's like more interconnected information.
And it's actually easier to acquire some form of genius in a lot of different things because you all of a sudden see, oh, oh, I didn't realize that's like connected. Oh, then you start like connecting all these things. And essentially the ultimate path, the Buddhist path is to... stay not excited forever, basically till the moment that the full dissolution of the form just happens.
Are you Danny? You knew it. One thing I can say that was kind of surprising to me is because a lot of people just in the psychedelic space in general, they have this way of exploring these spaces that is very loose, so to speak. So people go into these spaces and they have their experiences and then they exchange notes.
But the degree to which you can do that, that's the degree to which you, how far you can see into the mind space, so to speak.
But ultimately, it's always a very, it's a very shifty ground that people are trying to describe to one another, right? So people come to a conclusion about particular things like beings or spaces and things like this. But with Zoltan, it was so obvious that not just that he exploited very deeply, but also, I mean, you know, his reputation kind of runs in front of him. So like, it's not like...
But I think in general with all contemplative practices from meditation to psychedelics, any seeking beyond the immediate space that we're familiar with, the best part of it is the practice. The main difference between the Eastern way of doing things and the Western way of doing things,
is then the Eastern way of doing things, the emphasis is fully on the practice and the experience of it versus the theory and the stuff that you believe about it, right? The dogma, whatever it is. You might believe all the stuff about Jesus, but be nothing like Jesus.
So Zoltan loves stories, he has a lot of stories, but at the same time, the execution level is so high, right? Every single thing he touches, I call him like a master pattern recognizer. The martial arts, the music, he was never taught to play the guitar. So he just understands what patterns work.
And you might believe nothing about Jesus, but be exactly like Jesus just by understanding certain things about life, about experience. And the point of, you know, in Vipassana, for example, the main point is to keep your lid open as long as you possibly can and you don't resist and you don't push.
And then what you watch happening is that all these little wiggles that are trying to convince you that something is important right now, eventually when enough time passes and that thing expresses itself fully, you realize it wasn't. And then there's only so many times this can happen to you before you realize.
All the little wiggles? Yeah. So the little wiggles, what I mean is that all these little things, all the little convictions you have of like what you quote unquote must do right now, right? You're like, you sit there, we can make it specific. You sit there, you just basically, you know, you scan your body in a particular way. You're trying to do that and thoughts constantly interrupt, right?
Like, oh, I got to itch this place. So that's a simple one, right? Everybody familiar with that. Okay, well, what happens if you don't itch? So in the immediate moment, the mind goes like, oh, the world's like, I got to itch. That's not a what if, like, no, we got to itch right now, okay? And then you practice, okay, well then let's stay five more seconds. And then you wait.
And then eventually that itch goes away like it never existed. And that feeling of complete conviction that you have to itch goes away with it. So this sounds like, oh, that's just like an itch. Well, everything's like this. The thought of like, oh, whoa, I got to call this person right now. Because, I don't know, they're going to get upset. All these stories you have, right? Okay.
I mean, listen, if it's important and they need to get in your house to fix something, okay, I get it. But you don't need to panic about it. But usually, most things are not as important as we believe they are. And the point is that the stress that is created in our bodies because we are convinced that we have to do X or Y are actually a much bigger problem than any X or Y.
So basically what you practice is, how do you let things go, literally? Not in terms of, how do you not push, not pull? If something is pleasant, how do you not get attached to it? Like, oh, I want more of that.
Or if something unpleasant happens, how do you not immediately recoil and try and push it away versus like, hey, you can fix it if it's uncomfortable, but you don't need to like freak out about it. It's like, okay, how do I just stay with it for a second? That's really the main practice.
Now from that simple practice, you start understanding that really it's the concentric circles, the fractal of life. Everything is like this. So when you try and get to a solution to something complicated, under pressure... you can be more or less successful in it, but you will for sure be more successful in it more of the times if you can have a more quiet mind.
A mind that is not constantly trying to compete with a million ideas of what's important, what's not important. If you know how to quiet that pond,
He just started, what I started telling you, he started building this property he got, and then he was like, well, maybe I'll get into understanding some things about architecture. Pulls one of the most reputable architects in Vegas back from retirement, brings them into the project. The reason I started telling you the story is because we met the guy when he was already finishing the project.
the right ideas find you immediately so it's almost like as obvious as i just got to pick up this cup versus all these competitions that happens in your mind so i think that ultimately when you're looking at all the practices meditative practices and the psychedelics the lid part is just the realization that your immediate space is not everything
And most of the time, you don't have to make as much effort to achieve things as you think you do. It's more just your neurosis. I don't even know how to pronounce that word. How do you say that word?
Neurosis. Neurosis. Neurosis. There you go. Neurosis.
Neurosis. So your neurosis is basically the thing that really convinces you that something is wrong. When in reality... you could have just relaxed and not say anything. So this is actually a perfect example right now, right?
I just want to say this was super interesting for me. I'm watching you guys talk, and every single thing you guys are saying is so fascinating to me. And I'm like, ooh, yeah, I want to say this thing about it, right? And then I was like, okay. But then you just wait a second. And then, oh, it was expressed. I was like, oh, perfect. But imagine how much this happens in life, right?
Where you're just kind of like, oh, I got to do this. I was like, well, what was your goal? Your goal was that that idea would be expressed? Well, it was just expressed. So don't worry about it. Just relax. Just relax. But that is very difficult to do because we always want the self-expression. And we want to, in some way, to existence is already implying you there.
And if you can be comfortable with not being implied, the degree to which you can be comfortable with not being implied is the exact degree to which you're free. Because if you're okay to be completely to dissolve into the background, that's essentially nirvana. You just, it doesn't matter. You just kind of float there.
Now, given that's a very difficult thing to achieve because, you know, but that's really, that is the ultimate seed of the ultimate path where there's really, you can enjoy whatever happens and you can, you know, you can go through very difficult times when they do happen, But the extra suffering on top of it with all the inner struggle of the mind doesn't actually have to be there.
And you can just let it go.
But that's a great example. Like, in a company, there's never... Even when they say, you know, they have an upward-driven trend, right? But when, like, a company cannot stand... the idea that there's a downwards trend of some sort, like there's a flux in everything, right?
So if over 20 years, the company always makes money, but some years it goes a little down, the year that it goes a little down, everybody are losing their minds. Why? You know what I mean? It's just part of a natural flow. If the company is constantly losing money, it's just not working, okay, that's a different story.
But if you can have, like you said, the myopic nature of it is a perfect way of describing it. If you can just relax around the downwards trends, which is literally in everything. You can't escape it. In stock market, in natural processes, in your life. Sell, sell, sell, sell, sell.
He told us... completely unsolicited, he said, Zoltan is the most talented architect he's ever worked with in his life. And I said, wait, are you an architect? Zoltan goes, no, I just understand what works. So he gave him ideas that he never thought about. So he has this one of these minds that just understands what works in terms of functionality and outcome. And this is fascinating. Yeah.
Yeah. and again it's okay do another line exactly no and this is why i keep saying you know i'm like i'm i love technology but it's absolutely true that if we don't if we have everything and yet we still can't enjoy it what's the point of having everything right yeah it's finding that balance basically
The way that science is done now, I feel like it basically decided that there's one modality to understand the world. Yes. So the original question was always what is going on, right? Yeah. And then people came about, went about it in different ways through religion, philosophy, fill in the blank. Right. Science came along. And it was another way of coming at what's going on. Yeah.
But it produced a certain amount of tangible goods through that method that kind of verified it on a different level because it made something that everybody can see regardless to their, you know, inner seeking. So like they're just like, oh, it made a camera and make this and made that. Yeah. And it is a very, very strong tool.
And this is why when he started talking about the space, usually it's a conversation between two guys like, dude, I went to that space. I did this thing. Oh, my God, it was crazy. Blew my mind. Yeah.
But I think what the confusion became then is that that is the ultimate modality, where of course it isn't. So like I always say that- Yeah, well, capital S science for me in the grand scheme of things has to be just the enterprise of human understanding. That's it. which should include all the inner science, which is like what it's like to be you, what it's like to be a society.
It has to do with everything that is contained within what we call existence, including experience and everything else. So contemplative science is part of science, capital S science. And it's only when we're going to start understanding that it's one project And bringing it together. So like the technical stuff, but also the hard problem of consciousness.
Like what is actually the connection between consciousness and all the technical stuff and how it works? And what Zoltan was alluding to is that we just started Code of Reality Inc. So I guess it's just in its infancy. And I asked Zoltan to be on the board of directors just to kind of help guide the process. He has a lot of experience both in building things, understanding what works.
And our ultimate goal is is to basically bring as many smart people from all the possible domains together to work on this problem without feeling the pressure of either being ridiculed or like, we want to create a coherent picture of what it's like to have what we call capitalist science. So like the human, the enterprise of human understanding. Well,
But it doesn't usually come from someone like Zoltan, who's like, on the other hand, you know, like has all these responsibilities and serious stuff and all these businesses riding on his shoulders that he has to make like serious decisions. Hmm. And somehow it all works. And Zoltan always, if you hang out with Zoltan, like just one-on-one, it always looks like he's just hanging out.
not institutionalized, more like how do you create a container for people to come together? There's already things, by the way, this is not necessarily that. So there's, you know, there are scientific endeavors that are doing it in that way or starting to do it in that way. Santa Fe Institute are doing that. That's a known thing. They bring interdisciplinary minds onto a project.
So like if they have a problem in engineering, they would still bring philosophers or even musicians. to think about the problem together. Because there's certain understandings from other domains that are much more holistic if you approach it that way. Now, and those are very important things.
And we want to create something that will put even a bigger emphasis on the fact that, hey, you bring a neuroscientist, a physicist, a really experienced psychonaut, work together to understand. Because I keep hearing these, like, people think that somehow domains shouldn't be talking to each other.
They'll say like, why are you talking about your experience with DMT from the perspective of physics? I'm like, what do you mean? Like, why wouldn't I? Like, it's part of whatever's going on, right? Like, yeah, but that's something that has to do with the mind. I was like, wait a second. Is whatever the mind not somehow related to everything else that is physical? And this is super smart people.
And there's this confusion that somehow there's this separation because of the domains that we've created in our minds. No, that's biology. It has nothing to do with physics. What are you talking about? Of course it has to do with physics. We just don't understand that connection.
So we want to create a container for people to express themselves in that environment in a way that will build towards a common goal versus just having like a patchy kind of interaction online that sometimes maybe somebody will stumble upon some information somebody else did in a different domain. We want to bring it together.
I don't agree. I think it's just broader. So I think it's just like how wide the ontology you include.
Like there's no effort whatsoever. And I had this moment, I'm just going to share this one small anecdote. At this moment, we're sitting with Aaron, the director of the film. Again, shout out to Aaron Vanden. We were at Zoltan's show. We went to see Fifing a Death Punch. And we're sitting there and Zoltan is sitting and talking to everybody after the show.
To be fair, DMTX is doing that. But I would say they are one facet of a much larger attempt at this. And it shouldn't be limited to the way they're doing it. And I think the main difference to what you said about it, I guess you can't quantify it. That's because you didn't have a wide enough of a sample of it. So it was repeatable, but not repeatable enough, right?
Now it's repeatable enough because you have more people doing it more often and they can actually, so you had Dennis on, right? The legendary Dennis McKenna. Yeah. Wait, wait, wait. Wonderful book that he wrote about his life. Oh, The Brotherhood from the Screaming Abyss. Incredible book. And here's the thing.
Security, other people, like all this stuff happening, right? And Aaron and Zoltan are sitting and Zoltan is telling him a story. And then later we spoke to Aaron and he goes like, dude, how does he have time to talk and talk to us? And I go like, I don't know. But I'm like, do you understand that everything around us right now, the arena, the security, the...
What happened to him was particularly interesting to me because he was the one experiencing this incredible opening of whatever happened to them in the Latour era. And it is also the thing that made him recoil and go a different route into science. And then somehow through science, he acquired this...
this separation factor that i feel that that when you trained in proper science it happens because you basically are trained to be less and less fooled by your own inadequacies and thoughts and all that stuff but it's almost like you're now being convinced that there is no place to your convictions and all the stuff that you're experiencing
And the truth is that everything we do is just conviction in the aggregate. Everything we do, like I always say, especially in neuroscience, is some consensus between what we can see that the brain is doing at the time that somebody's reporting something, and then we just collect that data over many, many individuals. But that's the cash values from somebody reporting something to you, right?
So if you have enough of a sample, and this is where things like the code actually come into play, because they're repeatable enough for you to potentially try and actually probe in a way that you would anything else in science. It's not like when you go and see the beings, it's like, well, describe to me the being. Well, it was a big spider. Wait, was it purple? No, it was black. Interesting.
Okay, but you saw a purple one? Yeah. Hmm. I wonder how many years it would take us to reach any kind of consensus this way, especially because we know that the worst kind of data point on the planet is hearsay by a witness, right? So it's like, okay, you have to be able to record directly from the brain, right? But if you have something as concrete as the code,
You can potentially do, like, perturbations to it, see if actually something changes. Now, it might pan out to a different degree and not pan out to other degrees, but that gives you the freedom to actually explore it in that way. Now, to be fair, again, you know, specifically with the code,
people like Gallimore, in a very good faith way, from a scientific standpoint, say, well, you know, I do think that with all my expertise, I'm saying that, yes, there are hallucinations that should be able to be mapped on this perfectly, as you're describing. Fair enough. Let's explore that proposition. There must be ways... The question should never be like, can you explain it away with science?
It should be, okay, is there a counterpoint to what I'm saying? Yes, great. Let's explore how we can discern then whether it is what A or B. We should come up with experiments to make the discernment versus saying, can science explain it? In the way that we perceive it currently, sure, but we should explore how it explains it.
And maybe what we should question is certain assumptions that science makes about the world. Because I think at this point it's pretty clear that at least physicalism, as it's perceived in the most naive way of it, which is like there's just physical matter and then there's just us arising from physical matter, I think that's pretty clearly out. Right.
Just a small correction, I think matters. It wouldn't be the can. It would be a can that is of a completely different gestalt. So you have what's called Gestalt. So they're basically frames, right? So you have, this is the way we perceive the world at the moment. You can think of this level of qualia for each and every one of us as a Gestalt.
Everything that is happening right now, this is a machine that he built. The buses here, everything. Now, obviously, there's other people involved, and obviously, they're doing their jobs and everything. But the mind to put everything together in a way so it works like this lubricated machine, that's all Zoltan. So somehow he put it together in a way that now you can just sit.
So it's like, okay, it has a quality to it that I recognize, that I never think about because it's the water-based women. But this can is part of the Gestalt. It's like, I know. So if another can appears with a different writing on it, you're not going to freak out. You're just like, why does it say these letters? Well-
What happens in DMT, which is why it's so interesting to so many people, that there's no argument about that, the reason it's so unique is because it's a completely different gestalt. It's a completely different thing that you've never experienced before if you've never done it before. That would be equivalent to that Ken you're describing. But even in that space...
And this is where it gets kind of dicey, because on the one hand, Gallimore's point is, the reason that DMT is so interesting from a neuroscientific perspective is that it seems to be extremely coherent, and we know the brain is not just receiving like a camera, but it basically does a lot of guesswork according to what everybody knows to happen, so it's projecting from the inside.
So if something immediately comes to you that you've never seen before of a completely different flavor and it's super coherent, well, that's difficult to explain in neurological terms because the brain is not just, again, receiving like a camera. It should have some form of inner representation of it.
With the case of the code, and this is why it's very unsatisfying because you kind of have to see it to really understand that point. When you project the laser on the surface, the reason that it's very difficult to postulate that it's somehow the result of the light hitting that particular surface in a particular way combined with a really psychedelic substance is...
Because whatever you see is not even on the surface. It's almost like you're now seeing a subspace that is hovering within our space. And it goes infinitely into the z-axis with extreme coherence. And it doesn't kind of dissipate as you would expect a random pattern to be. It's a completely coherent framework. It's its own gestalt. And it's completely coherent on its own right.
Sure, sure.
You mean in DMT in general? Yeah. It depends what you do. Like anything.
It's a choice. You can choose. So some of it would be, this is why it's dicey, because some of it would be mapped on as a result of the extreme condition that your brain is under. And in that way, your brain might be transforming some things you already see and transforming it into something else. But the claim that we're making is there's other things that are not the result of that.
They actually exist and you become aware of them. So now the question is, how do you discern? How do you make that discernment? Which is where the conversation around the word objecthood comes in.
Gallimer's correction, just to be super fair to what I said on your latest podcast, was that Anil Seth is using the word objecthood not to describe some objective component of what real objects would have. Mm-hmm. Now, it's not actually what I was saying, but I understand his correction because maybe it came across as if I was saying that.
and enjoy and not worry about too many things like i said he he travels with a posse of all black belts in brazilian jiu-jitsu and a full dojo just so he gets to also train so he kind of he thought of everything how many black belts do you travel with on your tour the last tour we had seven seven and you guys just what drop a mat out in the out in the driveway and just so i'm carrying my mats and then pretty much i had two video guys two video guys both of them black best the rigger light guys a black belt
So I'm not saying that objecthood, that quality that Anil Seth is talking about, is somehow an objective component and this is how we can discern what's real and what's not real. But it is good enough of a parameter to use to triangulate what might be more that thing that just exists and we become aware of versus the thing that is...
Like a hallucination, where it's just something your brain saw that is now incorporating into a larger cognitive structure that it's making by itself. Because for all intents and purposes, the one point that is constantly being missed, what is physical matter?
Because in the end of the day, even if it's all mind, even if it's idealism and, you know, mind is the most fundamental thing, whatever you picture about the world, something is regular enough that you can't walk through the wall. And I actually asked this when I was out with Galmore, we were like meeting face to face and I asked him like, but what is in the context of everything you know, right?
How would you define what's out there? Like, what is this physical thing? And he goes like, the multi-billion dollar question, man. Like, that is the question. Because even if you do believe that everything is spiritual stuff, ultimately, something is happening that prevents you from going through the wall.
And that part is constantly being overlooked by modern neuroscientists, it seems, that they're saying, no, but it's all, you know, it's all mine. I'm like, sure, but we have to talk about what is it that gives it this quality.
of being physical, because there's clearly a difference between that and what I'm, like, there's a reason why it's so difficult to manipulate the physical stuff, and it's so much easier to manipulate the mind stuff, right? There's a lack of malleability there that needs to be talked about. This is why physics has to enter the picture. And you have to combine our understanding of physics
Because, yes, there are abstractions. Nobody has ever seen an atom and all of that jazz. Sure, that's true. However, these abstractions help us to understand certain functionalities that we can make predictions on, and it checks out. So the reason we can build complicated things is because we understand something about these processes.
So how do these processes then connect to what we call consciousness? Not just from a philosophical perspective, Because where DMT is, is exactly this margin. It is the event horizon between the physical and the non-physical, because it is so profoundly real, and at the same time, not physical.
So it kind of, you know, like the event horizon is like, that's where quantum physics and classical physics meet, because it's such an extreme condition. Extreme conditions allow us to investigate the deeper parts of nature. DMT is an extreme condition,
That's what I meant by the code has objecthood. It's clear to you it's there. Just by observing it. So now it's very difficult in linguistic terms to, so to give you the, you know, people now email me all the time, obviously with a billion theories, right? And there are as many theories as there are people, right? That's the easy part. You can come up with all kinds of theories.
What I'm personally interested in is what is it that we can postulate about the world along the lines of what we're talking about here with like the connection between consciousness and physicality that is actionable, repeatable, testable. Most of it will not pan out, just like in everything else in science.
But my point is it should squarely fall within the purview of what mainstream science is, and it should stop being this margin thing that we're doing, because it is the central substance of what, in fact, is going on. We have to be able to say something concretely about what it is instead of keep relying on very vague general statements like, well, the brain is a very powerful machine.
Like, okay, well, you said nothing. Because like, sure, you just said I have a magic wand that can do anything. That didn't explain nothing. So what is it that that magic wand is doing specifically to make A or B or C happen, and how it relates to what we can actually probe? I'm in the habit of talking about some of my ideas, but only to illustrate that there are concrete ways
along which we're thinking about this. They might not pan out, but here are propositions. What I'm trying to do is to encourage more smart people to think about this in these terms, in serious terms. I think the holographic principle is exactly correct. And there is a way to map. So the holographic principle is a principle in physics. I think we talked about it a little bit last time.
But essentially, I want to see if we can map onto what is happening with the laser and us and the universe in terms of a hologram. What is each component in the setup of a hologram that maps onto what our real world is? Because the holographic principle is one of the most promising frames in physics at the moment.
So I think it's exactly correct, which is that we are a holographic projection from a two-dimensional filament. I think we're a four-dimensional projection from a three-dimensional filament, but that will take us far afield. But I think that in a hologram, you have the source light coming in. It's being split by a beam splitter. Each beam goes its separate ways.
This one goes to a set of two mirrors or one mirror. And this one goes to a set of two mirrors or one mirror. And then this one goes to an object, hits a screen.
okay that screen records the information that the beam hit after you already passed the object so if the the first beam comes from here hits the mic from the mic it goes to a screen the screen records the information just like in a photo yeah okay now the difference between a photo and a hologram is that the second beam that was split from the original beam comes from the set of mirrors from the side now
And it meets this first beam here right before it hits the surface. So it's stereoscopic. Essentially, it measures not just the amplitude, but also the phase shift. And that gives you this ability to basically measure more information from all directions of whatever it hit, the mic in this case, instead of just hitting the two-dimensional imprint of the mic.
So what I think, here's one proposition of how to think about this problem. And we'll see if it checks out. I think that we, our consciousness, whatever it is, this is called the reference light, the one that comes from here. So I think we are the reference light. Literally, our consciousness is a form of light.
It's a reference light that hits the source light that came from here and where they meet, the source light and the reference light. Where's the source light coming from? Big question. So that might be the source, God, whatever you want to call it, okay? If you want to use esoteric terms, I don't know what the source is, I have no idea. Whatever started it all, okay?
But where they meet at the sheet, which in our case I would say it's the bulk, which is space-time, okay? The sheet that registers everything is the substrate of whatever physical matter is, whatever space-time is, okay? So where the reference light and the source light meet, that instance...
Together with the bulk, they create the triangle that creates conscious moment, conscious moment, conscious moment. It's the information being registered in real time. And I call it the pistons of consciousness. Like it's that, like instances of actual consciousness. Now, this sounds super theoretical, esoteric, cool. I think there's a way to map this in a way that is testable.
Because we can say, okay, if this is the reference light and this is the... If we are the reference light, certain things would be true and other things would not be true. What are they? For example, there would be a related angle to perception, specifically with light, so diffraction, for example, that would yield a certain kind of observation the second we get to the details of it.
and wouldn't yield other kinds of observations. So if I make the turn 30 degrees, it would create a certain coherence of the image. And if I go 50 degrees, it might not create the same amount of, now we have to get to the details of that and I need a lot smarter people than myself to actually like think about that because there's a lot of math involved.
But here's an example of how you can think about this specifically. You have to come up with a theoretical framework that would lend itself perfectly for experimentation. And then you have to run the tests. Ah, we tried 30 degrees. Didn't work. That must have been wrong. As Feynman famously said, if it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong. That's the part that I feel that is missing.
You either have people...
that are so far deep into the experiential side that they simply don't care about experiment they just want to keep everything being whatever they think it is and you have the other side the extreme on the other side which you have you have this form of rigidity where people just go like no it's only what can we can verify with external tools yes that's another component of it i agree but it is not the whole picture there's certain things that we as the collectors of data that we are
can experience that at the moment other instruments can't, and that should be taken into account. It complicates things, I agree, because people have aspirations, ideas, confabulations. We're not a perfect, you know, thing. But even though it complicates things, it's the only way to go.
Because you have to include what we're experiencing if we see that we can, you know, recruit the right kind of people that are interested in finding out what's true instead of, you know, constantly just believing whatever it is.
So you have to kind of bring it to a central point where you both take into account the hard experiments, but you also take into account our agreements of what we think is going on in that instance. But this is just an example. I'm not saying it will necessarily pan out, but there are ways to think about these things in concrete ways, and I want to encourage more of that.
And I do think that actually explains quite a bit. So for example, if you look at a hologram from the side, Like a regular hologram, right? If we can envision it. If you notice, the reason I'm saying we're a four-dimensional hologram and not a third-dimensional hologram is because the hologram, when you look at it, it's actually three-dimensional only.
It's implied because it's a two-dimensional sheet. The third dimension is implied. The fact that it looks like it has depth, right? But there's no actual degree of freedom. If you would be that hologram, you can't actually move in the third direction. It's just implied. But you can move in two degrees of freedom. You can't walk around it and see it from all angles.
If you would be that hologram, you can't, right? But we can move in three dimensions, which means that we can't possibly... The third one is not implied. The third one is actual, which means... So there has to be one more dimension that is implied, and I'm claiming that's time. The reason we cannot move in time on our whim, because time is implied. It seems to be there.
The change from moment to moment that we experience seems to be there, just like the third dimension is implied in a hologram. But we have three degrees of freedom. So we are a four-dimensional hologram projected on a two-dimensional sheet, which is the bulk, which is space-time itself. Now you can say, well, the bulk is actually four-dimensional. I'm saying that...
time is actually implied the bulk is the surface of it is three-dimensional and again this actually lends itself to real experimentation like is there ways to curve the surface in a way that we can see that if we do that then time would appear to move slower or faster depending on our perception of it which we know to actually happen right and again this is what we can do forward or we can do forward time travel like that's been proven
Well, at least your perception of it is, right? It's like somebody charges you $50 to move 50 minutes in the future, and then you just go in there. It's like, all right, it'll take you 50 minutes to move 50 minutes in time. You have to somehow explain what appears to us to be the case in terms of what we think the largest structure is, which is what the business of physics is in, right? Mm-hmm.
It's just that it's constantly omitting the first person experience. And I'm saying you cannot omit it anymore. You have to somehow explain the fact that we're experiencing things a certain way. It's part of existence. And neuroscience will tell you, well, you know, these perceptions, these apparent time changes in your perception, they're just in your perception. Fair enough.
But is there a way to test for that? Is it possible that time for you is actually moving slower, just like physically it's moved slower, closer to a mass in physics? Is it possible that it's actually, your brain is taking less computational steps. Is it possible that it's actually moving slower because of whatever happens in your mind?
I don't know, but I'm claiming there's a way to discern these things and it needs to be entertained more seriously in that way.
I don't know. One thing before you jump into that, I do want to say because it's important. We just conducted the first officially Magnus experiment that for all intents and purposes, I think most likely is actually bunk. Like I think it actually doesn't work. Okay. But here's an example of us actually trying something. Okay.
Something happened there one time, actually with my fiancé, weirdly enough. All the subjects, including myself, we couldn't see any difference. So the experiment was we put a magnet behind the surface, we projected the laser on the surface from the other side, we smoked the empty, we looked at it, And I thought we're going to see some change because if a magnet is powerful enough in the back.
Behind the surface. So if I just have a sheet of paper, I put a magnet here so you can't see it from here, right? Right. And then you project the laser from this side. Yep. And then I'm smoking the empty and I'm seeing the code. Yeah.
I thought that if the magnet is powerful enough, I would be able to see some kind of a change from this side that will tell me where the magnet is even though I can't see the magnet. You understand? Understand, yeah. I couldn't. Nothing, no change. So far for us, no. However, there was one instance where we had a camera from above that almost like sees both sides at the same time.
My fiance, she just kind of jumped in and she just like, probably Aaron got very mad. He's like, we can't use this for them. But for the experiments that might be viable, she saw, well, she didn't see, but she, I guess, guessed Five times in a row the magnet was. Exactly. So that was strange because I have to admit I didn't see any difference.
On the battlefield?
So either there's some other component here we don't understand or she just got super lucky. I don't know. We have to look through the data. But I just want to emphasize this because this is how it should be
this is how people should go about this they should try whatever it is they think that might work i don't know i don't know why we didn't think of actually putting because we had not that powerful magnets but they were pretty powerful like 100 pound magnets and we should have used more of them like also on the laser itself to see if anything and we had uh uh my good friend pablo was an engineer he helped us create the rotating magnets experiment by persinger uh he created helped us create a device who by the way was suggested by john chavez shout out to john
who also, by the way, invested in our film quite a bit, so thank you, John. And basically, the rotating magnets is something we can maybe put the laser in between and rotate the magnets and see if that does a difference. We didn't do that. We're learning. The point, the larger point is... There should be more of that.
We should just test this in this way, and if it doesn't pan out, it doesn't pan out, but we're going to keep trying. And I want to encourage more of that. This insistence that where I feel that I mostly depart with the way that Andrew chooses to go about this. Again, I have tremendous respect for him, and we had, since then, really great conversations.
But where I would openly disagree with him is that there's this insistence that DMT is so crazy that there's no way anytime soon we will ever be able to make sense of it. I'm saying that attitude actually shoots you in the foot. Because if you decided that, of course you're not going to make progress. You have to believe that it's possible to actually discern certain things.
And maybe even he does think that in other ways, maybe he just disagrees with the specific way in which I'm doing it. But this is the way I choose to go about it. And I want to encourage more people to do that and not to get caught up in what they want to be true. If it doesn't work out, say it doesn't work.
I'm claiming it's as real as Jupiter is there.
Oh, yeah. Did I send you the... Laszlo, our VR guy, he's much more than a VR guy, but he's also a VR guy. He created a fully immersive environment with the representation of the console in it. And it really delivers how real it is. Now, this is like Zoltan says, an 8-bit version of the real thing. Right, right. But it delivers how real that is for me. But that's just me.
The reason the console is much less impactful is because I don't know what to do to make other people see the console. Oh, right.
No, it just appears. It's as real as this mic for me. By the way, the console, this is a small anecdote and unrelated to, not going to be that interesting probably, but the console was doing something when we were shooting that experiment that it never did before.
Usually the console opens up and it has a lot of sections all over the room and only the very small sliver of menus come and like follows me, but the rest of the console just kind of hovers in the room. It's almost like the body of the console, right? It has different sections. One of the sections, the more physical sections, the one that is just always there. Yeah.
came out and started scanning the people that were looking at the laser I've never seen that before yeah it was like a plate that came off it and it was scanning them like it was interested in what we were doing I've never seen that before again this is one of these like you know trip report I don't know what to do with that it's not a people say hey can you release the next video of the console because I'm working on one I'm like dude I I need to have some information there that I didn't have the first time and I don't have that yet
I want to say something new. I don't want to just keep repeating, you know, what we already said. And if I'm not sure, I'm not sure. Zoltan, how many times have you seen this code?
It's just one of those things. By the way, did I tell you that we might have figured out a way to see the code without the molecule? No. What? Yeah. So David Carter, the other board member, who approached me a few months ago with the opening line, you don't know me, but I've been following you for a while, which is...
and disconcerting i get that a lot yeah no no he's he's incredible uh carter's incredible so he basically i guess the best way to describe is uh who he is is a large he would say is a organizational expert but i think he's a large scale problem solver so basically he worked from everything from government projects software development is big into crypto and ai now
He understands what makes big processes work. He even worked on some classified projects. And he said, look, about a year ago, back then when you reached out to me, I ordered the laser. I saw the code. I never reached out to you, but I started basically talking about it in my circles. And because I have a certain reputation, people listen to me.
He said, when I would go to these conferences, I would like, when we're at the end of whatever conference we are, I would like whip out the laser and start showing them. And I said, wait, what were you showing them? He's like, well, here's the thing. I have a certain kind of reputation. So this was a prop. I was removing one more step for them to venture into.
So instead of me telling them, there's this laser, I'm like, oh, here's the laser. And I would just turn it on. It's just a simple, de facto laser. But I was telling them, I've tried this. I've seen the code. And I was explaining where you would see it. And people got so interested, because they are looking for this next step of understanding.
So David recently told me that, I haven't seen it myself yet, but he is, you know, there's a certain, well, reputation that he has with like being accurate with what he's saying. He said he thinks they figured out a way to see some visibility of the code with these old sensors of Sony cameras that had this night capability.
And if we string a bunch of them together, I think we'll be able to see it much more coherently. Now, if it's true... That will automatically change the conversation entirely. And there's also a team from Japan that apparently from 2014 was collecting data from light coming from stars. And they discovered that they can actually discern statistically at this point pretty concretely that...
There's information in there. There's some kind of a code. There's some kind of glyphs running in there that is not periodelia. They can actually discern that now with machine learning. It's not what? Periodelia, which your tendency of your brain to just make shapes out of nothing because your brain is really good at creating patterns. Yeah.
So they can discern that this is not it, that it's actually real information of some sort. So all of these things are kind of converging. But I just wanted to mention that because Zoltan keeps referring to the end of childhood of humanity. Yes.
I really think that all of the stuff that I mentioned before, these crescendos that are all arising at the same time, the reason that you have all these very animated conversation here about God and the disclosure and all of this stuff, is because something is happening that is bigger than us, but not in an esoteric sense, but in an actual sense. It's actually happening.
And the reason that I guess there's, maybe urgency is the wrong word, but maybe more of an attention needed on this than currently is being allocated to it. That is an important component. we can no longer pretend that it's just a nine to five, we go to work, everything is normal.
Even the people that think of it more in terms of like the, I think the UAP community, the disclosure is a good example is because I've had the conversations with people from that community. And when I ask the question, have you ever considered what you're going to do the day after the disclosure, there's always silence. Because that's really the important part. Okay, disclosure, now what?
How do you envision yourself being a moment after?
That's exactly it.
The process is just a result of the much deeper space.
Or to see a way to substantiate it on a screen or to send the information directly into some kind of a chat GP.
So that's two separate things. One is the people attacking it, which they will. It's just natural.
That's fine. That's fine. So that's a non-point for me. People can attack it all day. If it's real, like I always say, as Terrence used to say, it can take the pressure. I don't mind that. Exactly. The second part of your question is, even Gallimore, you haven't watched the full video yet, but at the end, he says... I watched, I finished it last time. Oh, you finished, okay.
So you know how he says, which is actually a self-contradicting point, which I alluded to in my response video, which is, he says that... priming doesn't have this longevity that people attributed to it with the code and yet he himself somehow priming doesn't have it doesn't have this longevity so priming is if I give you a cold drink to hold if you don't know me
and I ask you general questions, most people would have more negative kind of things to say about the person. Same thing with a warm drink and the other way, okay? That's priming. I'm priming a certain state that makes certain general occurrences more likely. Priming does not work with specific content, hyper-specific content that I was going to convince you.
If I say, so here's, this is easily testable. If people think it's priming, take a group of people that you know for sure didn't hear about this, right? Sure. And then tell them about elephants. Inject it subliminally. Talk to them about elephants. Do all of that. And then show them the laser. Yes. Okay. If they still tell you they see Japanese letters...
can we then agree that this is not it, right? So that's easily testable. The other point that people make, which is like, oh, but, which by the way, I've done, I've told people something else and they came back and said, I didn't say what you told me, but I saw these weird, they said Chinese. Like me, I saw the gears. The gears that you see in the beginning, yeah. But it's just the way it appears.
But the other point of like, yeah, but if you do make it big enough, I was like, okay, hold on. So you're telling me that you believe that if one guy can say something convincingly enough, You can then convince the entire earth that something is there. Well, then I think that's a whole phenomenon all by itself we should study then. Because what are you talking about?
People go to the DMT space all the time, right? How do you know about the machine elves? because I've listened to people talk about it all the time. Exactly. So are we saying, oh, we shouldn't talk about machine elves because if we're going to keep talking about it, it's going to be conformational bias. And then how do we know if they're real or not?
Well, the only difference here is that I'm claiming that this is actually real, which was already in the zeitgeist, already in the conversation. I think it's the level of emphasis that I'm giving it that people are uncomfortable with. They're uncomfortable with the amount of certainty I have about it, which I get, but at a certain point you have to admit when you do know what you know.
So the reason that I'm saying things with this amount of conviction, the things that I am saying I'm knowing with conviction, again, to remind everybody, the only thing I'm saying that I know for sure is that whatever it is, people say, why are you calling it the code of reality? I don't know, it's a placeholder. It kind of looks like a self-executing code.
Do I know it codes for all the environment and everything? Of course not. Here's what I know for sure. Whatever that is, exists on its own side even when you're not looking. It's a real thing. Or if you want to say, yeah, but everything is mind. Okay. Even within that frame, whatever it is that you mean to say, the external environment within the perception that everything is mind. Okay.
However you want to play the language game, it is an external thing to you as you are perceiving yourself right now. That's a real thing. That's all I'm claiming. Why I know this with absolute amount of certainty? Well, There's a certain long process I went through personally over years and years and years before I even spoke about this publicly, where I actually never assumed anything about it.
I just allowed it to unfold. I just kind of looked at it for what it is. I didn't really land on any conclusion or anything. And eventually with a lot of hammering into me with like insistence from the other space to say, Yo, what else do we need to show you? And I'm like, wait, so you're telling me they're like, yes, yes, it's what this is. I was like, oh, they're like, thank you.
So then eventually you go, okay, I know this is real. I no longer feel the obligation to pretend to think that maybe. I don't think that maybe. I know for sure. Does that mean that everybody has to have this amount of conviction? Of course not. But I don't feel apologetic for the amount of conviction I have because at a certain point there is such a state of the brain, of the mind, called knowing.
It's a very limited knowing. It's a very small portion. I'm not claiming to know the ultimate secrets of the universe. But I know I can't walk through the wall. Do I know this? Yes, I know this. Do you know this? Yes. And anybody who insists otherwise is just playing a weird language game, right? You know you can't walk through the wall. Let's not be silly.
Okay, I know that the code is there as much as I know that I can't walk through the wall. So at a certain point, I have every right to have the conviction that I have, and I can defend these convictions. And anybody has the right to criticize my convictions, which is exactly the situation we're in.
The move that the other side sometimes makes, which is like, if you would just have less conviction, I would be more comfortable with it. that's not, that's you. That's not how this works. That's fine. But we're going to have the conversation with the amount of conviction we're going to have for both ends about it.
And the only thing that would substantiate it ultimately is if something comes from it, if something that can actually comes to fruition from it. Up until this point, the main criticism was, well, if these things are real to any degree, how come they always so elusive? How come they don't really leave any mark or like real information behind? Well, here it is. Here's the thing.
Let's start playing with it. And now people push the horizon even further.
That seems to be an arbitrary point.
I tell you why it doesn't map onto the way I see it. Because the answer to your question, is it possible that it's not meant to be entertained by everybody and it's not supposed to help us, the answer is, of course, maybe sure, maybe you're right. But that's a lot of maybes, right?
The more reasonable way to proceed, I would say, is to look at how any other big understanding in human history ever happened, which is always a correction of the map. The reason that in some domains it might be okay to hold opposing views about different things, but in other domains it isn't. I forget who gave that example, but it's a perfect example.
The example is if you think you're on a ship and you go out and you just open the window, crack the window because you want some more air, but you happen to be on the submarine and you get confused, it really matters. No, forget about the fact that you can't really open the window in a submarine, but let's say you could.
The story you sent me looked like... Did you read it? I just saw the title because it was in the middle of the night. But the title seemed to have been implying that it's for healing, like a trauma.
The point is, if you don't understand the situation you're in, you might make moves that can be detrimental. So making the map match the territory is a very important, it's a very important endeavor. And just notice that whenever people sailed outside of the domain of the current conviction of society, either intellectually or physically into the ocean,
You're going to fall off the face of the earth. Just stay here. Hey, wolves are going to come to the village. Either you like it or not. You have to understand always the larger environment you're in, it's just the nature of the game. And if then you want to say, well, look, I understand the game has worked this way so far, but maybe this is it. This is the limit. Well, that's an arbitrary limit.
And it would be asked on the level that you can entertain. So for an amoeba, the form of the question would be, how can I be more comfortable? Oh, this is too hot. I'm going to move to the shade. But the question always drives the process. That's a completely natural thing in existence itself.
So to then put an arbitrary stop to it because of other things we think we understand, because notice that everything you described,
they're also conceptual frameworks right there are also other things that people claim to understand so it's just a competition between the frames of understanding yeah so the the example with the submarine more illustrates what if there's something you're supposed to do and you're not going to do because you didn't understand where you are is there a cliff there and you thought it was just a two-dimensional shape but it's more than that so you have to understand that you're on that path right and so the answer to most times like should you know
Almost in every instance, it's yes. It's always better to know and then to do something about it versus not know. There are some limited cases that I would say, like, if a meteor is hurling down towards us and we have three weeks to live, is it better to know? In this limited instance, maybe not. Because in three weeks, we're just going to panic and it's not going to be better. Right.
But these cases are much more rare than all the other cases. Like, is it good for us to know how to synthesize polio or to build the atom bomb?
well it's good for us to know that that's a possibility and then kind of work around it because to say we shouldn't have never discovered it that's just postponing the moment in which it will be discovered someday you know it's always better to know something and then to do something about it properly and that's why i'm saying the attitude of the monkey is we keep pointing to these external things is the blame but it's like if if we can get our act together then we can stop pointing right
But it would also not be foundable, don't you think?
It wouldn't be foundable even in principle.
now it works for me this experience that you've had some people call it the void i've had it um michael pollan talks about it actually on the joe rogan experience where he's he was so grateful when he came back that it was content he was like right oh my god rick strassman also talk about this it's an it's a it happens to a lot of people i don't know if he specifically i think he said he was on a five meo dmt and he went to like a white room
Yeah, the wide out or the void. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the thing, to me, I'm hearing this and I've had this and Zoltan is absolutely right. It is the most gutting feeling you can possibly have. But I always say, I think there's still something to be said about the fact that you're experiencing it from still from some unitary perspective.
You're still an ego experiencing the ultimate just loneliness, right? So that's why it's so gutting. But because on the other hand, you have other people that are talking about like, you know, when you experience that, it's just the biggest bliss of like the fullest freedom.
but I would say that specifically with the code not necessarily with this because with this I am open to interpretation and all of that there might be a balanced place I agree with that with the code in particular something else jumps at me which is the fact that it is recognizable on the level of a human because if this is some kind of a thing that codes for you know the function of reality it could have easily been just the wiggles just the signals
Why does it appear as a language that is discernible to creatures like us? Right. That is the question that makes me feel like that's a breadcrumb versus... And the fact that it was... It wasn't a hypostense. It wasn't like a laser was on and I smoked some and I saw something. I was like, what is that? That's not how it happened. I aimed there for years and something was giving me hints.
So all of these things together, and it didn't feel like one of these, to the degree that I can discern energies, the energy of whatever that was guiding, it was light. It was like a blissful energy. It wasn't like the other thing. So in that sense, can it mean that we now have to come and face something that is difficult to face? Maybe.
But that means that we were led to that and that was part of what we need to go through in the next step of evolution. And this part of the conversation, whenever I get to it, I'm very careful because I don't really know what is unfolding like Zoltan said. But my strong intuition is that it is unavoidable and we're going to experience it in different ways either way.
Like we're all going to experience this in some form, this transitional moment. And it is inevitable. It's shrouded with so much speculation that I'm not sure that... I think that more words confuse people than do any good. But the most general thing I can say about it is that everybody kind of feel that something is happening.
And either you're a person, you know, some kind of an aboriginal person somewhere that you have zero technology. It's going to communicate to you with as much coherence that it needs to in a way that you understand. as to anybody else who's living with a super advanced technology. This might be just our version of how it's trying to express itself.
And I know it sounds super esoteric, but my intuition is that whatever it is, we don't, people talk about 2050, 2040, singularity. My feeling is we have maybe two years. This is not in 20 years from now. This is now. It's now, it's happening. So it's no longer a drill. And the degree to which some of us can understand it and help become part of the process they're trying to unfold,
which a lot of it is actually letting go. Letting go of the self-control, letting go of what we think we understand. This is a very big practice for me at the moment because the more I talk about it, the more the weight of certain kinds of responsibilities kind of dawns on me.
and then the only thing i can do that keeps me sane is to constantly drop into the space of like feeling what it feels like to be the unit that is doing this talking about this if i start telling you something and inside i have this like very strong impulse i was like okay maybe i'm not supposed to talk about that so there's like maybe not right now so i'm constantly aware of that
Is it anything more than some ideas I have in my psychology and maybe nothing more? Maybe. Maybe. Completely open to that. But we have to stand somewhere to make some assumptions with certain amount of certainty. You will never get to a place... You surf, right? Yes. Great. In any activity that has real outcomes in real time, there's certain things that become super clear.
You have to have a certain amount of, one of those things is you have to have a certain amount of conviction about your ability to do something to be able to do it. The more you second guess it, there's way less chances you're going to enter flow or any state in which you can actually execute a task.
How it exactly happened when you were on the wave perfectly, every single muscle of the body maneuver you might not be aware of. But how to drop into that space is the thing you become better and better at the more you do it, right? But notice that there has to be some level of conviction. The more you second guess it, the chances you're going to crash are way higher. And that's with everything.
If you want to entertain a scientific idea, you have to have a certain amount of conviction that it might work. I'm not talking about biases. It's like you have to know that there's maybe a cash value there. Okay, then you proceed.
If you second guess it to a degree where you're not even going to like, well, it can be infinite million other things, you're not going to have enough of a drive to even act on it, right? So that's where I'm coming from. I'm going to entertain this frame, see if something comes out of it. I am in full liberty after a certain amount of time go, you know what? We tried it. Didn't work.
Let's go back to the old frame. It's a legitimate move. There's no problem with that. And I think what most people don't recognize is that we're always doing that. Like, even our current conviction of the scientific zeitgeist, this is also a form of a thing we... We're agreed upon. That's a good way to do this so far. It's going to take a lot to replace it if we ever get to replace it. Fine.
But you have to have a certain amount of conviction to kind of go in the face of it, but not even resist it. I always say whatever it is that we're going to find has to also match everything else we already understand. It's never going to replace everything. That's not how it works. So I guess my bottom line is there's a certain fluidity
and a certain amount of rigidity that we have to constantly play with that can help us find our place in this unfolding. And I'm fully aware that this kind of talk immediately sounds more like a sage would be talking. But I don't think it has to be. I think we can talk about things that may be unfolding that are greater than our current ability to understand.
in a way that makes sense to us collectively and personally without constantly asking one another to pay a penalty for describing it in that way or another way. If I'm understanding what you're trying to do, I'm not going to waste energy or try and correct every single word you say I'm just, I feel you. Like, okay, I understand what you're trying to say to me.
And if you're struggling with saying it, I might even help you say it, right? That should be more of the attitude. And that also holds the seed in all human endeavor, in science, in politics, in everything. If we have a little bit more charity towards one another, it's like, what are you really trying to say? Okay, I get it.
And again, it sounds I'm aware that what I'm saying right now sounds like, bro, what are you talking about? Well, you were just talking about science. Now you're talking about some kind of a human interaction. It's part of it. If everything in science is done, we have the scientific method. Awesome. Let's go with it. We don't have to be dicks about it.
Scientists don't have to be dicks to one another to achieve an accolade. That's part of it. If you're going to work together on something major, wouldn't it be better if we also feel comfortable and safe to do that in a way we can explore? It's like, oh, that didn't pan out. But we don't have to make you feel like shit about it.
All right. Are we rolling? All right, everybody. Thank you for coming. I'm glad we were able to make this happen, Jack. Welcome back. Thank you. Mary, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Callie, nice to meet you. Good to see you. So we wanted to make this happen. Jack, you were here about two weeks ago. Two months ago. Yeah, that's what I meant to say. Two months ago.
And to, to Callie's point or to the point that was made about the book, not having vaccines mentioned in it or not having the COVID shots mentioned in it, whether it was intentional or not, that is definitely something like if that was a book that I was writing, that is something I would absolutely think about whether I want the book to get out there, get picked up by a publisher and gain any sort of success.
I know that if I talk about that, there is a way higher chance that that thing is going to get hit the chopping block and not get out there. Like I said, I don't know if it was intentional.
So RFK doesn't want to pull the COVID shots?
Good. This says Casey was floated to be the head of the what? The FDA. Okay.
Yeah.
Also, we've talked about Kevin McKiernan quite a bit, but I don't think we've really alluded. So the elevator pitch of his background is he sort of blew the whistle on when he got his hands on some vials of the actual Pfizer vaccine. And he discovered in his lab that there were DNA plasmid contamination inside.
Right.
And it's, he's simply just stating data. He's not like, he has no, he's not incentivized. Right. Right.
The data's been sitting there for years now. Walk us through it. Hold on a second. I think the obvious biggest problem with this is that nobody can be informed on the truth about it. Because I can have somebody in here like Kevin McKiernan, who's an expert in this stuff, and then YouTube will pull the thing off of the internet. Which has happened. Which just happened.
Listen, thank you guys very much. We just did three hours. I think that this is really important that we did this. I think it was really cool that we all got together and got to some sort of consensus on our agreement. Whether we agree with each other's angles on approach or not, it seems like we all have the same overall... goals. So again, thank you, Callie for coming.
I really appreciate it, Mary. And then Jack coming all the way from El Salvador to, to do this.
I know you do to hash this out. I think this is really important for the, especially for the people that are listening to it. So, um, so thanks. Thanks Danny. Night world.
So so there's no transparency on one side. Anybody who questions these products
on the internet gets completely silenced i think that is the number one issue which is like we're not going out and banning fruit loops everybody knows fruit loops are bad for you everybody knows smoking new ports are bad for you but people you have a choice right you have a choice to do it and a choice not to do it and i want to say something about rfk because you know we have been fighting so hard the last four years to get this information out to the public
For people who are listening who aren't familiar with that law, can you explain it for us?
Let me answer the question. We have to let each other talk and breathe. It's hard to do with four people. So we're just going to make sure that we give everyone a chance to speak and then we take our turns trying not to talk over each other because it makes it unlistenable for people that are listening.
Okay.
What do you mean specifically by that?
Where did your mom live? Hold on. One second. I want to ask a question first. I want to ask, you mentioned there was a spiritual awakening your sister had. Yeah. What was the point for you? Was there a specific jump-off point or spiritual awakening from you to step away from lobbying? Yeah, I'll get to that. So...
And to be fair, Callie does talk a lot about the pharmaceutical industry and pharmaceutical drugs. Not so much about vaccines.
Right, understood. There is a huge stigma and a huge groupthink that is attached to the vaccine conversation because people know you get blasted off the internet. You get completely scrubbed if you talk about that and you make that your main talking point. So my question would be, is there- Which was not my- Did I get blasted off the internet? You did not. You are a- Well, I wonder why.
Jack, you are a unicorn. But Callie, is there a strategic reason that you may be, and I can see a reasonable reason why you would choose not to attack the vaccines and try to go a different route and then come later and take it one piece at a time, piecemeal the problem.
And ever since then, and I think even before then, you have been fired up to say the least. Um, about Callie and his sister Casey and some of the messaging that they are pushing on various podcasts and social media. They are talking a lot about the hyper processed foods and pharma.
Right. So, Mary, I know we're... like almost an hour into this podcast, but let's give you like a brief introduction, like your background.
Casey meaning Callie's sister.
I think that's why this conversation is so important. And I also think that that's why it's admirable that Callie suggested we actually do this and he come here and talk to you guys. If he was some sort of nefarious Trojan horse, I don't think he would have done that.
And what kind of people are they? What age group and what specifically?
So you're saying it could have something to do with a jab that she got decades ago?
Yes or no?
Where are we at? All right, we have to, let's try to, Jack, let's just, let's try to be a little, let's try to be a little bit more reasonable just talking to each other.
There you go.
Okay.
Heart rate, HRV, that kind of stuff.
Light, technology, the jabs. You think he's trying to take the eye off the ball? Yes.
Do you think it's the best idea just to ban them? Or do you think it's the best idea? The mRNA platform needs to be banned.
He's talking about when we originally had a podcast scheduled, and then you had to reschedule it until 2025. And now you're back in.
And you've been questioning, uh, I think a lot to do with like their background, where they come from and, and their messaging in particular. Um, And Callie, I think that you feel that some of the stuff Jack's saying is untrue and in bad faith. Essentially, you hit me up about two weeks ago saying you'd be more than willing- Like a month ago. Like a month ago. Yeah.
So I would absolutely not say to get corruption out of the social media platforms like YouTube and Twitter and all of these social media platforms that are basically monopolies that control all information in the world and making it so they cannot be infiltrated by government agencies or big pharma.
I'm talking about the conversation specifically, like conversations like we have with Kevin McKiernan, where they get taken. So when you have somebody who's questioning these things, there is a policy called the medical misinformation policy on YouTube, which I'll make it very clear up front.
Before we release this podcast, I'll put a little stinger up there that says that we're clearly not doing that here. None of this is medical information. But there are policies that are written in there that are very loose that can take things with anybody who questions any of these stuff, completely wipe it off the internet.
That's when you Google her name, when you type her name into YouTube, there's nothing except for literally one minute clips from like news stations talking about how she got beat by the Methodist hospital.
You do. And I think you think it's possible that a lot of these people, these high level people in politics and Bobby included from what you alluded to with your comment for your first conversation with Bobby and Rick, that they aren't educated on any of this stuff. And if they aren't educated on any of this stuff, for example, there's no excuse at this point.
Non-native EMFs, baby.
You contacted me and said, I'll come do a podcast with Jack. Let's try to get in the room and try to hash your stuff out in real time. Well, to be honest-
I do. I do. I do. He knows, like if he is in this world and he understands how to talk to these people and communicate with these folks, like you understand, you do understand that saying that sending everyone to Guantanamo Bay is like an unrealistic, it sounds crazy, right? No, it doesn't. Let me ask you a question.
Jack, Jack, Jack, Jack. Do you? Because he doesn't. No, I understand what you're saying, but what I'm trying to... Do you think we should be sending people to Guantanamo Bay?
The videos that you... You have all the stuff he sent, but... Yes, yes. I have everything. I have everything.
On the Rogan podcast specifically, the JRE episode, she did mention vaccines. And Megyn Kelly and every... And you guys talked a lot about Ozempic and other pharmaceutical drugs as well.
Are there any good pics that he's made?
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I feel that. I do feel that. I do feel there's a sense of optimism. I do. Not in health. In general, I do.
Jack, that's not what I'm saying. Hold on, hold on. We can't scream over Jake.
Is there anything Cali could say that would help you feel differently? No, not anymore. Nothing.
You won't be effective.
I think that's kind of what we're doing right now is so as long as this episode doesn't get blown, you know, blasted off YouTube for some reason.
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No. Kennedy has been the most outspoken person in the past on these vaccines in this country.
And he wrote the book about Fauci, which is literally all about this stuff. Right. It's a great book. Fabulous book. It is a great book. But you can tell that he's been... And why do you think specifically that he has changed his tune?
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I agree with that.
How do you suggest they get this message to the forefront of the people?
Yeah. What he just said.
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Are you saying you're not willing, though?
Isn't it suicide for these folks to literally ban something that was mandated two years ago? Isn't that suicide? Yes.
Yeah, and it's very clear, especially with people like you who have been outspoken with it. And I think it's a very good thing that you're doing this and you've garnered a ton of attention on X. I mean, you have like over half a million followers on X. And meanwhile, simultaneously, you cannot be found on YouTube. I think that speaks volumes.
And it was written during COVID. Is that true? It doesn't have the word vaccine in it once. It doesn't. I read it. I can tell you.
If you want to have a career.
my following guest is one of the world's leading classical philologists and experts in ancient greek who was famously accused of demon possession and portal opening by the catholic church before he was ejected by his university due to the highly disturbing nature of this episode it had to be heavily censored with parts redacted i know you can handle it but youtube can't if you really want to see the parts that were cut out and avoid the ads it's available on patreon hammer that subscribe button below
Check out their full lineup and get 15% off your first order at TrueWork.com slash Danny. That's T-R-U-E-W-E-R-K dot com slash Danny. It's linked below. Now back to the show.
The first Christ was Lady Babylon.
We've been trying to set up a proper debate today. with you and a biblical scholar, and we can't get anyone to step in here and talk to you. I think people are afraid of not just what you're saying, but your performative behavior, I think really confuses and terrifies people.
And what's the fifth? Resurrection?
And prophets were people who were bombed on drugs.
No, it's great. Vision. But what do you say to all the people online? There was many of them who said when you're... And people that I've had on this podcast since that say... There is this semantic range and the word Christ had many different meanings. And just because that you say it was a drug term doesn't mean that that's the only meaning it had.
There were many other readings and you're broad brushing the word Christ to mean what you want it to mean.
Late Bronze, so what age?
I think it makes it great. It makes it so much more fun. Why do you think they run... Like I said, I think they run because they don't know. I think they're terrified by the performative behavior that you put on. You're theatrical in the way that you translate this stuff and the way that you teach this stuff on your YouTube channel. It's fun and it's cinematic and it's thought-provoking.
Where do the arrow poisons come from? Is that snake venom?
Right. Multiple venoms mixed together.
And the Medusae would shampoo their hair in this venom.
Well, I heard Ruck talking about this. Carl Ruck said, when you see a serpent copulate, it opens a portal to another dimension. And also when you see a serpent copulate, you have a sex change.
Kind of a terrifying image, the image of two snakes having sex. Have you seen it?
Can you look it up, Steve? Just type in snakes mating.
It's crazy looking.
Can you find it, Steve? Yeah, hold on.
Snakes have penises with two heads.
The snake does?
Look at that right there.
Oh, this thing?
How wild is that? They're like braid themselves together. Yeah.
And I'm sure they bite each other.
It's dual headed. What does that mean when you see a snake? Look at, look at, look at that on the right. Yeah. Yeah. That's gorgeous.
How crazy is that?
Yeah, we're watching snake porn right now.
Watching a snake... Is like opening a portal to another dimension, says Rock.
So the semantic drift of the word Christ.
Christ starts in the late Bronze Age. That's the first time we ever see the word Christ.
It's a first reference to an individual.
And who is that individual? Medea. Medea, okay.
Okay, sorry.
Yeah. But was the term ever, do we find that word anytime in literature earlier than that?
Right? It always is a drug. Right. It's a new year, and maybe you want to build something yourself or be your own boss, like Steve, the faceless producer who wants to sell spaceman necklaces. This is true, Danny. I am faceless. Do you have some new ideas you've been kicking around? Shopify is how you're going to make that happen, and you should start now.
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When is the first time it is... So, starting, it goes... Euripides talked about it before Medea. Yeah.
Okay, okay, yeah. This is hard to navigate the history because we're talking about things that happened, then we're talking about when it was written about.
Yeah. So... When is the first time the word Christ is used in a different way? That's not a drug term.
When did they start saying that it was something different? What did Dan McClellan say? Dan McClellan said it meant a revolutionary term. When did that come about? When did they start saying it meant a revolutionary?
Oh, no, never mind, never mind. He said Lacedace meant revolutionary, right?
So it's always a Christ thing until the church.
And Bible scholars wouldn't know this because Bible scholars don't read medical texts. They don't read philosophical texts. They stick to the Gospels.
This is an open invitation for anyone. And I think it would make it better if we got two Bible scholars in here to debate you. So it's two verse one. The table's a little lopsided.
Yeah, no, it's... Or classicist. Classicist, Bible scholar, anybody.
Yeah, classicists... Is there a... Is there any reason they would be afraid to do this? Not in the aspect of getting things wrong or getting quote-unquote steamrolled by you, but would they get any sort of backlash from their universities? Or would they lose tenure for engaging with you and talking about this stuff?
Right, right.
I'm talking about another class.
That's what he told Mary on the mountain.
Yeah. We actually read about this on a previous podcast that we did with somebody. Remember we read through this?
On a recent podcast. We saw it on a blog post where there was a guy. He was calling it the, it was Bart Arman or something. Bart Arman.
He was explaining this something, something, something about Mary. And he talked about how Jesus was making Mary eat his cup of bread. The greater letters of Mary.
No, no, he was calling it the greater questions of Mary. No, it is. It's questions.
Yeah.
You made that clear last time.
No, I was just going to ask you who wrote that, that questions of Mary, the story about him being on the mountain with Mary and doing that.
But you read, didn't you read it? Yeah. You read the primary.
But when you read the document, don't you consider where it came from and when it came from or no?
Oh. Yeah. So by reading the Greek, you could figure out who wrote it and when?
And what's the gymnasium?
Okay, with the candles? Yeah.
We need the Bible if we're going to get naked.
Okay.
Boiled up, butt naked, boxing.
Ancient MMA.
The math is part of MMA?
What is the Epic of Gilgit? That's written in Sumerian?
Steve, you want to hit the lights for us?
What the f*** does that mean?
and enjoy the show.
And I think that's metal as fuck that you do that. Awesome. Because... Explain, explain why you don't want to bring money into this. Do you think that bringing money into it, into the stuff that you're doing kind of poisons the well?
So you're the only person on this earth, on this planet that says that the Septuagint was an original Greek.
Kind of, I guess. Okay. Maybe you get like a half a point for that. Who is he? Oh, John Scarborough.
Oh, Africanus, yeah.
He's the only other one. He's been dead a long time.
So we had Gad Barnea on here. Yeah. He was trying to explain to me. Steve, he said it was like Jewish Greek.
We're going to love this. Let's bring him into the museum. Let's bring him into the arena here. Oh, virtually into the arena. Oh God, you got the full podcast. Are you going to find it? You know where it is? What spot?
I'm not sure, but he did say that the Septuagint was Hellenistic and he said that he believes it was written in the same time frame as... He said that translation... happened within, I might be f***ing this up, but I want to say within 30 years, 20 or 30 years, he said. So he thinks it was, you know, around the same time or, you know, it was still Hellenistic. I don't know.
I don't know what the f*** he was saying. We're going to have to listen to him. If you can find it, Steve. I have this clip right here.
It's Judeo-Greek. For people who are new to this stuff, can you explain what the Septuagint was?
try to elucidate or clarify his position and what he's saying. For people that are listening to this and they're confused as fuck right now.
But why is he saying that the Septuagint is Jewish Greek? How is it different?
It's not up to the standard. So we were talking before we started about the Koine Greek. Koine Greek is like a McDonald's hamburger Greek. And then you have Aristotle, which is like a Wagyu filet or like a tomahawk ribeye, like a prime rib.
So where on that range, on that scale, is the Septuagint Greek?
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Fifth century.
So koine Greek, the Septuagint was not koine Greek.
I don't drink from Ganymede's rectum. No. That's why I'm not in charge.
Yes.
That's what you're doing. You're inspiring a new generation of time travelers to go back and excavate the truth of antiquity and what was going on. The mysteries, the drugs, the sex, the pharmacon, everything. They were roaming around. There were no cultural sanctions on these people. Nope.
They would walk through the town and burn weed, marijuana.
Of course they are.
When you say they use the fumigation to purge the population, what do you mean by that specifically? Like how do you purge them? How does that purge them? You purge them of that naughtiness. You purge them of the naughtiness? Yeah. Or you mean you're purging them psychologically is what you're saying? Yeah.
Why were the Jews not Christians? Why were the Jews not Christians? Does that make sense? Why weren't the Jews Christians? If Christianity revolves around this figure who died on the cross who was Jewish.
What's going on there?
So Jesus was. He was like he was an exotic figure. who was Hellenistic, but based on Dionysus. Is that right? His story is based on the story of Dionysus?
That was Karl Ruck who said that. No! It was.
Yeah.
So Jesus had nothing to do with Dionysus. There's no connection there.
No, and you're not, also you're not beholden to anything. You're not beholden to any sort of, any institution, any university. Correct. Anything like that. You're, like you said the last time, you're Ronan.
You hold in high regard.
Who was one of the first classical scholars to talk about the use of drugs in his book about Eleusis.
And he doesn't believe that Jesus was a historical figure.
What do you think about that?
He's a mythicist by definition.
But mythicists are people that don't believe Christ ever existed.
You're completely detached from anything. Right.
He's got a pet iguana living in his shorts.
I think he believes that the reason that he got smeared the way he did by his university was because when he was coming out with this stuff was the same time as the psychedelic renaissance, right?
And the academics didn't want to prop up any of this hippie bullshit. They thought that we don't want... We don't want our ancestors and the ancient Greeks to be these hippies that we see today protesting the Vietnam War. They weren't the same. They wouldn't have done such a thing.
Sorry to interrupt. For people that maybe didn't watch the first episode, tell us your actual academic history.
Welcome back brother.
Another thing people like to say is that he wasn't a boy. He was a young man.
But I don't see the big deal. I don't see the big difference there.
Little man.
Okay.
Right. Yeah. Where should we take the time machine next? Also, Steve, do you want to turn the lights on or is this good enough lighting for it?
Questions of Mary on the mountain.
For?
If you were a kid, would you want to eat... Fuck no. But was there any, he obviously wasn't an antidote because he wasn't a eunuch, right?
What do you think was in his s***?
How could he have any sort of chemicals in his semen that would get you high?
Yeah, but he wasn't a boy, though. You said the boys were doing that. They had to be young so that they could create the antibodies to be the Antichrist.
You don't have to pretend like your life is the Da Vinci Code. Just ask him for a blowy.
He's a cult leader. He's trying to... The guy just wants sex and drugs, and he's trying to paint this mythical, this... this cosmic god-like connection that he thinks he has to make people follow him so he can get more sex and drugs he got baptized baby he got baptized by john he was with the devil for 40 days brother
you know what i mean you don't know because we haven't been initiated i i can't i have a hard time sometimes parsing through the poetry yeah and the sword and what you're actually trying to say yeah he went he was with the devil yeah he was baptized and he went into the void oh yeah so he got he did drugs he performed a ritual a mystery when he did the baptism he saw uranos
He met the devil.
You're epi-Uranian. He got high and he met the devil. Yeah. It says that. Which still happens today. Yeah. You hear people talking about it all the time. I got too high. I met the devil. I saw the devil.
Not when I'm in the depths of hell. Maybe when I'm coming out of hell or when I'm descending down into hell.
So you also said on the first podcast, you mentioned that when Jesus was caught in the park, he was high as fuck.
He was tripping balls. Correct. He got, cops captured him. Yep. And he was crucified eight hours later. Yeah. He was captured at four, crucified at- I don't know if it was a full eight.
Three o'clock, he's dead.
yeah right he died prematurely and they offer and he screamed he was screaming out some people say he was singing yeah um and and somebody offered him his followers were trying to give him a sponge or something full of vinegar correct and you say that no-ness wrote about that vinegar being an antidote to the horned African viper.
Okay, let's put a pin right there.
So last time you were on here, the first time, the first show we did, I made it clear up front that I wasn't prepared for the conversation we had. Although I read your book and I listened to your podcast with Hamilton.
Okay, when was Nonas? Who was Nonas? Yeah, 5th. Fifth on Odomine.
And he quite literally wrote... About that vinegar being the specific word for the antidote for the viper venom.
The Paraphrase of the Gospel of John.
So is anybody else who's read that? I imagine Rock has read that, right? He's read Nonus?
I don't know. Is that not a common thing for classicists to read?
But like going back to like how I started the conversation to explaining your performative way of teaching this stuff, it has inspired me to be fascinated in these things and continue to dive down this rabbit hole. And I've invited like half a dozen people on the show since to –
Where did you find it?
But so he was reading, he was translating John's gospel. And the way John wrote was not complex. It was very primitive, right?
And John wrote it in what language? Greek. In Greek. It's Greek. Was Nonas' Greek better than John's?
You sell them. You trade them.
I'm not committing to two eunuchs. I'm not going to do that. I don't need the eunuchs. I don't need an antidote.
I hope somebody clips this out of context.
Mm-hmm.
You couldn't do it recreationally.
either corroborate what you're saying or shut down what you're saying or at least show some sort of counter evidence or give me some more context to what you're saying because there's nobody else that's saying what you're saying. Or at least I can't find it. Right.
So tell me why we need the eunuchs.
They can extract their bodily fluids.
What about Nero's death inducers? Yeah.
Middle of the first, and what was his position? Who was he?
there wouldn't be so and and that's like a common thread on this show i will typically have people on here that will say something right that that many people won't agree with and then other people will reach out and say hey this guy's full of shit let me come present my evidence right which is good that's a gymnasium that's an ancient
Is it similar to the Theriot, to Galen's Theriot?
Because Marcus Aurelius was on the dope.
Now, the Theriac had a bunch of different viper venoms, viper flesh, had opium. Right, right. All kinds of animal and plant products mixed into it. And it was supposed to be like a panacea, right?
It's wrestling. Perfect. Well, a lot of people made videos kind of like responding to what you were saying, like edited videos, calling out bullshit on you, saying that you messed up. You were lying. You were taking stuff out of context. Yet we, so people know, we quite literally reached out to... I don't know, Steve, what was it? Two, three dozen scholars?
Yes. Yeah. Do you think there's something about the human brain that was something through evolution that wired the human brain to be dependent on a higher power? Something deep inside our brain, something ancient that has built this dependency on a higher power.
Well, we are drugs. Human beings, animals, we're drugs. We're walking bags of drugs, of chemicals. Right, right. That are constantly fluctuating in their balance. We're never in one particular state. Our state is always going up and down like waves, depending on what our cortisol level is, our hormonal levels. And every plant and animal and human being is a producer of DMT.
Everything has DMT in it. Everything. Our brains, our lungs. First of all, how do you make...
Um, another thing I wanted to ask you about was Caligula.
Who's Caligula?
Yeah. What was going on with that? He was sick for a long time.
He didn't try the Theriac.
thank you for having me of course it's my pleasure my pleasure we uh you caused a ruckus on that first podcast we did okay and uh I've learned so much since that first podcast yeah fantastic um some of the texts that we're gonna go into today are gonna make me want to throw up so I brought my barf bag I'm ready the Greeks were sickos the Greeks were into some nasty shit yeah
A few of them were from Harvard. A few of them were classical philologists from Harvard. Theologians, biblical scholars. Oh, God. All of which said they would not be comfortable to come debate you. Let me tell you again. So I got to keep rolling with this until I can find somebody. Yes. To prove you wrong.
Tiberius.
This is in what, the first?
Yeah, you don't see it, but you never know. He could be doing it behind closed doors.
I think he'll watch this.
You've got something that rewires your brain. It gives you a different perspective on stuff.
Yeah.
Well, it makes sense. Like when they talk about Eleusis being a portal to another world. But like if Eleusis was this place where people could go experience these drugs and have the experience of dying and being born again and going to this other dimension.
Which is an earth-shattering experience. I mean, it sounds just like a DMT or a mushroom trip. And if you can put a walled garden around it and make it a secret where you're not allowed to talk about it and you have to pay to bring your goat or whatever and sacrifice to be able to come here.
You could absolutely... convince people that they are meeting the gods. Hearing the voice of God. Because that's exactly what it is. Unless you have some sort of scientific explanation You know, like we have today where people try to explain. I mean, we still, even today, we don't, people don't know what's happening on DMT. There's theories of what, you know, some people say that it's the brain.
The brain is a filter that's filtering out what's really here in our reality. And it's, the brain is filtering the things that we need to be able to perceive in order to survive. And when you, these drugs break that down and they show you what's really there, you That's the theory that people think that that's what's going on.
We just want to talk about the Bible.
I mean, there's people that are trying to study doing extended state DMT trips to try to figure out what exactly is going on there because we don't know. Is it inside of our brains? Is it just some sort of chemical thing that's happening inside of our heads that is giving us this experience? Or is it outside? We still don't know today. So thousands of years ago,
is totally plausible that they thought that they were going to hell or going to heaven and being initiated into something spiritual. And if you can have some sort of a structure around that, some sort of cultish, some sort of cult structure where there's a leader who decides, you know, who is able to be initiated and,
Yeah.
Especially if you're doing something... I mean, I don't know if that... Even when that was happening... Was that the sexual stuff? Was that frowned upon? No, completely contemporary. It was contemporary. It was a ubiquitous thing.
What was the study you sent me from the University of Tampa where they found a mug, an ancient mug, and they thought that there was breast milk and drugs mixed together?
Can you find that, Steve? There's an article that just came out from University of Tampa about an Egyptian mug.
Vaginal proteins?
There it is. Ancient Egyptian mug at the Tampa Museum of Art. Once held psychotropic drugs, human blood, and bodily fluids. Research reveals...
And when was this published? This was published recently, I think.
Way up above the text. Below the photo, above the text.
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
Did you say on the last podcast or have you ever said that you're the only one who knows this stuff and reads this stuff?
The magical Greek papyri.
Stimulants? Did they have cocaine and heroin back then? Yeah. Or did they only have psychedelics?
They didn't have coca?
Maybe keep the top on.
Pythagoras?
Yeah. What was the average lifespan of people back then?
The lifespan was the same.
Right. Infant mortality rate was like 50%.
So if you're not dying from famine or war or plague, you're going to live the same. Wow.
Did they distinguish different types of cancers? No. Did Galen ever do any tumor removals?
He reduced the tumor.
It's amazing that Galen was doing all this stuff and he was cutting up bodies and studying anatomy and studying pharmacology and drugs. And at the same time, he was like a philosophical writer and he wrote 10% of the text that we have. 10% of the classical text is Galen, right?
They do ignore Galen.
You sent me a recent dissertation from a guy in Europe.
Exeter, who did a dissertation all about Galen.
Remember when I had a guy on here a few months ago and I asked you to give me sort of a boot camp in Play-Doh?
And this guy was a Greek. He had a little bit of classical knowledge. His name's Flint Dibble. And he was an archaeologist in Athens.
And he knew some Greek stuff. And he was basically saying that Atlantis was all bullshit. That Plato... Yeah.
Plato was a dumbass.
So it's like they're insinuating, take it with a grain of salt because it's Plato.
Was he a liar or was he just like coming up with like abstract thought experiments?
Yeah. So nothing he wrote was historical. Nothing at all.
He's a philosopher, right.
What would have happened if he left?
He'd rather die.
Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because he did the debate with somebody that blew up.
No, he's not here. No. But in all fairness, he's a very busy guy. He had a lot of stuff going on in his life. And, you know, you get a call from that show and you kind of have to do it. Yeah. But, yeah, that's sad. It's a shame. But the way I understand it is there's like – the Bible and then there's Christianity that is like this veneer of, that people don't like to look through.
Do you want to, should we watch his response to you and we can break it down?
Yes.
Poor, poor baby Billy Carson.
You got to start around the six and a half minute mark. Okay.
Okay. So there's a lot of people online that really want this guy to debate you. So let's listen to what his response is to your translation of the word Christ.
Semantic range.
Let him finish. He's almost there.
It's about to climax.
All right, fast forward through the part where he plays the clip. We don't need to play that again.
They don't like to look past that. But behind that, there's this, a whole nother universe of history with all this other stuff, from poetry to comedy, to musical stuff, to philosophy, to medical texts. That is just like, once you can penetrate that veil of Christianity and the church, There's so much more to learn. Yeah.
You're pulling out a specific context in Galen's medical texts and trying to apply it to everything across the board, which is intellectually dishonest.
He's finishing his PhD.
So who are the other authors that say that Christ is applying a drug to your eyes besides Galen?
This is the half of the... He's saying it's only in a few places, and you're saying it's literally everywhere.
I love it. How do you really feel?
You're passionate about this, aren't you?
I did not know that.
He wasn't getting joy out of it. He was just doing it to survive.
And we mentioned this briefly on the first podcast, but what is the hard evidence that the two gentlemen crucified next to him were child traffickers?
He was wearing a linen and then it fell off when he ran away.
So the logic behind that is why would it fall off? If it's a piece of clothing, it's tethered to you. It's tied to you. It's wrapped around you so you can navigate. You can walk around and it will stay on you. If I run away, my pants aren't going to fall off.
The word that they use for the linen wrapped around him in Greek, it means a medicated bandage.
What was the party he was at in the back room? It said he was on the top level or something. This is what you talked about in the first podcast. He was doing something.
My question is, why was he washing feet?
Why was he participating in the mystery in some back room somewhere and then decide to move the party out to a public park? Why? What's the necessity for being in the public park? Why not just stay in the shed, in the shack?
Get off! And then why did he end up making out with Judas? It's a thang.
Maybe scholars just think it's better that we leave this behind us. It's not going to benefit us moving forward.
Like you did.
I also hadn't realized the first time you came on here was that when they fired you, you had already published your book about original sin.
So they caught wind of Original Sin, which you wrote before or after The Chemical Muse?
You wrote that after The Chemical Muse.
Original Sin. They probably got wind of that book and decided this guy's a cancer. We got to cut him out.
Tom Melvin?
And these people – some people online have gotten a hold of your deposition. Yeah. Some sort of deposition where the lawyers were interrogating you about some sort of – Some sort of dream molesting that you were doing. And you showed me some clips of that where they were asking you about, you claimed that you were like Pan and emailing people and all this weird stuff.
Seven hour deposition.
Yeah, apparently you did, allegedly.
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Do you know anything about methylene blue? Oh, yeah. That's becoming very popular right now. And it's like a fish tank cleaner and like a fabric dye that people are using that a lot of people. I had a guy on here who was explaining to me all this. He was a brain surgeon who was explained to me how he gives his patients when he's performing craniotomies on folks.
He gives them an IV of methylene blue. while he's performing brain surgery. As a neuroprotective agent or what was it? Something like that. I don't know all the scientific reasons he does it, but yeah, it's mainly because it helps them heal a lot faster and it's a neuroprotective agent.
And another thing he does is when his patients are recovering from like super invasive brain or spinal surgery, he wheels them outside into the courtyard and lets them recover outside in the natural sunlight.
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He claims that they recover a lot faster because allegedly this, or I don't know if it's allegedly, I think it might be proven that this methylene blue is like super beneficial for the mitochondria or something like this.
Oh, wow.
I think I've heard that it's been effective for illnesses similar to COVID, right? Like respiratory illnesses.
How?
Dude, thank you for doing this. This has been incredible.
Yeah. No, thank you. It's fun. Yeah. I learned a lot. So are you mainly now focusing on your podcast or are you working on any other kind of documentary projects?
This is Hamilton's Patreon. What is that iguana on the top photo? It's a chameleon. Oh, it's a chameleon. It's a panther chameleon. A panther chameleon. Yeah, I love chameleons. Wow. Do they secrete any sort of drug-like fluids or are they just cool looking?
Oh, really? Where is that one from? Madagascar. Madagascar? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, cool. I'll link your Patreon. And then you also have a YouTube channel, right? Yes, yeah. You post stuff on YouTube as well. Yep. Cool, man. Thanks again. I really enjoyed this podcast, dude. Yeah, yeah. Cool. It was fun. All right. It's all linked below. Good night, everybody.
of your dad's documentaries like and my mind was blown i was like no way that's incredible i mean like some of those documentaries that he does like the way he does documentaries is so unique and so like he just has a very very
Astrology computer. I've never even heard of that.
cool way of like the cinematography that he does where he has the interviewers talk directly down the barrel of the camera sure sure you know he interviews him like right behind the lens sometimes with his older ones i think mr death I think he did it during Mr. Death where all of the interviews, like typically people when they're doing interviews, they're looking to the side, right?
Of anything.
To like somebody talking to them. But he has this unique way of having people look straight down the barrel of the camera or having multiple. The Interrotron is what it's called. Oh, the Interrotron. Yes, I forgot. That's what it's called. Yeah, yeah. A name coined by my mother. Oh, your mom made that up. Yeah. That's so cool, man. Yeah. Yeah.
Because you know a lot more about kratom than I do.
It's addictive?
I can't remember a day in the last 10 years that I haven't... I mean, there's been... The last 10 years, I could probably count on two hands how many days I've gone without a cup of coffee. not many days. Like I drink coffee every single day. Is that necessarily a bad thing? Maybe Kratom is not as bad as coffee.
You know, I don't know. Right. So I know, I know this shit's amazing. Like I, it's so much better than caffeine. Right. And, um, yeah, I mean, what, as far as what you know about Kratom, I know you've done a lot of research on it and you, you know, far more than I do. I watched part of your documentary, um,
When you went to, I think, Thailand and you met with some guys who were basically they had kratom trees. Yeah. How does it work? And other than the amazing euphoric stimulating feeling I get when I drink it, what what is like, is there any downside or any long term negative effects of it?
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It's a good exercise to abstain from things for a period of time if you tend to enjoy it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I noticed myself on the weekends. I don't drink any of it, but I catch myself thinking about it. Like, oh, it's it's noon. I could go for a kratom. I'm like, OK, I know I'm thinking about it. So that means I shouldn't have one.
I should go a couple more days without having one.
Like everybody is, is obsessed with the nicotine pouches. Everybody's on them now. It's crazy how they've just stormed society over the last two years.
Yeah. So the guy Fred's hypothesis at the end of it, some guy, the guy who was involved in some trial basically got Fred to testify for him that the gas chambers in Germany, like couldn't have been gas chambers. And like that was used like to, I don't know, that ended up being like this weird side thing road that the whole documentary took at the very end that you weren't expecting.
His headphone cables. Oh, oh, oh, oh. I feel like it's overworked. A little overstretched.
It would be very beneficial.
Yes, absolutely. One of the things I hate about the Zins though, is it's like, it's very vaso restrictive. So like if you're doing any sort of like activity or exercise, it's counterproductive for that. Right. So like for some, for some reason it's supposed to be a stimulating, mentally stimulating thing. But how is it mentally stimulating if it's vaso-restrictive, right?
Don't you want more blood flow to your brain?
If I take too many zins during the day, I start to feel sick. Yeah. Like nauseous, kind of. Oh, yeah. Like if I take three of them, I can't do three of them in a day. I can do like maybe max two of them. But the other ones, I don't feel that effect at all. Interesting. Yeah, it's weird. I'm a super lightweight, which is why I was super impressed.
I'm very impressed with you, and I'm kind of envious of you because you are the complete antithesis of a – You're the opposite of a hypochondriac. You're not afraid of anything. You literally will go into the depths of the Peruvian Amazon and lick a fucking venomous toad and be like, well, I hope I don't die.
Well, you didn't lick it, but they burned you and they rubbed it on you. You had the guy in Haiti put the powder on you. He's holding this powder. He's like, this will kill 20 people. You're like, okay, put it on me.
You just know. So you're very you're very educated in this stuff and you understand the pharmacology. So maybe that's the reason that you aren't terrified of it.
And it seems like your dad had to do a lot of damage control with that when they were promoting the documentary.
Really? Yeah. How different was it from traditional LSD?
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, so what was it like? I've always been curious. What was it like in like the very early days of vice and producing those shows for vice? Um, and that goes back like 15, 20 years ago. Right.
yeah so did you like like first of all how did you start and how did you get in with vice in the very beginning and like what was the like what were the meetings like like how how did you guys decide what you were gonna go film and all of that Yeah.
I remember my friend who I used to film surfing with, Jerry. I remember when he... I knew him way before he worked for Vice, and then all of a sudden I saw him traveling all over the fucking world, going to Antarctica and all these crazy places. I think he went to North Korea. But he was one of the big ones. He filmed with Shane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Jerry Ricciotti. Yeah. Ricciotti.
I think that's how you say it. Yeah. And that's when I first discovered all that stuff. When he started traveling to all these fucking places. I'm like, Jerry, how the fuck did, how did all this happen? It's crazy, man.
That was one of the big selling points, right? It was like, we're so cool, everyone wants to work for us for free.
Yeah, especially somebody who worked with them for a long time. Yeah.
Yeah, Thomas.
Oh, really? I didn't know that. I talk to him all the time. Dude, he's so funny. You should have him on. I would love to. I talked to him on the phone once about doing this. And then I think he ghosted me after that. He's like, I'm not fucking going to hang out with this loser. I'll text him.
calling it some kind of documentary work and that's just stupid that's the opposite of what the original idea of vice was right it's just like going out into crazy places and turning the camera on and seeing what happens yeah seeing you know seeing the insane that's happening in the world yeah that's so crazy man
Was it when they sold out Trubert Murdoch? Was there a specific point where you realized and Thomas realized it's time to jump ship? I know there was a lot of layoffs and stuff like that, but in your perspective, what was happening internally that caused that?
Right. They were just like putting like, like dust in bags and like Ziploc bags and flying across the world to a chemistry lab.
Yes.
So. I remember listening to videos, interviews of Shane explaining how great of an idea it was and like, Okay, I think I'm convinced. I'm sold.
Oh, he knew about that in the beginning. I got the impression that he didn't find that out until like after they were in production. I could be. That was a while ago when I watched it.
Right. Right.
When was this?
Jesus, dude. Whoa, look at that. Look at the one with the on the very left, very bottom left.
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It's kind of gray market, right? You can't buy it on Amazon or anything like that.
That was like the height of the pandemic, right?
Everybody fucking knew.
Wow. Yeah, that's wild, man.
I've always found it so interesting how people I know, I have friends that can function and live their lives and are ultra successful in their lives.
that can go day to day doing like hard drugs like i'm talking about like ambient cocaine ambient yeah you call ambient a hard drug for me yeah i'm a hard drug i'm i'm super like lightweight i'm a i'm a when it comes to drugs but like i have friends like that that can just function off this stuff and do it every single day and i'm not talking just ambient i'm talking like
I'm talking going from Ambien to Adderall to cocaine to Vicodins and, and muscle relaxers, like all in the course of a day. And they're like, Like arguably, they're more with it than I am.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah. But what I was like, like when I was explaining my buddies that I know that use Ambien to go to sleep and Adderall to wake up every day, I was like, it feels like to me, you're just burning the candle at both ends and it can't be, it can't be a healthy way to exist. But somehow these people manage to not only exist, but thrive. Yeah. Which is, I don't know. That's just, to me, it's just,
It's kind of unfathomable.
You better put some high octane gas in your body before you do that. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, one of my buddies in particular that uses Ambien a lot, he'll explain to me sometimes how he has, like he has the security cameras all over his house.
So he'll like fight the urge to go to sleep after he takes the Ambien and he'll go into one of the rooms in his house where he has a monitor that shows all of his cameras and he said he'll be staring at like his driveway camera and he'll see like a unicorn walk across the driveway and he like hallucinates on it.
What was the story with Tiger Woods taking Ambien? It was like he used it as like a sexual enhancement or something.
Oh, my God. How do you chemically and pharmacologically explain that?
Hopefully not excreted if you're sleeping. Yeah. Going back to the fentanyl thing. Yeah. There was tons of stories a couple years ago of like – I forget where I saw this piece, but I read this really long essay on this fentanyl epidemic that we're seeing people dying from doing coke that's accidentally laced with fentanyl. And there was this –
theory that people had that somehow China was shipping fentanyl and teaching these chemists in Mexico and South American countries to use fentanyl to mix it in with their cocaine to somehow kill Americans. And then this person did this really long piece that laid out the case where he said that he went and tried cocaine in various cities throughout the United States. He went to
He got went to some high level dealers that sold cocaine to like rich people and well off, you know, white collar folks. And then he went to like some inner cities and bought cocaine from, you know, like street dealers. And he also, I think, tested it. And what he found was that.
The cocaine that was laced with fentanyl was sold by people who were also selling heroin because I guess you mix heroin with fentanyl. So his theory on this was that like, okay, these really low-level dealers are selling heroin, fentanyl, all this other stuff. But the people that are selling coke to rich people, they're not selling heroin.
So the low-level people are like mixing the coke and the heroin on the same table and there's actually getting a little bit of fentanyl into that cocaine by accident. And that would potentially describe those fentanyl overdoses with people doing coke.
I'm not entirely convinced. Yeah, I heard also, what is this, Steve? 1977 scientist at BAT Industries PLC explored adding a highly, oh, this is what Hamilton's talking about. Wow. And I've read the primary document. Oh, really? Yeah. I saw a story. I forget where I saw it.
It might have been from Luis Chaparro was telling me that there was a story basically of a cartel, like the head of the car, one of the cartels in Mexico, like hung somebody from a street sign and put a message on there, like warning people of mixing their Coke with fentanyl saying, this is what happens if you guys will mix fentanyl with the cocaine, like you're going to hang because it's not good for business.
It probably isn't good for business. Right. That's what I would imagine. If you're selling Coke to people, you don't want them to be dying. They're not going to be buying any more of your Coke.
I was reading this crazy story in, I forget what magazine it was, but it was a story basically about how one of the head guys of the Rolling Stones was talking about how back in the day they used to get this pharmaceutical-grade cocaine from Merck. Mm-hmm. And he said they would just use it all the time.
And like, they would have like lines of it chalked up behind the speakers and the amplifiers during live shows. And it was incredible because there was no withdrawal afterwards. There was no, like, you never came down. It was just like, you could do this Coke all day long, all the time.
know feel yourself through these eight-hour shows and and uh no downside absolutely zero downside and they somehow got like loads of it from merc this like pharmaceutical grade cocaine that apparently came from the nazis right i think this also speaks to the the way that people project associations onto a drug and that can change the nature of the drug experience
This is very, very good.
You're talking about basically placebo. right?
Hmm. Yeah. How much, how much of an effect do you think that has on psychedelics? A huge, really huge. Yeah. Because I noticed that I think one of the
most illuminating things about your um your trip to haiti when you when you documented that tribe and the voodoo i think it was like a voodoo ritual society in haiti that they were obsessed with this and this goes back to like that rainbow serpent thing where they they had this pufferfish venom that is like 160 000 times more potent in a certain alkaloid that is in cocaine or something like that
Right. Yeah. It was, you know, one of the most profound things about that documentary that I noticed was he was like he was explaining after the Bureau of Prisons got him to repair the electric chair, then said, hey, maybe you can come up with these other. or these other ways of executing people with the like lethal injections.
And it paralyzes you, paralyzes your whole body. And sometimes it's, or a lot of the times it's fatal. But like these people, they have this spiritual religious belief, right? In voodoo and that these things happen and that they create zombies or whatever. So, so yeah.
that has a huge, like that dictates how they react to these drugs because they're so their culture goes back, you know, who, who knows how far it goes back. But, um, they really believe in this stuff, and they believe, and they have extreme expectations to how or what's gonna happen once they take these drugs or engage in these rituals.
Yeah.
And they even did gas chambers, I think, in the US for the Bureau of Prisons and all kinds of other ways of doing it. He was explaining like, it is really difficult to kill people. He's like, it's not that easy. It's not as easy as you would imagine.
Right.
Yes. It seems like... Wasn't there a study that was done, I think it was with John Hopkins, where they were trying to give psychedelics to different religious groups or people like leaders of different religions and seeing how the psychedelic affected them or like what their experience was based on their religious worldview? Yeah, there was.
This was the famous study that was never released that Travis Kitchens wrote about. Yeah. Yeah. Have you had him on? Yeah, I have. Oh, cool. Oh, yeah.
Yes. This was like maybe a month ago.
What's that? The symposia stuff. Cause he was one of the, he talked about it. I mean, we talked about everything. There was nothing that I don't think he held back on anything. Oh man.
because there was a lot of people that weren't, that weren't dying, that were just getting tortured or like getting, you know, put in a vegetative state or, you know, and that was one of his hardest things is like actually like trying to like push somebody over the edge of death is a lot harder than you would imagine. Yeah. Yeah. That is a surprising aspect of all of this. Yeah.
George Soros, yeah.
Anyways, incredible stuff. I like your, your, your dad's new documentary uh that chaos documentary was also really good because he's also done um the wormwood stuff about like cia's mk ultra and all this stuff did you did you like help him at all with any of this stuff i'm sure like you guys interests are very much intertwined oh yeah yeah yeah i did i was
That's an example of the YouTube comments becoming true. Because if you read YouTube comments of a lot of podcasts, people always speculate that this person's an op working for this person. That's like the number one foundational conspiracy. Right. I feel like that exists in comments of people that say anything intelligent or anything interesting.
They always say, okay, this person's working for this person. They're a paid informant for this company or this country or whatever. Yeah, yeah, which is funny.
I've heard of them.
And why are they so anti, anti psychedelics and anti MDMA and all this stuff? Like why, like, is it, is it some sort of like personal moral thing that they truly believe? Or is it something, is it having anything to do with money? Oh, money is a big,
So they kicked you out?
Money, I think... Because they can't sell it? They wouldn't be able to make it their own product and commercialize it themselves?
Yeah. yeah it's just like this crazy sort of political corporation shadow war that's going on where they're manipulating the media and doing whatever they can to prop themselves up yeah and i really
Sure.
Um, yeah. Yeah. One of the other, one of the main things that Travis was explaining to me when he was on here was, um, He was explaining how there are all these different groups that are trying to use psychedelics to their advantage. And the one that he was pointing out was the Catholic Church.
and um how there are certain people that want to sort of use psychedelics to revive christianity or revive the the church and to give these church fathers the power to give the churchgoers psychedelics to because they would it would be able to make people more
enthusiastic about god or about religion which in their estimation would make be good for the country would make people more in line with one's spiritual belief but like what travis was pointing out is how fucking dangerous that is when you give these people who are
are believed to be the connection to god the power of giving these people psychedelics where they're probably already these people are probably you know already vulnerable and now you're giving them psychedelics and you have the and you have a direct connection to god and you can tell them whatever you want like that seems like a very dangerous, slippery idea.
And, um, I think one of the people, one of the people that he talks about is Brian Mara rescue and the immortality key book. And, uh, um, Travis interviewed, um, Amin Hillman and Carl Ruck, who are both sources for that immortality key book that Brian Mara rescue did. Yeah. And, uh, he, I, uh, allegedly, uh,
Brian didn't tell either of them his ultimate aim of that book, which according to Travis was that it would be a great idea to infuse psychedelics into the church. And then Carl was very upset about this. From what I hear, I haven't talked to him or Brian about this. This is just what I'm learning from Travis and from Amin. Is that, you know, he wasn't happy about that.
And there's also pictures of Brian that was in Travis's article giving the Pope a copy of his book. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. So he seems like a very nice guy.
Yeah, sure. And he but he did like he did point out and he found like solid evidence that that that clinic in Haight-Ashbury did have CIA funding and they were doing like crazy testing with I think it was LSD mixed with amphetamines and seeing how that affected people. And then that guy Jolly West was visiting there all the time.
Amen. Hillman. How did you discover him?
I loved the way he articulated how the ancient medicine and the ancient drugs, which is like the work of Galen, the Galen literature is like 10% of all literature from antiquity, which is crazy that it's medical literature. He explained that stuff as a guide rope that leads you through the dark cave of fairy tales, right?
Because he uses the drug, the ancient Greek drug stuff that Galen wrote as context to everything else, all the religious stuff that was written about through antiquity, which I thought was super interesting.
And then the connection with Manson and his followers going there every single week is just, you know, that you can't make any draw any like solid conclusions out of that. But the connections are bizarre that the fact that they were doing that stuff and he was there every week.
I don't think you could possibly ever know what was happening thousands of years ago. It's just that he has the most entertaining speculations and translations of what was going on thousands. It's the most fun. And I have to give him credit because I mean, first of all, I gotta give you credit because I didn't know about him until I listened to your podcast with him. And I had him on after that.
And it was like wildly popular episode. And, and that like got me really interested in the ancient Greek stuff. And I led me on to read a lot more books and stuff on that, on that topic. So like at the very least, whether like people want to argue whether he's mistranslating things or,
or he has his own agenda i mean he very obviously self-admittedly has a bias because his dissertation they told him he had to take all references to recreational drugs out of his phd dissertation right right so he went on and did that and then after he got his phd he was like this i'm gonna turn that whole part into a book about all the recreational drugs that were happening or that was going on and then he wrote that um that other book about uh ritual child
which got him in big trouble. And then he got kicked out of the university. So he was like, he's like the anti, I think he, and he was at a religious university. I think it was Wisconsin university, Wisconsin. So like he became like an, like an anti-Christian classicist. So he wants like his, he has a built in bias in his brain that wants to just like utterly appall any Christian person.
Which is arguably exactly what happened to Allegro as well. Right. Right. But potentially, a lot of the stuff he's saying is pretty spot on. A lot of the stuff that he talks about with Galen, using this Theriac concoction of seven different viper venoms combined with flesh of vipers and opium in there. Like...
And, you know, like, first of all, how did they how did he come up with the idea to combine all these venoms and and who did they test them on? He's like, who's going to be the first test subject to try this Theriac concoction? And where did you even come up with the idea in the first place?
So it's like, I haven't heard, I haven't, like, again, I have no way of telling it, like, knowing if he just pulled that out of his ass or if he really translated it. But it's definitely super interesting.
And Jesus was in the public park and he's like, I'm not a lacedace.
Then you have to think like, is it non-standard? It's non-standard depending on who you talk to as well. Like a lot of people have a lot of... And here's the thing about Bible scholars too, is the majority of Bible scholars subscribe to Christianity or whatever religion that is.
Oh, really?
So like you're dedicating your life to the science of the history of the Bible and you also believe in the Bible as your faith. Which is weird. And these people don't want to hear anything that goes against what the conventional explanation of Jesus was, especially if you're labeling him as like a Jeffrey Epstein type character.
Who's the opposite.
Well, he doesn't believe Satan. He thinks Satan's a fairy tale. He says hail Satan. Yeah, that's what I was saying. He says hail Satan. He says hail Satan, but he calls that, he got that from Socrates. He calls it the gadfly. He says hail Satan because it's like a throat punch to people. Because people hear it and they're like, whoa, it like blows them off of their mind.
You know, it gets them like out of their normal frame of thinking, like what the fuck? And it gets them to pay attention. Right. So he thinks it's like provocative and it's, you know, it's interesting. It's fun for him. It's not like he literally is a Satanist. Wouldn't mind if he was. Right.
No, neither would I, but it's, but it's super interesting that he, you know, he thinks it's all a fairy tale. He thinks it all, you know, and, you know, he, and he credits a lot of authors. Like I've, I've talked to him. I talk to him all the time. I call him up and talk to asking questions all the fucking time. That's awesome. I love him. He's a super nice guy. Yeah. Yeah.
And, um, you know, and he teaches me a lot of stuff. And like, I've, I ask other people that I know who are like super, uh, um, like knowledgeable and study this stuff for their, like their entire lives, like the Bible and Greek myths and Greek literature and stuff like that.
And I often get a lot of corroboration on the things that he says, for example, like this ancient writer, who wrote in like the second or third century talks about, um, how the sponge, um,
that was offered to jesus was an antidote to the snake venom and there was like a literal greek passage that was translated and he used the words antidote that was on the sponge that was given to him and he was um according to multiple authors he was on the cross and he was
like dying of thirst like he was extremely thirsty which was apparently that's a side effect of um a certain viper venom um i think even you said in the pufferfish documentary that that was one of the side effects of the pufferfish venom but um
Again, who knows what the fuck was going on 2000 years ago, but it's like, there's a lot of corroboration here and it's a, it's a decent hypothesis at the very least.
Not, not deeply. No, I've heard of it. I'm not like super into it.
That's so interesting too, because ancient Greek had like over a million unique words and like so many different variations of words. And, and I think even, I don't think there's even close to that. I think what is, how many words does modern English have? I'd be curious if you could find that Steve.
But the fact that, and even going back to his book, how he explains, which is, I mean, the book is not sensational at all. I mean, it makes sense that in the time of the Romans, there was plague and famine and hand-to-hand combat all the time. It would make sense that people were using drugs to get through the day. And that, you know...
With infant mortality being like 50%, people would be taking drugs all the time. So 200,000, is this what it says? Yeah, that's what it seems to say. It seems kind of low to me, but I mean, I guess, I mean, I don't know 200,000 words. So like 200,000 words in our language, they had over a million words in it.
2,000, 2,500 years ago, you know, and just like the thing that the concepts they were able to come up with and like the philosophy that, you know, they were come up with democracy and the scientific method and all that, all that crazy stuff that they were doing. Like, it's like, you know, it's just super interesting.
I wish I could take a time machine back to that point in history and see what the fuck was going on, but we'll never know. It's also funny how people like to bicker about it online. What difference does it fucking make? You see people like debating it. You know, I even asked a couple of people to debate Amin, like some serious academic people.
And they said, I don't want to give him the credibility of being on like the same platform as me. I don't want to give him that stage, right? Or like give him that credibility was the general responses that I got from people.
What do you make of the idea of. using human, like using the bot, like his idea of using, I don't even know if that's his idea. I think it comes from somewhere else, but he basically talks about it a lot. But the idea of using the human body as like a drug factory or like as a,
I think the way he describes it as like using venoms like a small amount of like snake venom on a young person to where they don't die from it, but they build up the antibodies to the snake venom and how they could use this young person's bodily fluids as an antidote to snake bites. That seems... Like an ancient vaccine or something, right?
Do we have any evidence that they, outside of shit like Galen, that they were doing that stuff back then? Do you know that you know of? That they were creating vaccines in humans? I don't believe so. Or using human... Humans as like antibody factories or anything like this.
Mm hmm. And what do you think would be – or do you think there would be any effect of combining venoms and consuming them? Oh, I have no idea.
Like a compound, like an ancient compounding pharmacy of venoms, like where they're just – creating their own new compound.
So it's like, okay.
concoction with you know many different ingredients yeah and i'm sure it also had a lot to do with like the beliefs in the the culture that was around back then too i'm sure that had a lot to do with this stuff but people believed that this theriac combo was making them younger maybe that was that was what he reported to his physician and he wrote about it that way right right but
It would be amazing to see somebody try to engineer all the ingredients of that and analyze it and see what the fuck it was, what the fuck it actually did. Yeah. Um, I'm gonna take a pee break real quick. Okay. We'll jump back in. Okay. We're talking about David Nichols. He got what Travis told me about this. He was saying that, um, David got some crazy DARPA grant to work on psychedelics.
Uh, the use of, um, what was the psychedelic, some sort of psychedelic for soldiers, um, And I actually, we actually looked it up and it wasn't David Nichols. It was somebody, I was, I think the head of his department. It's Brian Roth. Brian. Okay. Yes, that's right. Yeah. And, um,
allegedly, I mean, who knows what the fuck DARPA is doing, spending all, I mean, allegedly, according to the grant, like according to all the published research on it is that they're trying to take the psychedelic trip out of these drugs so that they can get the benefit of the therapy for use as a PTSD or battle fatigue, things like this. But according to Travis,
There's this dude named Dana Beal who is trafficking Ibogaine to the front lines of the Ukraine to give the Ukrainian soldiers so that they can enhance their edge detection and their aim on the battlefield. And also to combat battle fatigue so they can get right back out there and continue fighting.
Are you really?
Wild dude.
And the idea, if I'm correct, is taking the trip out of the psychedelics so that people can get it without the sort of hallucination or... That's part of it, yeah. It's part of it, definitely. But the question is, do you get that same benefit from these drugs without the psychedelic effect?
Yeah.
exploring every avenue of what can happen at serotonin receptors yes and the so the serotonin 2a receptor is what's primarily responsible for the the psychedelic experience that you receive with the classical psychedelics and we and and humans have had this receptor forever like as far as we know seems like it yeah so so i mean even non-humans have it Even non-humans have it?
Even non-humans have it. Like... Rodents have it. Rodents have a 2A receptor? So do we know, or do we have... There's no way to know if they can experience anything similar to what we experience when you give them these drugs.
What are the performance-enhancing effects of psychedelics? Is there an optimal dose for cognitive enhancement? Because I know there's a correlation with psychedelics and growth of new neurons in the brain. Is this right?
Sure. Yeah. I don't know. I just always thought that this stuff made people smarter because the smartest people I know are like, take a lot of psychedelics.
Have you ever seen that DMT experiment where they shine the laser on the wall? Yeah. What did you make of that?
Right. Yeah. Right. But the fact is like... like the interesting thing is you're giving so he he says that I think hundreds of people have done it and reported to him seeing the same exact code that he describes, which is this like Sanskrit looking Japanese katakana style matrix dripping code that exists behind this laser beam when it's projected on a wall and like
I don't know if there's – I know like I haven't done a lot of DMT, but I know people explain that DMT is – a lot of people see very similar things when they're on DMT. Like similar patterns. Some people see these L things. But there's nothing else that I've ever heard of that is consistent across a lot of experiences. Similar to this code that people are explaining they're seeing.
And I mean, one of my questions when I asked him, I was like, I was like, is it an issue that they're watching your documentary and seeing this code on the wall and then they're trying to do it themselves and they're kind of confirming what they already were expecting to see? Is that a problem? I don't know.
Yeah, Gallimore was explaining how throughout history there has been multiple documents of people taking different psychedelics and explaining how they saw code on different psychedelics throughout history in various studies. But I don't know if any of them were as similar as this DMT thing. You know, it's interesting to me that, like,
if the, if this DMT is actually stripping away this sort of brain filter, this brain filter hypothesis, how you have like these filters that filter reality and the DMT kind of like breaks the filters away. So you're sort of seeing the brain is exposed to more sensory input. And if, if that's really, if something like that is actually happening and then you're bringing like a laser into it,
Like that's a super interesting experiment. And if it's like, if the laser is acting like a microscope in the visual field or in the brain... It would be, it would just be, you know, what, what does that even mean?
You know, if people are all saying this, is this some sort of like epigenetic thing in the human brain that is happening because we're combining these chemical, we're taking in these chemicals and exposing ourselves to a certain light frequency or like. are we seeing the actual matrix? Are we living in the fucking matrix?
What else could be going wrong? You might want to check for mold too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was part of it. And yeah. Cool. Manhattan, huh? Dude. So obviously I've been a fan of yours and your show for a very, very long time. But it wasn't until a couple years ago that I made the connection between you and your dad. Because I was also a huge fan.
Yes. Yes, it makes it more fun I think and then when you combine I mean when you combine it with social media it's kind of like throwing gasoline on fire and then people and then when you also combine that with like a
Do you say that it's witches? Yeah, it's dependent on your culture and what...
The sensational headlines or narratives that you can come up with and post on social media, they organically get more eyeballs and more attention because you're attracting more people, right? People that are less – they don't think as critically. And on top of that, then you have people making careers out of this stuff, out of like taking these things and just running with them. Oh yeah.
Well, I did it. I tried the experiment. And it was also the first time I ever tried DMT. And I didn't see the code. Oh. I saw –
millions and millions of of little gears rotating and connected just all spinning like behind the wall no code at all oh interesting and i was expect i watched the documentary like like the day before or not the the teaser for the documentary the day before i did that and so i was like looking for the code but i couldn't find it all i could see was these gears spinning but maybe um
maybe I didn't get high enough. Maybe I needed to do more DMT to see it. I don't know. It was my first time ever doing it. Right. Have you ever heard of people that take a lot of DMT All of a sudden not being able to get high on it anymore or experience the psychedelic effect anymore? I have heard of that, yeah. What do you think is going on there when that happens?
Yeah. Something like that. Something like that, yeah.
So it's like a compounding thing that is like, it seems like it's completely gotten out of control. And I don't, I don't know how, whatever you can, I don't think you put the toothpaste back in the tube.
I could barely handle the vape.
I could barely, I was coughing like a maniac trying to inhale that.
And this is, this kind of goes, you, you talked about this a little bit with, uh, with Rick Strassman on your podcast, when you guys were talking about, um, telepathy and like brain chips, like what if people could communicate just telepathically and there was no filter and you, you, you eloquently stated telepathy.
Yeah. You would think it would be gradually onset, not just out of nowhere, just not work.
Wasn't DMT first discovered in a lab before it was ever found in nature?
Wow. Yeah. That's interesting. It is. I think the way that you describe, you know, you explain that there's kind of like this, this polarization between people who like plant based drugs that come from nature versus synthetically in a lab. And I think you described it very well. Like it's the same thing. Like we are, we are nature.
We are part of this earth and we are creating things the same way things are created by you know, chemically in the soil or out in the rainforest. Like we are just a product of this earth and we are using chemicals that are made on this earth to compound new chemical structures. Like it's all, it's all natural. Right. I thought that was a, uh, an interesting way of putting it.
Everything is simultaneously... But they're both the same.
Um, how like that would be terrible because people would not be able to edit what they're thinking. Like typically when you write, you have to like go through what you're writing and refine it so you can have the most coherent message and communicate authentically what your intentions are. But if you're just.
I have. Right. Yeah. I think the way you did it was great. Also like, so that toad that you guys captured in the Amazon rainforest and that you strung up and got it to secrete its venom. Yeah. Was that... when you took that, was it the, were you expecting the effect that you got from it when they burned your skin and rubbed it on your skin?
Or was that like, it seemed like you were just nauseated from it. Yeah.
Oh, okay. Yeah. That makes sense. um another thing i wanted to ask you was about nitrous what what uh what are the um like effects of nitrous on the human body and like what is the how would you describe have you done it oh yeah yeah what is like the therapeutic benefit of it
having this chaos of thought confusion in your head being transferred into somebody else then there's going to be like an insane level of miscommunication happening and that's like what's going on with social media i feel like yeah and it requires so much work to undo some kind of falsity that's been propagated that you can just totally lose track of reality and
You'd maybe have like a waxed silk. I knew this guy when I was younger. I used to work at a pizza place, and there was this old guy. who had a band called the Speed Wobbles, and he would always go to his van on his brakes, and he would go into his van and do whippets, and he had these little canisters of nitrous oxide that he would do.
I never tried it, but he always came in super happy after he did it.
do you think that like, like how would nitrous or any other sort of drugs that he could be on? Because, you know, I know he went to like a mental hospital and they probably gave him a lot of different drugs. I don't know if there were SSRIs or what they were, but like, How would that explain his current state?
you got to dance.
Yeah. I just wonder like what else, what other kind of drugs he's been given that are being combined with that. That's just like.
sending him into just a fucking never ending spiral, you know, that there's so many like weird, weird, like you would never think I never would have the suspected nitrous of all the things, but then you, you know, maybe he's just getting a lot of, uh, you know, new grills being made or something like that. And that has something to do with it.
Like when you're getting that work done and getting gold teeth, uh, Maybe that just comes with the territory.
And when you're people like when you're a person like like Kanye, like a like a public figure who has like an exorbitant amount of money and like you described having just like unlimited access to doctors who could get you anything you want. Like, yeah, nobody knows what the fuck that's like.
Or like, you know, even like Jordan Peterson, who's another great example, who, you know, went through, I think he was, he had to go somewhere like out of the country to do some sort of therapy. I forget what kind of therapy he was doing, but he was getting- Xenon, among other things. What was it? Xenon. Xenon. Yeah.
And he's another person who was like super polarizing and went from being like a professor at a university to being arguably like one of the most popular people on the face of the earth. Half the people loved him and then half the people absolutely despised him for the stuff that he was saying. And how that plays a role in someone's psychology.
and the way and the way that people like normal people will perceive them um what what is xenon the in the third season of my show there's a whole episode dedicated to it it's worth checking out it's a good is this is this um post vice No.
Oh, yes. I remember this. Yes. Okay.
Right.
I was pretty impressed with Flint at first. I thought that, I mean, Flint definitely did his homework and crossed his T's and dotted his I's with a lot of stuff. But then in hindsight, it seems like he was pretty slick in some moments.
yeah flint knew exactly what he was he he he tried to he tried to skate through that very very smoothly on the podcast but he no doubtedly tried to connect him to nazis yeah in that article and it's a good point to make or to highlight is that you know the idea that you know you you engage in these alternative ideas and there's somehow it's laced with racism excuse me
Holy cow, man. So after you did the ayahuasca, you never got any seizures or auras? No. How old were you?
Right.
I just had a genomics professor on here a couple of days ago and he was explaining how out of all like the plant, all the plant plants and other organisms that exist on this earth, we are the most homogenous one. Meaning that like out of all, he studied all the human genomes and our genomes are so
similar it's insane there's so few variants from the blackest person in africa to the whitest person in finland there he said that um all the common ancestors of humans today came from like 10 000 humans there was a bottleneck in humanity like like tens of thousands of years ago. And he's saying that, like, we are so closely related. It's unbelievable.
I also don't like what Flint did when he was on my podcast where he said that people who purchased these on the antiquities markets are doing a disservice to history. Or like they should belong in museums. They shouldn't belong.
He said that people who purchased these ancient Egyptian artifacts on the antiquities market are contributing to like a black market or like contributing to cartels and this kind of stuff. And I don't buy that. That seems like a cop out. That seems like, I don't know what that is, but that doesn't seem like it's coming from a good place.
I liked him. Me and him got along great.
Seven, eight years. Seven or eight years, really? Yeah.
The people that are against him online, it is the most extreme cult I've ever seen.
It's like, that is like, so a few years ago, you'd get kicked off social media for doing that for dead naming somebody or exactly.
then after the seizures happened you did the ayahuasca how many years later it's all a blur yeah in my 30s i believe yeah yeah my 30s and what do you think it was about the ayahuasca that that was able to completely get rid of the seizures and all that stuff it's a good you know it's anti-parasitic it has all these um efficacious applications for the human body
When was he from again? What time? What time period? Oh, 80s. I think he passed away in 2000.
Right. The first time I learned about you was from a gentleman by the name of Praveen Mohan. Oh, yeah. He was in here and he was pointing out some of the newspaper articles from like the New York Times from, I have no idea. I want to say it was like the forties and fifties maybe.
And they were showing actual excavations of these giant skeletons that were found in these mounds and like South America. And some of them were even in, I think one was in Texas maybe. And he was pointing out that like you were the like foremost guy around here that's researching this kind of stuff.
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It's linked below. Now back to the show.
Yeah.
So there was a lot more shacks walking around.
What's the biggest skeleton excavation that you've seen, a human skeleton, that you've actually looked at?
What's his name? How do you spell his name?
Herlichka? Yeah. H-R-D-L-I-C-K, Dr. Hurdley. So you can find something about this dude. He sounds wild.
There's a weird sort of legend around this area of Florida. We're on what's called Indian Rocks Beach right now. The beach that's literally a quarter mile that way is called Indian Rocks Beach. And it's called Indian Rocks Beach because allegedly there's all these Indian burial mounds that are around this area. And there's, for some reason, over the last couple hundred years...
Out of the hundreds and hundreds and thousands of hurricanes that have come up through the Yucatan and gone up the Gulf of Mexico, there's only been maybe two that have hit anywhere close to us. And they've gone probably at least 100 miles north or south. There's never been a direct hit within like – 50 miles of this beach in like a thousand years.
And the legend is because there's these Indian burial grounds protecting Indian Rocks Beach. And just last year, not even a year ago, maybe six months ago, there was a report that was in the news where this lady was like redoing her, like building a house and they like knocked down this huge Indian burial mound and excavated all these bones.
And in the last fricking three months, there's been like three hurricanes that have hit us direct. And there's one coming right for us right now too. That's supposed to hit next week.
This has been the worst three months of hurricanes that we've ever had in this part of Florida.
You know, Tony Robbins has gigantism too.
yeah it's like he's got the pituitary thing yes where he's like got the he had like a i think it was a maybe a a benign form of but he's got like the gigantism traits or whatever and he had that when he was young where he got like really big he's got the big jaw and the brow and he's like he's super tall yeah yeah it could be like acromegaly or something like that so he wrote this uh anthony roberts i believe
i think i think technology has has been one of the big reasons that we've sort of lost this connection this sort of spiritual connection that like we had you know like the like the native americans would have back in the day or like the experience that you get when you're on drugs or on psychedelics like dmt or ayahuasca or whatever because there's there's people that talk about how like when they first go to the amazon or whatever and they walk out into the jungle barefooted like all of a sudden all these deep senses sort of arise like deep from deep within them that have been buried because of this
technological advanced society we live in in North America where we're surrounded by screens. You can call a car to pick you up. There's an app on your phone to deliver food to your house. Like,
It's insane how much electronic shit and technology and just the evolution of technology that we've surrounded ourselves with I think is sort of destroying that connection to whatever sort of ethereal layer of consciousness that exists out there that some of the ancients would talk about.
We really are, right? Strong river. And Niagara Falls is not far. Yeah.
I mean, like CNN's laying everybody off. We learned that better than ever in this last election.
Yeah, man, that is super cool. That is very cool. What, so you, from when I talked to Hugh, he was telling, he was kind of explaining to me that you are really big into the investigation of the background of the Atlantis story as well. And from what I understand, Ignatius Donnelly was one of the first people to actually write a book about Atlantis, right? I forget the name of his book.
But I had Flint come on to talk about Atlantis. And all the shit that Flint talked about, me and him disagreed on a lot of stuff. We disagreed on the vases, the Egypt stuff. But one of the things that I think that made a lot of sense that Flint said that I just can't get out of my mind is the way he explained Atlantis and the backstory of Atlantis.
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His area of study, geographic location, Greece, and the time 12,000 to 15,000 years ago in that area of Athens, it lines up perfectly with the story of Atlantis and the people who are writing about Atlantis and Plato and all that stuff. Yeah.
The way he explained it to me, and I also had another friend of mine who is a classical philologist who has dedicated the last 30 years of his life to reading the ancient Greek literature. He read just endless amounts of philosophy, history, comedy, and pharmaceutical texts and medical texts in antiquity. And
His ideas on Atlantis as well as Flint's ideas on Atlantis seem to line up particular specifically in the fact that Plato.
seemed to be a philosopher who was known for coming up with philosophical hypothetical ideas on like how to build the ideal Sim City or coming up with war games, which was the idea of the Timaeus and Critias where they were coming up with a war game between Athens and this hypothetical city
advanced city of his of atlantis and what would happen in that hypothetical war is similar to his hypothetical idea of plato's cave right like we don't one of the main points that flint brought up is plato's cave the allegory of the cave was a a philosophical idea and an analogy he was trying to explain for humans to understand and that's the reason that we're not looking for plato's cave um
Another thing is the, you know, Plato was also really big. Like he wanted to censor. uh, Homer. He didn't want, he didn't want the kids that were growing up being educated to know anything about Homer because he thought that was not good for society.
He wanted to come up with this noble lie for society to basically create this sort of Santa Claus for people to, so people could behave well and act right, not commit crimes. Like he wanted this ideal, this ideal society. And he wanted to create this sort of like a noble lie where he thought, I mean,
To his credit, he thought that like, you know, the philosopher king should run society below them should be the knights and all this stuff. So, you know, he was known for coming up with these crazy hypothetical abstract ideas and these thought experiments. Right. And he wasn't known for being a historian.
So if you combine that with what we know of Plato, with the historical timeline of what we know about Atlantis, which is an oral tradition, the first time it was ever talked about was like a thousand years ago.
That I have. That lasts like five to 10 minutes, right?
uh before solon right and then it was an oral tradition for like a thousand years and then i might be in this up i'm gonna do my best but then solon told uh pliny the elder about it and then there was like
another couple hundred years and then pliny the elder told his grandson pliny the younger who was 10 years old and then there was like another hundred years and then there was like an egyptian priest who read some sort of texts maybe this was before all of it The temple priest of Sais transmitted the story to Solon. To Solon, right. But then there was never any actual evidence of that text.
He wasn't actually consulting the text when he told Solon, right? So this was prior to all these... transmissions going down this chain over thousands of years and then um 50 years after pliny the elder's grandson pliny the younger told socrates then another 50 years goes by and then plato writes about it no those are all good points flint is right that uh
I wonder, you've done both. Is it a similar sort of experience when you're on ayahuasca, just longer lasting? Yeah.
So after Plato wrote about it.
Oh, there we go. Ogygian flood is a flood in ancient Greek mythology that occurred during the region of Ogygius, a mythical king of Attica and Boeotia. Boeotia. Boeotia.
Interesting. It says survivors moved to Egypt, which was called Ogygia. Can you scroll down a little bit more so we can see like a timeline maybe or like dates? Ogygia. What happened to Ogygia? Click on the Wikipedia.
Oh yeah, it really does blow the top off. I felt my soul leave my body.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes. You know, some of that, I feel like some of that really only exists on social media, on places like Twitter and a little bit of YouTube and stuff like that. You know, my friend Julian Dory has this great theory. He's a born and raised in New Jersey kid. And he's got this theory he calls the Wawa theory.
He's like, if you go online and you look at some of like the far right or far left, most bloodthirsty corners of the Internet and see how riled up everyone is. He goes, if you want a real litmus test of reality, go to a Wawa. He's like, if I go to if I see if I go to a Wawa, he goes.
i see the guy with the i see the the girl with the green hair holding the door for the old guy with the vietnam hat reality is that it's not really what you see on social media and it's it's almost like the people who spend the most time on social if you spend too much time on these screens that sort of becomes your reality bingo yeah absolutely you know it's
People don't interact like that in real life, man. When you go to Wawa, you don't act like that to people.
Yeah.
Yep.
Right. Well, I think the podcast shit is a good antidote to the internet extreme shit because... you can just put your headphones in and listen to something uninterrupted for three hours. That's what I thought was so cool about that Trump podcast, because this is a guy who has this, he is probably the most, absolutely the most famous human being on earth.
And he's been hyper famous for decades, right? And he's got this incredible brand, this real estate, this real estate and entertainment sort of brand, right? Larger than life personality. But he exists in these, Overly produced television shows, commercials. And if you look at the news, like it's all kind of opinion, commentary, short clips and summaries of.
But there's what has not existed until now is. a long-form, three-hour, uncut stream of consciousness from that guy. And I thought that was the most profound thing that happened with that podcast. You actually get to see right through this guy and see what he's really about. Is he full of shit? Is he just a...
And he's the first president talking about this crazy epidemic of cancer and autism and diabetes and obesity in the country. That is the number one problem. That's the biggest killer out of anything. And he's the first president to actually talk about that in his campaign.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I mean, at the very least, like, if you want to call these guys, these people, like, if you want to call Trump like a sociopath or a liar, like, I'm sure he's lied before.
I'm sure he's got some narcissistic, possibly even, I don't know if he's, I wouldn't go as far to call him a sociopath, but I mean, you absolutely have to be a narcissist to some degree to be the president of the United States. But like at the very least, if he is lying, I mean, she's been caught. I mean, her and Walsh like literally have like lied their ass off objectively.
Like it's been discovered, like it's been exposed all those lies that they told during their campaign. But like if Trump's lying about all the shit that he's saying, at the very least, he's pretending to want to end the wars. He's pretending to support Bitcoin and he's pretending to try to like push this healthcare initiative with Bobby Kennedy.
So like, I'm going to take that over her any day of the week.
Yeah. He's saying he wants to free, he wants to release the JFK files. First of all, he wants to release Ross Ulbricht. So we'll see if he does this stuff. He says he's going to do it like first thing when he gets into office.
Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. We'll see if like, you know, cause the media is clearly owned by the left wing establishment and the, the, the party essentially the, the regime. So, and, and it's clearly that they got to figure out, you know, they don't know what the they were doing, especially with this election. They got really arrogant and they don't understand the,
how this landscape works they obviously were not able to like read the room as to like what was going on and with her like literally trying to dictate how she was going to do the trump podcast like you have to come to me and it's only going to be one hour because i'm too busy meanwhile the following week she literally cancels a rally and her plane does a u-turn in midair so she can go do snl so like you'll cancel a rally for snl but
You're too busy to do Joe Rogan. You're going to make him come to you. Whoever was in charge of that, maybe they're going to try to figure out what the fuck they did and try to...
figure out a new strategy here because trump is clearly trying to it looks like what he's trying to do is is bring more unity i mean he just came out saying that he was going to like pay off her debts or something like that recently yeah and like for the sake of unity and to bring the country together so we'll see if he can try to like turn this thing around and be more of like a jfk 2.0
Right, right man. What a Groove gruesome injury what you your your spinal fluid was coming out of your nose. Yeah, I Jesus. And then what did they... Like, when you first went in, like... I didn't know for years later. Were you in the hospital for a long time after that?
Yeah. No, I was same. I was same way raised like super, super left wing by my mom, who was a, has a master's degree in fine arts, lived her whole entire life in the university system. Still that blue, no matter who. And, you know, like having conversations with her nowadays is like,
The Democrats today are now they're like the ones that support the Iraq war. It's crazy.
Let's shift gears, talk about fish gods. Before we do that, I got to take a leak real quick. Take a quick pause. Fish gods. All right, where are we going, Steve? We're still going. All right, let's talk about some fish gods.
Robert Temple.
It was like... Yeah, no, it's... Brain injuries are known for being... They're known for being endocrine disruptors. So they can really affect your hormone regulation and like your testosterone levels. That's why a lot of football players or fighters or boxers or whatever that have had those extreme head injuries, they have to do hormone therapy after that.
Have you ever heard of John Marco Allegro?
Yeah, he translated the Dead Sea Scrolls. And it seems like there might be a connection, but he basically came up with this crazy theory that, well, he was reading and translating those Dead Sea Scrolls, first of all, like dedicated his life to that. And essentially the connection he made was with like... He thought that with the way Jesus was born, this immaculate conception, right?
He connected that to mushrooms. They come from rain hits the earth and they just appear. There's no fertilization that has to occur, right? They appear from mycelium. So it's kind of like the same way, like immaculate conception. So he theorized by connecting these Sumerian texts with the Hebrew texts that Jesus Christ was a psychedelic mushroom.
But one of the gaping holes in his reasoning there is he was connecting –
sumerian roots of words to hebrew and there is linguistically zero connection if you talk to classicists between those two languages so um for what it's worth you know that's that's an interesting connection oh there's a double-headed idol right there so i tell aaron zephyr that they said you should do a victory lap because the paper is brilliant he's like i would propose the idea that the first
That explains the depression, too, like low hormone, low testosterone levels and stuff like that that can affect your whole body, including your mood and your depressive states and all that. So how did you get into all the stuff you're doing now? You wrote two books about giants and Stonehenge and this ancient history. How did you get into this world?
Oh, yeah, yeah, I've heard of him. Yeah, Ben hangs out with him when he goes over there.
His dad apparently worked with Edgar Cayce, right?
I
But they were same, they were Egyptians still, just older Egyptians.
They were still African people.
Yeah.
Yeah. No, Ben was telling me, talking to me about Yusuf and how his dad was like a really big part of this Casey movement. Or I don't know, I don't know when Edgar Casey lived. I don't know if it was possible for his dad and Casey to know each other, but he was a part of this big Edgar Casey sort of organization, right? Yeah.
And they were, he was explaining to me that there's like a lot more underneath the Sphinx than we know. And a lot that hasn't been excavated or maybe has, but it's being held secret by like Zahi Huas.
Right, right, right, right. Crazy stuff.
He apparently, someone told him to, something told him to sleep on a book or something. So he literally took it literally, put the book under his pillow, apparently slept.
My favorite theory is Chris Dunn's power plant theory about the pyramids. I don't know if you're familiar with him. He wrote the famous book, he's a power plant. And then he followed it up recently with his new book, the Tesla connection. And he has this theory that basically the great pyramid was this electron, a solid state electron harvester.
And that, I mean, he's the only guy who's like a legitimate engineer who, who has back-engineered the Great Pyramid. He's looked through every single cavity and shaft inside the Great Pyramid, and he built a replica and reverse-engineered a way for it to somehow create free energy. And he has this theory, his variation to the theory. So he's evolved his original theory.
And his new theory essentially is that the Great Pyramids, the Great Pyramid and the two other pyramids, they sit on the Giza Plateau, which is a seismically active area there. So there's like a lot of seismic activity there and there has been through history.
And he's he hypothesizes that there was a hydraulic hammer device in the subterranean chamber that would hammer the earth and induce earthquakes, which would essentially bring up electrons through the igneous rock beneath the earth up through the pyramid, which is built with igneous rock with the limestone and all the granite.
and that how all those electrons would somehow come through the queen's chamber and there were shafts that were peripherally outside of the pyramid that they would pour What was it? It was some sort of acid. Yeah, yeah. Sulfuric acid? Maybe sulfuric acid. I could be f***ing that up. But they poured it in those... Shafts. Those... Well, they were like... There were pits outside of the pyramid.
Oh, yeah, sorry. And those pits...
fed the shafts that went into the queen's chamber right because they're he believes that they're connected that wouldn't after they sent that rover up those shafts and figured out there was that gate and brink's door there and they busted through the door because the door had these little two electrodes that were coming through which is why the fuck would why would there be little two uh copper electrodes coming out of that door that way up in the middle of that shaft in that pyramid that was supposedly a tomb and he thinks that the um it fed liquid the
That acid into those shafts and those electrodes were there to like keep the right amount of liquid in those shafts. And that would create this liquid or this this hydrogen that would come up through the Queens or the Grand Gallery will create some sort of resonant frequency. and create some sort of combustion in the king's chamber.
And the two shafts that came out of the king's chamber were like masers, right? That somehow created some sort of a field of free energy that he believes powered that civilization that was there during that time.
I love Chris. Yeah, what a great sense of humor that dude has.
Right.
And it seems like there's a lot of young Egyptologists that are coming up in Egypt that are taking Chris Dunn's stuff seriously and like looking more into it. So there's like sort of like a new guard who's looking at it. I'm like, we should look into this stuff that we don't understand. Like, what's the, like, we're never going to get anywhere if we just keep accepting the narrative.
You were just telling me you had a... What were you saying about your TBI? How did you get a traumatic brain injury? Playing football. Oh, really?
I think that's a kind of a. That seems to be the consensus with people who experiment with psychedelics. There's a guy who I had on the show about a year ago named Andrew Gallimore. I don't know if you've heard of him. Yeah, he's doing this study called DMTX out of Tokyo where he's putting people on extended state DMT trips. And they're essentially trying to like map the DMT realm, right?
And figure out like what's going on and try to build some sort of consensus or some coherence of what people are experiencing when they're on these things like ayahuasca and DMT and what's going on. Because there's a lot of very similar things. Like it's not just like everyone's having their own unique experience. A lot of people are seeing and reporting the same exact thing.
sort of things like entities and patterns and colors. And he is a neurobiologist. And what he seems to believe is that there's more of a reality there. And what our brain is is essentially like a filter. And our brain exists evolutionarily to filter out everything there so that we can only sense what we need to survive and to evolve and to reproduce.
And what happens when you're ingesting these substances and integrating with them is you're activating more of your brain so you can experience more of what's already there. Like reality, if we were to have our entire brain engaged and –
somehow be turned on it would be something that's so overwhelming for us we might just dissolve maybe we can only handle like a couple hours or 10 minutes of this but um it seems like there's definitely something there and when you and when you hear people talk about like their experiences with these drugs and tapping into this other realm or whatever it is they seem to talk about these kind of things
Right.
Never done ayahuasca, just DMD.
Yeah, no, it seems terrifying. Terrifying. I imagine, I always thought, from the descriptions I've heard of it, it sounds like you're literally going to hell and facing demons. Yeah.
hawking some new age philosophy but i'm telling you man it's you can't even feel it you don't even have to believe it you know when you when you're truly kind right you know yeah man yeah i think you're spot on with that what other kind of stuff are you looking into that are that you're working on like are you writing any new books are you are you working on any new shows
And there's this legend about... Is that picture of that person's feet real? Yes. With like seven toes?
No, I met a woman who said that she was born with an extra finger the other day. She was from like Haiti or something.
It's pretty common in something like the Caribbean islands.
Look at that. Giant footprint of Pingyan.
If you Google that, you'll, you'll, you'll get, what is the conventional explanation for these footprints? Like that one right there on that rock, that guy standing next to the Pingyan one.
Yeah.
Do you think these giants were responsible for some of the megalithic structures around the world?
Yeah, man, absolutely. What is that one on the bottom with all the holes in the ground? You see the one with the circular carvings in the ground?
This is in Colorado?
I'm just curious, I wonder what the academic consensus is on that and how do they try to explain it?
Totally, man. Well, Jim, thank you for doing this, man. This has been a fascinating conversation. Super fun to talk to you about this stuff. I love learning about this crap. You and Hugh are really... I think you guys are really onto something with what you guys are doing and teaming up on this work. It's fascinating shit.
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Thank you, man. And where can people find more of your work, get in touch with you?
Yeah, man. I appreciate your time. Again, we've got to get you on a flight. Oh, yeah.
We'll wrap it up. All right. Goodbye, world.
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Okay, interesting. But so the original Hebrew we don't have other than the Dead Sea Scrolls, is that correct? Correct.
Like the original Hebrew. So it was translated into Greek from Hebrew, but that original Hebrew.
We have the manuscripts. But we don't have the original manuscripts. We don't have the originals, but they're basically, what I'm trying to say is like scholarship tries to date them to a certain spot, but we don't know actually when they are because we don't have them.
We don't have the – oh, right, right, right. Okay, I see what you're saying.
Everything that we have is a copy or a rewriting.
You think that Jesus was a real historical person, right? Yes. And there are people you've debated that think that he's not. Yes. What is the argument to him not being a real historical figure?
What, a good argument? Yeah, what's the best argument you've heard?
Do we know when that drawing was done with the donkey head on the cross, the guy with the head and ass on the cross?
Right. And it is crazy, too. I mean, that goes with a lot of historical figures. Like, I think Moses is one. Moses wasn't written about until, what, like a thousand years after he supposedly died?
Yes. Yeah, totally. I mean, then the claims when it gets into him being divine and doing all these things and being able to, you know, that's the whole thing, which I read recently, this fascinating book that really gave me a really good understanding of
of of everything which was thomas pain um i forget the name of his i think it was the age of reason by thomas pain yeah no it's a classic oh my god it was such a good book yeah yeah no those these these uh these english deists were really something they really they knew a lot but they you know they didn't know what scholars know today about things like the bible Yeah.
And, you know, he explains how like the first the first Christian preachers, how they were, you know, selling Christianity. And then there was a second generation of Christian preachers, then the third generation of Christian preachers. And so. You know, how the ideas and the motivations and everything, everything gets lost in each generation.
And then eventually down the road, it's kind of like the starting point. We don't even remember where this started, but we do know that the preachers are making a living off of this stuff, right?
Yeah, I think one of the most profound things that I took away from that book was that it is by – it is the gift of reason that gives man the ability to discover God in the first place, because it's impossible. Like we didn't come from nothing, right? We go backwards in time. Like I came from my parents. My parents came from their parents. Like things don't just appear out of thin air.
So it is just by us being as intelligent as we are. We have to understand that we can't appear out of thin air. There has to be some sort of higher power, right? Without that gift of reason, You know, we don't have that. So it's like the human brain, there's something ancient in the human brain through evolution or whatever it is that makes it wired to be dependent on believing in a higher power.
Right, right. And a lot of those guys around Paine, like the founding fathers, they were masons, right? I suppose so.
Freemasonry was a big thing with the founding fathers.
Right. We were talking before we started about the ancient Greek, and I was telling you that I had a classical philologist in here who studied ancient drugs, and he said that the word Christ was originally a word for drugs, meaning to apply drugs to the skin or apply drugs to the eyes. And he basically was –
his basic theory is that, you know, Christianity was founded by these pagan drug cults, right? These like ancient drug and sex cults and Christianity is borrowing from everything that they're doing.
And most of the things that they were doing were drugs and not only drugs, but there was in the ancient world, it was constant plague, famine, hand-to-hand combat, uh, human and child trafficking was going on everywhere. There was pirates everywhere, uh,
And he thinks that a lot of this stuff was borrowed, these pagan cults, a lot of the traditions that they were doing were borrowed by Christianity. And he thinks that a lot of the words, basically, the best way I can describe it is And this is my understanding of what classics is, is that there's all this ancient literature that exists out there from antiquity, right?
You have the medical stuff, the comedy, the, you know, whatever, you name it. And then you have the biblical stuff, right? The canon and all the gospels. But then like if you veer out of that lane, there's all this other stuff that like you said earlier gives you context to what the words are.
What is the, in your view, the difference between biblical scholars and classical scholars?
And Amun was saying that in all of these texts in like Euripides, Galen, Sophocles, the word Christ is being used as a drug term. And he said everywhere. He said it's not just some – I'm not just like cherry-picking little things here and there. He said you can find it literally everywhere from when Jesus died and from like 100 years before and 100 years after he was dead.
The word Christ is being used as a term to apply drugs. And he even gave me some specific examples, which we can pull up. I don't know if you've heard of them or not. But one of them was he said in the – The book of Revelation 318, God says you must Christ your eyes so you may see.
And then there's another one where he says that in the gospel of Mark, Jesus says you can lift up snakes and drink death poisons that won't hurt you. What do you think about this?
He didn't sell books? He doesn't sell books anymore. He wrote a book, but now he tells everyone to pirate his books.
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I was trying to explain that Creo comes from a Shiach. Pull up Book of Revelation 318.
To anoint. What is that word? That's not even kriyo, is it?
And what is salve? Do you know what it's like made of?
Okay. Yeah. So there's no relationship to the word Christ.
So are you familiar with Euripides when he talks about Theodora? Yes. What is going on there? Wait, the Phaedra? You said Phaedra? Phaedra. I thought it was pronounced Theodra.
So one of the stories in Euripides about Theodra had talked all about this Christing, and he said that it gave really good context to why it is a drug term.
Steve, let's look at it. Can you pull it up for us? We'll just cruise the internet.
The Lady Babylon. Euripides. So you just casually warm up your mind in the morning by reading Greek?
And you read it in the Greek?
Oh, that's it. That is it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's what I was thinking of. So what is this story for people who don't know?
Okay, so there's no drugs used in this story?
Are you talking about his reference? If you just go to... He's saying that Christ is used in the context here.
And then doesn't he say something about lifting snakes and drinking death poisons?
It's at the end, right?
And in your opinion, which one of the ancient languages is the best ancient language?
Well, it's interesting that they say that in the Gospels it says they could be bit by snakes and it wouldn't affect them or wouldn't hurt them. It doesn't say that except for in these verses. In these verses that were added. That were added later by scribes.
Because Galen talks about or Galen created the Theriac for Marcus Aurelius that had snake venoms and snake viper flesh and all this stuff in there that was like a panacea that was supposed to be able to.
For what?
Because like one of the main reasons people were getting killed was the – all the deadly snakes that were in that part of the world. There were people who were dying from snake bites and stuff like that. So maybe – There was certainly medicine in the ancient world.
Well, yeah.
Maybe there was some sort of anti-venom or antidote to snake bites that was real.
It's so crazy to me because, like, I've been kind of like diving down the rabbit hole of this drug stuff. And I haven't been, me and Steve haven't been able to get any scholars to debate this guy. Like, there's so many of them. And we've had a couple of them that would be like, oh, yeah, we'd love to come do the podcast, right? Like, we want to be on the podcast.
And I'm like, okay, would you mind debating this man? Oh, no, sorry, I can't do that. I wouldn't be comfortable doing that. It wouldn't be productive.
Can you explain like the difference? What's the difference between like ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek?
Yeah, I don't know. I think that if somebody was confident enough in the classical stuff and they understood where he was wrong and where the holes were in his arguments, that they would be more than happy to come shut it down.
Yeah, but just like one of like the top classical scholars of Karl Ruck, the guy who wrote Road to Eleusis, you know, he confirms everything this guy says. And I like no other classicist that... Where does he teach? Yeah. He teaches at Harvard. I think he's retired now.
Let's pull up his bio.
Like he says that this guy, all the stuff about drugs is real. That they had drugs? Yeah. Of course they had drugs. Or no, that Christ was a drug.
There's podcasts where he says it, but this is just his bio right here. This isn't like, go up. Where's his PhD from?
No, he corroborates a lot of the things that Amen says, and Amen's the one who says that Christ is a drug term. Creo, okay, fine, fine. I mean – Yeah, so that's why you understand my – I'm so perplexed. That's why I'm just saying that.
Right. Okay.
Liddell.
Oh, the LSJ.
We've been on this website before, I believe, Steve. I don't remember this. This is it.
There you go. Dogma.gr. Perseus Tufts. Perseus Tufts. That's what it was. Really? Yeah, that's what we've been using.
All right. Here we go. We're making some progress here, folks.
All right, so it means... To be rubbed on, used as ointment, or salve. Anointed. Messiah.
Oh, wow, look at that. Euripides is right there.
Okay, Euripides.
Drug drink.
So is it used as a drug term here?
You'd be surprised if that happened?
How much earlier than the Septuagint was he?
Okay, doesn't this say that he uses the word Christ?
The verb.
No, I know. I talk to all of them. There's only one that tells me that it's drugs, and that's Amun.
But then his argument is, he says that the only other person that corroborates him who's been dead for a long time is a guy by the name of Julius Africanus.
I'm sorry. Actually, what Julius Africanus said was that the Septuagint was an original Greek, or at least parts of it was an original Greek.
Apparently, he was a linguist, or he was a classicist.
Right.
Right, okay. And then when Jesus was arrested in the park at 4 a.m. in the park with the boy- We're not told what time it was. We're not? Okay, so- No. Was it at night? If it was at night or day, do we know when the SWAT team came?
Um, and then the next day, about eight hours later, roughly around eight hours, he died. He's crucified. He dies and he dies early.
Right. And he's crucified. Who were the guys that were crucified on each side of him? What were their, uh, what were their charges?
So we have no idea what they were crucified for? What's the consensus, scholarly consensus?
Okay. So going back to some of the – some of the stuff about Christianity and some of like the early sects of Christianity. One of the things that you've written about a lot is the idea of the virgin birth story, the immaculate conception.
It's about the birth of his mother. About the birth of his mother. Yes. Okay. And where does this idea originate, come from? Like, where are they getting this?
So they're saying that he, how was he born if he didn't come through the birth canal? It's a miracle. It's a miracle.
Did they do C-sections back then?
Oh, wow. I had no idea. It's named after Julius Caesar.
Wow. That's fascinating. That is fascinating. Right, but you were going to ask me about the virgin birth. Yes, yeah, I was originally asking you about the virgin birth. So that didn't borrow from any other ideas or any other myths?
Yeah. It seems like the Greeks and these ancient cultures were obsessed with this stuff. They were just obsessed with this like nasty. With what, sex? Yeah, they were obsessed with this.
Every culture's obsessed with sex. No, I mean, it seemed way more than us. I mean, it seemed way, it didn't seem like, let me put it this way.
Maybe not, maybe not more obsessed, but it didn't seem like there was the cultural sanctions around this kind of stuff that there was, that there is now.
Which brings me to my question about Jesus and Mary and the greater questions of Mary. What was going on? What? What was going on on the mountain with Jesus and Mary? What was Jesus doing up there?
They're about to find out. I saw you wrote about this in your blog, which got me interested in it. Actually, during a recent podcast, we brought up your blog and we were showing it to people.
Yeah. This has been a highly contested topic on this podcast recently when it comes to exactly what you were just talking about with Greek being everywhere in antiquity and there being no Hebrew outside of like the Dead Sea Scroll.
From what I understood was that he brought Mary to the mountain and he said something like, you have to eat my semen or something like that.
Pull up Bart's blog, Steve, so we can show the people.
There we go. Look at that. Rated R. Rated X. Wow. Punch in on it. There we go.
The greater questions of Mary. Epiphanius claims to have read this.
Why was Jesus doing this kind of thing?
um all the ancient hebrew texts were religious texts however greek you you have legal shit you have uh medical stuff you have all kinds of all kinds of stuff in greek poetry comedy everything but then you have like the dead sea scrolls come about and we just have the dead sea scroll religious texts right and there's no other hebrew you can find there's no libraries with any hebrew in them or anything like that so that's basically true but it's not completely true okay
So he's making this all up so he can have an excuse to participate in this sick shit himself.
Okay, I see.
So it's not likely that Jesus actually did that.
That's interesting. And that's another hard part of this whole field of study and studying these ancient texts is because you're like reading all this stuff, all this historical stuff. And just think about the world we live in today with the news. Imagine in 5,000 years from now, they're going back and reading the news today.
The news is... I read a headline, and 90% of the time, there's about 1% of truth in that headline.
And then on top of that, people have axes to grind against other people and, you know. Yeah, yeah, right. So that's another thing that just, to me, makes this whole thing so confusing. Yeah.
And in today's day and age with the internet, you have people with different views on the ancient world, and they want to dedicate their whole life and build a career off arguing with people about what happened thousands of years ago or what people were talking about thousands of years ago.
Right, right. Is there any, I don't know if you know how much you know about Sumerian, but is there any links from Hebrew to Sumerian? Are any of the roots similar?
Okay. And you can do that with Sumerian and Hebrew? There is some sort of a link there?
right yeah that's what i thought because there is a uh a guy who's come up on this pot he's dead now but he's come up on this podcast many times who uh wrote a book called the sacred mushroom in the cross yeah and the premise of his book was about taking the roots of ancient sumerian into hebrew and i think i don't think you can do that i think that basically like takes part you know tears apart his whole hypothesis well i'm not an ancient i'm i i don't work in ancient near eastern linguistics and so i'm not right yeah right
Um, but yeah, no, his theory was that the, the idea of, uh, immaculate conception was the same thing as a mushroom because a mushroom, you don't pollinate it. Mushroom comes from mycelium basically like it's rain comes down on the earth and the mushroom is, is born out of the earth.
For some reason, he was taking Sumerian roots and applying them to Hebrew words. And he was studying the Dead Sea Scrolls for like years. I think he studied the Dead Sea Scrolls for like 50 years. It's not John Allegro. John Allegro. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right. Yeah. That combined with the fact that one's a Semitic language and one is from, you know, near Eastern. Right. I think that kind of like blows that out of the water.
He's claiming that how a mushroom appear, a mushroom come, basically a mushroom doesn't have to be pollinated like any other plant on earth, right? It doesn't have to be, it's not pollinated. So it's like being born of a virgin. That was his connection that he made. It's got nothing to do with Sumerian or Hebrew. No, that idea, right. It's biology.
That's just one of his arguments to support how Jesus Christ was a mushroom. A psychedelic mushroom, may I add.
But that gets a lot of people into this stuff, too. It's kind of cool because it's like maybe they're crazy, maybe it's outlandish, but it gets a lot of people who would otherwise not be interested in religion. Maybe they're like, ooh, maybe he's on to something, and they fall down the rabbit hole.
I think it is good because then they find your book and they realize, oh my God, this shit's wrong.
Like I got into this stuff from a guy who told me that Christ was a child trafficker who was giving people drugs and he's a drug cult leader.
And that got me interested in this stuff.
Now I'm here in front of you and I'm figuring out, you know, maybe there's more to this.
And there's another thing about scholarship, too, is when you're a part of an institution like that, it's also interesting. It's frowned upon to come up with a theory that doesn't fit in with consensus. People are afraid of it.
Well, I mean, would you say in general, though, that people in scholarship, they typically walk on eggshells? When it comes to discussing new ideas or coloring outside the lines or anything like that?
Right. And so the scholarly consensus, and this is another thing I don't understand that I've heard so much from Bible scholars, is they always say most scholars would agree. Why is consensus so important when it comes to this stuff? Why doesn't, for me, I just, maybe I don't understand this because I didn't come from a university or anything.
Right. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot to it, for sure. I think it's complicated and it's really hard to parse out.
Exactly. Well, that's one thing. I had a scholar on here who was telling, we were, we were discussing the word Lacedace and we were looking it up on, on the website we were just on here.
The Perseus. And it said, Perseus Tufts. Exactly. And it gave us,
a couple definitions i think one of them was robber one of it i think robber was like the main one pirate pirate and robber and then he and then this guy goes oh no that's the wrong dictionary he goes you got to look at this dictionary it says he's a revolutionary yeah see it see that well so that's problematic he's he's problematic if he's saying that because it means both things in different contexts all three things pirate robber and revolutionary yeah
But the one dictionary didn't say pirate or robber. It only said revolutionary.
Or if, in Julius Caesar's case, he says, the Lacedace captured me and held me ransom.
Yeah.
So if Jesus was in the park with a kid at 4 a.m. or whatever it was in the middle of the night, and the SWAT team pulls up on him and he goes, why are you...
So you're saying he doesn't say, why are you guys pulling up on me like I'm a Lacedace when the kid's there? That's in two different versions.
You don't even need. I will look at it right here. He's got it. We've got two versions. Oh, yeah.
So like out of all the definitions we have, obviously he's not saying, why are you pulling up and be like, I'm a pirate. Like, why would you be a pirate?
Why are you coming at me like I'm a laystace? Yeah, that's it. What am I stealing here? You know, it is weird that he's with the kids.
Yeah, me neither.
What was the word for it again? Sindon.
Right.
The secret, I have heard of the secret gospel.
Sure. Well, I mean, it is... I mean, I can imagine how that's frowned upon by most people.
Especially if they're theological scholars.
So, my introduction into this, Ammons, you're probably going to laugh me out of the room after I tell you this. His theory, his drug, the drug theory of what's happening in the park is Jesus was participating in the mystery in the upper room prior to when he was in the Garden of Gethsemane. And he was drinking viper venom, the death inducer.
So his idea of how people participated in the mystery was they would ingest the viper venom, come up to the edge of death to where they're about to die, and then they would take the antidote. And according to Galen, the way they came up with the antidotes to things like viper venoms was...
sort of like antibody therapy like ancient antibody therapy so they would take young people who had way better more robust immune systems they would slowly give them uh an introduction to viper venom with a small cut in the skin where they'd wrap the they'd impregnate the bandage with venom wrap the cut in the skin so they would do a slow introduction of the venom so it wasn't enough to kill them but their body would fight it off and create antibodies
So then they would use the young person's bodily fluids as an antidote for the older people who got high on the viper venom. So you get high on the venom and then you take the body fluid so you don't die, right? So it would save you. It'd be the antidote. And what Amund says was the antichrist because the drug was the Christ. Ha! The drug was the Christ. The antidote was the antichrist.
All right. Okay. So the kid had the bandage on him because he was the antidote because Jesus was tripping on viper venom in the park, right? The kid was there because Jesus needed that kid's bodily fluids so he wouldn't die from the viper venom. It was his antidote. So he would survive that psychedelic trip that he was on. The kid ran away.
jesus was crucified when he's on the cross he's screaming out he's thirsty i'm thirsty they tried to give him the sponge his his followers tried to give him the sponge which had the antidote on it the antidote for the deep sauce according to nonus the antidote to the horned north african viper and jesus said no he refused to take it and he died early Because he refused to take the antidote.
And that's an explanation to why Jesus died early and why he was screaming and why he was so thirsty on the cross is because when he was arrested in that park, the boy was his antidote and the boy ran away. So he didn't get his antidote. That's a fun one, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is, like I said, this is like, it's fascinating, and it would be great if I could get him in the room with a scholar that has the capacity of the Greek who could combat him. Because most Bible scholars, they don't understand the Greek to the level of a classical philologist.
Well, it's a cop-out if you're using it as an argument. Yes, exactly.
Aren't most biblical scholars, though, like this is the contradiction of a Bible scholar, is that most of them, and correct me if I'm wrong, they subscribe to Christianity. So they're a scholar of their own belief.
Right. It's tribalism.
Yeah, no, it's interesting because most people, you know, most religious godly people, they don't look that deep into this stuff because it gets messy when you really get deep into it. You know what I mean? It's the general idea of it. Like we were mentioning, talking about...
we were talking about thomas payne earlier like the general idea of believing a higher power and the idea of jesus it's like a good moral framework for society right but when you really like that's the whole point of you know what your your history is and the stuff that you've looked into is like when you start to excavate all these texts of of ancient history and the gospels and all that thing you'll find out that it's really messy and it's not that simple but that's like you can't you can't discount
You know, the moral value and the structural framework that religion provides for society.
Right. Yeah. That's an unfortunate part of human nature. What's going on with the book of Job?
So I learned about the book of Job reading about Thomas Paine, and he basically explains that it's completely disconnected from anything else in the Bible.
Right. So one of the folks I had on here recently believes that the Septuagint, it was originally written in Greek and that it was translated into Hebrew. And the reason he said that is because, and I'll try to elucidate this argument the best I possibly can, and you can basically deconstruct it and give me what you think. is that ancient Greek is a language that had over a million unique words.
Okay. And then Job also mentions a lot of things like that, like about astronomy and all kinds of astrological things that the Jews didn't know about necessarily. That's at least how Thomas Paine explained a lot of scientific stuff. That's not true?
Yeah, I heard that there's actual, there's Zodiacs and like the temples in Tel Megiddo.
Okay.
Right, yeah, and then synagogues, which is interesting.
Ancient Hebrew is a language that had maybe 7,000 at best unique words. And he made the argument that you cannot translate from something less technical Hebrew to something way more technical ancient Greek. He says you translate down. You don't translate up.
In the synagogue. Wow. Did you see there was a... there was a recent discovery that was made and actually the university of Tampa, which is close to here, they found a, a mug from the God, uh, best, best, let's get an Egyptian God mug. Huh?
Um, that had, they, they like somehow did a study on it and they found out, uh, like they figured out the cocktail that they were using in this mug and it like, can you pull it up, Steve? Oh, no, I don't know what this. Oh yeah.
There you go.
Ritual drug war. When did they date this to? Oh, Jesus. Let's see here. Ancient Egyptian mug from the god Bes ingested mixed psychoactive drugs, human blood, and other bodily fluids in mysterious ceremonies, according to a new paper. Fifteen authors of the paper reported in the research square prior to the academic peer review. Come from institutions including University of South Florida.
When did they say this was? Oh, okay. 16th century.
So what does it say? Scholars have speculated that they may have been used to hold perfume or holy water, wine, or beer. God. Co-members may have drunk from them. Oh, my God. But the residue of their contents has rarely been studied.
Bodily fluids, man. Go back down. Type in bodily fluids. See what it says, what bodily fluids it was.
Keep going. Go to the next one. Such as vaginal mucus and breast milk and human blood.
Oral or vaginal mucus and breast milk and the blue water lily. Holy crap.
That's great. God, that's crazy, man.
Wow. And Bess was, who was Bess? He was a guardian figure until he became a Roman era divine being. Oh, shit. Bess, deity Bess. Mm-hmm. Oh, interesting. Roman era divine being that provided protection from danger and averted harm.
Hmm.
Antiquity was a fun place to be.
I had a guy in here who brought in a... He's a collector of... He buys stuff on the antiquities markets, and he buys these...
these granite vases vases yeah and they were i guess they were found in like um the bent pyramid or something one of the peer a couple one of the pyramids in egypt and they were like all just down at the bottom of them and he paid like hundreds of thousand dollars hundreds of thousands each per one he says like a few dozen of these vases he's purchased and um
So you don't – like if I was to – the analogy I think of that I try to explain when I talk about this is like you find a flying saucer in the desert and you want to like reverse engineer it and make your own flying saucer. When you try to reverse engineer that flying saucer, you're not going to make something better than that flying saucer. It's going to be something not as good, right? So –
I guess Egyptology dates them to being around the time of like 2000, maybe 2500 BC roughly when they were created. And the way that the consensus of how they were shaping these things were just based on hieroglyphs and depictions that are written here. or like drawn on cave art or whatever, is that they like were hammering and chiseling these things with like pounding stones and copper chisels.
That's the tools that they had. But then he took one of his vases to an aerospace company, like a big aerospace company in like the Midwest. And they put it under a light scanner and they found out that this granite vase, which is one of like the hardest stones that we have, is perfectly symmetrical from top to bottom within the deviation of a human hair.
Like it was almost spun on, like even more symmetrical than you find like a piece of clay that's spun on a wheel. Interesting, yeah. And it was made 2000 years ago. And it's like, so basically if you wanted to recreate, if we, if our culture wanted to recreate it today, you would have to do it on like a CNC machine or something like that, like make it on a computer.
Yeah. It's so mysterious how the, how some of this stuff was, was, was able to be created. You like root beer? We'll see. That's root beer flavor. That's great. Delicious stuff. White rabbit shot out.
Um, it's just so mysterious and, and it's so interesting and it gets people, you know, and it's a, it's a, it does that, that phenomenon where people like to fill in the gaps with their minds of what it was like, was it God or was it aliens? You know what I mean? Like the, like those are the two choices.
Those are our choices these days. It's a miracle. Or maybe we had human beings had technology that was more sophisticated than we have today, right?
Have you heard of the Younger Dryas hypothesis?
That was his main argument with the translation of the Septuagint, meaning that's why he thought it was an original Greek. And then it was translated into Hebrew after. But the argument of this is that the Greek that we read in the New Testament or the Old Testament is like Koine Greek. It's like a very unsophisticated Greek compared to like Homer and some of the ancient stuff.
Basically, it's the idea that around... I want to say it was 16,500 years ago, roughly around then, during the end of the Pleistocene, there was some sort of either cosmic comet impact or like a solar flare ejection that happened that melted the end of the Ice Age, right? Like if comets hit around the Earth, like we went through some sort of like asteroid belt or something like that.
or meteor stream that comets hit the earth, melted all the ice, flooded the earth, and basically wiped out like 75% of civilization. And it kind of like reset us, right? So like there's people that like to connect that idea with the fact that maybe human beings had some sort of advanced ancient technology that was erased from the face of the earth when one of these cataclysms happened.
What's up, Dr. Ehrman? Thanks for coming, man. Okay, thanks for having me. Pleasure to meet you. Nice meeting you. What's your background?
Because there is archaeological evidence that like with the black matte layer And other things that there was some sort of a cosmic event that happened on Earth that ended the Ice Age and would have wiped out a lot of people and potentially some sort of technology that we had. And that civilization was reset. And maybe this could be an explanation for some of the flood myths as well.
Because the flood mists are everywhere, right?
Oh, yeah, we're getting rid of it.
Yeah, what happened? Someone bought it? Did Elon Musk buy it or something? Or he's trying to buy it?
Yeah. Anyways, Bart, thank you so much for coming, man. You're welcome. This has been a really fun conversation.
Tell people where they can find your work, where they can find your blog, all that fun stuff.
Beautiful. That's really cool. Making this stuff accessible to just anyone online who wants to learn about it.
Cool, man. Well, we'll link it all below so people can check it out. That's great. And thanks again. I appreciate your time.
Thanks for having me.
Sure, but just going off evidence, right?
Sorry?
I'm saying just going off evidence of word counts, unique word counts for those languages. Today, we only have 7,000 unique words for ancient Greek. We have over a million. I mean, I'm sorry. We only have 7,000 for ancient Hebrew, and we have a million for ancient Greek.
That's what we have today. Those are estimates, right? Those are samples, maybe?
And you mentioned that when you were younger, you had a belief and you were a practicing Christian. That's right. And what happened to you? What was your evolution through your belief in Christianity?
Okay. But do you think the scale was similar, though?
Okay, what would be a good example of something that went from, of a translation that went from a language that was less complicated to something far more complex?
Interesting. So my understanding of the Septuagint is – And correct me if I'm wrong, the Septuagint was allegedly written around between 300 and 400 BC? No. No. Okay, when was it?
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I mean George Bush's speech was pretty sinister. It was pretty scary.
Well, they have to clean all of the sewage, right? And they put them in these giant circular vats, these giant concrete vats, where they treat it with tons of chemicals, not just fluoride, right? And that's the city water. That goes into everyone's faucets in the city typically. And in order to clean that water, you have to put a ton of chemicals in there to clean it.
And I'm sure fluoride is one of those chemicals that is responsible for cleaning and sanitizing that water for people to drink it and use it to shower and stuff like that.
Yeah, it's just bizarre that a fucking dentist was able to get this implemented into the entire country. And it's still here 90 years later. They haven't reviewed it or revised this.
Well, I brush with non-fluoride toothpaste.
Wasn't there, how many studies did you look at and revolving fluoride and, um, drop in IQ?
Yeah. And what did they – the studies were on rodents? Or were they on humans? These were on humans. Oh, really?
And wasn't there also a study that basically looked at every single country across the world and found that the countries with the highest levels of fluoride in their water had the same number of reports of cavities as countries that had – There was countries with tons of fluoride compared to countries with little or no fluoride, same amount of cavities.
I wonder what countries or parts of the world have people that live the longest. I know Costa Rica is one of them. Remember we had Chip on here. Steve, he was talking about the blue zones across the world. Costa Rica was one of them. Isn't Japan too? I'm not sure. Maybe.
Yeah, it's their diet, it's their stress level, it's their lifestyle. I mean, it's how they get their food, too. Like, they're not eating crazy processed food. Grease, too. Yeah, grease. Okinawa, Japan, Italy. Okay.
Blue zones. Oh, Ikaria, Greece, and Nicoya, Costa Rica. Now, can we cross-reference these cities or areas of the world with fluoride? Fluoride in the water? Yes.
Hmm. Well, this will be fun.
Drinking water in Okinawa, Japan does not contain fluoride.
Well, that's only one. That's one. Okay, we got one out of what, six or five?
Okay, it's Okinawa. What's the second one? Sardinia, Italy. Oh, no, we don't have AI to help us here.
Wait, is this, okay, so environmental issues and cases.
Fluoridation in Italy.
Except for isolated locations near, what, what did I say? I don't know where you're reading that. Okay, except for isolated locations near volcanoes or polluters. Fluoride in water is low across the country.
Yeah, let's find out about Greece.
Me too. We'll bring Amin with us.
We know what fluoridated water is. Is fluoridated... Is water fluoridated in Greece? No. There is no water fluoridation in Greece. Okay. Wow! Here you go. Interesting. Let's go. What's the other one? There's at least one more.
Nicoya, Costa Rica.
Probably just because they generally don't do it, I would imagine. I'm sure they're not doing it for a specific reason. No, there's no fluoride in Costa Rica.
What the fuck, dude?
That's interesting too, rice. I never knew rice was healthy. Yeah. I always thought rice was like a car, like a car, but I guess it's not processed. It's not white flour, right? White flour is the, the, the worst thing you can eat.
Bleached white flour. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's, it's super processed and it just like clogs up, gums up your arteries. And, um, but rice is not like that, which is kind of like surprised me.
As long as there's not a lot of mercury in it.
At one point they were, they were feeding, they were supplying all the schools in Japan with dolphin meat. Wow. Dolphin like flipper. And there was a crazy epidemic across Costa Rica where the kids were getting this neurotoxin, this mercury poisoning. And it was really messing them up, man. Really? Big time. People were getting sick. Can you Google when that happened?
I want to say it was in the... I want to say it was in the 70s or the 60s. Oh, wow. Type in mercury poisoning epidemic in Japan. No, no, no. Japan. Oh. Minamata. That's what it was. Minamata disease was linked to poisoned water in a fishing village in Japan in the 50s. Jeez. Nearby company was dumping waste leading to high levels of mercury. That's not what he said.
He said it was because they were supplying the schools with dolphin meat.
So it was making the mercury in the water way higher, and that was contaminating the fish. Then they were eating the fish, which was really screwing people up, man. Yeah. And the same with whale meat, too, that has high levels of mercury. Interesting. Any big pelagic fish.
The smaller the fish... the better, the least amount of mercury. Interesting, yeah. Like sardines. That's the healthiest fish you can eat because there's the least amount of mercury in it.
Rick was saying something about salmon. He was saying, I don't know how accurate it was, but he was saying that the salmon is really unhealthy because it's all grown on these farms.
Yeah, seriously. Right. Yeah. But most of it's farmed, right? Like how much of salmon that you eat at the sushi restaurants, how much of that is farmed versus- Probably tons. The majority of it, right?
Like I specifically seek it out. Oh, do you catch it yourself? No, no.
Oh, okay. Yeah.
I heard they actually like they diet to make it pink too.
Right.
Yeah, see? Yeah. Look on that second one to the right, or either of those two, the top left, two top left ones. Looks disgusting. Look on that. Can you blow it up? Ugh. So the farmed one's light pink. Yeah, that looks like my sushi. Yes, yes. The one on the right almost looks like ahi tuna. It's so dark, you know? Leaner, cleaner, naturally pink. Yeah, man. Fuck.
Yes.
Wow. Look at that difference, bro. Yep.
I got to stop eating the salmon. I was eating sushi. We had sushi last night and all the salmon looked just like that.
Tons of it? No way. They can't do farmed tuna, though, right? I think you can farm whatever you want. Really? Yeah. Can we farm that? There's no way they farm-raise tuna.
There's no way. I'll be shocked. Farm tuna is tuna that can be raised in pens or tanks, either in the ocean or land. But do they do it, though? If it can grow, they'll farm it, yeah. Ranch. Young tuna are caught in the wild and moved to pens in shallow sheltered waters in bays or coves. There they are fed until they reach sushi-grade quality, and they are sold in markets.
The method is primarily used for Atlantic bluefin tuna. which is a profitable stock for the global fish market. They're usually caught between May and July. Where do they do this?
I thought they caught it all, though. In Japan.
Admiral's Feast. That was all fried food. Yeah. Dude, it was so shitty.
They've always been the biggest seafood and fish exporter, I think. But I think that's because of where they are. Yeah, right. And it's an island. Most fishing happens in Japan. Sure. The biggest fish market is there. But I didn't know they actually farmed fish there. Why would they need to farm fish when they have the most?
They're like in the middle of the ocean and they like have all these fishermen and these whaling boats. Yeah. convenience man what does this say japan has over 100 tuna farms holy dude you got the mediterranean japan and croatia
They don't farm tuna. What? Human beings are just, we're just killing ourselves with convenience.
Like, Oh God, so bad. So bad. I was like, I was just in Costa Rica for a week and we were eating, uh, We weren't eating like great food. Like we were eating like burritos and we were also eating like stuff like, you know, Costa Rican food, like loads of rice and beans and like ceviche and stuff. And then tons of tacos, even like sometimes we had burgers and shit.
But even after we had like the shitty stuff, like the burgers, you didn't feel like you feel after you eat a burger. Oh, yeah. You feel light. You don't feel like you just ate a fucking pound of concrete. Yeah. And it, you know, it's all because it's not processed.
damn that's fucking scary dude i don't eat too much tuna so i'm not affected but yeah why don't you tuna i don't like it i prefer salmon yeah yeah the flow so the back to the fluoride thing yeah um you said that the the studies the few studies that you did look at that correlated fluoride to a drop in iq they were bullshit
Right. Right. Yeah. I would just be curious to whether the fluoride is necessary for cleansing and sanitizing the water or if they still add it for the dental purposes. Like, do they really give a fuck about our teeth still in 2024? Like that much? Like there's so much other shit. We got like fucking loads of homeless people on the streets. They're walking over to get into the Capitol building.
Like we really care that much about our teeth.
But there's only like three or four states that don't, right?
Can we find that?
Let's find out. What states don't fluorinate water? Or is it county by county?
As of March 2024, Hawaii is the only state that... Okay, they banned fluorinated water for public water. That's fucking amazing. That's funny. I don't know why. Most other states leave it up to individual water systems or localities to decide. So, okay. Some cities like Jacksonville, Florida, Colorado Springs, Colorado, El Paso, Texas do not add fluoride to their water because...
They have naturally occurring levels that meet or exceed the CDC's recommended 0.07 milligram per liter to reduce tooth decay. Texas in particular has naturally high levels of fluoride due to oil deposits and rocks. Okay, so Hawaii is the only state that doesn't fluorinate water with chemicals? Or they just, are they, it says that it only say the bands.
Municipality. Right. Okay. I got it.
Like, yeah. You know, So would well water stop all this if you drank from well water, if you dug a well?
If there's not natural fluoride in the area, yeah. I got one of those reverse osmosis water filters under my sink. I think those get rid of most of the bullshit. I hope so. I heard they also get rid of the minerals, the good stuff in the water.
What is the most popular video on your channel? Anatomy of a Headshot. The Headshot one.
And it was stayed monetized or no? Yes. It did. I know. Yeah. That's incredible. Well, you don't actually show any blood or anything in there, do you?
They do that to me all the time. I forget like a video from three years ago just got hit.
Three years ago.
Yeah. It's always like profanity or something like that.
But wow, the anatomy of a headshot is the most interesting. People are really interested in that, especially right now after that assassination attempt. Timing, right? I saw like four videos last night of people doing, I sent one to Steven. Remember that one? So people are like doing simulated shots.
Have you seen the channel where they have like this head made of jelly with a skull inside of it and they shoot it?
Maybe. It's incredible, dude. They shoot this jelly head with a skull inside of it. It's supposed to be the actual composition of flesh and gray matter in a head. And then they film it at like 100,000 frames a second. And they show what happens. And they were doing some ballistic tests. They were shooting like an old shitty AR-15 at this head. And they were trying to clip the ear. Oh, wow.
They were trying. Can you find that video I sent you? It was Brandon Herrera. Brandon Herrera. That's who he was. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So click on that and see. So yeah, it's beautiful. Just turn the volume down.
And then like, he's like, because there's a lot of people that are saying that what happened was like a coordinated PR stunt where like he hired a sniper to shoot his ear to make him turn him into a martyr or a hero.
So he tried to do it and he actually did. I think he did a pretty good job at it. Go a little bit farther, a little bit farther. Yeah, right there. Watch this, dude. But this is like, obviously, this is not 150 yards away. This is like point blank pretty much.
Yeah, that's totally cheating. Yeah, he's definitely cheating. Watch this. Watch this.
That's incredible, dude. But then this other kid did it too. And he actually did it from like 150 yards away from like a shitty like aluminum roof.
But he had like a really high precision scoped rifle, right? bolt action or something, right? Yes, it was a bolt action scoped rifle with a really good scope on it. Not like that kid had. That kid had like a little like, what was it, like an iron sight with a red dot?
It was like a red dot deal. Um, but this guy used like a, a high level scoped in rifle bolt action rifle from 150 yards away. And he was trying to clip the ear of a mannequin head. And yeah, this is him. Just go to the end. It'll show you where he ended up hitting it. I think there was only every single one of his shots took off a significant portion of the thing's head. Yeah.
here we go so well that's a that's a hunting rifle though too yeah exactly that's way more accurate than what that kid had right and the caliber is way more destructive too look at that that's you're fucking dead if a bullet hits that jeez dude
Yeah, right?
And this rifle is, I don't know, like five times more accurate? What would you say, Steve?
If that thing hits your skull right there, your brain's gone, right?
Oh, really?
One of them went in the nose. Jeez, dude. Gosh. What a place to get hit. So what was your research like? Did you ask your dad about what happened? I mean, I'm sure people get that shot in the head. They don't go to the ICU. They're just going straight to the hospital.
Don't demonetize us.
Survive, right? Survive. You might be a vegetable after.
Also, the guy who was there when Reagan, the attempted assassination on Reagan, Brady. Brady, yep. He got shot in the head, right?
Um, so first off you want the smallest, is she like functioning normally?
All right, Steve, we remember we can't show this stuff. Okay.
Like what made him want to be in the ICU? Um, like I always thought like, it's always been in the back of my mind, like people that are in the ICU, they gotta be different type of person.
The velocity is a huge factor, right?
Right through the top of her head? Yeah. Good Lord.
The bullet's also spinning, right?
From 100 yards away. Yeah, right.
you know brain damage I'm not sure the actual like degree of damage but the kid did live I had a guy in here who was I believe I always forget what I think it was with the Ranger regiment and he was in Libya I think it was
One of the bordering bordering countries of Israel, and they were training some people in that country and they were training these like, you know, this foreign military in like counterinsurgency and stuff like that. And they were doing a drill.
And one guy, one of the people from the group they were training did this stupid thing where he took his assault rifle and just started like sweeping the ground like that. And he should have been doing that. But one of the bullets went like astray as they all did. Most people hit the deck. He got a bullet right to the head, but he was wearing a helmet. Sure. So it fucking hit the helmet.
The helmet blew off and it shot him like six feet backwards and completely knocked him out.
and then he got admitted to the CIA's remote viewing program. But like he talks about how it like really changed him like that experience. Like he had some crazy dream. They said last thought he thought it was like lasted for days and he had dream a dream of like dying and coming back. And then when he finally got like woken up, they did all these psychiatric experiments on him. Wow. Yeah, man.
It's crazy. I mean, he's still he's still with it. He's still, you know, super sharp and with it. But it like made him more spiritual.
Right. For sure. But like a direct hit from a bullet from an assault rifle to the helmet.
No.
Maybe it did. Slightly? Maybe it slightly. I thought it did, but it didn't obviously hit his head. The bullet never hit his head. I think it might have pierced the helmet, but it... somehow blew the helmet off and like was a concussive hit to him and just knocked him back like six feet.
Has anyone ever survived a decapitation?
Have you heard of those people that are getting head transplants?
I thought that they did it.
Do you Google it? Head transplant? Oh, also known as a full body transplant. Okay. That's an experimental surgical procedure that involves, oh wait, we know what it is, but I thought, I thought it, so it hasn't been done successfully yet.
Steven, go back to the other tab, go to all. There you go. In 2016, Italian neuroscientist Dr. Sergio Canavero announced plans to perform the first head transplant in 2017. Valery Spiridonov, a 33-year-old Russian computer scientist with a muscle-wasting disease, volunteered to be the first recipient. The procedure called HEAVEN, or the head...
Anastomosis project would involve freezing Spiridov's head and grafting it onto the donor's body's spinal cord. However, Spiridov eventually backed out of the surgery citing the lack of funding from Russia.
So nobody's done it.
They die, so it would probably not work.
Right.
Have you ever... Has your dad ever dealt with people in the ICU who are transhumanists, who had that little dog tag to where when they die, they want their head to be frozen, cryogenically frozen?
There's a wild phenomenon where these people, either really rich people or people who can buy a million dollar insurance policy, life insurance policy, and they transfer it over to this company. They will remove your head from
from your body after you die and they will basically cryogenically freeze it and dehydrate it and preserve it for after the technological singularity when we're able to basically put your brain in a cyborg. Some people are actually freezing their entire bodies in hopes that they can bring their whole bodies back.
Right. Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully the grid doesn't go down in some sort of nuclear war because the people that own those places, when, when, when the grid goes down, I bet you the last thing they'd be worried about is powering their fucking facility that has all those brains in it.
Did it change him at all? Did he ever talk to you or ask him about that?
But yeah, but yeah, that's a, that's a wild phenomenon. You know, it's, I mean, I don't think it's that far out when we're going to be able to basically trans transmit or download our consciousness to like another body or like 3d print human organs or like have these organs or, or, or either that, or they're, they're working on creating like, like a microscopic, uh,
um electronic like micro computer particles that they'll be able to inject into your body that will be able to like regenerate things in your body interesting like targeting um this is what chip walter was telling us about they're going to be able to create like um microscopic little machines nano machines that can go into like your arteries repair damaged arteries basically like make them younger and flexible again or like
target cancers or different things um he thinks that is probably going to be like the lowest hanging fruit for um longevity and immortality essentially once we're once ai reaches a certain level yeah well i mean the thing i'm you know most hoping for i think that we are
Well, yeah. And it's also, I think it's, if you use stem cells from yourself or from like your kids, I guess they work like a hundred times better than using just random stem cells because they're already like pre-programmed to your DNA, right?
And it's not, it's not like, I don't think it's fully like approved to be used in the U.S.,
We went through that member, Steve won the last podcast. Yeah. He was saying that, that there's people that, that you can do it. If you have some sort of special exemption or like you have, you're like on your, you got one foot in the grave and the other banana peel and you're like about to die. They'll like give you an exemption where you can try stem cells, but normal people can't do it. Gotcha.
Like, I think it's the availability unless, unless maybe it's like something like a, like a rotator cuff tear. They'll let you do it. Hmm. But if it's like, can you find out what the legality is or what the restrictions are in getting stem cells in the U.S.?
And like umbilical cord blood and stuff like that.
Yeah. But the best way to do it is get it from your kids, especially if you have young kids. They can just pull they can just like sample the fat. Oh, wow. And then they can stick preserve that. I mean, if you don't have the like the placenta of like if you if you get your wife gives birth or a woman gives birth, you get the placenta. The placenta is a stem cell factory.
April 2024, FDA has only approved blood-forming stem cells from umbilical cord blood for use in patients with blood production disorders. The FDA also regulates stem cells from cord blood for unrelated allogenic use, required a license for a new review process to ensure purity and potency. However, the FDA has not approved any stem cell products for general use.
So stem cell treatments cannot legally be sold or marketed... to the public cannot legally be sold or marketed to the public. So treatments can't, right? But you can still like, you can still acquire stem cells from like your own wife's cord blood or like their placenta and use it for yourself. So you can't buy it or like buy the treatment, but you can store it, your own stem cells somehow.
But I guess they're saying that they can't market it or sell it to you.
Yeah, but you should be allowed to at least test it on yourself if you want to.
Yeah. Stem cell research is legal. The research is legal, but it faces specific restrictions and regulations. The controversy and regulations focus on embryonic stem cell research. Embryonic stem cell research is not illegal, but federal funding is prohibited if it involves creating or destroying embryos.
Research funding.
Yeah, man. There's one guy who Chip was talking about. He's some billionaire who started a stem cell company and they were doing like lots of, lots of, I guess he's been like funding lots of research with stem cells, but I don't know how he's skirting all this stuff.
No, no, not that guy. Different guy. Brandon something, whatever. Yeah, no, I don't know. I don't know much about that guy. I've heard about, I mean, I've seen him do podcasts before, but. Was it Hariri? Hariri, Bob Hariri. Yeah.
Cellularity.
You just passed it. It's the very top.
There you go. Yeah. Brain mapping foundation, society of brain mapping and therapeutics to celebrate this trailblazing scientist, surgeon, visionary leader and serial entrepreneur. Okay. Well, yeah, he's doing some self stuff.
Yeah, AI is going to be interesting how it affects all this stuff, man, how it's able to – especially if they can regrow organs or transplant your brain. People are going to start living a lot longer in the next 30 or 40 years.
And they're going to be outliving everybody, and eventually they're going to become aliens, and then they're going to terraform the Earth, survive all the nuclear wars. Let's hope not. Yeah, geez. Nuclear war. Nuclear war is another thing you make videos about, right? I saw you do some stuff on the demon core. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't that wild? Like the science behind a nuclear explosion.
That stuff's crazy, man. It's terrifying. I recently had this lady, Annie Jacobson, who wrote a book called Nuclear War, where she basically got access to all the documents, like the secret documents that were in the military where they did experiments with all these nukes when they were detonating them and testing them in like the 40s, the 30s and 40s and 50s, 60s.
And like how they did tests on soldiers, like young kids, they brought them out on boats and they would basically detonate nuclear bombs and make these kids and these soldiers stare at these bombs. And like, or sometimes in other cases, they'd make them turn around and like cover their eyes. Yeah. And these people were dying of all these crazy diseases. They like were infertile.
Like they couldn't reproduce, couldn't have babies. They had like severe brain damage. They were dying of cancer, leukemia and shit. Like it's, Oh yeah. It's insane how devastating that stuff is. And she got also got access to FEMA, FEMA's protocols. If there's a nuclear bomb that detonates on the continental United States, like it's, It specifically lays out like the mile radius of the fireball.
Oh, yes. Yeah. And like everything that's going to happen after 100 miles, after 500 miles, after a thousand miles. First of all, the nuke, the grid goes down. There's no grid. Absolutely. All cars stop working. Like, you think your gas car is still going to work when there's no grid? No, it's not going to work anymore.
Exactly. Yeah, the EMP. It's going to basically take out all the circuits. So if you don't have, like, one of those old school cars, like, that doesn't have an ignition to it, like, your car is not going to work anymore. Yeah.
I think the first computer was a vacuum tube computer.
Yeah. It was a guy that worked for DARPA. They were making the, um, the Iliac and the maniac computers.
I've got a, she wrote a great book on DARPA.
Yeah.
You see the tribe, the tribe in Africa, they just gave them internet. They gave, they hooked them up to Starlink and gave them like tablets and they're all addicted to porn now.
Yeah. Wow.
Cause it's like ruining their lives. Like it's, it's ruining their marriage, like their marriages. They're not, they're not going out and like finding food. They're not taking care of their families or just like sitting there and they're all addicted to, they're sitting there whacking off all day.
Yeah, dude.
Yeah. No, but like the – so going back to her book, she wrote a book about DARPA and like the creation of DARPA. And she was talking about the early scientists that were making the big computers that were called – one was called the Iliac. One was called the Maniac. And they were vacuum tube computers that were enormous. They were like triple the size of this room.
And one of the reasons – one of the utilities they were using this computer for, I believe the guy – The guy who made it, was it Herb York or was it, I forget the guy. No, it wasn't Herb York. It was somebody else. But you can probably find it, Steve.
He used the computer to calculate what elevation they needed to detonate the bombs over Hiroshima, Fat Man and Little Boy, and Nagasaki to cause the most civilian death casualties. Yep. So, these high-level scientists are using this technology to, and the means to the end is to figure out how to cause the most death.
Terrifying. Actually terrifying. Yeah.
There it is, the Iliac. Von Neumann, that's what it was. John von Neumann, that's who he was. Yeah, he built that computer.
Goodness gracious. Wow.
Yeah.
Isn't it crazy that all these geniuses and all these super smart people were getting paid all this money and making all these breakthroughs in science just for war, just to kill people on the other side of the earth?
Yeah. Operation Paperclip, that was huge. These guys, I don't think Norman, was Von Norman Paperclip? I don't think he was, was he? Um...
I think he was Jewish. He definitely wasn't a Nazi. Yeah, you want? Yeah, I think I'm getting some dry mouth. Go grab one.
No, no. It's great. It's like a stimulant. It's an Indonesian herb. It's actually an opioid. Oh, wow. It's not an opioid, but it affects the opioid receptor somehow. So if you take a lot of it, it has like an opioid effect. But if you drink one of these, it's like this super calm energy, like focused effect it gives you. Interesting. Not like jittery. Yeah. It's great.
And it's delicious. Interesting. What is a Bell Labs... What does it say? Immediately after the 1957 launch of Sputnik, the ILLIAC was used to calculate an ephemus of the satellite's orbit, later published in Nature.
Isn't it crazy that these fucking computers that were five tons and took so much money to create are now like you could fit probably the power and the efficiency of a hundred of those computers into your iPhone.
Yeah, that is fucking ridiculous, man.
Look up von Neumann. Find out where they... Find out if von Neumann was a paperclip scientist. I could be wrong.
In EU. There he is. John von Neumann. Is he the rocket? Mathematician. I don't think he was working on rockets. No. Don't type in paperclip. Just type in his name and find his Wikipedia.
Yeah. Von Neumann. Go to the top. Let's read the top. He was born in 1903, died in February 57, was a Hungarian and American mathematician, physicist, computer scientist, an engineer, and polymath. Yeah, he was a genius, dude. Sure. He was responsible for... Yeah, he worked on the Manhattan Project. That's right.
I think there is... And he created the... He was responsible for those lenses they use to watch the nukes go off. Oh wow. Yeah. He was responsible for creating those.
Did that just say he was an expert in ancient Greek? Wow.
I saw it before you changed it. All right.
You wrote Greek.
Greek.
Von Neumann was a child prodigy who, at six years old, could divide two eight-digit numbers in his head and converse in ancient Greek. How nuts is that?
Okay. Yeah, paperclip. Paperclip was scary, man.
Remind me what that is.
Yes.
Yeah, the thing about your videos that is so compelling to me is the topics that you choose are like the... They're like, and I'm not saying this in a bad way, but they're like the most obvious things that I'm curious about. Like when I'm scrolling through your videos, it's like, yes, I've always wondered about this, but I've never thought to ask.
They were doing the surgical experiments on people.
Really?
There was also a Nazi named Miguel. I forget his first name, but his last name was Miguel. He was the Nazi that was famous for doing surgical experiments on people, mainly children.
Mengele.
Oh, you wrote about Mengele on the notes? Oh, yeah.
Yeah, just like Hitler, right? Yeah. There's a theory that thinks Hitler escaped. I mean, we know a lot of them escaped to Argentina. Yeah.
Oh, really?
Right, right. But they never showed it. They just said it, from what I understand.
Right. Yeah, Mengele, so... They were doing human experiments. So there's a theory out there. Well, it's not a theory. It's going back to this lady, Annie, again. Another one of her books called Area 51. She writes about the Roswell crash, the flying saucer that crashed in Roswell. Yeah. And I want to say it was like 47, maybe? Late 47? July of 47, I believe it was. I could be wrong.
She interviewed a guy who worked for... He was an engineer working for some covert American Cold War organization doing experiments and testing anti-gravity and doing all kinds of crazy experiments on shit. And he was a part of... He knew all about the Roswell investigation and what it was all about. And he told Annie...
under anonymity for her book that the flying saucer that crashed was a world war two engineered machine that was created by the Wright brothers. And the, the two aliens that were in there were not aliens. They were, uh, children that were surgically deformed and altered by Mengele sent over by Stalin to crash land here. They were like drone piloted by Stalin with these kids in there.
And they were crashed here purposely to like create some sort of chaos in the U S and to so panic, you know, like panic across the nation that there's like, there's an alien invasion or whatever. And she asked him to, She goes, well, if this is true, why would they hide this? Because if you just told the public the Russians did this horrific shit, it would just make the Russians look bad, not us.
And his answer was because as soon as we found that, we started doing the same exact thing.
I mean, that's not many people have this guy left field for me. Well, there was also in the 70s and 80s, there was experiments done on the East Coast. There was a school for like children with Down syndrome, I believe, or like. children with cognitive disabilities where they were doing experiments on them. And I think Bill Clinton eventually shut it down in the early nineties.
And I've never seen anyone explain it because it seems like such an obvious question, right? Sure, sure. And that's beautiful about it. Oh, thank you. And the way you do them also is so... you make it so easy to comprehend and they're not super long and complicated.
Can you find that Steve? Yeah. What, what? Okay. So Clinton type in Clinton and then type in disabled children with experiments.
On the East coast of the U S I think, I want to say it was in New Jersey.
Keep going. No, that's not it. It's not meeting them. This is a fucking way more sinister than that.
Human radiation experiments. Is that it? That might be it. Click on it.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was cold war shit. Uh, where the fuck's the article? Oh, why would you pay wall?
Okay. Okay. President Bill Clinton commented on the final report on human radiation experiments conducted by the federal government between 1944, 1974, uh, The government failed in his duty to tell the truth and protect citizens. The president promised compensation for the victims of these experiments.
He also offered a formal apology to the survivors, their families, and to all American people who must be able to rely on the United States to keep its word, tell the truth, and do the right thing. As an additional measure, President Clinton signed an executive order instructing every agency of the federal government which conducts, supports, or regulates research involving human beings
to immediately review their procedures and report back by the end of the year. The president also created the Bioethics Advisory Commission to supervise such research. He hopes the commission will ensure the government never again strays from basic values of protecting and being truthful to its people. They were doing fucking radiation experiments on kids, dude.
Yeah, the nuclear soldiers and the nuclear veterans.
It was definitely a school for kids or some sort of place for children on the east coast of the U.S. for disabled children. I think it might have been radiation experiments or other types of experiments. Yeah.
And I come away with a perfect, you know, understanding of what's going on and what happens after every, after every video that I watch. So you do a great job with that, man.
but yeah, this was going on like, like, like during the time bell labs was big, you know, like during the, when bell labs and up in Montauk, um, this was around that time, uh, at, what is this? Massachusetts at a Fernald, Fernald school in Massachusetts, a school for disabled and special needs children.
Students were exposed to radioactive iron and calcium in the late forties and fifties in a federally sponsored study.
Nuclear museum. Click on it. Yeah. I think this was, yeah, this is what Clinton shut down.
Yeah, human experimentation throughout the Cold War. Dude, they did a lot of fucked up shit in the Cold War, dude. Gosh, the dark ages. Their parents were not informed of the full nature of the experiments. Between 53 and 57, Oak Ridge National Laboratory conducted uranium injection experiments on 11 patients in Massachusetts General Hospital as part of their continued health physics research.
They discovered uranium localized in human kidneys at a much higher rate than previously thought, and therefore that maximum permissible levels were too high. Despite the efforts of this experiment, however, occupational standards for uranium did not change at any national laboratories. Keep going down.
Yeah. I mean, the government.
But there it is about Bill Clinton in the early 90s. Uncover the nature of the Albuquerque Tribune. Uncover the nature of these human experiments. Identify the patients. That's when Clinton shut it down.
Yeah, Tuskegee, dude. That's fucking horrific.
What's Love Canal?
Right.
Well, DuPont did that too. There's a whole documentary about how DuPont contaminated a lot of the runoff from their nylon products. Really? The nonstick pans and the chemical they were using to create- Teflon. Teflon.
The nonstick pans. They were draining all of their waste and their byproducts into the rivers. And it was killing all the cattle. Like the first people to notice it were the farmers. They were saying their cattle was fucking dying. And then people were getting sick. Like there was tons of people that worked in DuPont that were getting cancer. The kids were being born deformed and shit.
And there was a huge study. There's a documentary. Find out what the name of that documentary is called. Just call it the DuPont documentary about chemicals. The devil we know. That's what it is, dude.
Sinister. Just the amount of chemical byproducts that are, I mean, even today that are still in the foods, you know, like just, I had this other lady on here, Dr. Shauna Swan, who wrote a book all about the decline of sperm count and testosterone in males over the last 60 years. I think they started doing it in early 70 years. I think they started in like the 50s.
And, um, due to like glyphosate and like monocrop agriculture and how they're using all these pesticides to basically like kill all the bugs on these crops and stuff. And, and all of our foods are covered in this stuff. Um, that combined with the microplastics, like everything's in plastic.
Our sperm count has been going down, I think it was 1% per year since the 50s. And I think since 2000, it's been going down 2% per year. Jeez.
Well, it's definitely what she lays out in her book, how it is like very, very clear that it is creating a huge drop in male fertility. And that's why, you know, the birth rate around the world is plummeting. You know, people can't have kids like they used to. And there's another crazy study. It's a part of it where they, she found a way to measure, um,
how much people were exposed to these phthalates and these microplastics during the gestation period and before these kids are born. After they're born, they did a study where they measured what's called the AGD, which is basically the gooch. It's the distance between your asshole and your ball sack.
So the shorter that distance is, the more you were exposed to these phthalates and these microplastics and the more and more of it that you have in your blood.
And that it's like and that's directly correlated to your sperm count and your testosterone level.
Yeah. Yeah.
And one of the best ways you can avoid microplastics.
microplastics from the apart from the obviously drinking out of like bottled waters and like using them for all your food and all that stuff is uh taking your shoes off outside not bringing your shoes inside because your shoes when you're walking around in the street or anywhere out in the public and you bring them in your house they bring in a ton of microplastics going to what you said a lot of it comes through and through inhalation yeah so that's that's important make sure you leave your shoes outside folks
Not bottled water?
Of course.
Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. That's insane, man.
Good luck with that. Technology is just killing us. It's a trade-off.
Do you think there's any way that we'll be able to reverse all this shit?
What is the, out of curiosity, what is the craziest thing that your dad or you saw ever in the ICU experience?
Yeah, you would think that we'd be able to, with AI, create some sort of antidote to some of this shit. I mean, with AI, like... Because, like, it's an industry that's fueled by billions of dollars. So it's going to be like, you can't just fucking stop it. That's easier said than done. So, like, maybe you can put money into... That lightning's crazy. Yeah, it is.
Maybe you can put some money into some sort of economic push behind creating an antidote or some sort of cure to it somehow or some sort of experimental medicine. I know it sounds so far-fetched, like how the fuck are you going to create something that's going to take microplastics out of your blood and your cells, right? Mm-hmm.
It's interesting to think about what the evolution of drugs is going to be over the next 50 years.
Because it's pretty wild to think about. I mean, even like the drugs we have now, like I had no idea that there was a drug you could take that would stop you from being killed from cyanide. Like there's an antidote you can take that basically will stop cyanide from killing you.
I didn't even know that existed.
So imagine if there was a drug that could like, if you had leukemia, there's a drug you can take to counteract or fucking be an antidote to leukemia.
Yeah.
You don't target it very well, though.
You're basically blasting your body with nuclear radiation.
Not really nuclear, but it's like you're basically nuking yourself. I mean, you're killing all the other surrounding tissue.
I mean, it's, it's, it's very, it's very primitive considering where we're at. I would say so. Yeah. Considering all the other technology we have, it seems super primitive. Like how have we not been able to innovate beyond chemotherapy? When did chemotherapy first come about? You know, was it the fifties?
We can censor it if it's not too friendly.
Can you Google that, Steve? I heard that that was like a new experimental thing that they were doing with leukemia that where you can do this thing called CAR-T therapy. CAR-T cell therapy. That's what it is. Yeah.
You'll find it. CAR-T cell therapy or CAR-T is a type of immunotherapy that uses a patient's T cells to treat cancer. T cells are a type of immune system cell that are collected from a patient's blood and then genetically altered in a lab to produce chimeric antigen receptors, CARs.
Yeah.
On their surface, CARs are special receptors that bind to specific proteins on the surface of cancer cells, allowing the T cells to more effectively locate and destroy them. They're grown in a lab and given to the patient through an infusion. It's FDA approved to treat several types of blood cancers, including leukemia, lymphoma, and multiple myeloma.
That seems pretty innovative, and I think that's kind of new. Since the early 2000s, or 2022, rather, this came from.
tools to better treat cancer so they're taking okay they're taking a t so a t cell is an immune system cell right so they're taking these t cells that are already reacting and i don't know if you know how much you know about this but i don't know anything about it they're taking these cells that that are building up in your body a immune response to the cancer you have extracting them doing something to them in a lab and then injecting them back in you yeah is that right
I think so.
This says they're grown in a lab and then given to the patients through infusion.
Um, they were, they were doing some sort of therapy where it was like, it was like an antibody therapy that they would give you a shot of, um, I forget what it was called. But like a lot of people were shitting on it, but they were doing it in Florida and apparently it was working really well. I never got it, but I heard it was good.
Right.
Uh-huh. What a wild, what a wild ride that was going through the COVID thing. COVID sucked. Frickin' Biden's got it now. Yeah. See that? Biden has... He just got COVID. He's had like four vaccines. How is he in COVID? He's been like triple boosted.
Really?
Did you see the recording they released of Fauci having that phone call with that guy?
I don't know all of it, but I know there were some issues that he said about like... I forget exactly what it was, but he basically, when he was testifying, they played a... They played a phone call of him talking to somebody. I forget who it was, but he's basically saying that, like, we're going to make all the schools and all the employers say you got to have it or you're fired.
And he's like, if they don't want to do it, fuck them. And people now are winning lawsuits on being fired, you know? Yeah, dude. I mean, look, you got to be skeptical about taking any sort of drug or anything when the company that's making it is federally immune to lawsuits. Right. That's a red flag. Yes.
And it's like, and the fucking totalitarian lockdowns and make forcing you to get it or not go to school. You're going to kick out of school. You're going to lose your job. I mean, people are winning lawsuits on that. Yeah, that's good. That's, that's good. I didn't know about that, but yeah, But yeah, man, some of that shit that came out about Fauci, dude, is just fucking pure evil. Pure evil.
And that combined with money. It's the money and the power, right?
And, and these pharmaceutical companies, if you look at like the history of American corporations and like the amount of, uh, fines and the amount of like civil, uh, uh, what's the word we need to pay them? Like the, um,
Like a civil lawsuit, but when they have to pay the person who sues them. Damages, right? Yeah, like the amount of damages paid by corporations, like the top 10 or 20 companies or pharmaceutical companies that paid out like billions of dollars in damages from lawsuits.
Right. So now we're going to create one in a couple months and we're going to be completely immune to any sort of lawsuits or legal action.
That's not good news, dude. That's fucking get me the fuck out of here. Yeah. Yeah. I almost got the vaccine because what I was, I was getting ready to travel out of the country and the country we were traveling to had a, if I want, when I wanted to go home, I wouldn't have been able to come home if I wasn't vaccinated.
No, I didn't do it. Last minute we canceled the trip. I almost did it. I was like, I was literally fucking about to go to the CVS and get the shot, but I didn't for whatever reason. But in hindsight, I'm kind of glad I didn't.
Right. That's, that's tough, dude.
Oh, here's the video of Fauci. You found it? Beautiful.
We're going to have to, hopefully we don't get demonetized for this, but we'll do it anyways. Not demonetized, but hopefully we don't get like a copyright strike.
All right.
Jeez. Is he not the fucking devil, dude? Good Lord.
Yeah, yeah, I know, yeah. No, I mean, he literally admits it was a real phone call during this testimony. No, I'm just saying that it would say, oh, it's a deep fake. The haters are going to say it was a deep fake. Right, right, right. Yeah. Gosh.
I don't know like what the, what the latest is on him, but he should be put in fucking jail. Something. They should make an example of him so that people don't fucking do that shit in the future.
That just pisses me off, dude.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's been working in that position since what? Since like the 80s? The 80s during the AIDS crisis. During the AIDS. Yes. Yes. That's when he started during the AIDS crisis. You're right.
Yeah. Right. Even though all the media in the beginning said that there's no chance it came from China. Now CNN literally came out and said it probably, or no, it was the New York times. It probably came from China was the headline.
Oh my God, dude, that bit was incredible. What did we do that on Colbert show? I think it was. I think he did. Yeah.
If there's an outbreak of chocolatey goodness in Pittsburgh, wherever the Hershey's factory was.
Not a chance. Not a chance.
Did you see like some of the people were getting locked inside their apartments and they had like loudspeakers that were talking in Chinese and like the fucking roads were empty. And there was like these crazy doomsday sirens going cars like police cars going up and down the street, making sure nobody was on the streets. It was like something out of a fucking horror movie in China.
I mean, they paid dearly for that, dude. Especially like what happened with the shipping crisis, like with the distribution of shit coming from China, like all the shipping lanes got stopped. Yeah, man, that was not good for China at all. And that, I mean, like...
The fact that we, the fact that Fauci put these fucking gain of function labs, I mean, I guess it's better than it being here, but like they put it in China to evade some sort of regulations that I think Obama put in place because Obama didn't want the gain of function shit going on in North Carolina where it originated.
I didn't know that. So they moved it to Wuhan and then it got brought, I mean, then it went, you know, went throughout the globe. But like the fact that we're, that we're just like, The human... I don't know if it's a human thing. It must be. I mean, it's definitely a human thing. But we're in this crazy competition of nation states to see who can fucking destroy each other better.
And billions of dollars is going into creating fucking super viruses that can kill people more effectively.
and it was for war yeah it was of course it was for war dude i mean like that's like going back to von neumann the most money goes into fucking figuring out how to kill people going back to that computer that figured out what what uh elevation should we detonate the bombs above hiroshima to kill most the most people it's just like if you zoom out on all this stuff on history it's just like
Crazy times, man.
It's amazing another nuke hasn't gone off since the 40s, since whatever it was, 45. I think the latest was the late 50s.
Yeah, the testing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They know. Well, that's the crazy thing about Annie's book, the nuclear war book, dude. She explains, so she like interviewed all these top level generals who basically they did thousands of nuclear war games, simulations, right, in the Pentagon, like playing out what would happen. And-
The book explains a very real scenario that how it would happen if North Korea launched an ICBM towards the U.S. So we have like six minutes from launch to impact. So imagine if they were shooting one from North Korea, they would shoot it over the North Pole and it would go over the top of the earth and it would hit if they were targeting the U.S. That's how they would do it.
And they would essentially target – the first bomb would hit D.C. And so we have six minutes, right? And typically the presidents don't go through – they don't think this through when they're in office, right? There's way more things they're worried about. They're not like typically rehearsing nuclear war scenarios.
That was mainly done like in the past by previous people in the Pentagon and generals and stuff like that. There's a whole base in – I think it's Montana, right? where the command and control center is. Yeah. It's in the Rocky Mountains. Or no, it's Colorado. It's in the Rocky Mountains. It's hidden in like a granite mountain. Yep. Yep.
And so they literally have six minutes to make a decision what to do. But if they'll know within like... I think a minute and a half or maybe even like two minutes, they'll know that that bomb is targeting the U.S. Like they'll know, they'll be able to figure out a trajectory based on all of our reconnaissance satellites that we have in space and like airplanes and stuff like that.
They can figure out from its boost phase where it's going. So they're going to know it's hitting the U.S. So the first thing, this is a protocol that is written in stone. That as soon as an ICBM is launched from any country and headed towards us, in the first 60 seconds, we have to empty our Minutemen arsenals. All of our ICBMs that are basically in these ground bases. Yeah.
Yeah, I've always been curious, like when people are about to die or when they have some sort of chronic disease or they're dying of cancer. how their psychological mindset affects that. Like with some people give up and some people keep fighting psychologically, mentally, they are resilient. And I'm like wondering how much of an effect the brain can have on the body in that regard.
I think they're mostly in the Midwest area. Okay.
like montana and those areas those have to be launched because those are going to be we have to assume those are going to be the first target of a of a strike towards us they're going to try to hit our sites so those uh minutemen rockets are rendered useless yeah so it's use or lose it for those right gotcha so as soon as one launches from another country ours have to launch just based on like
Right. So potentially if they, if they launch a nuke and, and we don't launch ours, say like, we're going to try to evade a nuclear war. We're going to maybe let one hit, or we're just going to hope it doesn't hit us. We can't do that. We have to empty ours and we have to target them with them. Gotcha. So here's the problem. Now, once we have fucking 10 or 20 ICBMs, I don't know how many we have.
Maybe you can find out how many ICBMs we have, how many minute men we have. Minutemen, ICBMs, how many in the U.S.? They all have to be launched. The problem is, okay, now we launched ours toward North Korea. They're going over the North Pole, right? And they're going to have to overfly Russia to get to North Korea.
Now, within two minutes, you're going to think, we have to get on the phone with Russia and let them know this isn't coming for you. This is going for North Korea. Well, I don't think there's ever been a time in history where we were able to get Putin on the phone that quick.
All right, Adam. Thanks for coming on the podcast, dude. Thanks for having me. We were just talking off camera. You were saying your dad's the one who kind of got you into creating all these videos on death and how people die and all these terrifying things.
I think like the last time that we tried to get a hold of Putin, it took like a week for him to get back to us. Oh, my God. At least the president. So Russia is going to see it. Now they're going to launch all their ICBMs. And before you know it, it's all and the NATO is going to start launching all their rockets and stuff. Then before you know, it's all out nuclear war.
Just because of like the sheer time and the communication. Yeah. So it's just a it's just a huge fucking breakdown of communication that happens because there's all these policies in place to launch ICBMs. So the once the first fucking missile flies, dude, it's over. Endgame.
So imagine this. Kim Jong-un has a bad day, decides to launch one ICBM. That means – and if it's come towards the U.S., we're launching 400. So we have to hope to God that Russia and all these other countries don't launch a counterstrike when they see these.
They have 50 total. Their submarines are still diesel-powered. Ours are nuclear-powered, so ours can go forever. They still have to refuel with diesel. I think they can go like a week or something.
Yeah, their subs are shitty.
Have you seen the, uh, the graphic or like the animation of all the nuclear bomb tests that have gone on throughout the world? I think I have. Yes. Fucking amazing. It shows like the time, the timeline. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And then it gets into like the cold war air and it's like all over the fucking world.
And then like, you know, most people think they have this misconception that we have sort of like an iron dome of systems that can basically intercept rockets out of the sky, right? It's like essentially, this is the video. Look, 1945, yeah, Trinity, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Then you had the test over in the atolls. Where they tested the first thermonuclear bombs. Then you have Russia.
Look at this. Boom, boom, boom. Look at all those ones in Nevada.
I didn't know that. Look at fucking Nevada.
Yeah, now we're in 66. Now it's going crazy. Look, the U.S. is at 600. 600.
Yeah. Isn't it funny? Isn't that just hilarious that all those bombs went off in Nevada and that happens to be the place we like to go to gamble?
87, 88.
They're still going off, bro.
Yeah, what is that? It's not Mexico, right?
Clear bomb. Bro, I'd be surprised if those cartels got their hands on nukes pretty soon. Screw that. They're getting all kinds of crazy technology, bro. They're stealing technology from, they somehow got technology from Israel. Some sort of like crazy spyware technology that was supposed to be used by the military in Mexico. But now the military is so corrupt, they're selling it to the cartels.
This guy came on the podcast that reports on the cartels, and they got a hold of this shit. You can basically type in somebody's phone number, track where they are live, read all their communications on their phone, and now the cartel is using this to track their fucking enemies. Gotcha. It's India. Niger?
Oh, India. Okay.
But yeah, what I was saying about the misconception that we have some sort of interceptor system that can intercept these nukes. Annie was explaining that we have like a total of 44 of these interceptor missiles. And there's like 40 of them that are based in Alaska. And there's 40 of them that are based in California.
And the accuracy or the percentage accuracy of these things being able to hit a target is like 40% maybe.
So we have 44 with 40% accuracy, right? Yeah. If there's a nuclear war, they send all the fucking rockets, right? Russia's got like over a thousand. We have over a thousand. All these other countries, North Korea, I think North Korea has like a couple hundred maybe. But it's fucking, there's no chance that's going to save us. No chance at all.
Nukes? Yeah. Well, they did a lot of underground nuclear testing for sure.
And then she explains like the nuclear winter, how like basically it will block out the sun for years and years and years. Agriculture will cease to exist. People will have to live underground because it'll be so toxic. The atmosphere will be so toxic. You'll be able to survive. So people go underground. A lot of, most people will die.
And then eventually after like 12 years or something like that, it's supposed to, the sky was supposed to clear up again and the sun will come through. But by that point, The atmosphere will be so degraded that the sun, the radiation from the sun will literally kill you.
Yeah. Jeez. So at that point, all the fucking frozen dead bodies and the frozen dead animals around the globe will start to thaw out. Yeah. Right. And then like then disease will be like just plague after that.
Done. I mean, the only thing that will survive are the people – well, initially, the people in the nuclear subs will survive until they run out of food and water.
A couple years. Yeah. The subs can pretty much go forever on nuclear power. And then like, you know, hunter gatherers might survive. People like remote tribes in the Amazon maybe or like some of those, you know, uncontacted tribes that are out in those islands out near like Asia Pacific. And then like animals that are underwater, like, you know, sharks and sharks and alligators survived. Sure.
You know, deep water species, but like.
Yeah, right. Jeez. But, you know, we're going to have to figure out a way to get off this fucking planet if we're going to survive. I mean, to even save our technology, like, save, like, humanity. Like, even if humans don't survive, to, like, save a copy of us, we need to put a hard drive on the moon or something.
Or underwater, you know? Like, underwater would be the best. Like, if you could somehow... I think it's, like... what is it? 90% of our oceans haven't been even been explored yet.
The ocean's more unexplored than the moon.
Well, if we could figure out how to 3D print meat or steak. There was some shit that came out recently that we were trying to print steak or grow steaks in a lab or something. Yeah. Somehow do that. I don't know if you've heard about that.
Yeah.
yeah there was a report that came out from nasa a couple days ago steve if you could find it they found like some crazy cave like caverns like underground caves that were on the moon from like water they don't i don't think they know what it was from nasa cave moon yeah look new evidence adds findings hinting at a network of caves there's theories out there that the moon is hollow
But there's people that also think that the inside of the moon is like the very center of it is a solid core, but then it's honeycombed. Like the inside of it's like honeycombed.
Something like that, yeah. Wow. Yeah, how fucking wild is that, dude?
Who knows? How weird is it that we haven't gone back to the moon since fucking 1970? Yeah, I know, right?
Did you see that there was something like some sort of Senate hearing with the head of NASA? And the head of NASA was basically saying – we talked about this in the podcast a few weeks ago. He was saying that – The Chinese are trying to they're sending satellites to the backside of the moon.
He thinks that the China is trying to set up bases on the dark side of the moon or the backside of the moon.
Interesting. But he's like, yeah, we, I think the guy was saying like, we don't have any incentives. We don't want to do it, but we're going to let China do it. I find that kind of to be kind of odd.
Right. That's what I thought.
Mm hmm. Or if you if you want to like explore places like Mars or do shit on Mars, like when the moon be a good like place to start.
Like a like a good mediary spot to maybe maybe I don't know if you could launch rockets from the moon, but it seems to be like more plausible to launch it from the moon than from Earth. If you could have some sort of like rocket base on the moon.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, man. It's wild. I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens in our lives when it comes to around, I think Ray Kurzweil saying the 2030s, 2040s, that AI is really going to change the game for a lot of stuff. Sure it will. Especially not only this kind of stuff, but longevity and diseases and making people immortal.
Did you listen to Terrence Howard's podcast they did on Rogan? Yeah. What did you think of it?
Did you listen to when Weinstein went on there with him?
Yeah, for sure. Are you a hypochondriac?
Right.
He was saying some shit that made sense, though. Like, apparently they recreated some sort of... Something with Saturn. And they somehow... Yeah, it's this hexagon. Oh, it's a hexagon. That's what it was.
So essentially he was saying that planets were created in the sun, like the sun burps out these planets, right? And then they're slowly moving away and away. And the Goldilocks zone that Earth is in right now, in like a million years or whatever, or a couple million years, was it Mars will be in the Goldilocks zone? Mars is closer or farther from the sun? Farther. It's farther from the sun.
It's the fourth planet, yeah. What's the next one closest to the sun?
Okay, so Venus. So like in a couple of millions, I guess if it's expanding, then Venus will be the next one in the Goldilocks zone and Earth will be out farther, like maybe where Mars is now. And everything's like expanding because it comes out. The sun creates the planets. That kind of made sense.
Right.
Do you know why we can't see stars when we're in outer when they're in outer space? Like even on the moon like the ed mitchell described that when you look at all dark You can't it's everything's dark. The sky is dark.
Really?
So, like, if the door got open on the space station, everyone inside would just explode?
So it would be a pretty quick and painless death.
Oh, shit, dude. That's fucking freaky, man.
you know, like the, like those guys, those guys that went down and explored the, the Titanic and that little sub submarine a couple months ago, the thing just exploded. They had like, um, the simulated on YouTube. I'm sure you saw the simulated animation boom of like how the thing imploded. And they're just like, those people just like disintegrated instantly.
Yes. So you're just like, you're there and then you're not. It happens before. Yeah. It happened faster than they could have perceived pain. It's just like lights out.
So no, I used to have those same similar thoughts when I was a kid about death. I remember specifically one of my most terrifying thoughts that still I can like recollect vividly today. Um, When I was really young, I would have these thoughts pop into my head of what it was like.
Yeah. But it's cool that he went on there and was able to talk about it and get people – it got people talking, that's for sure.
Absolutely.
Right.
Yeah, dude. I don't understand it. Yeah. Wild. It is interesting. Well, Adam, thank you so much for doing this, man. This was fun.
Yeah, I appreciate it, dude. Tell people that are listening and watching where they can find your YouTube channel and all the stuff you're doing. You got just one channel or you got multiple or what?
Yeah. That's amazing, dude. Your videos are incredible. Thank you. Like I said before, you are somehow able to pick the most obvious things that people don't normally think about and you do the craziest fucking deconstruction of them.
Is that like the death, the death gurgle type thing? Basically.
Right.
I don't remember if this came after my grandpa died or something, but I remember vividly when my first thoughts about death was like, you close your eyes and it's just black. It's just black forever. That was the most terrifying thing.
And then another one of your videos that you did, we'll talk about briefly the anatomy of a decapitation or like how a decapitation actually works. Isn't it true that like there's been reports that after people get decapitated, they're like, they're kind of still alive in their head, still conscious.
It's hard to do a study on that, right?
Right, because blood's gone, right?
Terrifyingly interesting shit, man.
Yeah. Thanks for making this stuff. And for everyone that's watching, listening, it'll obviously be linked below to check it out. And any like social media stuff like Twitter, Instagram.
Cool.
Yeah, man. Thanks a lot. I really enjoyed this. Thank you much. Oh, yeah. We did a Patreon before we started. We did a Patreon Q&A with Adam where we talked for like, I don't know, like 20, 30 minutes about some, we had people answer questions or he answered questions for some of the Patreons. So if you guys want to check that out, that's also linked below. Good night, world.
You just cease to exist. You're just, you're just dirt, inanimate dirt. And there's nothing, there's nothing, just infinite darkness.
That's a terrifying thing. Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I think there's, I think it's like statistically proven, right? That most people, when they reach a certain age, like forties or fifties or sixties, they start to become way more religious and accept God. And yeah, I think so.
There's not many like teenagers at church, right? Unless their parents are dragging them there. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
yeah so last night i told you i was fucking going down a never-ending rabbit hole on fluoride yeah because you had a couple videos on fluoride and uh you did like a deep deep dive on like the truth of it because there's like a huge i don't know if it's a misconception but there's a lot of confusion out there about fluoride and from my understanding of it i mean correct me if i'm wrong about this but there was like in the 30s or 40s
some dentist got some sort of grant or got something passed into law where they could put fluoride in the water because this guy thought it would help tooth decay. And like specifically in Colorado, I think it was. And then they're like, okay, we're going to make this a mandate for the rest of the country.
We're going to put fluoride in everyone's drinking water and try to save the country from cavities. And, but there's been studies on floor that it's, is it true that it's neurotoxic?
Shop now to elevate your wardrobe today. It's linked below. Now back to the show.
I bet it had to be fascinating.
Yes. When I first learned about this stuff, I was like, this is bullshit. This is complete horseshit. There's no way this is real. These are... people out there that have just gone too far, read too many science fiction books until I realized about the program that was quite literally funded by the US military to do this stuff.
And if the US military and the CIA is willing to spend millions of dollars on this stuff, like David Morehouse explained, there's got to be something to it.
And the way he put it is, um, I think it was the way one of the, um, one of the generals explained to him or somebody in the intelligence agency explained to him, he goes, if there's a 1% chance that this works 1% of the time, it's worth a lot of money, especially during the cold war. So, um, And I've talked to, I don't know if you're familiar with Jack Sarfati.
Oh, really? He's a character. He's a funny guy. I love Jack. Yeah, we went and talked to him in San Francisco, and he was explaining the background with the SRI, the Stanford thing that was going on back then.
Oh, really? Yeah. What did he say about it?
Okay. Anytime I try to ask him something, he just calls me an idiot.
He's a national treasure, that guy. Well, he's very arrogant. A touch of arrogance. But he's great. From Brooklyn. You know, it comes with it. It comes with the territory. His story. You believe his story? Yeah. His story about when he was a kid, when he got the phone call?
Yeah. So apparently he got a phone call for people that aren't familiar. He got a phone call when he was like, I forget how old, 12 years old, something like that. Sorry, Jack, I'm f***ing this up. And it was some sort of being explaining to him. Do you remember what it was?
Oh, that's what it was.
Yeah. Hell of a story. It is. Hell of a story. And it's, you know, if there's anything to it, it explains his attitude towards all this stuff, you know?
Hmm. How so? What do you mean by that?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. He figured out warp drive.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just interesting that there was all that money going into him, Hal Puthoff, and those guys at Stanford back in the day to do this stuff, this remote viewing stuff and this magic stuff with Uri Geller. Well, Sir Foddy didn't get any of that money. No, no, but he was there with them, wasn't he? Well, very much on the periphery. Yeah, he was on the periphery.
Right, right, right. He's not going to like this. Sorry, Jack. I love you, Jack. Have you read, have you heard of Annie Jacobson? Yes. She wrote that book called The Phenomena. Yes. Fascinating book. And it starts out explaining the story of Uri Geller. And who was the guy who discovered Uri Geller? Andrea Puharich. Andrea Puharich, yeah. Right. Yeah.
A shared death experience?
Did you, you wrote about Puharik quite a bit, right? Yes, I knew him. For people that don't understand, can you explain who he was? Oh, you knew him personally? Oh, sure.
Really? Yes. You've seen him do it? Yes. Like picking up a random spoon, you've seen him pick it up and bend it? Well. Because David Morehouse was telling me he saw him do it at a restaurant. Yeah. Like walked up to someone he didn't know, picked up their spoon and held it and like.
25.
Something Annie was explaining in her book, The Phenomena, where there was this new part of physics that Puharik was looking into. I forget the word. It was some crazy scientific word. But essentially, what they found out was – Um, there was a guy by the name of, I want to say his last name was Baker who worked for the CIA and he was the polygraph specialist.
And one day I guess he was sitting in the, in the agency board and he said, looking at a plant, he was, I'm going to hook up this polygraph to the plant. Cleve Baxter. Cleve Baxter. Yes. Yes. You're an encyclopedia on this shit, man. So Cleve Baxter said, I'm going to light this plant on fire and see what happens to the polygraph.
And as he struck the match onto the match box, right when he lit the match, the polygraph went off the charts before he even touched it to the plant, which is crazy. And then I guess he went on to cut a plant into multiple pieces, put it in different areas and see if somehow do tests to see if there was any connection between them. Are you familiar with this stuff?
Oh, really? Yeah.
So how long did it take you to get your degree in parapsychology? Yes.
And did you just choose what to study and like what to read or how did you go about doing it?
And did you ever get contacted by the government, the military, the CIA, anything like that to work on any of these special projects? No. No. Why not?
Really? Yeah. So Hal Puthoff and these guys were straight up not touching any of that stuff? I think so.
I heard Hal Puthoff used to be a Scientologist.
That's interesting.
You know, he was the most prolific science fiction writer of all time. I think he wrote more science fiction than anyone. Like he's published more science fiction works, I think, than anyone in history, as far as I'm aware. And it's just the, you know, the... The way that thing is structured, and there's so many horror stories of Scientology of people being kept as slaves.
And I actually interviewed the father of David Miscavige on the show years ago. and he was telling some, some terrifying stories of what he had to go through like that. Uh, when he was in Clearwater, this is like 10 minutes away from where we're sitting right now is the, is the flag, the head of Scientology where Eleanor on Hubbard used to, where he parked a ship.
Um, and, his dad was explaining how, you know, they kept him there and he had to like escape. Like he like planned out this crazy dramatic escape, how he, you know, had to get out and he was chased by security. And, um, there was a moment where he was being spied on by David Miscavige's people. And he knew they were following him everywhere.
And there was a point where he was at the grocery store and he had a literal heart attack at the grocery store. And he knew that those guys were there and they could have helped him. So he was like waving for them to help them because they knew that they were hired by his son to spy on him. And they just left and didn't do anything.
And they were like, apparently like David wanted his dad to just die. That's very sad. It's very sad. It's so interesting that all these guys were so into it.
Okay. And that was the name of the book that he published, right? Yes. Right.
Yeah, I've heard there's a lot to take from it, right? There's a lot of good stuff. There's a lot of good stuff in the book, like eliminating all the negative influences in your life, Focusing on – and all the richest people in this town are Scientologists. Not all the richest people, but let me put it differently. Most of the Scientologists are very wealthy folks around here.
And I don't know what that is. I mean, is there – there's definitely something to it that's really beneficial for people before – Maybe before you start getting into the guy, the Xenu galactic overlord that came out of a volcano.
Like the, what was the cult where they all wore the Michael Jordan sneakers and then they all did, they committed suicide in California.
They thought they were going to like beam up to a spaceship. Yes. Because there was a Hale-Bopp comet, right? Right.
Yeah, yeah. They thought they were all going to like go up to a, get like beamed up to a spaceship after they killed themselves. Heaven's Gate. Heaven's Gate. That's what it was.
Which one is that?
Yeah. And, you know, we think they're all crazy, you know, but maybe they did get beamed up to a spaceship and maybe they're the ones that are laughing. I think, you know, look, these guys don't they think we all just kill each other and we were all idiots. But, you know, we're on a different we're on a different planet now and we're flying around and flying saucers.
Maybe they were onto something. Maybe. Maybe the Scientologists are onto something. Who knows? Maybe all these documentaries and all this stuff, it's all just propaganda and strategic deception so that human beings can't figure out that Scientology really is. Maybe all that shit's real. Who knows?
Yes, there's a lot. It's hard to know what's real these days. Really hard.
Yeah. And specifically in like downtown Clearwater in that the area that's 10 minutes away from here, there's this beautiful downtown area with all these, you know, it's on the water. It's great. Lots of tourists come. Scientology bought it. basically like, I want to say it's 75, 80% of all the retail, um, the retail storefront buildings that are like right on the main strip there. Oh.
And they just leave them empty. Yeah. So that like businesses don't come because they want to keep it just Scientology land. Apparently, they don't want it to be like full of tourists. But there's like this weird shadow war going on between Scientology and like the mayor of Clearwater because they want to bring in businesses and tourists. Scientology doesn't.
And Scientology is worth all this money. And they apparently, you know, still have a ton of it. And I think they're the biggest real estate holder and they own more real estate than like any business. Can you fact check that? Yeah.
see how much real estate Scientology owns because I heard I know like years ago they used to be like the top one or two holders of commercial real estate in the US but it's probably not true anymore I found a nice little picture. Y'all can chew on that one. Not just in Clearwater, though, like in the U.S. Oh, in the U.S. Yeah. How much real estate does the Church of Scientology hold?
Oh, yeah, for sure. Well... Do they really own real estate, though? They're kind of a different beast, right?
Right, right. All over Europe.
Yeah. The Catholic Church is a crazy one.
That's, you know, I heard there's a lot of spooky in the Vatican, too.
So, I mean, we're here talking bad about Scientology, but there's a lot of bad shit that the Catholic Church has done, too.
You know Jeffrey Kripal?
Yeah, he was telling me that he was called by some guy who was like at the Department of Energy or something or DARPA. I don't remember what it was. Some aerospace company called him up to do a – I forget the word he used. He called it like an intellectual lounge where they wanted him, a professor of religion to explain to them human levitation and like antiquity. Oh, it was a propulsion. Yeah.
He was a propulsion expert at like JPL or something like that. But what were we talking about before we got in the Scientology tangent? Remote viewing. Remote viewing. Yes. We were talking about how a lot of remote viewers, legendary remote viewers, like how put off were Scientologists at one point.
Oh, okay. Okay. He was also a physicist, right? Yes.
Yes. And he wrote a lot about him in the Phenomena book. Yeah. Ingo Swann, who had like a really strange childhood. He was a Scientologist his whole life?
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Discover a better way to balance security and readiness with Stopbox. I would love – I would just love to hear – I don't know if you've ever heard a Scientologist like one of those guys explain or make a case for Scientology, right? I've never – because I don't know if they're allowed to.
I don't know if they're allowed to like publicly go out and like have debates about Scientology because I know there's a lot of – weird rules with it. I would just be interested to hear like what, what those guys have to say about it and what they have to say about all the naysayers and all the stuff that's come out about it.
Yeah. Yeah, it definitely would be. Um, and so Ed may is a guy that you wrote a book about, right?
So tell me about the PK man.
Jack always talks about Russell.
Oh, I would love to.
Do you guys live close to each other?
Right, right, right, right. So the PK Man.
Well, that death is definitely a negative thing. I mean, that's kind of scary. No, it's not. It's not? No.
I'll see you bend a spoon, buddy.
They told you to take this?
I want to steal it from you.
What was the most compelling evidence that you were able to come up with about him?
What was the date? Can we find it online, you think?
Berkeley Gazette.
So, Berkeley. uh, and we would search for like UFO sighting or UFO.
Steve can find it.
Who was the gentleman, Steve, that we had in here who did the study on near-death experiences? That was Jeffrey Long. Jeffrey Long came in here.
What did the UFO look like?
Boom. Can you punch it on it? Yeah. Oh, I think I found a more higher resolution of this specific image. Yeah, that doesn't look like anything.
I don't know if you ever heard of him, but he was explaining to me how these people have experiences when, for example, when two people are in a car crash or a car accident together and one dies and one survives, the person who survives has a near-death experience and there's been multiple accounts where
Oh, okay, with the smoke.
Let's read what it says. Aerial artist UFO encounter. What is the little fine text underneath? Where the fuck are you? Right there. Yeah, right there. Steven Poleski, who, when permitting, creates aerial art by flying a stunt plane overhead while leaving trails of colored smoke, was startled Wednesday by performing over Cal State Sonoma.
Poleski suddenly became aware of a circular white object only 1,000 feet away. The event was also captured on Channel 9 TV cameras, and Poleski said videotaped footage. reruns check out and confirm the existence of a curious co-pilot in the sky. Pileski, a visiting professor at UC Berkeley, may have attracted a vast new audience for his unique art forms. Interesting. Yeah. Wow.
And this is right... How long after the guy told you there was going to be sightings? Four days. Four days. So were there any, like... repeatable experiments that you could do with him that you could document and test Very difficult. It's not, because this doesn't pass scientific method muster, right?
Right.
The one that survived explained this near-death experience where them and the person they were with kind of ascended into this ethereal dimension. And the other one was like taken away. And then they came back down into their bodies. And this apparently is an account. I forgot the name of it. But I think it was something like shared. Something similar to what you said.
Right, yeah, you can't measure it in a lab. It's not repeatable.
So did you ever do any experiments with him, like bringing in a box with something in it? You're like, tell me what's in this box.
Or like in Annie's book, she talks about they suspended something off the ceiling, like they suspended a flat platform from the ceiling and they would place things on top of it and they would have to go out of body to go figure out what it was.
What do you think about UFOs?
It's interesting to see how the media and the government tries to play with this thing.
You know, when you have all this stuff in the press and legacy media and you have people like this Grush guy and this Lou Elizondo guy come out and do all these podcasts and publish these books. And it's just I'm very, very it makes me more skeptical. And I think I'm speaking for a lot of people when I say that. I feel like I've said this many times before.
I feel like with the trust for the government in the U.S. right now.
If the government was to come out and say aliens are here, these UFOs are from this Zeta Reticuli, whatever you want to call it, planet, and we made a deal with them, I think there would be probably a very, very large percent of people that say – that basically do a 180 from believing it to not believing it just because the government admits it. I think that's very likely. Yeah.
But where they were both in the same situation.
Except for some people. My mom trusts it still.
You do?
I don't think so. I disagree. I think the alternatives are people like yourself and people like me and podcasters who just like to talk to people about stuff. And there's no sort of...
incentive to not talk about things because of advertising like i don't i don't shy away from topics because i have an advertiser i don't talk about certain things because other people are i don't have like editors or producers that are telling me what and what not to talk about um you know you have thing like i think it came out a couple years ago that
was like 80 to 90% of the advertising dollars that came in through MSNBC and CNN and Fox were from pharmaceutical companies during the pandemic. So like, what is your incentive to question anything when literally 90% of your money is from the pharmaceutical companies
And, you know, especially – and then I had a friend, Jack, who was a former Army Ranger and was – he's a self-published independent journalist who was doing a story on the Ukraine war. And he was doing a story on how the CIA was working with a – a NATO ally to conduct sabotage operations inside Russia. So they were blowing up ammunition, cargo banks, blowing up railroads and all this stuff.
He spent like probably six to eight months on the story. And he had lots of very credible sources in the military, retired CIA officers who confirmed all this. He did all his work, crossed all his T's, dotted all his I's, and he was working with an editor out of one of the top three publication newspapers in the country. And they were going back and forth throughout the whole process.
Like, this is great. They were getting ready to launch it. And I think it was in December. They planned on launching it, hitting the button to publish the thing. And right before they went to publish it, the editor of this publication said, okay, the final step is we need to get a sign off from the deputy director of CIA. So he's like, okay.
So they get on a three-way call with the deputy director of the CIA and And he says, I completely deny everything that's in here. This is false. So Jack, my friend who was publishing it, says, OK, I guess that's that's fine. If you deny it, we'll put we'll include that the deputy director completely denies everything that I've said in this article.
Instead of publishing it, the editor of the publication says they have an off the record agreement with the CIA and the deputy director. So if he denies it, we can't publish the article. So if you have the government controlling what journalists can put stories out, then what is that? That's not journalism. That's the opposite of journalism.
Sure. And that was his argument. That was the deputy director's argument that it could it could it could it was bad for national security.
But that's a slippery slope. That's a very slippery slope.
You can say anything's a hindrance to national security.
Yes, totally.
thinking aloud jeffrey mishlove thank you for coming sir pleasure it's a pleasure to meet you likewise big fan of your show thank you one of my favorite parts not to just not to discredit all of your all of your episodes and all of the incredible interviews you've done but i just have to tell you the intro to your show is the favorite intro to a podcast i've ever seen in my life
So, yeah, like I think from my perspective and just in general, I don't think that these legacy media outlets are going to survive much longer. I think it's similar to what happened with newspaper outlets. I think they're eventually going to die out. And I think that independent journalism, podcasts, stuff like that is going to rise up and take over. And I think people trust that more.
I mean, you can see that with this last election. The guy who won went on every single podcast known to man, including the biggest one. and the candidate who lost didn't. She won like two podcasts. So it was like, if the podcast, I think it's mainly with young people too. I think there's an age group. I think a lot of boomers still trust in legacy media. Like my mom is a great example.
All she watches is television and she believes everything she hears on the television. And with that kind of media, you don't hear any arguments to anything, right? It's kind of like an echo chamber. And with social media and with pocket with conversations like this, you can get a back and forth, a disagreement, a counterpoint to something.
And, you know, I think that that has a lot to do with why people trust this independent media so much more. Well, I actually young people.
Right, right. Is it empirical evidence, though? Yes. Do you think the CIA or the government or the military is still doing this kind of stuff, still spending money on this? David Morehouse seems to think so.
That makes sense.
Right. Yeah, totally. Yeah. There's I mean, there's so much stuff that's secret that you don't hear about until 20 years after they start doing it. Like another thing Annie wrote about when her DARPA book was like the stuff that they're doing does never comes out to the public.
So that must have been an interesting transition for you. When you were in these prisons, you were spending your days interviewing essentially psychopaths, right? Like murderers, rapists, some of the worst human beings on Earth.
And for another 20 years, like it's not comes doesn't come out to consumers for like, for example, Elon Musk's Neuralink, the chip that he's putting in people's brains to help them recover from paralysis or something. Eventually, if you extrapolate into the future, imagine what it could be used for.
But she claimed in her research that they've been experimenting on that with soldiers since the early 90s. And I think that's where most of the money goes too, right? A lot of the budgets, these black, dark budgets, the black budgets that you don't see about, it's not reported to Congress, goes to the stuff that has to be kept secret forever.
national security reasons or whatever to go towards this stuff because the most money goes that the most money that gets put into technology and innovation is for war right yeah i can tell you parapsychology got the tiniest little of that 20 million dollars over 20 years is not a lot of money for the government right the way david morehouse
was explaining this to me was there's actually, there were experiments done or, you know, when they did the remote viewing programs, the, he explained, he laid it out beautifully how they do it. And basically how they sit down, they have the person sit down, they don't tell them anything.
And they basically give them like some coordinates and ask them specific questions about what they're experiencing. And they were able to whether or not they were being accurate or not. And apparently they were a lot of the times, a lot of the people were. So did you ever do anything like this specifically?
And with your understanding of the human psyche and the makeup of the human condition, what do you think led you into the direction that you ended up going after you had this experience when you were 25? Yeah.
What do you mean? Oh, just looking at the human body.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Have you ever – there's a – there was a theory that we've talked about on this podcast many times. There was a guy, Chardon. You heard of Chardon? Teilhard de Chardon. Yeah. Sure. He had a theory about sort of like a universal consciousness that exists. The noosphere. The noosphere. Yeah. Yeah. Can you explain that? I'm rusty on it.
Okay, yes. Yeah, that's a good way. It's a good analogy for the way he – because there's – I think there was examples – In history or studies that were done where like a primate on one island would discover one thing at the same time that a primate on like an island on the opposite side of the world would figure something out.
Right. And the idea is that they're connected somehow consciously with a but like in this theory, a layer of consciousness that exists around us and we're just tapping into it.
Right.
Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely something to that. There's something to that. You know, it's almost impossible to measure. And it doesn't, like, how do you explain that through physics, right? Like, you can't.
Right, right. Yeah. The multi-worlds theory. And this somehow connects to time travel in some weird way. There's the block universe, right?
Yes. So is the block universe consistent or compatible with quantum entanglement? No. No, the block universe is not consistent.
Right, right, right.
Yeah, I think, you know, like we were talking about earlier with the Michael Masters theory on time traveling humans, like the way and then like how that works. And I think that works in the block universe in a way to where like.
if we could figure out backwards time travel or the way he started it out was like, if we wanted to go to another star, like we want to leave our solar system rocket time, the way we're traveling, if we travel close to the speed of light on earth, time travel is like a thousand times a thousand X. Right.
So like if we're traveling from one edge of the universe to the other, it takes us like at light speed,
What university were you at? Berkeley. Berkeley. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. Were you reading books on this stuff prior? Did you know any? Have you heard any, like, crazy, phenomenal stories, exceptional stories about stuff like this before this happened?
Right, it would take a couple decades probably. No, zero. Really? Can you Google that? How long would it take to travel from across the universe at light speed? Not the universe, across the universe. The galaxy, right. Oh, the galaxy. The Milky Way.
Okay. Maybe they were talking about the solar stuff. How long would it, how many light years across is our solar system? One. That's one light year. Yeah. Two light years. Okay, anyways, I don't know what... He was explaining that rocket time, like if we were to travel across, say, halfway across the Milky Way, right? So 50 years, roughly?
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right. So like if somebody was to try to go, if hypothetically we figured out light speed, close to light speed travel, the person doing that trip would have to kiss everyone they know goodbye. They would have to kiss the world goodbye because the time they got back, the world would have surpassed so many years. It would be gone.
Like it would be millions of years or hundreds of thousands of years in the future on earth. That's right. So like the point he was making is that it would be futile to go on a trip like this Right.
To go on a light speed trip out into the galaxy, because let's say after 10 years of rocket time on that trip, being human beings on Earth would have evolved so much that they would have figured out how to get there with a full belly full of breakfast. They would pull up right next to him and they would have left that morning. What have we done?
We wasted 10 years of our life and the human beings have evolved so
Right. Yeah, so if we were going to try to do that, if you wanted to get some scientists or astronauts to go out and do this, it would be nice to have backward time travel first so they can go back and see their family again, right?
So if we were to ever figure out backwards time travel, which I don't know how we would do that.
Right.
Yes, yeah.
Yeah, and that ties into like precognition, precognitive dreams, stuff like that. Yeah, Eric Wargo wrote about that in Time Loops as well. That's right. So, yeah, his theory is like in the future, if there was like some sort of global thermonuclear war and it killed off a lot of humans, our species would stagnate and we would be homogenized and we would sort of like –
we would basically be, you know, we wouldn't be as diverse as a species as we are now. Like, so, so if there was some sort of cataclysm or like I said, a globe, a thermo nuclear war or something that killed off a lot of species, his crazy theory is like, I kind of like the theory. I don't think it's that crazy. If we were that capable, we would go back in time and take DNA from past humans and
To try to diversify our species in the future. Right.
And if you look at all the cases of the abduction cases from like John Mack.
He a lot of them are a vast majority of them are like extracting eggs and sperm from the people that are being abducted.
Right. Whitley Streber. Yeah. He's a big one. Betty and Barney Hill. They're like the most famous ones, but apparently there's a lot of them. And also a lot of them say, of all the cases I think that were documented by John Mack, I think it was like a 70, 30 split between the people who actually asked the beings where they, who they were.
30% said they were from some star system and like 60 or 70% said they were from the future. So that's interesting. And then he's an anthropologist. So what he explained to me was there's this concept called pedomorphism, where I'm going to try to articulate this the best I can because it's complicated. But so he was explaining that in evolution,
the farther evolved, the farther evolved, at least for primates, they get the children of the ancestors look more like the adults of the future descendants, right? So if you look at a baby chimp, It's kind of like a bulbous head sits straight up like this. Right. Doesn't its body is kind of small. It's more proportion of a human being of a human being today.
When the baby chip grows up, it's got a smaller, smaller cranium, big muscular body. It's kind of like hunched over. he says that this is something that you can extrapolate into the future of our species that in a hundred thousand or a million years full-grown human beings are going to look like the toddlers of today and if you if you look at all those accounts they look like children those beings
It would explain the pyramids.
A lot of crazy mysteries, right?
Right. Yes. Wow. That's deep.
And this is – what is the name of this theory that aliens somehow – Genetically altered. Well, this doesn't tie into McKenna's theory, right?
Yeah, that's a wild one. That's a popular one for sure.
Yeah. Did you ever talk to Terence McKenna about the monkey mushroom theory? Yes. What's the name of that theory again? I don't know that it has a name. It's called, you know, there's a name for it. Stone date theory. That's what it is. Stone date theory. Stone date theory. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's probably my favorite one. You know.
Yeah, I had a guy in here a couple months ago from India. And he was explaining to us, Steve, maybe you can remember the name of these monkeys. There's these monkeys that are in India.
that love to eat psychedelic mushrooms and he was explaining how they they act so much like humans where they will only have like like they don't have a lot of kids they stay with with one mate right they don't they don't go out and find a bunch of mates like other primates do they stick with one mate forever and they only have children with them a couple children and they they raise them and like a lot of their
the way they live and the things they do in their environment are very, very similar. And he, he thinks that they're basically like evolving with the mushrooms in real, like stoned ape theory happening in real time. Can you find the name of that monkey? Do you remember that? That's okay. I'm trying to find it. It's all right.
But you did some sort of competition or something with that billionaire dude?
Bigelow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Why did he want to do that?
Yeah. I saw you interviewed Terrence McKenna. Many times. That's badass. That is so cool. What was he like?
Oh, no. So he decided to do this. That was wild.
Oh, it's super creative. I mean, like people that are willing to spend that much money to do something like this where there's no monetary return, like there's no profit to be found just out of pure creativity and curiosity.
That's... That's really cool. So how did it work? How did he pick people to do this?
Okay. And how did you get picked? Obviously, you filled out an application.
Oh, yeah. She works for the New York Times, right?
Yeah. Fascinating. How did you guys, did you just reach out to him to be on the show or were you like, did you guys work together on anything or? No, we never- How did you guys come in touch?
1972. Yeah. And you used to do this on, was it the radio or was it television or how did this all start?
No, Bigelow. Oh, Bigelow said this. Yeah. Oh, wow.
That's so cool. Yeah. All right. So walk me through.
Episcopalian Bishop of California. Okay.
Wow.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Right. The one about Elizabeth Crone is pretty bananas as well. She's the one who was walking into her synagogue and got struck by lightning. Yes. Yeah.
she became a good friend she left her body and said she went to this crazy garden this ethereal place and she had a choice to go to the afterlife or to go back to her body she chose to go back to her body which is why that's that's that's that blew my mind that story that's funny part too where the i guess the um somebody saw her get struck by lightning and walked it they ran to the synagogue and said is there a doctor in the house but everyone raised their hand
Right, right. What are the chances of that? Yeah. Good Lord. Yeah. Yeah. And she explained like how she walked in the synagogue and she was like, Trying to talk to people and get help or whatever, because she thought she was hurt. But then she realized that no one was like acknowledging her or interacting with her. And then she turned around and saw her body laying on the ground.
Right. Yeah. Right. That's so wild. Okay. So, so you wrote about this and you ended up winning this whole competition.
That's wild. How much money did you win?
You pay cash? Give you a suitcase full of cash?
Those are the two biggest questions that we have is what happens after we die and are we alone? And you're right on the leading edge of all this stuff.
And where did we come from? Right, right, right. So what do you think happened? What do you think is going on here when people are having these near-death experiences? And where are we going?
The early stages of the afterlife. Okay.
Yeah. But what do you think happens after that stage? Where do you think we go? Yeah.
Do you believe in God?
What do you think God is?
Yeah. Yeah, I tend to agree with you. Yeah, the more and more I think about it, I think that God is the universe. You know?
Or that. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So... After you won this award, and you won all this money from Bigelow, after he wrote you the check, what did you? Do you have any, like conversations with him about this? And like, and is he trying to explore this further or push the boundaries of this?
Oh, has he really? Yes. Interesting.
Okay. I mean, you weren't in the Bay Area in the 70s. Yes, I was. Oh, you still were. Oh, yeah. When were the Manson murders? I don't remember. Yeah. Was that the same time?
Yeah, what were you saying?
Why DeSantis, you think?
Oh, and he wanted DeSantis to be president?
He did?
Interesting. interesting guy man to have that much money and to be willing just to throw it out at all these crazy ideas and crazy you know just just like dump millions of dollars just into curiosity that's not gonna not gonna pay you back you know like all the people with the most money in the world just seems like they do the things that's gonna make them more money you know
Right, right. I heard something a while ago. I don't know if it's true, but I heard that – With all – like there's some sort of rule in the FAA where if pilots or commercial pilots or anything see any kind of UFO or unidentified object in their airspace, they have to report it to his private – I think it was his private aerospace company but not the FAA. Yeah.
Of course.
Hmm. I had, um, you familiar with James Fox, a filmmaker? Yes. Yeah. He was on here and he was telling me he had a meeting with, uh, he actually said it on the podcast. He had a lunch with Bigelow and he said at that lunch, he's told him that he, he knows for a fact that aliens are walking among us. Bigelow told James Fox. He didn't say he believes it. He says he knows it.
Yeah, that's the thing about this whole thing, right? There's no evidence of anything. We don't have any evidence. This phenomena hangs out on the edge of human perception, and it's almost like it's on purpose.
Yes. And far more than the UFOs. We don't have any evidence of that. I mean, we have people see UFOs or documented accounts, these pilots seeing things, but there's nothing. There's nothing. I mean, even with Grush, right, came out. I mean, Grush was everywhere for a while talking about this.
of these of these whistleblowers these people that were in this skiff that that testified that they knew there was aliens he even said there was biologics whatever the hell that means right um and then he came out the story about the football field size ufo that he walked into it was like 100 feet it was like 40 feet long on the outside when you walk into it it's as big as a football field like i i just my brain goes to like what kind of strategic deception is this and this guy's is this this guy a useful idiot
And another person who Annie Jacobson told me about and I got educated on after she told me was Paul Benowitz, his story. And ever since I learned about what happened to Paul Benowitz, that really kind of changed my view on all of this stuff.
Yeah. So he was like huge, a UFO activist going to all these meetings and these conventions about UFOs, right? And he was seeing these things flying above the mountains over an Air Force base. And Richard Doty, the counterintelligence guy, went and said, hey, can we check out? We heard that you're seeing some stuff. Let's see what you got, right?
Just to see like what kind of information you actually had. And he told Paul that he thinks they, I think you're onto something. I think these are aliens. These are UFOs. And the purpose, which makes total sense,
was to use Paul as a conduit to poison the well of the UFO community, to tell them that it was UFOs or aliens and that, you know, we don't know what this is because that they assumed and they were probably right, that there was Russian spies within that UFO community that were trying to figure out what we were doing. Right.
Because they suspected that it was technology that the air force, the CIA was testing. Right.
Yeah.
Yeah. Right. And that was the whole point of it.
So I wonder like how many people right now, like Grush included are, are being Paul Benowitz.
And like a great example of this is this this gentleman I had on the show. His name's Chris Bledsoe. He's from North Carolina. And he sees these orbs, these light orbs that fly around.
Okay. Yeah. August 10th, 69.
Yeah. And he took me and Steve out to the beach the night before we did the show with him and his family. And he started saying these prayers on the beach, like praying for these things to show themselves. He believes that they're angelic beings. And after like an hour and a half, there were these weird lights that came up off the ocean, would move around in weird ways.
They definitely weren't airplanes because we saw airplanes that were coming in, the air traffic that was coming in and landing in Tampa.
It was a very specific flight path. There was a couple of specific flight paths that we could see a pattern with the airplanes. There were flashing lights. These were not those. We got it on video. Steve, you have the video? Ever since I changed computers, I don't. I had to re-find it. It's on Dropbox. But anyways, so like that was wild.
But at the same time, I've never seen anything like that before. But at the same time, I've never stared at the sky for two hours straight.
Oh really? Okay. Yeah. I just arrived. You just got there.
So is this stuff always there?
Yes, that reminded me of that.
Right, right.
Right. Right. Right. I guess not. And the other thing about him is that there was more people. He was visited by so many people in the military and within NASA and within other countries.
Um, so, so, um, again, Tom O'Neill was working in, I want to say it was like the year 2000, maybe he got, um, an assignment to write basically an article on the 30 whatever year anniversary of the Manson murders. Um, so we started doing that and, um, after about six months, he like, he wasn't interested in this at all for it to start off with.
Spooky agencies, CIA, one guy from the NRO, some really shadowy guy in the NRO that was coming to his kids' football games and stuff like that and befriending them and trying to figure out, inviting him to the launches at NASA in Cape Canaveral. Your friend John Alexander became good friends with him. Yep. And like reinforced his belief that these are angelic beings. These are angels.
We want to know how we want to figure out how you're seeing these things. And like they've they've cemented his belief of this stuff. And at the same time, these are people who are trained liars for the U.S. government. Not all of them. But like the CIA, that's typically what the CIA is supposed to do.
Like, you know, in when Area 51 was started, they when the CIA pilots started testing the first jet planes, they had to bring gorilla masks in the cockpit with them for in case they came in visual distance of a passenger airplane. If they saw a jet airplane flying, they would put the gorilla mask on.
So if they were to go to the bar and say, hey, I saw this fucking crazy jet propelled airplane today and it was a gorilla flying it. All right. Strategic deception. We've been playing these games forever.
Yeah, and they work together.
Yeah, they have.
Right, right. It's just knowing the history of the things that they've done and how much money and effort they put into strategic deception to keep people ignorant of what's really going on for national security, whatever their explanation is, whatever their excuse is.
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff. He made a very compelling case on here and I didn't know what to make of it. Like no one's ever been able to show me something like that before. And like there was other things that were like shooting stars. Flying above our heads, like less than 100 feet above our heads. Like, it was wild.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, too, I think it's probably... I think human beings have... Like ESP or whatever you want to call it, like a heightened sense of sensory ability or more senses that we that are suppressed and buried inside of us because of the technological world that we live in. Yes. We live in these concrete jungles with artificial light everywhere.
But after about six months, he started to like get all these leads and like start getting interested in it and being like getting led down all these rabbit holes. Like, whoa, whoa.
And, you know, everything is on screens right in front of us. And, you know, we and when there's this phenomena that happens, I don't know if there's a name for it, but. when people go into like the Amazon rainforest for the first time, they take their feet off and they walk around and they're there for a couple hours.
It's like something awakens within them where like the cadence of the crickets or the monkeys or the birds above them, like something is being awakened in them. We're like, wow, I kind of know how to sense stuff in a different way now, right? That they never experienced before living in in our modern technological society that we're accustomed to and that we don't ever escape.
Right, right. Yeah, it goes against the world we live in because the world we live in is based on money and capitalism and profits and making and inventing new things that are going to just drive the economy. And it's this train that we're on, this trajectory that humanity is on right now. It's on this, we're here to evolve technology, right? Right. And it's it works.
Like couldn't believe what he was finding out about the, about, you know, what, what actually happened and all like, he's like, this isn't matching up because you know, the famous Helter Skelter book that was written by the prosecutor, um, that was his familiarity with the case. And he was like, everything that he was learning was not lining up with any of that stuff.
It works right in line with the the world economy and capitalism, the way we're like, if there's no way to get off the train that we're on right now, the way that we're like the path that we're on as a society and humanity. It's like it's like the direction we're going. It's almost like. Not the direction you want to go.
Yeah.
Right, exactly. Yeah. And another guy who talks a lot about the same stuff, who you interviewed, Jacques Vallée. You've had him, you've done, had talked to them a couple of times, right? What did you make of him?
Oh, wow. And you do a lot of in-person ones, too, or do you do mostly remote?
Yeah, I find it the in-person interviews are just way more better. They're way more real and there's like a certain magic you lose through a screen when you're having a conversation like this.
Yeah. It makes a difference. I appreciate you coming, man. I'm sorry the hotel was lousy. Next time we'll get a better hotel. It was fine. It's been fun talking to you, man. Thank you again for your time.
And tell folks listening where they can find all of your amazing interviews and search for you on all the platforms.
And long story short, he ended up getting fired from the magazine because he was taking too long and he kept reporting on it. So he would like dedicated the next 10 or 20 years to reporting this. And he, he followed up on everything from, uh, from Manson's, uh,
That's incredible, man. Yeah. And you have the most comprehensive library on your channel of interviews and folks that have been deep in this stuff for their whole life. Is your Terrence McKenna is on this channel, your Terrence McKenna interviews?
It's crazy how long you've been publishing. I was watching that one, and I was watching some of your interviews, and I was looking at the date published. It was like 13 years ago.
That's fascinating, man. Yeah. Really cool stuff. Well, thanks again. I will link all of your stuff below, including your YouTube channel, so people can go check that out. And thanks again, man. I really appreciate this.
Cool. I'll link that as well. Thank you. Cool. All right. Good night, folks.
his probation officer, and all the people that were surrounding him, all the people that were a part of that clinic, that Haight-Ashbury clinic in the Bay Area, in San Francisco. And they were doing... Apparently that clinic was funded by the CIA and they were doing these experiments on people.
It was part of this operation called chaos where they were, you know, it was, it was basically in conjunction with MK ultra and the other one, forget that. I forget the name of the other one, but they were doing experiments with LSD and amphetamines. So giving people amphetamines and LSD and seeing how, they could manipulate the mind or control the mind. Yeah. It was chaos, MK ultra.
And I forget the name of the other one. Like Manson kept getting let off probation. He was not supposed to be let off probation all those times. He kept getting caught for all these crazy, crazy things, you know, like stealing cars and all this stuff. And they kept, he kept getting let out when he shouldn't have been let out. And yeah,
the fact that he was kept going to this clinic that was connected to the CIA and funded by the CIA and all this stuff. It's a fascinating book, but it takes place right in the area where you were right after those murders. And then Jolly West, are you familiar with Jolly West? Jolly West was a, a CIA chemist.
Um, who did, he's famous for, uh, injecting the elephant, that giant circus elephant with LSD. I think he gave him like a couple ounces of LSD and ended up killing the elephant. Um, and he was really proud of that. He bragged about that openly. And Jolly West was also the guy. Um, yeah, there is Joyland West. He was connected to that, uh, clinic in Haight-Ashbury.
He actually visited Jack Ruby, um, in prison multiple times before he died. So, and he was connected to the CIA. So anyways, that was a long tangent, but it's interesting that this was all going on the same time you were in that area.
So, okay. So you were talking to people like McKenna. You were talking to people like Jacques Vallée back in the day around the same time, right? Right. So this is just what you went into? You went into journalism, essentially?
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I mean, the moon landing was such a fundamental pillar of America for the last 55 years. I mean, it's been taught in schools. It's in all the libraries. It is literally woven into the fabric of our being. So to knock out those legs...
Wow. Wow. You sure have crossed your T's and dotted your I's, Bart. It's amazing the amount of work that you've done. It really is.
Thank you for coming and doing this, man. I really appreciate it. That was three hours. Where can people find out more about your – obviously, we let people know, Sibrell.com, your book, Moon Man. But is there anything else that you plan on doing in the future, in the near future, any more investigative work regarding this stuff?
The CIA is going to come to you and say, Bart, we're going to give you a billion dollars. Just shut up about the moon landing.
I've heard this. How many?
Fantastic, man. Thanks again. I really appreciate it. We will link all your stuff below. And anything else we missed that we should talk about? Just pray.
I want to go through all this stuff. We're going to. But first, what do you know about or have you talked to any people in Russia or former Soviet Union about this? Whether it be intelligence people, rocket scientists, anybody like that. Have you talked to anyone?
So you think Russia and China are blackmailing NASA?
So even if Russia or China came out and said, hey, they faked the moon landing, who would believe them anyways?
I'm like 0 for 10 on that one, Steve. Yeah. I don't get out much. There's this elusive guy who allegedly worked for NASA who mapped the moon for the Apollo missions, and his name was Hal Pauvenmeier, secretive guy. Anyways, that's neither here nor there. Where were we? So we wanted to go to start talking about the evidence. So to you...
What is the number one best, most solid, grounded piece of evidence?
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Okay. So the idea is they pulled the camera all the way back into the back of the space capsule they were in. And there was a little round window at the far end and it was supposed to make, they turned all the lights off inside and they opened up the aperture so that it would look like the blackness inside of the cabin they were in was outer space.
Well, yeah, okay. Right. They didn't want it to be exposed for the inside of the spaceship, so they only wanted it to be exposed for the outside. Because, like, right now, if we shined a camera out the window, exposed for the inside, the outside would be blown out and completely...
Where did you get that reel?
Is there any evidence of that transparency thing?
That clip certainly looks – is pretty obvious that they were trying to pull off a camera trick, especially when they turn on lights inside the cabin. But – Some of your critics say that there is footage and they show I've seen footage online of Apollo 10, where the camera goes from one window showing the moon and pans over to the other window opposite showing the earth.
And there's also additional footage from Apollo 11, where it shows footage of the earth. A little bit closer than that, I think, where it shows it moving in and out of the window frame because the camera's moving around, not still.
Right.
Okay. I'm completely with you on this.
Can we talk about that other footage, though, from Apollo 11? where there's shots of the window where it shows the Earth moving around and it looks legitimate? Well, you can show it if you want, if you have it queued up. I don't know if we have it queued up, but what do you make of that?
Stephen, I sent you the clip earlier. I texted it to you.
It was like nine minutes and something. Nine minutes, 15 seconds, Steve, remember? Right here, right here.
It shows blackness. If they were in low Earth orbit, wouldn't you see the entire Earth moving with clouds moving?
I was talking to you the other day on the phone and I was telling you like, I don't really, I'm not up to speed on all of the little nuances and like all of the actual evidence that you've gone through for your, you know, for your idea or for your conclusion that the moon landing was a fraud.
So one of the pushbacks, one of the pushes, you know, the counter arguments to that would be that atomic bombs and airplanes are tied to the economy and the military industrial complex for world global dominance militarily and airplane for commercial travel money. All the, the biggest innovations in the world are tied to the economy, right?
And going to the moon, not, I don't know how the going to the moon would benefit the economy or our military, right?
Well, the shadow from the bigger rock is even more interesting.
And you have a cinematography background.
And you think electrical light, meaning you're very close. What you're saying is it's an artificial light source that is much closer than 90 million miles away.
Do you know if they've, did they film this in like an airplane hangar?
Oh, I thought Bill Kaysing said it was shot at Area 51.
Hang on. I want to stay on this for a second. Okay. What is the pushback you get for the shadows? What is their explanation? I've never heard pushback on it. Steve, what do you think about the shadows? Steve has a background in cinematography.
Well, that one, you guys are, you and the pole are kind of going the same direction.
Well, the cell phones, they all have three different lengths now.
Okay.
This rock is casting two shadows. Oh, it's casting two shadows. Yeah. From the first light and the second light.
Steve, if we were on a film set, could we flag off that second shadow behind the trash can?
They had flags and stuff.
Diffusers and...
Basically, to get these two shadows intersecting in the way they are, one going straight, one going to the left, you cannot reproduce that with one single light source.
Yeah, show the moon rock with the astronaut in the foreground.
The big rock on the top right is crazy. It's literally a complete 90-degree angle.
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Except for the Great Pyramids.
But the variation in how square they are is not even close.
You don't think the pyramids were made by aliens?
Okay. Yeah.
So basically what he's saying is his dad was a security guard during the filming of the videos that we see for them on the surface of the moon.
When did you publish it?
The thing that really opened the door to this idea for me was that the idea of the moon landing being a hoax was born during the time of the highest distrust of the US government. In 1963, the president was assassinated. In 1974, the first U.S. president resigned. In 1975, the CIA admitted to doing mind control experiments on unwitting humans. And in April, Saigon fell and we lost the Vietnam War.
Is this the Gus Grissom guy?
And then I watched astronauts gone wild, which by the way is the best title to a documentary ever created in human history for people who, that may have not read your books or seen podcasts with you. Can you walk us through how this whole journey started for you?
Van Allen was also one of the guys on set that day.
There's been no astronauts that have been anywhere near that.
So the Van Allen radiation belts are like big donuts that go around. around like the equator of the moon. They go pretty high and they go pretty low, but there's holes in the top and bottom, right?
Some people speculate that the Apollo missions could have slingshotted, they took off from Florida and could have slingshotted themselves around a little bit North or a little bit South and gone like through the top or to the bottom of it.
protection around that capsule they were in right they would have to have lead maybe or or about three feet of water is the latest idea okay this is why i mean they said in 2014 so they sorry to interrupt but they but they they've sent animals through there right to test it
period in time during the cold war was when the cia was doing some of the most sinister in its history as far as we know so if they're willing to do if our government is willing to do those things why wouldn't they be willing to fake the moon landing? Which isn't necessarily, it's not necessarily evil in the fact that you're hurting anybody because you're not, you're not hurting anybody.
Yes, animals have been sent through the Van Allen radiation belts. Laika, a dog, was the first animal in space aboard Sputnik 2, but her mission was intended for 10 days and she only survived for two days due to the spacecraft overheating.
However, no animals were specifically sent to evaluate the effects of radiation on biological organisms before sending astronauts through the Van Allen radiation belts. Instead, NASA designed the Apollo missions to minimize exposure by sending aircraft through the narrowest part of the belts at the poles and ensuring the trajectories avoided the densest regions of the belts.
It's contradicting the NASA flight logs.
Zoom in a little bit, Steve, so I can read that a little bit better. Down below that, I'm just punching so I can see the whole line. One of the big issues is that they have really cut funding for biology issues.
Let's take a pause real quick. I got to take a leak real quick.
Okay, so we were just talking about, before we took our break, we're back. We were talking about Elon was saying that he would need nine fuel stops to get to the moon.
Can you find out where he said that, Steve?
Go to the headline. What does the headline say?
Elon Musk says it could take eight Starship launches to fuel up a single moon trip.
If you want to... Zoom in, Steve, real quick. I just want to read the first part of this. Delivering astronauts to the moon is no easy feat, and it requires a disgusting amount of rocket fuel to pull it off. With its fuel tanks filled to the brim, NASA's Saturn V rockets weighed in at 6.5 million pounds during the Apollo missions...
Almost half a century ago, it managed to burn up to 20 tons of rocket fuel every second. Fast forward several decades, and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk is trying to achieve similar greatness with the space company Starship Rocket. This time, it's going to take a lot of refueling to get there. SpaceX competitor Blue Origin recently griped that SpaceX might need as many as 16 launches to get to the moon.
All you're really doing is, It's propaganda to push the view of America forward in the public narrative, right?
So each one of those nine rockets Elon's talking about would have to be full of fuel.
Just to make sure I'm following. The first one would be able to get with full of fuel, would be able to get into orbit.
The next one would have to go, I'm assuming, would be able to go the same distance, fuel the one up in orbit. At least eight. At least eight trips of fuel. So after it fuels it up again, I guess they can hit the blasters and go even farther. But then you have to send another one up twice as far to fuel it up again, right?
And who specifically said that it was all destroyed?
And how much did it cost to put the – In today's dollars, $250 billion.
A little bit before that, Steve.
Rewind, watch that again, Steve. From the point they're arguing, rewind it. Right there, yeah, play it from there. So that's him right there and that's his son behind him.
So that sounds like they're inside, though.
What was Edgar's response to that?
Right. So I'm curious to give it context. Because I'm sure, did he stop recording right after he got the question? Or was there more audio after that?
I think it would be really interesting or relevant also to hear what Edgar said to that. Like if he was joking with him or maybe he didn't say anything or maybe he was like, yeah, I think we should call.
a shock that i was assaulted he forgot to hit stop record so well i would like i understand that part i'm just saying it would be super relevant to leave in what his response was to his son is all i'm saying yeah i don't think there was a response otherwise i would have left it in there okay yeah
So I want to ask you about this rich billionaire, millionaire rocket scientist guy who funded your movie. How did you meet him?
How certain are you guys? How certain are you that this guy who funded you wasn't some sort of foreign op?
When you first met him and accepted the money, I mean, like you would see how Russia or China would have the incentive to fund you to make a movie exposing.
So you're certain this guy works for NASA as a rocket engineer?
Is he still involved in this stuff?
What does he think about UFOs?
But that doesn't mean they're demons, right?
Interesting. So you're not willing to say whether this guy's still involved in any of this rocketry stuff or NASA or SpaceX or anything like that?
What do you think the strongest evidence is on the other side for it actually happening?
I don't know why I'm just thinking about this, but isn't there a guy who's like living in Russia or living overseas right now that was a part of the Apollo or that exposed some part of NASA's database that like proved that the moon landing wasn't real? I haven't heard of that one. Steve, remember this guy we're talking about the other day?
Yeah, a Russian guy who... I don't know if he was Russian, but he was part of NASA. He leaked some sort of something from NASA that proved that the moon landing was fake. And he basically left the U.S. Because what he did was he leaked confidential stuff that NASA had. Remember this? You don't remember this guy? I don't remember. Wow.
No, this was a younger guy, younger gentleman who is more – he wasn't actually alive during the Apollo missions, but he, I guess, was working for NASA and then found something and then illegally leaked it.
Also, one of the big things is that the temperature, which is crazy, the temperature in the light of the moon is 250 degrees Fahrenheit. Approximately. Approximately. And then the temperature in the shadow, which could be, what, 50 feet away, can be negative 200 degrees Fahrenheit?
So...
Yeah. Also, to me, it sounds like if they have batteries, I don't know exactly what kind of battery. I'm not a battery expert, but imagine if they have batteries and they have electronic components. their microchips, whatever the hell they were using in that lunar lander, it would be better to have it in a colder environment than it would be to have batteries in a 250 degree environment.
They're both bad, but what one's less bad for, like, you know, transistors and microchips work better in colder environments?
Mr. Bart Cybrell, it's an honor to have you in here, man. I'm glad we can make this happen. Sure, no problem. Over the last two days, I've been reading your book and watching your documentaries and really diving deep into your background and your whole history of the moon landing.
He probably doesn't have the access to that information.
He insisted the moon rock be removed. Correct. Yep. Find that, Steve. Find it, Steve. Speaking of moon rocks, what's the story of Von Braun going to Antarctica?
Yes, makes your mind better.
Without the jitters of caffeine or energy drinks.
It improves your memory, your recall. It's got lion's mane, all the good brain stuff, mind sharpener, and energy. Cheers. All right. One of the things that's funny about the moon landing conspiracy is... You could question 9-11. You can question JFK's assassination. You can question all these other things. But if you question the moon landing, you're a fool. Why is that?
Right, unless the radiation was going to damage all your film and your cameras, and you're like, we went, but we don't have any proof, so we've got to have backup footage.
This must have been before you released any of this stuff, because now they got a restraining order against your ass.
25th anniversary.
That's one of the craziest things about this. You are like a superstar for humanity. If you're the first human being to ever step foot on another planet, right? Like, and it looks like you're not, you don't do any interviews other than the press conference right after and the 25th year anniversary, right?
Yeah, pull up that 25th year anniversary.
Yeah. Let's pull that up real quick. I also want to show you something.
This is allegedly... This was given to me by Brian Keating, who came on the podcast about a year ago. This is allegedly a piece of the moon.
Let's just go with fake.
He wasn't reading it. Yeah. Remove one of truth's protective layers.
Another huge problem with it, if it was fraudulent and the whole thing was fake, if we do figure out how to get to the moon eventually, now you have to compound and cover up for the previous lie. Because now if we go to the moon again for real, right, and we show footage, we show photos, we show evidence of it,
We have to make sure that corroborates everything that the fake thing we did back in 1969. Make sure they both match up, right? We have to cover for that lie still.
Exactly, exactly.
When is the alleged next scheduled flight with astronauts to go at least orbit around the moon?
This year, September.
The next scheduled moon mission is the Artemis II mission, which NASA now targets for September 2025. This mission will be the first crewed Artemis mission around the moon.
I'll bet you this fake moon rock.
Perfect.
We're going to come do a follow-up podcast.
The biggest problem now is not just the radiation, it's the fuel.
that's why the two people i spoke to who work on the artemis and orion project said they're they're there at nasa working on this they said absolutely the moon missions are fake i got emails from them they work there what was the confusion during the press conference with michael collins talking about the stars because he was like i think i think it was buzz who said he didn't remember
Or was that Neil Armstrong who said he didn't remember? And then Michael Collins was like, I never saw stars.
That would make sense. That makes sense, right?
Really?
You're talking about a footage of the Earth from the moon.
No, there's no shot of an astronaut on the moon with the Earth in the background.
That would be the actual size of the Earth, right, from the moon, right?
It would be essentially four times bigger than the full moon looks from here.
He was in.
Right. Did you have any trouble publishing your book or ever getting any of this stuff out? Did you have any pushback from book publishers or from... video publishers or anything like this?
So you somehow ended up in a mental hospital.
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And these guys visited you in the mental hospital.
And they didn't tell you anything about who they were or where they were from?
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Yeah, it's just the idea of coming clean on the moon landing being fake. It doesn't seem like there's, I don't know, maybe there's no upside to any of this stuff. Like Trump's been saying he's going to release the JFK files.
He said it last time. Yeah, he did. And when it comes to like the JFK files, I think the majority of Americans can paint the picture of what happened with the JFK thing. I mean, there's been enough documentaries and books and stuff written about the truth of what happened with JFK. There's not, I think it's the vast majority of people know that there was some sort of conspiracy there.
It's not like that, which is with the moon, which is so crazy.
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Has there any been, everyone's heard the conspiracy that Stanley Kubrick helped film the footage. Is there any hard evidence to him having any involvement in this at all?
I didn't know that.
what do you think it would take for the public to wake up to this and be kicked in the teeth for lack of a better word or lack of a better analogy to take this stuff more? Cause you've been working on this for your whole life, right? You've been talking about this since you were in your teens, right? So are Steli studying it and you're, you're,
the number one guy, you're like the, the father of this moon landing conspiracy other than bill casing. He was like the grandfather of this, like this, this whole, um, investigation. And it's you two that have been pushing this to the forefront forever. And there, there hasn't really been any other evidence provided by anybody who has come out as like a quote unquote whistleblower or anything.
But have you put like, how much thought have you put into like, um, what would actually get somebody in the government to like somebody like Elon, for example, to push this forward, to get people in maybe Congress to take this more seriously.
Do you think – I know Rogan was trying to get somebody to debate you. Do you think that will ever happen?
He has a huge audience, and he has to be accountable, and he has to sort of play the middle ground.
That would be mind-blowing to see you debate one of the astronauts.
I think one of the main reasons that we want to do that, that they want to do that, and I think it's important that that happens, is because to give you an idea of some of the people that go on the internet these days that claim they have the absolute truth. And they talk about things with absolute 100% conviction on stuff. Most of those people are full of shit.
I don't think you're full of shit, but you do talk about this stuff with absolute 100% conviction, which I can see how some people get rubbed the wrong way.
And what specific AI was this that said that?
Steve, can you find the article on the Google Neural AI and find any kind of external source to this?
So you can find that, Steve. Have you also have you thought about or done like the mental exercise of hypothetically what it would take? What kind of information that would come out that it would take to change your mind back to the moon landings being real?
No, I mean to be converted back. Do you know what it would take to convert you back to believing that the moon landing did actually happen?
This is Brave Browser.
okay let's see what this says first just to see what their argument is and then we'll look at that video so this is the space coast rocket website uh google's ai technology analysis suggests apollo 11 moon landing photos are fabricated let's read the first paragraph a recent development in the ongoing debate over the authenticity authenticity of the u.s moon landing photographs has emerged
Have you read Annie Jacobson's book, Area 51? No. She talks about you and Bill Kaysing, and I think it's the last chapter. And what she's talking – there's a whole section about the moon landing, and what she was claiming was that there was Soviet –
fueled by artificial intelligence. During the World Tour of Artificial Intelligence event in Moscow, Russian President Vladimir Putin was presented with an AI analysis suggesting that the images of the US astronauts landing on the moon might not be genuine.
How far into this video do we have to go?
And when did this happen?
A little more than a year ago.
In fact, if I... Yeah, they wouldn't want to do it because you're claiming they want the blackmail.
Did you see the video on the press conference of the head of NASA when they were asking him about the Chinese –
disinformation groups that were betting themselves in the u.s and that bill i i might be i don't remember if she said bill exactly but there were some people that were heading up some moon landing hoax groups and that they were um essentially soviet spies trying to sow distrust in this narrative in the u.s are you familiar with any of this these ideas or these claims
probes that were going to the dark side of the moon to map the dark side of the moon and they were asking the head of NASA if we're going to be doing the same thing sending probes to the dark side to find map it and figure stuff out the same way the Chinese are doing it and he said no we have no reason to do that
So you're saying that the dark side of the moon is not always dark.
But the same side of the moon always faces the other way.
We will initiate decryption of traffic for possible content and block access as mandated by the Republic Act number 9775 or the anti-child policy.
Whenever I think of technology, I always like, we've talked about it before, but since the iPhone came out in 2006 or whatever, there really hasn't been anything like that moment since. People, they've just added on to it ever since it came out, right? Like, make it brighter, make the battery last longer, do all this stuff. And we've started from... That was like square one.
What do people say to you when you're rubbing shoulders with some of these Silicon Valley big shots that are like balls deep in companies like Apple and Facebook, social media companies? Like what is their initial reaction to what you're doing?
And they've just extrapolated from that. They've never like done a hard reset on a new piece of technology with like a new goal behind it or like a new vision. And what you've done is created this technology that's foundational in health. And it's the goal of it is to keep you healthy. For people that don't know who you are, explain your background and how you decided to come up with this thing.
I was kind of shocked when Jack Cruz told me that out of all the contributing factors to all the diseases and cancers and obesity and diabetes and the stuff in the US, he thinks that food is like second or third on the rung as far as like key contributors to this stuff. He thinks that the light is the number one factor for all these diseases
this explosion of diseases that are in our country he thinks that because people not only because the light is addictive and it's like you said a dopamine slot that's great dopamine slot machine and it's keeping people stuck on these screens and keeping them up late at night and keeping them distracted and keeping them in this sympathetic state exactly
that it combined with the fact that they're not outside they're staying inside all the time is what's doing this and i i got on my phone and my laptop i got all the apps jack had to like make the screen red and i noticed i've already noticed a huge difference like i'm waking up at like i used to like have to drag my carcass out of bed at 7 a.m now i'm like wide awake at 6 30 and
And I've noticed it because I'm laying in bed at night with my phone and it's like fully read. And I'll try to I'll scroll through Instagram or like check my emails or my messages. Ten minutes in, I'm just done. I can't do it anymore. Literally like falling asleep. And when normally without that, with the regular light on the screen, I would probably stay up till 1 a.m.
So there's definitely a huge difference.
I feel the same way. Even when I go to third world countries where there's not normal everyday conveniences that we have in the modern world here, where there's not traffic lights on every corner, where you basically have to pull up to an intersection and look everywhere. look at people to make sure like, okay, I'm going right. Or like, you're not going to kill me.
You have to actually stay alive without using traffic lights and stop signs and, and all this stuff. It keeps you like in a, in a, um,
an active state of mind where you're like always like fight or flight you're trying to figure out your way around and like instead of getting in the car going down the street stopping at the stoplight scrolling on your phone going to the grocery store filling your car like it kind of i feel like society in general with how convenient everything is is sort of like compounding onto all of this stuff and making us making us slower and fatter and dumber
he's pulling it up on his daylight computer right now. We got a little shot. I can show you how it works. I think so. Cool, man.
Okay.
It's spot on.
Do you think people in Silicon Valley and people that work at these giant tech companies are aware of this? Is there anyone who's aware of this? And if they are, what do you think, what is their view on it?
Is that real?
Steve Jobs, co-founder of Apple, did not allow his children to use iPads or other technology at home. Wow. In his 2011 interview at the New York Times, he said that we don't allow iPads in the home. We think it's too dangerous for them, in effect. And he recognized the iPad's addictive nature and believed it would be difficult for children to resist the allure. Wow. Oh, dude. Wow. Holy shit. Yep.
And Gates did not allow his children cell phones until they were 14 years old. Prohibit them during meals and before bed. Wasn't there something though? Did you hear about the, I don't know if it was a study or if it was an article that came out about surgeons that played video games were like 90% better at like performing surgery. They might've even been brain surgeons. Can you find a, yeah.
So what's the background? Video games have become extensively integrated in popular culture. Anecdotal observations of young surgeons suggest that video game playing contributes to performance... It contributes to performance excellence in laparoscopic surgery. Training benefits for surgeons who play video games should be quantifiable.
The hypothesis is, is there a potential link between video game play and surgical skill? and suturing. And I guess, can you go down to the result? Yeah, yeah. Past video game play in excess of three hours a week correlated with 37% fewer errors and 27% faster completion. Overall Top Gun score was 33% better for video game players and 42% better if they played more than three hours a week.
How fucking wild is that shit, dude? You got to create a video game console.
Right.
Video game is not, like playing a video game is not like scrolling mindlessly through social media. It's way different. Exactly.
Has no one tried to buy you out or silence you just to shut this down? Like Apple coming, Hey Anjan, here's a $10 million. Just go away.
Have you heard of him?
Like they wanted to buy it, like basically take it and you walk away. Yeah.
But we got a bigger mission here. So, so who are some of the people that are taking you seriously? Um, Other than Jack. How'd you meet Jack, by the way?
So this is essentially – so from what I can pick up from this is it looks like when you're reading text on it or you're looking at any sort of graphics, it looks like – yeah, it's like one of those Kindles or the –
describe what's the other one called the it looks like a kindle paper light right where it looks like real ink on there but you can essentially zoom in and zoom out and move around like a hundred times faster than you can on any of those kindle e-ink tablets yeah so the big breakthrough here is basically normal computers they're fast you can do your email you can do your docs you can do everything on yes and it's your question of like who's into this or who likes this right um
And this looks for people that are watching this. You can see it. It looks great right now. We're in this. This is kind of a dimly lit podcast studio. But if you go outside, it pops like ten times more and looks like the contrast in the text. It just brightens up when you're in the sunlight.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but Early on when Apple was making iPads and iPhones, there were companies that were competing to figure out what type of screen technology they were going to use. They didn't know if they were going to do the emissive or the reflective, right? And this goes back to Japan.
There was a company in Japan, I think, that had the reflective stuff and it ended up not working out.
Yeah.
Had there ever been any like legit studies or like placebo controlled trials on people with iPhone screens and iPad screens and like people who don't do it or like, have there ever been any like actual measurable comparisons on like how this shit actually affects us?
So it's something to do with not just the light, but us, it's like turning off our frontal cortex, right? Like keeping us in that sympathetic. So us being in that sympathetic state, sitting there and just scrolling on a phone, it's essentially, it's like similar to being Like you're kind of asleep, but you're not.
And when that's a... People... When that affects your breathing, I guess like... I guess you wouldn't notice it. But... How was that... We just assume it's normal. How was that discovered?
Dude, there's people out there who are so addicted to VR. They literally like go home from work and they strap into that headset helmet for like hours until like the wee hours of the morning.
And like live in this alternate universe where they're like playing Sims and playing like house, I guess, in VR with other people doing shit, like going to strip clubs, getting lap dances, like basically like Grand Theft Auto, but in VR. And like, I can't imagine how much worse that's gotta be.
Yeah.
Yeah. It's almost like, you know, the most logical, the most logical way to innovate from the a keyboard and like buttons is to create this screen that you can interact with and touch. And that was like the iPhone one, right? That I remember when that thing came out, I don't know if you're, do you remember, did you get one? Yeah. That was so mind bendingly amazing.
Like that thing blew my fucking, my world apart. Like seeing that that thing existed, being able to hold that and like text people by doing on a screen, scrolling, scrolling. That was like, boom, And it was like from there, that was the start of it. It was like, we, it's kind of like the combustion engine, right?
Like we, once you create the first combustion engine, you just expand on that and extrapolate on that and keep making it better and better until you have like a Lamborghini or a Ferrari or something. But like, to create something completely on a separate timeline or something, a completely separate technology, like anti-gravity, you're not going to get to anti-gravity from combustion engines.
So like, it's going to take, it's going to take something so crazy and like a, like a ground roots movement or like some sort of, something big would have to happen to compel society or silicon valley or all these companies to sort of jump ship to a whole nother a whole nother like goal of what they're doing with technology. Right.
Because like right now they're combustion engines and like, here you are trying to create anti-gravity. You're, you can't, there's no bridge, right? Like there's no bridge from what Apple's doing to what you're doing right here. Like you said before, like they, how can you release an iPad health, uh, when every single piece of technology you ever released relies on this blue light stuff.
It's kind of like, it's kind of intuitive. So, so yeah, that's kind of just like gets back to my question of who, like what kind of people in that world are like seeing the light, no pun intended here. And like, it's like, wow, you know, like maybe this is something that we really have to start taking seriously and start investing like tons of money into.
And that's kind of the worst parts of, that's like the worst part of capitalism, right? It's because you, it's such a big machine that's all reliant on profit and money and these board, the board that basically lives in charge of the biggest investors of these companies that like all they care about is the P and L statement. And The profits and are they going to go public?
And then like from then on out, you just have people that are accountable to them that are just trying to climb the ladder and get a promotion and get a raise like none of these people are going to.
walk out into the middle of the square and you know say that everything's fucked everything's wrong we need to like turn the ship around because that's gonna it'd be too late you're gonna yeah it'd be too well not only would be too late but you also would be sacrificing yourself and your own career and you know putting food on the table for yourself and your family so it's like
I don't know how you turn that ship around.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Familiar with him?
Well, what Michael Masters kind of explains, he's an anthropologist. So the way I understood it is that he's explaining how if you go look at primates, Early primates, right? They have these big bodies, these small bulging forward foreheads, these big mouth, chin, jaw lines down here. And then as they progress, they start to look more and more like...
Right. The idea there of technology and being able to use computing and computing power to be able to make ourselves more efficient, to get more shit done is great until like the biggest downfall is the screens. Like you can't have computers without screens.
what we look today, we look more like baby chimps. Like when a pimp is first born, it's got like more of like like sits up straight. It's got kind of a bigger head, more proportionate with the body. And that's a phenomenon called pedomorphism. The idea is. The farther down the timeline of evolution you get, The adults look more like the babies of the ancestors or the children of the ancestors.
So I guess his theory is that in 100,000 years to a million years, if we were to survive, he thinks we would look like those things on that book right there with the big eye and the big head and the little muscleless bodies.
You know what's also crazy is there's lots of documented cases where these things came down and talked to children at schools and told them to beware of technology. Technology is going to end up killing you guys. Yeah, the Ariel School in Zimbabwe. Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah, dude. But what are they talking about technology? There's so much.
Are they talking about atom bombs, thermonuclear bombs? Are they talking about screens?
Right. Do you buy into... Jack's idea that this is like a, a real MK ultra two 5.0 mind control thing where they basically, they know they're doing this to people and it's easier to control society. If everyone's got these screens in front of them all the time and they can manipulate what the truth is, because it's right now, like I've been saying this a lot lately that like,
I mean, sure, you can have other types of computers, and there's things like Neuralink and stuff like that that hasn't really been developed yet, but every computer has these screens that have this artificial emitting blue light, right? It's emitting. It's an emissive blue light that, as Jack Cruz pointed out to me, is part of the new Mind Control 5.0 MK Ultra that Silicon Valley is doing.
the truth is really, really flexible and slippery nowadays. Like it's really hard to know what's true with social media. And there's always news popping up on every single app on your phone all the time. And there's always different narratives to everything that's going on. So it's like, it's impossible. It's impossible to know what's real anymore.
It's like the question, can evil people, do evil people sleep good at night, right? They probably do because there's no angel on the other shoulder telling them what they're doing is wrong. It's probably like they're doing exactly what they think is the right thing to do.
and then you have people like i think hannah arendt was she the one that was she was a jewish woman who dated the nazi and the guy the nazi that she fell in love with i guess like operated a train transportation on a train and the guy was just taking orders he was just doing his job like and that everybody he knew did the same thing in his world so like is he evil
Yeah.
Excuse me. And... From documentaries like The Social Dilemma, where they talk about how the algorithms are basically incentivized just to keep us scrolling, to keep us seeing more advertisers and to keep us on the platforms longer. Combined with what the light is actually doing to our biology is pretty fucking scary. So how did you do this? How does this work?
Kind of like ethereal demons that are here to just destroy society.
It is happening whether they are real things or not.
What have you noticed since you... First of all, how long have you had your first prototype of this?
And since then, is this basically all you use for your computer? Do you ever have to use like a laptop or a MacBook or anything?
What have you or people that you've... sold this to? What kind of people are reaching out to you and trying to get their hands on these or even trying to invest with you?
Really? Yeah.
Oh, I know. I know what it's like. They turn into little devils. But with this, the idea is that if you were going to replace an iPad, can you get the iPad games on here?
Yeah.
So that's essentially the experience where the feedback that you've gotten from people who have given this to their kids, like they'll, at least when they want to get the iPad, they can get that fix of having that thing in their hands and playing on it or whatever. And then after an hour, they just, they're done with it. They put it down and go outside or go do something else.
Right.
Yeah. Really?
It's optimizing for productivity. No?
The point of... Well, it's optimizing for distractions, right? It's optimizing. I think you made the point. Before, you would go on a computer and try to research something and you end up with 100,000 tabs open and you're not getting anything done. But with this...
You can actually complete a task because you're not like, you're not sitting there and enjoying like, oh, this is so nice being in front of this thing. I can turn on my music here. If I get bored, I can go to Instagram real quick and come back. And then like, you're just like, you got to get it done.
It's like a nice, big, juicy bone-in ribeye with no sides. All you get is just the big juicy steak, no bullshit fries or fucking hamburgers or chicken nuggets, just the good shit.
And that's what this is.
Yeah, no, that's another big thing that I actually had an eye doctor on here telling me that like the the prevalence of myopia has like shot through the stratosphere in the last decade or two after ever since, like, you know, phone screens have become a thing. There's more there's more nearsighted people than ever.
So what has it been like? And I assume you didn't have a background in venture capital when you got into this. So what was that like for you, getting into that world and going out and trying to raise money for it?
You just get laughed out.
So how many have you created so far? Or how many have you guys shipped out?
And this is the one I got as part of the first batch?
Wow, dude. Yeah, I imagine there's got to be a lot of like hardcore early adopters to this.
It's just tinting over it, right?
What does the little fire thing do? Is that a little flame?
Oh, you can make it blue light?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a cool name.
Like maybe if you just stay awake a little bit, like an extra hour, get a little bit more reading done. You just put a little blue in there.
Have you ever met with RFK and said, RFK, say we got to get these things mandated? We got to get the... The anti-blue light, like, you know, because he's like the big health guy working with Trump now, so supposedly we're going to make America healthy again.
They're in schools now. You know that? They have laptops, literally, and iPads for kids, for literal kindergartners.
It's crazy to me that, well, I mean, yeah, it is just crazy that no, like... Serious institution has come out and actually done any kind of extrapolation hypothesis on what this is going to do to human beings in 100 years. What are the downstream effects of this? For aliens. It's fucking scary, dude. Why don't you give us sort of like a...
That sounds like paper.
And you can get pretty much any app on here. And you can import your note thing, like the one you use and Obsidian or Scrivener, I'm sure.
Okay.
But they're in black and white. Imagine if every single person on earth automatically got these instead of their regular computers. Yeah. Media companies would be going out of business left and right.
The ad model falls apart and then I wouldn't have a podcast anymore. I'd have to go get a real job.
You have to get better.
So what do you want to do? What is going to be the next thing? Is this going to be a version 2.0? What are you currently doing now? to other than you're actively still raising money, I'm sure, right? But as far as the hardware and the technology, what is your goal?
And the, we were talking about the Shogun documentary too. And the guy's name is Ajin, Ajin-san. And then you said some of this technology comes from Japan.
Yeah, they've built this amazing walled garden around Apple products, which is fucking genius. It's brilliant.
I've been thinking about trying to switch phones.
Right. I have literally on my phone, I have every photo I've taken for the last 10 years, which gets to whenever I update my phone, it just sucks it right into the new phone. So I have photos I took in 2010.
Yeah.
How much harder would it be to make a phone like this?
Oh, that's the next thing?
I imagine it's got to be crazy because you've got to be able to connect it with the cellular providers and... like, text messaging apps and stuff like that. I imagine it's quite a bit different than just, like, something that's connected to Wi-Fi.
Well, the new one, with the new update, you can actually, like, see when people on Androids are typing, and you can see when they read your messages. It's getting closer, yeah. So...
Do you think you would include the ability to make it like with full spectrum color and all that stuff? Or would you keep it kind of like...
I've ever thought about, like, I imagine other countries might be more interested in implementing shit like this, like earlier than the U S would. Well, the U S is finally catching up, right?
Did you know about how TikTok regulates their platform in China versus here?
After I think it's after after like 6 p.m., you can only get educational content on TikTok in China. Oh, wow. And here it's there's no limits on it at all.
And I think it's like so after like between like 6 and 10, it's educational stuff. And then I could be wrong here, but I want to say that like between like 11 p.m. and like 6 a.m., you just can't use it at all. That says a lot about, especially if they're the ones that created TikTok, right?
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Yeah, right? Isn't that crazy? And there's so much like, you know, even with stuff that you get on TikTok. I mean, this isn't just TikTok, but it's like the way the way stuff is shared on social media, too. It's like the most outrageous stuff is the stuff that naturally gets shared more and goes viral more.
Like, we recently had a podcast where we had this dude who's a former CIA officer, and we were watching some news story on TikTok about China implementing these exploding helmets for their Navy pilots. So, like, if a pilot who's on a mission, like, flying their jet in China decides to go rogue or do something that they're not supposed to do, the Chinese military – God damn it. Excuse me.
the Chinese military has the ability to make their helmet explode, to kill them. And it was a TikTok. I'm like, I saw it on TikTok. We found the actual TikTok. And then we like did some more research. Like we dug into it and found out it was completely a fake story.
So like, you know, if you get rid of that, that whole element of social media and like, and how it, how just like the, the most outrageous stuff gets shared more. I wonder how that would affect people. just information in general. You know what I mean? The dissemination of information.
Because obviously we're flooded by all this misinformation and disinformation and strategic disinformation, strategic deception. And then even in Silicon Valley, you have lots of companies like Palantir, which is in Silicon Valley. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but that's Peter Thiel. And I forget the other guy's name. But there was this other guy who's the CEO of Palantir, Alex Karp.
And he's like the super progressive liberal guy. But he he in his New York Times interview, he says quoted saying the idea of saving lives and ending lives is very interesting to me. You know, he's like, if I have this company, this super powerful technological company that I can integrate into the world and the U.S.
military is going to give me billions of dollars to do it, I'm going to take advantage of that. And, you know, he believes in obviously in technology. United States supremacy over the rest of the world. And at the same time, he like portrays himself as being this really progressive and liberal guy. And he spends best friends with Peter Thiel, which is interesting.
So like, it just like, like what Jack said, incentives dictate outcomes. So like, it's just interesting how the military and companies like in QTEL, the CIA are so involved with so many tech companies and, and, you know, the foundation of it is spying on people and taking and getting all the information of all the citizens and what they're doing at all times.
So you, you have, the first batch was 5,000 tablets. Yeah. And how many orders do you have? Well, sold out. We completely sold out, uh,
And where are you, like, building them and assembling them?
Japan's, dude, they're always on the cutting edge of shit. There was something that came out yesterday that Japan's trying to create a wooden satellite. Did you see that? No.
they're they're actually they built a satellite made of wood yeah and they're they're gonna put it into orbit and they're gonna i think they're gonna let it orbit the earth for six months to see how um how the wood can withstand and uh something to do with yeah there you go click on the first one if they can make a satellite out of wood we have no excuse that we can't make computers out of what in natural materials dude imagine if you made one of these made out of wood yeah
Yeah, what does it say? What's the first thing it says? Yeah, the world's first wooden satellite built by Japanese researchers was launched into space already on Tuesday in an early test using timber in lunar and Mars exploration. Developed at Kyoto University and home builder...
sumitomo forestry will be flown to the international space station on on a spacex mission and later released into orbit around 400 kilometers or 250 miles above earth named after the latin word for wood the palm-sized ligno sat it's a palm-sized satellite
um is tasked to demonstrate the cosmic potential of renewable materials uh as humans explore so yeah i guess the idea is when it comes back and reenters the atmosphere it'll just be burned up by the atmosphere so you won't have any kind of waste or anything you want to go and retrieve it those satellites still burn up so yeah wild shit man Well, dude, thanks. Thanks for coming. This is fun.
And thank you for the daylight computer. I'm so psyched to use this thing, man. Thanks for having me on. I feel like if... I've been loving this rabbit hole, this light rabbit hole.
Yeah, hopefully we can stay in our human form now and not evolve into the little gray aliens.
That's cool shit, man. Well, thanks again. Obviously, I'll link all your stuff below so people can find out more about it.
Awesome, dude. All right. Good night, everybody.
it's it's a bold move man to be able to do something like that that's got to take i mean especially to be able to design a whole new computer i can't imagine that's something that a lot of people in silicon valley have the aspirations to do i would imagine just from being an outsider i would imagine and you can correct me if i'm wrong if you're in silicon valley
It's kind of like you're bogged down in all the small day-to-day things, designing apps, designing UIs, optimizing different things like with advertising or operating systems and stuff like that, or like making things better, improving on past products.
I can't imagine there's a lot of people out there who are like zooming out and seeing the forest for the trees and trying to figure out how can we make something new, right?
Thanks for coming, dude. I'm excited to talk to you. We were just talking before Steve started rolling. Your name, your name, that doesn't come from Japan though, right? No, it's Indian. It's Indian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The monkey god, Hanuman.
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Yeah.
Right, yeah, exactly.
Oh, really?
Oh, wow.
Sounds amazing.
What a clever idea.
Interesting. I would have imagined you would have done it thousands of times.
Okay. That would explain it.
Oh, wow. That's interesting.
Oh, okay.
Oh, interesting.
That's fast. Are they still doing it?
Yes, I think that's what it was.
That's wild.
Right.
Whoa.
Hmm. 3,000 years ago.
Like a thousand AD?
I thought it was written a thousand AD. Maybe I'm, what am I thinking of?
Tenths, the Hebrew Bible...
Right, correct, yeah.
Right, right.
I got to tell him about this. Maybe it'll help him.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's what he was explaining to me.
Oh, wow. Really?
I heard about them working on that. I had no idea it was out. That's what I understand. Can you see if it's out? Oh, I had no fucking clue this was out.
And I think the elephant died?
So hi Danny, nice to meet you. Hi Rick, pleasure to meet you too as well.
Right. Yeah.
And then you throw them right back in.
Really?
Yeah.
Right.
No.
Oh, I have heard of this.
Yeah. Yeah. With this new, those experiences were in one afternoon. Yeah.
Oh, really?
Oh, my gosh.
Have you ever studied Eastern religions?
Yeah.
Right after this happened?
Holy shit.
Oh, God, that's crazy.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yes, for sure.
Fewer distractions.
Oh, and I just joined. Oh, that's Amazon, Steve.
Oh, did you? Yeah.
What a great cover.
In the late morning.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
80?
Hmm.
Wow.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Okay.
Wow.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Right.
Oh, okay.
Wow.
Right, right, right.
Right.
Really?
Yeah.
Oh, that's great.
Oh, okay.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
No.
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so this was five months ago so i'm pretty sure there's like at this point it's kind of like this little subcultural thing and people just this communities are forming around it people kind of talk about it all that stuff yeah so i think this would be a good point maybe we should show the trailer sure let's let's show that to people steve can you pull it up um it's called the discovery right just type in the discovery dmt on youtube you'll find it all right let's see what we got here all right full screen that bad boy by the way i want to mention that pause for a second i'm sorry
So what gave you the idea to throw this, first of all, create this diffracted laser and shine it on the wall while you were on DMT?
Yes.
That part of it was kind of like an after part. That was like an after effect of it. Cause like originally after I was at like my third hit, I was starting to like feel a little wobbly. And then I did a fourth hit and I was like, I felt like the rocket lifting off. Right. And then the fifth hit, I was like almost gone.
And then by the time I inhaled that fifth hit, I just like right out of my body, just shot right on top of my body. And I was gone. I was just catapulted through another universe filled with light cluster, like different color lights and spectrums and patterns. Yeah.
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few times i did open my eyes though it was uh it was almost unbearable i was almost scared like when i when i opened my eyes and i saw you like bursting with light and i saw like peripheral like lights coming in the tv i couldn't even see the tv because it was just like it was just light like and the overwhelming sound that kind of like drone the weird sort of like droning buzzing sound yeah
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So it started with this initiation of like a very realistic set of experiences that I put it beyond any shadow of possibility that this is real.
You're talking about people who experience this thing where they always see the same numbers all the time everywhere they go. Exactly. There's something significant that happens in their lives where there's a number correlated with it and then somehow that follows them for the rest of their lives everywhere they go.
Yes.
Is there any other drug you can take where everyone experiences the same things or very, very similar things? Not to this extent, no.
The way you did it too, like the way you helped guide us through it and by doing the Wim Hof breathing up front and like timing out all of the hits and understanding what to expect, like you really made it a super enjoyable and comfortable experience for So, first of all, thanks for doing that, man. That was a really cool thing for me to experience.
Yeah. Like the finder thing.
Yeah. Yeah. Got it.
The second one looks like 03.
081802.
gasket number is that it the second one american physical society present this one abstract the prospect and stereo collaborations present but click on it let's see what the paper actually is okay
Okay.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Got it.
So maybe that 081804 is like a lot number and the 128 is just like the one paper that's a part of it or something.
Exactly. It doesn't work. Exactly.
So the idea is if you can do that while you're not on DMT?
While you're doing it.
Okay.
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What is that you're looking at?
Uh-huh.
Look what it's actually reflecting.
Your pants? Yeah. Whoa.
How did you know to get, like, right up close to the wall and, like, look into it?
Sure.
Yeah. What were their reactions? What were their initial reactions to it? You're saying, hey, I smoked DMT, I looked inside this laser, and I'm seeing... No, I never got to that.
Okay.
Yeah. I've noticed. That's funny. You know, because the, because the best comments that people like the most go, go to the very top when you're looking at it. Oh, I see. I see. And they're ranked from like the most people can relate to it or maybe the most, the funniest. Got it. So I feel like that's, yeah, you're right.
There's a very, a very different sort of attitude and vibe to the comments, uh, comment sections and the way people engage with those platforms.
Yeah, it's got to be so much different when you're stuck there for hours and you have to face it and you can't escape, right? That's a separate subject, but yeah. At least last night, I knew this was going to be over very soon.
Thank you. What do you think you're seeing inside that laser? Or what are you seeing? First of all, what does it look like? And what do you think it is?
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But when you're doing it with the ayahuasca and you're wherever, in the jungle, and you're going to be dealing with this for three or four or five hours, that's a totally different beast.
from alien technology provided technical illustration, symbols, descriptions, and anti-gravity drones quote that claimed were based on extraterrestrial designs with symbols allegedly functioning as a form of self executing code embedded in the aircraft's structure. Right. There's been, um, there's been UFO, um,
Alleged a UFO crashes and debris that have been found that do have inscriptions on them. Have you ever heard of the There's been like UFO crashes.
Even Roswell was one of them where they allegedly they have Pieces of debris of these crafts that they're finding that have inscriptions in them I need to see it because I've done people tell me all kinds of things and Steve type in type in do another tab type in Roswell crash
Yep. Um, in, uh, what would you use symbols? Symbols. Yeah. Try that.
Images. Okay. Are these them?
This is not what I remember. Keep going. Maybe zoom out. Oh, yeah. So I've seen these. See where that piece of metal is right there on the bottom?
Okay.
Okay.
So this is what you're seeing?
Keep going through, you'll see.
Last night after I... basically came back into my body after like the most extreme part of that trip that was kind of like more in reality things were obviously like i was experiencing more of like a three-dimensional world the edges were crazy um but i wasn't like hallucinating or anything i wasn't like seeing things moving or whatever and i went over there and i looked into the laser
And I looked through the laser and it's clear that you could see a pocket of space. So we shot it on a door, a white door. And behind that door, there was a very obvious pocket of space behind the laser. So I could see like a cavity behind the door. And what I saw was essentially... The best way I can describe it is like millions and millions of little gears all connected and spinning.
And they were so tiny, they were like specks, like static. It was like millions and millions and billions of these gears just turning and all connected to each other.
Fractal pattern.
interesting why why is that just when I say the meeting the devil I mean just like confronting my deepest darkest thoughts or like the deepest darkest potential realities you know like like Mike was explaining last night when he actually ate those four cookies he said that he was just like in the fetal position in the corner of his hotel room for like eight hours and just thinking about all like the worst case scenario about everything
You know, just like in this state of fear constantly. And that's what, that's what I always go to when I go too far on like a marijuana gummy. Interesting.
Let's say we would have... Well, technically, it technically is a hallucination, right? Because our brains create this. There's like the... What Gallimore talked about was like the brain filter hypothesis is that our brains are filtering... reality into a way for us to be able to survive and get through the day and to function as human beings.
Kind of like what we were talking about last night with evolution, how evolution's... Correct.
Yeah. No, I don't mean like meet Satan. I mean, I mean just like, just go to a place that is what I would imagine hell is.
So it goes into this like... And we didn't sort of climb a ladder. We didn't start from point A and gradually get ourselves to...
point x right we're just jumping from a to x so we're not building that understanding or that that scaffolding if you will that's a great point that's exactly what it is it's just kind of surprising and it's an island of information versus versus a map of information right exactly so
You can even move the laser and it stays still.
You see what I'm saying? Yeah. So what else did Andrew say about this specifically? Did he have any, like... like suggestions of other ways you could sort of try to experiment with this or corroborate it?
How long does it stay there for you after you smoke the DMT?
I broke my brain with drugs. That's pretty metal. Most people who have lost their minds never find their way back to tell the story. I was lucky. Not only did I find my way back with lots of help. i found something more more mind than i know what to do with i no longer believe insane things but the way my brain works has fundamentally changed and for the better
Have you thought of any other possible ways you could introduce different elements into this? Like you were talking earlier about magnets or any other ways to change the experiment to see if you can see something else? How do you plan to push this to the next level?
Yeah. No, no, no. You did a fantastic job. I wasn't expecting all of that sort of like warm-up to it. So, I thought that was great. It's kind of... been crazy to process over the last eight hours. When I used to think of DMT, I thought of it more of something you would get from like a marijuana gummy or like to the extreme, but just for a short period of time, right?
Have you gotten any people that you've talked to, has there been any reasonable pushback to what you're saying or someone trying to explain this away in a way? All the time, yeah. And what has been the most compelling argument that you've heard?
Yes.
which is the thing i said like and they're saying so if you just if you're sober and you look into that laser you see those speckles right that kind of uh staticky stuff yeah and um it's not necessarily moving in a way that it would move if you were just on any sort of hallucinogenic drug so if you're if i'm looking at you and i'm taking dnt you're gonna be moving around there's gonna be colors it's gonna be animated right so they're saying that it
Basically makes sense that if you're looking at it in this state, of course, these speckles are going to be animated and look like this.
the cash value of it like you would have to be able to do something with it understand something with it well not necessarily there's lots of research projects that go on there's lots of not not as much nowadays a lot of it's secret but there's i mean there's like blue sky research right people that just dump billions of dollars not maybe not billions but like millions and millions of dollars into things that they don't know there's going to be like like just experiment like experiments that
Um, trying to figure out what happens with things or, or developing technology or doing experiments like remote viewing is an example where they don't know if there's going to be, there's never been like a proven, uh, result that's profitable from it. Right. But it's worth throwing. X amount of millions of dollars towards it to see what happens.
Just in case there's a 1% chance we can learn something about it that will put the United States in a dominant position on a global scale.
Yeah.
Right. Yeah, right. So what is the point of Gallimore's study that he's doing, the Extended State DMT, the DMT-X?
And you're going to neglect what's happening here at the same time.
Dude, last night was one of the wildest experiences I've ever had. I'm glad to hear that. It was fun to watch you. Wow, dude. I can finally say I've done DMT. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Not biological... Do you think they evolved somewhere else the same way we evolved here?
Okay. Well, first of all, do you think that Do you think that it's possible that when we evolve in 100,000 years from now, we become so advanced, when we have a better understanding of physics, when we have a better understanding of what's going on in these DMT realms and all this, and our understanding of the universe expands?
Do you think that it's going to be possible that we are the ones that are simulating these sort of simulations with people like us interacting in them and being controlled?
you're invincible like that that's that's the only thing that you should care about ever right yeah that was a another another weird thing that I felt last night right after I got blasted out of my body after my soul blasted out of my carcass was that was the like the feeling of Losing touch with everything in reality, like losing touch with like everything I'm attached to in the real world.
Yeah, you don't think we're controlled. If there is some sort of higher intelligence out there that created our reality or we're living in some sort of simulation that was created by another civilization, you're saying that they wouldn't want to... control what we're doing because we would be more of like a science experiment to them. They want to let us loose and see what happens. Bingo.
but no but but i am claiming that i know that they're real and i am claiming that the code is real okay that's the only things i'm claiming they are real because you you can say that they're real because you're experiencing them the same way you're experiencing this cup of coffee on the table and you yes and me yes our brain our brain creates and and projects what is real right all of this is essentially a hologram and that's created in our brain
For people that don't know, what is the holographic principle?
Right. And just like having the very core of my existence just catapulted through the universe. That was it was such a wild, wild experience. How real it feels. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
That's fucking crazy, man. Yeah. So you were saying earlier also that you think there's something big coming?
um okay so to open this up you have basically found a tear in the fabric of reality you found a way under the map so as people that play video games would say i guess that's a really good way of putting it yeah yeah yeah can you first of all explain exactly what you discovered and how you discovered it. And then we'll kind of like, we'll sum that up.
Okay.
Have you noticed this in people that... that use DMT often or, or use psychedelics more often. Do you, do you, do you ever, do you think there's a fundamental shift that happens in the brain or in consciousness or in, um, like, do you think it makes people smarter? So I've heard people say that. That's too broad of a statement.
I've heard people that use DMT say it helped them think better and it made them smarter.
Then we'll like start from the beginning and then go through a linear fashion of how this all happened.
Yeah, but that's also millions of years of evolution have gotten us to where we are now and the way we act in the world.
Isn't it interesting? I don't know how familiar you are with the classical period and ancient Greeks and the different mystery cults that there were that were basically dedicated to doing drugs in antiquity. And that was response. And then I had a gentleman in here who basically did a he did his Ph.D. dissertation on the use of drugs and antiquity with the Romans and the Greeks using drugs.
What's his name again? I'm in Hillman. OK. And he basically discovered that recreational drugs were everywhere back in the day. And he believed that the use of drugs in antiquity were responsible for the explosion of intellect and art and philosophy and creativity and science, democracy, the scientific method, all that stuff.
And, you know, he what he does is he basically goes back and he reads all these ancient texts, these plays, the philosophy, the medical texts. And by reading the medical texts is how he discovered all this evidence of drug use and drug experimentation back then. And it seems like it seems like, you know, since then, 200, 300 B.C.
until now, it's you know, we went through the Dark Ages from 1400 to like or from I think it was from. 900 to 1400 essentially until we got to the enlightenment and all of that sort of dissipated and stagnated and went away.
But it feels like we were on a different trajectory in that period of time during that classical period when we had people like Plato and Socrates and all of these just gigantic minds that that were responsible for creating some of the things that we still use today, like the scientific method?
Yeah, all these guys were persecuted and literally executed and sent to prisons for this stuff. Which ones, back then you mean? Like Socrates and some of these guys, some of these people, yeah.
And if you believe in, and depending on what your beliefs are on Jesus, you know, literally executed for being some sort of prophet.
Yeah. Do you think it's possible that AGI is going to save us? Yes. Really? Yes. I think it's our only way out. You don't think that it's going to essentially render us obsolete when it gets merged with stuff like quantum computing and basically we're basically meaningless to them? No. Do you know why? Why? Because it's us.
Like this wasn't, and I've always, whenever I take gummies, sometimes I have like bad trips, like my worst fears creep into my thoughts. This was not like that. This was just smiles. Like I just couldn't stop smiling.
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Yes. You can't escape what you are. Right. But I think the scariest part about it is that until it becomes its own thing, that somebody with nefarious intentions is going to be the one that controls that. Sure. No guarantees. Just like with the beginning of Google's AI. What was it called again? What was Google's AI? Whatever it was. Oracle? Is that what it was? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
When like they injected all of this woke stuff into like you search for Julius Caesar and they'd pull up like a black Julius Caesar or whatever, like a 300 pound overweight black Julius Caesar just to like inject some sort of idea. That's what I'm saying. Like, how do you know?
Like the scariest part is human beings in our ape form with the way we think now injecting that into something that's so powerful.
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amount of people that are focusing on this stuff full-time fully focused on it are there's so few people that are doing that and the majority and the people that like if you want to look at silicon valley and the people that are working at these companies developing things like working on uh ai and chat gpt and and or even all these social media companies that are the big basically they have more money than most countries in the world sure um
They are focusing all of their attention on the I mean, first of all, these are huge corporations, giant bureaucracies of people with their own personal aspirations, trying to climb their ranks into a company to make more money, to please people that sit on top of this board, right? Members of the board.
And essentially their only goal is to get people to spend more time on their platforms, to be stuck in their lizard brains, mindlessly scrolling through pointless content for them to create more money. Exactly. for the wrong meat, like the wrong ends. So the only answer is- So all of this human power and human potential is aimed at the completely wrong target.
Yeah. But then you have people like Bill Gates that think they want to do that. They want the globalists.
And frogs are gay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. That's a great way to end this, man. Sure. Very profound. Thanks again. This was fascinating. It was amazing. I'm going to have to watch it like three more times to fully understand it.
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That's really cool. And you're actually having conversations like a podcast with people on here.
man like we just didn't really listen in a while and I'm so excited about everything that we're doing together so yeah that's really cool man well thank you again for coming down and talking to me and thank you for showing us that experience last night that was fucking life changing you got it brother cool alright goodnight everybody
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Yeah.
Wow. Wow.
2022.
Why?
Okay.
Why?
Oh, wow.
So the poliovirus dies, but the virus lives.
19.
Yeah.
511.
No.
57.
Good Lord.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, wow.
Wow.
I can't say it. Really? Yeah, it's too dark. Yeah, it's really funny.
Yeah, yeah. I agree with that.
2020.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yep.
1990?
It was, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's kind of complicated. It's not that interesting.
Yeah.
There you go.
There you go.
Go, take a leak. Let's take a quick break. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, cool.
Yes.
Maybe it might be Charizard. I don't know.
Yep. Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He really is.
Oh, yeah.
They say it's live. We are placing people into housing and making sure they get the services they want. So our goal is to increase the NYPD's presence and dedicate outreach teams. Place over 70 New Yorkers in shelter. Seize over 650 of those pesty, illegal pedicabs. And issue 6,500 pedicab-related violations. I think it's just clickbait.
112,000.
And you're in Wyoming.
Whoa.
Do you think? I think so, yeah. In 222 years, the pole will be flipped completely.
If it's moving at that... Yeah.
Well, the planet is 6,000 miles across. Is that right?
uh yeah so i mean i've lit tons of studios it just takes like hundreds and hundreds thousands of watts like so if i were to use so for the key light back there i'd probably use a 2k or a couple 1ks uh like minimum i'd probably do like a like yeah probably a 2k or maybe and they get really hot right
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That's amazing.
And is it true that the, the, the variation in the human genome, there's like, there's not a lot of variation.
Now, is that – just a quick side note on the genome stuff. Is that normal for most mammals?
Because I was listening to something where you were talking about like essentially if you took our genome, if you extrapolate into the past, it basically means we came from like 10,000 humans.
And there was like a bottleneck in the population, in the human population? Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, there's also people that study climate change through the end of the ice age around like 11,800 years ago when there was this Younger Dryas impact hypothesis where these comets came and hit the North American ice sheet and wiped out all the megafauna here. But I mean that wouldn't be enough destruction and that wouldn't be enough to bottleneck the population down to 10,000.
You know, that's weird. I was just reading this book the other day about a guy who's a polygrapher in the CIA. And he decided, he wrote a book called The Secret Life of Plants.
He decided one day when he was bored in the office, he was looking at the plant. He's like, I'm going to try to polygraph this plant. And then he like hooked it up to the polygraph on the leaves. And then he was going to light it on fire. And then as soon as he lit the match, the thing went off the charts.
Yeah. Wild.
Yeah, right. Anyways, we were talking about the Human Genome Project. And you were explaining where we were with that.
How many different types of cancers?
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No, you're good. No, you're good.
I'm not familiar with what you're saying.
This is also how they figure out the sex of the baby early.
Right. How did you get involved in talking about and kind of like you essentially kind of like blew the whistle on something that was going on with the covid vaccines?
So, yeah, I watched that video where you were talking, speaking to a panel and you discovered something with the DNA vaccine. actually being aware. And you somehow got your hands on two expired vials of the Pfizer. Indeed.
Wow. No matter how you ingest it? No matter how you consume it?
And what was the case with when – so am I correct in saying you tried to publish these cannabis genomes on the internet and then something happened with that? Someone tried to block you from doing that? Yeah.
And that means, so if you're the one that publishes it, makes it public before anyone else, you essentially like own the common...
PCR is essentially like the no swab test that people are doing.
This was invented by Carey Mullis? Yes.
Great book. You should read his book. I've been wanting to. I've watched some interviews with him. He seems like a really cool dude. He is. He was a surfer.
And he hated Fauci.
What prompted you to first write the paper?
So basically, comparing how sloppy the PCR test would be to measure this, you assumed that they were going to be way off with the vaccine. Is that a good way to sum it up?
The people that died actually had lots of comorbidities, right? And the virus is basically like the final straw that broke the camel's back.
What? Yes. They were actually doing the tests on corpses.
They came anonymous. Who do you like? Who could it have been?
How would they get their hands on vaccine? They just work at a pharmacy or something.
I'm just trying to figure out like how they would have done that.
The vector that they use to manufacture. What do you mean by that?
The inserted gene is the spike. And what is the spike?
Okay.
I'm trying my best to keep up with you here.
Okay.
But they know this, right? They know that this is going to be in there.
And do they have a process to get rid of it?
Okay. How many mRNA vaccines do we have? We have Moderna and we have got Pfizer. I mean, other than the COVID.
So COVID was the first one we had.
So obviously they knew that this stuff was going to be in there because that was purposeful. You needed that to actually create it for it to replicate.
And essentially they didn't have a good enough protocol to get rid of it.
So is this the same story that Jack Cruz was telling us about SV40?
Okay. So essentially when Jack was in here, he was telling the story about how this guy named Alt Noschner was the one who created the polio vaccine. He famously went in front of a board of people or an auditorium full of people and injected his grandchildren with it. Nuts. And then one of them died and one of them like lost a limb or something crazy.
This was one of the only places that had the monoclonal antibodies that you could get.
And they found out that this SV40 came from, they were growing the vaccine on monkey, on monkey kidneys or something like that.
And there was like a lot of Simeon viruses, right?
And then number 40, for some reason, that one created these quote unquote turbo cancers in humans.
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10 picograms of DNA.
Okay.
And what is the thing? Do you the reason that they you say they hit purposely hid the SV40 in these vaccine vials from the FDA?
And what do you think the reason for hiding that? Do you think it's nefarious or do you think it's just intentional?
And do you think this was about money, just to save money?
Right. It's terrible. Every freaking kid running around here has a little vape pen that they run around – that they have in their car, in their pocket, at the gym they're hitting it. It's crazy.
I mean the fact that what you were just saying, how the FDA found that there was SV40 in there. Is that available online?
Yeah. That's a great shirt.
I think it says... SV40 Origins of Replication in mammalian cells?
I don't know. I was just trying to see if like there was any like public statement from the FDA about this.
So this is it, Health Canada SV40 and ATIPS, Part 2, September to October 2023.
Is this on the FDA's website or anything or any of like the WHO website or any of these regulatory?
Steve, just try to find it on one of the websites. Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah. Weren't you just in Germany doing this?
What are they saying? You can't see the signal in the epi?
Steve, I'm looking for like a – not a Substack article. I'm looking for like a report that you can find on one of these like government agency websites or something like that.
So what you were saying from your study on the cancer cells, sequencing the cancer cells, you were finding these things, these plasmids in the cancer cells, how much later? A year. A year later.
A year later. And then what does that mean? What does that mean for them? The fact that it's still in these cells, were these cells there prior or were these cells created? And then what does this mean for people that aren't vaccinated that are in proximity to these people?
And
So that essentially you're saying this SV40 turbo cancer would become contagious.
Why do you think that the U.S. had more deaths than any other country per capita?
And that's all with hemp products? Yeah, those are all coming through the hemp, the farm bill. But the stuff that you buy from like the dispensaries, that's actually not hemp. That's actual.
Remind me about what was going on with VAERS. There was some sort of trickery going on with that, right?
It's basically like people that got injured by these things, right?
It's underreported by 30-fold. And why do you think so?
And what were the statistics on VAERS during the pandemic?
Go up. The state surgeon general is notifying healthcare sector and public of substantial increase in vaccine adverse events. Reporting system bears from Florida after COVID-19 vaccine rollout. Okay, so it's the incidents from 2007 through like 2017. It's between 1000 to 2000. 2020 is 2400. And then in 2021, it's 41,473. And then in 2022, it's back down to 9000.
That's insane.
We should, we should look at that.
Right. And what is the connection? What is the correlation with people who did get myocarditis? Was there any sort of pattern there?
It doesn't turn out like you're, it's not like you're Walter white.
50% death rate is pretty substantial.
Yeah, but so... There you go.
Update on myocarditis. FDA. Okay, click on that. This came out in June 2022. Wow. Yeah, it took them a while. Two years ago. What is the summary of this? Go down.
Okay. What is the... Is there like a summary or like a... This is... It's just like a brochure. Keep going. Keep scrolling. You'll find...
Zoom in on the one with the chart on it, the red bars on it. Verified U.S. reports of... Two VAERS of myocarditis after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination among people ages 18 years and older following primary series and first booster by time to symptom onset and dose number. Okay, so it's saying one, two, three. That is the time to symptom onset. And the second column is verified reports.
One of the goofiest complaints that I heard was that people are saying, oh, now they're going to be at all the parks. I don't want to go to the playground with my kid and have some stoner sitting there in the park smoking his weed. I'm like, I talked to my friend, like my stoner friends, and they're like, if weed becomes legal recreationally, it's not going to change anything in my life.
So the most verified reports is...
They're just like, you think I'm just going to all of a sudden decide to go to the kid's playground to smoke weed? No, I smoke it on my couch. I don't want to go anywhere else.
And Jack said that aluminum ties into this story somehow.
And regarding these turbo cancers, these turbo cancers that take essentially less than a year from someone to get diagnosed with it, to be killed with it, for them to actually die. How prevalent has this been?
And like, are there any people that are actually doing hard research on these cancers that like, cause I know that lady, Jack was saying that lady, Susan, who was the CEO of YouTube, she, this happened to her.
There was also more drug overdoses.
People staying inside, not getting sunlight. Like all the things Jack talks about, right?
The stuff that Jack was saying about how these screens on all these devices basically hijack our brains and they keep us in a sympathetic state in our lizard brains.
And basically just... Hypothalamus.
Yeah. It makes sense how it would make us more compliant because we don't want to think anymore. It's just like this mindless act of...
of engaging stuff and getting this like like through these dopamine slot machines of these phones and stuff like that and and you know it's it's not just with the screens but it's like the screens are the most extreme example of it but if you think about it it's everywhere like even with like traffic you don't think about that people are on their phones in traffic waiting for the light to turn green press the gas now you have cars that do all of it for you right like it's
It's essentially gene therapy, though.
Yeah, we just had a guy on recently who was like hacked by some people who claimed they were Chinese dissidents and they were trying to save the world from the 5G virus. basically like how 5g was going to hijack these nanobots that were in the vaccines and be able to like control, control people's autonomy.
Find the doctor in, in Harvard. There's a doctor from Harvard who went to jail for actually working with China.
Yep.
Yeah, this is perfect. Read this.
Yeah, Department of Justice said the chair of Harvard University Chemistry and Chemical Biology Department and two Chinese nationals have been charged with connection to aiding the People's Republic of China. Charles Lieber, 60, chair of the Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology at Harvard University, was arrested this morning and charged with criminal complaint.
with one count of making a materially false, fictitious, and fraudulous statement. What? He will appear this afternoon before blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then it says the Chinese national. This is the guy – I'm not even going to try to say that.
Zhaosong Zeng, 30, a Chinese national arrested on December 10th, 2019 at Boston Logan Airport was charged in a criminal complaint with attempting to smuggle 21 vials of biological research to China.
Okay, according to the court documents, since 2008, Dr. Lieber, who has served as the principal investigator at the Lieber Research Group at Harvard University, which specializes in the area of nanoscience, has received more than $15 million in grant funding from the National Institute of Health and the DOD.
We were just having a great conversation about the amendment. I think it was three, the cannabis one. And I was telling you my understanding of it. The picture DeSantis painted about it was that there was one big company that was going to control all the weed. And this was somehow going to be bad. Yes, this is Trulieve.
He's so arrogantly talking about, you won't, you'll get a vaccine or you'll lose your job. The kids will get kicked out of school.
The judge said that they were told to lie about the SV-40 because of the- No, not SV-40.
I can't believe this SV-40 story isn't everywhere.
Has anybody else done these SV40 studies that you've done on these vaccines?
I don't know if there's photos, but in the Little Black Book, if you go to the actual Little Black Book website where you can look at all the screenshots of the book or the PDF scans of it, I think RFK's name was in there. He had like 10 or 12 phone numbers for him.
I'm a big fan of RFK, not to discount that, but that's fucking crazy.
Mountain and Doris Kamala.
So that's what you're talking about is these zero knowledge proofs.
Are you familiar or have you been paying attention to the Casey and Callie Means?
Yes.
Right. They kind of came out of nowhere and they were super popular.
It's a pharma whistleblower who's only talking about food and not so much about vaccines.
Do you think this is a situation where maybe they just don't want to go out of their lane? They want to stay in their lane with food and they don't want to be labeled with all these anti-vaxxers? Absolutely.
He's got another one. All right.
Right. Okay. So for people that are here listening that, uh, don't know who you are.
We just jumped right in.
We jumped right into the cannabis stuff. That was fun. Well, can you give a brief background and your history in like medicine and science and all this stuff?
What is their... There's one of the vaccines that the kids get like the second they're born. They get a couple of vaccines.
Vitamin K is one of them, but there's another one that's supposed to mitigate against like sexually transmitted diseases.
Why are they injecting infant babies that are literally like five minutes old with hepatitis B vaccines?
DTaP?
My kid's pediatrician kicked us out of her practice for not wanting to participate in all the vaccines.
Mm hmm.
That's crazy.
Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you think is important that we talk about?
Maybe we'll get some down there. Apparently there's a huge garbage problem there.
I'm a fan of Brincone and Aguadilla area.
Opposite side of the island.
Oh, it's great.
And is there anyone that's doing any kind of research on figuring out how to treat and mitigate these turbo cancers? Yeah.
And Jack talks a lot about nicotine too, how nicotine somehow is similar to, um,
I know a guy who's like 300 pounds overweight and he smokes two packs of Newports a day and he got COVID and he was fine.
It causes ulcers and stuff. Don't swallow it. And if you do too much of it, it can really screw up your gum, so you should rotate it.
Oh, yeah, she's great. It's a lot, though. It's a lot to digest.
Oh, okay.
Thank you again for coming, man.
I'll link your Twitter, your Substack. What else?
What the hell is that? All right, that's our cue.
Good night, everybody. Take care.
Or what was it for people who don't know?
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Why would I laugh about that?
It's the man-made reverse engineered?
Oh, really?
Do you ever think back, like just laying in bed late at night and be like, God damn it, maybe I should have taken that $2 billion.
It's a suicide mission. What would it be like to go to war with one of these organizations?
Right.
It's like a cutout. It is a cutout. Yeah.
You've got to be so paranoid, man.
And who was the guy who first wrote about this?
I'm not familiar with it.
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Okay. Can you explain to me again how exactly they run these codes? I'm sorry.
No, I'm familiar with how numbers are associated with the language and the words.
I wasn't familiar with how they... Are they using a computer to purchase it?
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And how did they find that? Like they did this after the fact, obviously, right?
Is that where you get the idea? Where does the idea of the 5,000-year cycles come from?
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Okay. Does that come from the Mayans?
Oh.
Like a circle thing?
Yeah.
They were so mathematically advanced. It's almost hard to comprehend.
Right. Where did they get that? Who built the pyramids? There's so many questions.
Now back to the show.
Have you ever been to Egypt? I'm sure you have.
Yeah.
Yeah. Are you familiar with Christopher Dunn? I don't get out much. He wrote a book. I think his first book was in the late 80s, maybe, called The Giza Power Plant.
Yeah, he's an engineer. He comes from aerospace. And when he first saw the pyramids, he thought, there's no way this is a tomb. He reverse engineered it, and he says, this is a functional tomb. this is a functional machine and his, he's revamped his theory and added onto it recently. And his newest book is called, um, the geek or the, the Tesla connection. It's like part two. Yeah.
And his idea is that the pyramid, the great pyramid is a, uh, a solid state electron harvester that harvests electrons deep within the earth. And he's even had like NASA scientists that have backed up his ideas with how those stones in there can, um, help with the electron flow through the earth and how like, you know, all those shafts and everything in there, they don't make sense.
It's like that, that thing had to have some sort of crazy function to it.
What stone – they took the core samples out of the limestones on the outer edge of it, on the outer parts of it?
What is this, Steve? I believe this is what he's referring to. Oh. Did they publish it? Abstract. Study of physical properties such as porosity, density, and mechanical properties such as compressive strength and tensile strength of Egyptian limestone based on experimental investigations.
Yeah. What is the finding? Go up and go up. No, no, no. The very top. It says findings at the top. Right where we just were. Findings. A strong correlation between porosity and density and good correlation between uniaxial strength and tensile strength. Carried out results indicated the small porosity results indicated
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. I want to go. Definitely. I got to wait till my kids get a little older so I can bring them with us, with me. But there's like all these giant granite blocks all around the pyramid that look like they have literal circular saw blade cuts in them. Like you could run a credit card through it. They're so perfect.
It looks like someone took a giant circular saw and went right into the side of those pieces of granite.
very profound and uh I think it makes a lot of sense especially when you compare the direction that we're going in society right now to the way that societies and cultures evolved in antiquity and just looking at some of the creations that are beyond our comprehension today that
people and our ancestors had, it's just, it seems so obvious that they were more connected to themselves and to the earth and they're not stuck in this hamster wheel of efficiency and progress and chasing the economy and just in that hamster wheel, that money-making hamster wheel that we live in today, our world. So I think it resonates really well.
That's funny. Tell people that are listening and watching where they can find your book, where they can find your website, get in touch with you, all that stuff.
Look at that handsome devil.
Is that your website? That's the Hay House website.
If you have five minutes, we have a couple of questions for our Patreon subscribers. Yeah. That we should do at the end of each podcast.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll just spend like, you know, 30 seconds to a minute answering each question. We'll just rip through a couple of them. All right. All right. Which one do you want to do, Steve? Let's not do like the ones that are like 10 paragraphs.
This guy asks about the gene code. Okay. This guy says, what is the God code discovered in DNA? Again, we got to keep it simple. Keep it short. All right. If it's possible. I know that's a that's like a 10 hour question.
all right so this this highlighted part i think is okay i can't see it you gotta undo the highlight today i see people becoming genetically weaker due to the amount of poisons they get from food water sky medical industrial complex i see people becoming much stupider becoming dopamine addicts do you think that the human race is subconsciously thinning its own herd out in order to become stronger is it uh is the great leap
Yeah, that's the mystery.
Right. Something we also covered pretty good on the actual podcast. Okay. This guy says, Greg has a gift for summarizing. Ask him what his focus, ask him with all the focus on awakening the masses. Now that we have a huge groups of people engaged, what's next? What does he see on the horizon? Not in a theoretical sense, but in actual, but the actual effects now.
That's amazing, man. Thanks again. I appreciate you doing that.
Yeah, that was the lightning round. Thank you, Patreon. We're like three and a half hours in. Thanks to all the Patreons. Love you guys. And that's it. That's all, folks. Good night. Good night. Take the rest of the day off. Yeah, sleep tight.
It's astonishing the level of technology we were able to develop and achieve. Like the technological progression that we were able to do during the Cold War is like unparalleled.
Yeah, it's...
the time during the cold war and especially surrounding like the kennedy assassination and what was going on inside the joint chiefs of staff and the the total nuclear annihilation they wanted to plan and kennedy wanting to get in the way and pull everyone out of vietnam and how that led to essentially him getting assassinated and the whole cover-up behind that i mean that is like there that really showed i think more than ever that there is a deep rot
Within the United States and the people and the military industrial complex and the people that are behind the scenes.
Deep as you want to go. I'm ready to go.
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Well, I see what you're saying. It's been a theme on the show with recent guests that we've had on. There is obviously something going on with the human body.
You can see it when you compare us, people living in metropolitan cities and people that are surrounded by screens all day inside, underneath artificial light, doom scrolling on those dopamine slot machine iPhones that we have all day long, getting all of our information from these screens. And there's a very clear difference between... us and people that are living in the Amazon.
When you go down there and you're disconnected from all this stuff and you're not surrounded by this artificial light, all these non-native EMFs, all these screens everywhere, these blue light screens that are basically hijacking your circadian rhythm, there's something inside the body that many people have been on the show and described how it literally, quite literally happens to them and it's eye-opening.
What motivated you and pushed you in this direction to be interested in this stuff in the first place and to become this sort of like public figure around all these different ideas? Two questions. These crazy kind of... you know, a lot of them are kind of like woo woo type thing. I mean, you're on ancient aliens, right?
Where there's these senses that are buried in us that open up once you get out there and you get away from all this civilization and technology. And that seems to be suppressed everything I just talked about.
When we are prevented from accessing our body, that is- No, we're prevented from accessing our divinity. When we're prevented from accessing our divinity- When you're prevented from accessing- That is a form of evil, because the evil is somebody who wants to control us by blocking us from ourselves.
And they're known for being kind of like out there.
Of course.
Okay, so this is the article right here, published 2022.
Brain cells in a lab dish learn to play Pong and offer a window onto intelligence. A dish of living brain cells has learned to play the 1970s arcade game Pong. About 800,000 cells linked to a computer gradually learn... To sense the position of the game's electronic ball and control the virtual paddle, a team reports in the journal Neuron. Whoa.
Like a field of consciousness?
Right.
No, we had a gentleman on here the other day who was showing us aerial images of temples, of ancient temples, and they were shaped like human bodies. Mm-hmm. I think one of them was in Egypt. And I think one, even the Vatican, he was explaining how like the aerial image of the Vatican, how like the center of it was like a pregnant belly or something.
So what is your background and how did you get into this stuff in the first place?
Our body creates UV light.
That's so funny you say that. I just had a guy, a genome expert on the podcast like two weeks ago, who was explaining this exact same thing and how they're doing studies. And Kevin was explaining on how they are saving their sequences and their studies. They're somehow saving them on the blockchain.
What does that mean?
our humanness we lose our ability to access our divinity that is a form of evil that is biological evil let me pause you right there let me ask you this do you think that this is a concerted effort or a malevolent effort behind the scenes or do you think this is just like silicon valley capitalism going off the rails okay have you ever wondered what happened to the legendary chuck norris that's the wrong question danny what did chuck norris happen to
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You do a really great job at communicating some of the stuff that you talk about. And you cover a wide, wide swath of topics from religion to spirituality to all. I mean, I just like when I start diving down your YouTube channel, I can't stop.
Oh, yeah.
You know what's funny about the Olympics thing? Everyone focused on the... What was the... It was the Last Supper. It wasn't the Last Supper. It was something else. Or no, maybe it was, but it wasn't... It was Dionysus, right? It was Dionysus and Apollo. It was something of Apollo. Anyways, I don't think it was supposed to be the Last Supper.
I think it was supposed to be... Can you find out what that was actually called, Steve? They made it look like the Last Supper for a reason.
Right. Oh, the Feast of Dionysus.
So, yeah, yeah, we did a whole podcast on this, but apparently that's not supposed to be... They're saying it's the Last Supper, but I think what Neil was telling us was that that was Apollo, that the big, the large woman in the center was supposed to be Apollo.
Right, right. Yeah. So the point is – That woman is the Jesus Christ we deserve. Yeah.
There it is. There it was. There's the original. So that's Dionysus drinking wine at the bottom.
Or eating his grapes. And there's the lady. Right, exactly. The seven rays. It's still the same seven rays that Jesus had in the Last Supper. Where does all this have to do with the Olympics? It has nothing to do with the Olympics.
But the funny thing is, though, is everyone paid attention to this, and no one paid attention to the badass Gojira concert that was going on. Did you see the metal show that they had? They had this band, Gojira, and they had them all on these balconies. They had the drummer on his own balcony. I heard it. They had the guitarist on his own balcony. Oh, it was sick.
I think that was, that was a definite, definite win for the Olympics. But yeah, this whole thing was, was silly.
And some of it may be just people. And people like to take it to the extreme too. Like people on the opposite end of everything, they want to make things out to be something they're not. So it's like, you got to try to like be set. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle with this stuff.
We contribute to it a little bit, though. Not enough to raise the sea levels, but it's known that humans do contribute a little bit to climate change, right?
Yes.
About what part?
No, I've talked a lot about ice cores on the show.
Yes.
There's even like metals and stuff that can be deposited in there. This is something that Flint was talking about.
But when you say the earth, do you mean the ground? I'm talking about our planet. Or are you talking about the atmosphere? I'm talking about our planet. So are you talking about specifically, like what I'm saying, are you talking about, like you're saying that the earth was warmer? Are you talking about just the entire earth, including the atmosphere?
Atmosphere, okay, got it.
is co2 today high absolutely is it higher than it was 10 years ago absolutely is it higher than was 100 years ago absolutely is that a bad thing right not necessarily i agree totally and if you look at the cosmics if you look at the long scale and even if you look at graphs of climate of co2 levels and and the atmospheric temperatures even over the last 20 000 years it is a roller coaster
That sounds about right.
Yeah, and then find – yeah, maybe find like a graph, like a historical graph of the – So 440 parts per million. Yeah.
440 parts per million of levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere today.
You start planting more trees.
Some people love that idea.
It's so wild. That's in Texas too, I think.
social media companies that are essentially controlling the world. I mean, Google and YouTube, you want to talk about like a, like a modern day Rockefeller, like a huge monopoly that controls everything, controls the, like the information draws the lines on where you can go and where you can't go on a conversation during a podcast. And yeah, how that is basically merged with centralized medicine.
It's the centralization of all of the media and medicine, which is the most frightening thing to me.
The Patriot Act. How about that one? That's a great title.
I heard that recently.
He came over on a sail with a Knights Templar badge on the sail.
It certainly looks like that's happening.
Well, currently with the state, I mean, I don't blame people for having that sentiment now in today's age. It's looking what's happening with the government right now.
That is the point of the United States of America.
You see that video of John Kerry at the World Economic Forum?
It's getting in the way of regulating information and disinformation online.
He stuttered a few times before he said that. Well, he probably thought about it afterwards. I bet he got a phone call.
Right.
Yeah. Um, it's interesting. I read a book all about the creation of DARPA, the defense advanced research. I think it used to be called ARPA. Now it's called DARPA where they were, uh, during the cold war, uh, working on, I think that's where the, where GPS came from. So the internet came from. Yeah. The internet. I think jock filet was a big part of that. And, um,
One thing that they were talking about in that book by Andy Jacobson, it's sensational, was that they actually were developing brain chips like Neuralink. They were developing Neuralink in the 90s for soldiers to create super soldiers. To be able to avoid pain and to increase endurance. And they were working on different... I have a friend who lives in Tampa, who's a nutritional biologist.
And the DOD contracted him to figure out how to make it so... Navy SEALs could breathe oxygen rebreathers without getting oxygen toxicity seizures. And he developed this special... He basically found out that essentially ketosis, the keto diet, is able to mitigate that. And now they're applying that to epilepsy patients.
They're putting them on keto diets. They don't have the seizures anymore.
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I don't know. I don't know, Steve. I'll just Google it. I'll ask the Google. But yeah, no, the Neuralink thing is crazy. Like the fact that they've been doing that since the 90s and we don't know about it until like a couple of years ago when Elon's talking about it.
It looks like it's not really. I mean, it says it's uncommon. He can't find anything. Oh, wait. Go up. What is that? It says it has been a subject of experimental clinical use and science fiction. There are several biological and physiological hurdles to make it unlikely for deep sea diving.
Even in vitro fertilization, I mean... In a way, I had an anthropologist on the show, and he was explaining how that's a scary road to go down.
computers only the blue lights you're talking about yeah and the dopamine part of it too how it hijacks your your your dopamine feedback and the the loop in your brain how you how you get that dopamine from from these things from these phones and from these screens like video games or this like mindless scrolling these doom scrolling that you can do on like instagram and reading stuff on twitter like
That's not how you're supposed to get dopamine. That makes you, quite literally, it makes you a slave to these devices.
And they wake up.
Looked the wrong way, crossing the street in London, right?
Yes.
And why are all these testimonies of these folks, why are they all so similar?
And they're thinking- That would explain the extraction of eggs and sperm.
Isn't that interesting? Another interesting thing about the testimony from all the people that John Mack talked to is that a vast majority of them said that when they asked these beings during these experiences they had, whether you want to believe that they were real experiences or whether they happened all inside their head.
Either way, a vast majority of these folks said when they asked these beings who they were and where they were from, a lot of them said they were from the future. They didn't say they were from other planets or whatever.
We didn't come from anywhere. We came from here, from Earth. Right, exactly. And if you want to... compare extraterrestrials from another galaxy or from another Goldilocks planet and another solar system to us, like, first of all, what would be their incentive to try to warn us and try to save us, right?
Like, why would we want to travel across the galaxy just to warn this other civilization not to destroy themselves, right? It would make sense if they were us from the future, they would have an incentive to do that. Another thing anthropologically, easy for you to say, This is a team. Yeah, exactly. I think there's over 2 million catalog species of animals on Earth.
Thanksgiving, yeah. Can you believe this guy? This guy was nice enough to fly all the way here from New Mexico the day before Thanksgiving, and you're going to be on an airplane for Thanksgiving Day. I will. Are you going to be back in time for dinner? No.
20 of those are hominids, and one of those 20 happens to be upright.
walking hominids that can control their and manipulate their environment right and we happen to also be the the one of the 20 out of the 2 million that can develop technology that can leave the earth right and and look at so so look at how rare we are on planet earth as a species that can do this and attain this level of technology right now extrapolate that out into the universe out of all the goldilocks planets like how much life have we found on their planets right
Now look at, look at the variety of, of conditions that these Goldilocks plants we do know of exist in like the difference in gravity, the difference in the atmosphere. Most of them are water worlds. Some of them are binary star systems. So what are the, what are the, like just looking at the percentage of us compared to all the other catalog species of mammals and, and, and, and,
living things on earth, species on earth, what are the chances that another species on another Goldilocks zone planet that can inhabit life is going to evolve to look like us with two arms, two legs, upright walking bipedal hominids with two forward facing eyes, brain sits on top of the head, just like we do. I'm glad you asked. That's so unbelievably rare. Can I tell you what the odds are? None?
Zero percent?
No, you won't.
John Hawks. Who's John Hawks?
Yeah, it's red.
So you're saying because we interbred with them, that's why it shows up.
Yeah, yeah. This is like getting into Sumerian Zachariah Sitchin land with like the Anunnaki stories.
Wow, okay.
Did Mitchell ever tell you the truth about the moon landing?
We did?
Yeah.
Oh yeah. Favorite movies. One of my favorite movies.
You know, because there was a whole like underground movement after the moon landing. Because one of the biggest arguments for the moon landing not being a hoax is that if it was fake, Russia would have or China would have like came out and tried to expose that, right? Because they wouldn't want to be humiliated.
Why do you think that is?
What do you think is on the moon?
You see, there was something that came out in NASA a couple weeks ago, I think it was maybe even a month ago, where they discovered caves, like deep caverns on the moon.
Like there was also something that came out where they were interviewing and I think it was in front of Congress maybe, but they were interviewing the head of NASA and they were asking him about why China is sending rovers out to the dark side of the moon. And he was like, ah, he was like, let them do it. We don't care what's we don't care what's back there.
What other... ancient texts or anything that you've looked into or ancient religious cults have talked about this DNA, this merging of the DNA telomeres other than like, and how does, I know like the Sumerian, what exactly does it say in the Sumerian tablets and those myths?
Right, right, right.
It's one of the most, it's one of the most interesting, crazy, like sci-fi stories that's out there is the story of the Anunnaki coming down and creating us to basically be a slave species to terraform the planet and And then they started breeding with us and they somehow wanted us to mine gold.
To put in the atmosphere.
Yeah. It's interesting that all of the, like the entire Bible, there's nothing, there's no evidence of anything in the Bible prior to the Hellenistic period. It all came after the Hellenistic era, which is fascinating. And there's literally like, like before, like during three, the 300, the third century BC and up to like the second century BC is when all these biblical
biblical characters started to get written about like for example moses there was like two dozen versions of moses that were written about in the hellenistic area that were like in you know preserved in the library of alexandria and then that's after this is when we start to get this biblical narrative to come forth so like yeah it's interesting and and also when it comes to the dead sea scrolls
One of the weird things about that is it's mostly Hebrew, right? There's Hebrew, there's Aramaic, there's Greek. But there's no other Hebrew language anywhere in antiquity.
Is it selective? Yes. Right, right. Yeah, one of the interesting things about the Bible is like the way we look at religion today is vastly different than the way people looked at religion in antiquity, right? We look at like people, some folks like to look at religion as like hard fact in science, right? As if like that's what they live by. I mean, it's one thing to look at it that way.
And then it's another thing to look at it as like a tradition or a mythology, something to that upholds values for you and your community. Like back then there was like religions weren't exclusive, like Yahwism, all these other religions were just like people embraced all of them.
Right.
Was that war scroll, what year was that one discovered?
Interesting.
Oh, really?
What's in the Isaiah scroll? Have you read it?
And this is in Mesoamerica you've looked at this stuff?
And what have you found?
That's fascinating.
What is the, I know we've talked about this a million times, but I can't remember, what is the consensus among scholars of when the Dead Sea Scrolls were originally composed?
Or like, yeah, what is the narrative?
okay so they say they were written between the third and the first okay right so during or after they're hellenistic at the very at the very earliest they were hellenistic so 300 in the 300 bc roughly
Mm-hmm.
There he is. Actually, find a short.
Right.
I've been going to protests for 30 years and I've never seen anything like this. The sound was like a whiz. Okay, yeah. Wow. And you know, part of this, this is Belgrade. Wow.
So that designation they got from the IRS when they basically assaulted them with lawsuits, right? and brought them to the, brought the IRS to his knees, brought the IRS to the, to its knees and got, got the IRS to basically wipe out a billion dollars in back taxes.
Now, the history of this is, I think, and maybe you can elucidate this a little bit better, but originally, I think the UN came in and said it's going to be like a 56-44 split between the Jews and the Palestinians, right?
Right.
Oh, okay. Yeah.
Oh, okay. And then down the road, it somehow got down to 20%, which is West Bank and Gaza, right? To what it is today. Yeah.
um and what's another crazy thing about this whole thing is the i think i heard you explain this but that the the um the jews in israel and the palestinians are genetically the same right like their dna and their their heritage is essentially identical you mentioned ben-gurion and you know ben-gurion and yitzhak ben-zvi who was the second president
That somehow makes them exempt from all of this unbelievably horror, horrifying humanitarian atrocities that they're considered that, that they're carrying out on their headquarters with children and people paying them basically no money, making them scrub toilets and, and all this stuff. Yeah.
What has been the response from people in Israel from this?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you've noticed, but I've noticed online just I mean, recently, like, obviously, since October 7, and now there is just so much debate happening in the US or surrounding this whole topic.
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Yeah, what do you make of, you know, a lot of people who are educated in this history, far more than I am, some of them Like to say that, you know, maybe if America wasn't so tied up with Israel and Israel didn't have such a strong influence over American politics and, you know, didn't have such a backing of America, maybe they would be more incentivized to come up with a solution.
With APAC and things like this.
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Yeah. And then you have, you know, is, you know, them trying to, it looks like America is like gearing up to go to war with Iran, you know, when Israel, I think Netanyahu was, you know, in the nineties trying to get, trying to convince us that we needed to go to war with Iran and.
You know, trying to back them, you know, in these wars and getting entwined in these conflicts overseas that like seem to have no. no benefit for us to get involved in yet. We do.
And it's, you know, it's frustrating. It's frustrating to watch. And then you have like this lady who recently went in front of Congress, some high level, I forget who she was. I think she was supposed to be like an ambassador to the UN and she's getting questioned in front of Congress. And she says, so they asked her if she believes that Israel has a right to the West bank based on, based on,
the Bible or something. And she was like, yes, they have a, Israel has a biblical right to the West Bank. Like that's like something that's absolutely insane to hear somebody say in front of Congress, like an actual high ranking government official.
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It's fascinating stuff, man. What else are you working on? Do you have anything that you can talk about at least?
how do you decide what you're gonna dedicate your time to? Because when you're working on these projects, they take a long time to turn out.
Right. I know you're going to waste your time.
yeah it always it always um is interesting to me how people like yourself who spend so much time on these on these complex deep stories are able to manage their time and be disciplined enough to to do their homework right and make sure they're following up on every single lead and you know getting uh corroboration on things and trying to navigate like am i getting a
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fed bullshit on this story or that story or you know even you like working with intelligence community the intelligence community and like and like people in the government and stuff like that like you know how do you know you're not just getting led astray on things and that seems like a difficult thing to navigate it is hard but you know i i
I admire that so much, and it's very few and far between that you meet people like yourself who go to the primary, primary, primary sources of some of these things, like boots on the ground, firsthand accounts of what these people are like, what they believe. And there's not much of that in the media today. More of it is just like the telephone game.
Like people talking about let's – our daily – I'm guilty of it too. Like a daily – like a talk show that you do weekly and you're having people that are coming in and we're talking about some reporting we saw in the New York Times or on some other publication that they maybe got it through somebody else and they got it through somebody else. Yeah.
And it's hard to be able to have the determination and the belief in yourself to stick through something for so long and to do that kind of like, boots on the ground reporting that you're doing. And I hope more people can continue to carry the torch that you've been carrying for so long in the future.
Well, thanks again. I really appreciate your time.
I enjoyed it myself. And your new book, The Human Scale.
yeah boom look at that beautiful cover we'll be on we'll link it below but on your website or amazon what's the best place to buy it yeah you probably should go to amazon or your local bookstore okay fantastic um lawrence right ladies and gentlemen thank you very much oh yeah we have patreon questions uh we have a couple questions on our patreon for you from our our beautiful patreon supporters that will do that as well okay um but that's the end of the podcast all right all right good night folks
Is it true that he famously said something on his deathbed or something like that about this was all some scheme to make money?
Is that quote in the document, like L. Ron Hubbard's actual quote to what he said to him?
It's funny. Just recently I was having a conversation with my brother-in-law, and he works for one of the biggest Scientology-owned companies in downtown Clearwater. It's called Know Before. It's like an antivirus software for computer software. Yeah. And he's like, it's all Scientology owned.
Did you, what kind of backlash or intimidation tactics or any sort of threats did you personally get when you made this?
No, this is before.
Oh.
And all of the higher end executives, like all the executives on the executive floor, they're all Scientologists. So there's like a Scientology floor and there's like a civilian floor. And it's like him and all of his buddies will always joke like under their breath or like make fun of the Scientologists. And like, you know, it's kind of like this weird dichotomy of.
Yeah, there's a lot of folks around this area who are former Scientologists that have built their own YouTube channels. There's one guy named Aaron who lives around here. He has a great channel called Growing Up in Scientology because he grew up literally with his parents. They were Scientologists. He grew up working in the Sea Org and all this stuff.
these people all working together in the same building but you're you know you're inside of a cult building like these people are all in this cult and i was like wow that would make such a great tv show about that it would be like the office meets like some sort of like science like cult uh science fiction you know reality show or something like this and i was asking him i was like because we were in a restaurant right across the street from where he works and i was like
Now he's amassed this incredible following of basically just talking about all the things that are happening constantly in Scientology. Yeah. And, you know, it seems like there's just this crazy resurgence of stuff online and YouTube of new age, younger folks investigating Scientology and like walking into the building and interviewing the lady at the front desk. And, you know...
trying to investigate all these recent court battles there's this other guy named grant cardone who's this big um celebrity internet figure um who's like into real estate and like you know brags about all the jets that he owns and then you know films himself walking around the flag building you know over there
And there's just so much like scandal and just crazy stuff happening involving all these like big figures and Scientology and the people investigating. There's like a new Scientology documentary that comes out on YouTube every week, it seems like. So to me, it's just bananas how this organization can continue to survive.
and thrive for this long with the way that the media landscape is evolving and everyone talking about it.
that big ceremony they put together in Los Angeles after they won the war against the IRS. And just the way he struts around, the way he walks, the way he shakes people's hands is just like, whoa, this dude is like really putting on a performance. He's really putting on a show. Um, and then I saw another thing recently that I wasn't aware of that.
There's like somewhere down the street in Clearwater off of like highway 19 or something. There's this huge apartment complex, this like rundown apartment complex, which are allegedly is the spot where all the Sea Org members live. And they, they turned basically like one bedroom apartments that might be the size of this room right here. And they,
like how do you know i'm like do you know but by looking at somebody if they're a scientologist he's like oh yeah 100 and i was like how do you know he's like just look into their eyes and you can see you can tell by just looking into their eyes it's like almost robotic the way they look and sure i was like looking around he's like there was like five people in that room at the time he's like there's one guy in here it's definitely a scientist see if you can figure it out i looked around and sure i nailed it i was like definitely that guy
right yeah but anyways i heard that miscavige was living on that property on that apartment complex property like he probably has an apartment you know somewhere there yeah or maybe in the old hotel i imagine he stays around here in this area or la maybe yeah well he has residences in different places yeah it'd be interesting to see how long this thing survives you know and like
You spent a lot of time, you've done lots of investigative research on cults, right?
That was, how long ago was that? That was in the, the Jonestown thing was in like the, was that the early 90s?
It's just such a wild phenomenon.
Yeah.
And were they supposed to be there?
Is that the vest? Like the vest around the white shirt?
Drinking the Kool-Aid, right.
What do you think it is about the human mind that creates people like Jim Jones? Like what, what are not, not necessarily about the human mind, but maybe it's probably something about people's upbringing and their development. And like, how do you, How does nature create a Jim Jones type character?
So dark. You have a way of navigating your way through the darkest stories of human history.
And I thought, oh, these are the young nuns.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've thought a lot about this and it seems like it's, you know, obviously there's a ton of terrible things about Scientology, right? Like the harassment campaigns they go on and the... Outright slavery that they participate in with having their Sea Org members.
And I kind of grew up around all of it because I spent a lot of my youth in downtown Clearwater running around my friends and, you know, just, you know, goofing around. And I was born in Morton Plant Hospital, which is basically right across the street from the flag building. And I kind of never really dug too deep into them until I saw your film.
Yeah, that's an interesting thing about death row. I mean, there's a huge percentage. I don't remember the exact percentage. Maybe, Steve, you can find it. But of people that end up on death row who are innocent. And it's like a big to-do to get any sort of look over or like a redo of their conviction or like a re-look at looking at their DNA because –
And the most gruesome thing is the cadet farm or the cadet organization where they have all the babies in there that are just not taken care of. And I think it was... one of the women in your documentary who was John Travolta's front, like John Travolta's handler, I guess. Spanky, that's right.
I know the DNA, they get the DNA wrong a lot or like for whatever reason, these whoever gets these the prosecutors who get these convictions and the judges and they just there's this reluctance to admit that they got something so something so serious like this wrong.
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Her baby was in there and she found her baby in there, was like covered in fleas and like not fed, sick, fever. That is probably the most gut-wrenching aspect of what they're doing and of your documentary, I think personally. But, you know, if that stuff wasn't a part of it, I feel like this is just no different than any other religion other than the fact that it's more modern.
100%.
I have a good friend who is a local lawyer around here. And he takes a lot of crazy, crazy cases. One of his first cases actually that really like put him on the map was a boat captain who was driving a boat from Columbia to Tampa with like, I forget, a hundred tons of cocaine on it or whatever. And the guy was sentenced to life in prison and he got him off.
scot-free nothing didn't spend a day in prison the guy he actually let this guy stay in his house yeah during the whole trial because he had nowhere to stay he was poor and uh essentially the story was the cartel boarded a ship on the way to tampa and held a gun to his head said you're taking all this cocaine to tampa we're going to kill you and your whole fucking family
So he, he took a detain, you know what I mean? That, and that's my friend, his name is Bjorn. He's a, the lawyer, he was explaining to me.
And since then, he's been taking hundreds of cases, very similar to this, where essentially the cartel will take these, these, you know, these poor people like the boat captain or, you know, just pawns in this whole game and make them transport all this stuff into, And if they don't do it, they threaten to kill their family.
And the only people that get in trouble are these people that are put in these situations, these poor people who have no part in the money-making of the cartel or all the death that happens with the cartels. And these kingpins, these high-level guys, they are just untouched. And they never see a courtroom in their life.
And we know the guy, the guy that created it lived in modern times in our lifetime. And it's got a way better marketing plan.
And the point I originally wanted to make about this lawyer friend of mine, Bjorn, was he – Enjoy that magic mind. It's delicious. He, um, he took a case, uh, with a convicted murderer who was on death row for, um, basically he was a truck driver who was on death row for killing a prostitute at a I was interested. This was back in the day when I was making documentaries.
And I thought this was a fascinating case because Bjorn thought that he was innocent because of some of the, it's a little bit foggy, but there was no conclusive DNA testing to prove that he did it. He claimed he was innocent, right? And the family of this prostitute, they wanted this guy to be murdered. They wanted him to be executed. He was on death row. He's been on death row since like 1990.
And this was, we filmed this probably in 2015. So long time he's been on death row his whole life. And we went out, we traveled out to this little town in the middle of Florida. I forget the name of the town, but it's one of the last places. It's one of the only places, I think one of the two prisons in Florida where they still execute people. middle of nowhere, spooky town.
And we, we got there right at sunset and we were filming and there was this big field with TV reporters and on one side of the field and it was cordoned off with like a caution tape was this group of people who were supporting the guy who was about to be executed and
And about a hundred yards away, there was another boxed off little area with all the people who were family members of the woman who died or friends of them, about an equal amount of people. And we were going back and forth interviewing both of them. And it was just the most insane experience to hear both of their sides.
I mean, on the side of the people that were trying to stop the guy from being executed were you know, two of the people there had just gotten off death row after spending their entire lives on death row and being exonerated after finally getting their case pushed through.
And, you know, also seeing like Bjorn, the lawyer who was really emotionally invested in all this and like the TV cameras were all over him and he was like beside himself during this whole process. And like, And the guy, the guy who was convicted for murder, who was on death row, he was strapped to the table on a gurney getting ready to be lethal injected.
And they have like this theater in that room, right? Where they pull the curtains back and like certain people like the lawyers and like some of the family can be in this theater while they watch the person be executed.
And I guess they had the guy strapped to the gurney for like three hours while they waited for the court to give the decision, whether they were going to the Supreme Supreme court, whether they were going to stay the execution or not. So like this guy strapped to this table for hours, waiting for the verdict to come down from the Supreme court.
And we're all, and this didn't end till like three or four in the morning. and eventually I think they, they ended up executing him. And it was just the most bizarre experience. Like it, it's like, it was for me, like the experience was like, it's amazing that we're living here. This was like 2015.
And like the way the world has evolved, we're still like in this, we're so primitive in some of, in this, in this sense, you know, that, that, that, you know, we're still, we still can't figure out if people committed a crime or not. And we're like, well, we have the fact that we have movie theaters for people to watch people be executed. It's just bizarre.
Yeah, just the slow bureaucracy of the court system.
Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, I can see how it would just be so easy to lose hope if you got stuck in that system. Oh, sure. You know? You also worked on a wild story about satanic ritual abuse. Oh, yeah. Which ties into all this crazy stuff.
Satanists. Yeah. How do you define a Satanist? That would be my first question.
What did he say about, like, what, did anyone ever ask him, like, why did you admit to doing this?
Yeah, what was that story about the daycare? The kid was telling their parents that they flew to Mexico and buried a giraffe or something? Where did that come from?
After the recess.
In the 90s. Oh, God. Yeah, we had, I had a gentleman on here by the name of Whitley Streber.
He lives in Texas, or he used to live in Texas. Yeah, he lives in LA, I think. Lives in LA now. And he had a crazy story about a military school he went to when he was a kid. And he said there was a lot of hypnotizing going on and a lot of like weird psychological experiments going on in there. where they were like putting kids in boxes and things and like experimenting with telepathy.
And he also explains the story, which he doesn't really talk about much anymore, but he's done two separate radio interviews in the past where he's mentioned when he was a kid, he was flown down to Mexico to a part of some military experiment during the Cold War. And allegedly- um, him and the rest of these children were shown videos of people being like mutilated and like dead bodies.
And they were explained, it was explained to these kids that it was their fault that this happened to these people. So it was some crazy experiment to induce trauma in children. Um, to induce some sort of psychic or psionic abilities in kids. Again, this is like the cold war. It sounds like crazy woo woo stuff, but, but this is the story that he told.
Um, and, and he, he doesn't talk about the Mexico stuff anymore, but that, that reminded me of it. And, um, And during that time in the Cold War, there was also a lot of crazy remote viewing type things that were going on, experiments within the intelligence community trying to figure out better ways to spy on the Soviet Union. And they thought that this remote viewing thing could happen.
And there were people like Ingo Swann and Uri Geller who – not Uri, but Ingo Swann and a bunch of the other remote viewers in this program called the – it was Stanford Research Institute program. were Scientologists, which is bizarre. I recently had a gentleman on here named Jeffrey Mishlove who explained this all to me. And I was asking him like, why are all these remote viewers Scientologists?
It's so strange. He's like, yeah, there was a lot of them. Hal Puthoff was another one. And I asked this guy, Jeffrey Mishlove, I'm like, why do you think this was? And he says, I think L. Ron Hubbard was onto something. And
And then I was just like blown away that this was all right here this whole time.
Was that before the movie came out, the Communion movie with Christopher Walken?
But I can't believe, I mean, that's pretty wild that you can write something like that and then make a freaking Hollywood movie with Christopher Walken playing your character. I wonder what that does to you, what that does to your belief. Say, for example, that he thought that these memories can't be real. Something weird happened. I don't know what it is, but I don't necessarily believe it.
And then some crazy blockbuster Hollywood movie gets made about it.
Yeah, he also writes a lot of very dark, dark fiction. Right. Stuff about vampires and werewolves and things like this. Yeah. I got to take a leak real quick. Okay. Take a quick break. We'll jump back in. All right. While we're on the topic of all this satanic stuff, though, L. Ron Hubbard and Jack Parsons, that story is fascinating. It is.
Because Jack Parsons was really into all this satanic stuff, right? And had some sort of connection to Aleister Crowley. Is that right?
So Parsons, who was this, you know, jet JPL, he was the guy who founded JPL, right?
Yeah. Ends up like, how does a guy like that end up being like involved in all this satanic stuff? And like he wanted to, he wanted to like bring the antichrist, right? Yeah.
And there's a spot in the Everglades, allegedly, that he had a site that he worked on. Are you familiar with that?
There's this guy who does videos in the Everglades catching iguanas. And up there's this spot. I can't remember the name of it. Steve, maybe you can Google it. But it's an abandoned, I guess, abandoned Air Force Base rocket launch area. There's actual silos in there where apparently Jack Parsons used to work at.
And he goes into the woods, into the Everglades, and he finds all these abandoned, overgrown houses with pentagrams in there and all kinds of dark, satanic stuff. Yeah. which is wild. I didn't know that, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's just, uh, it's so strange to me.
It's just so, because like being satanic is like, it's like being religious, you know, it's just like going the opposite direction. Yeah. You don't have to, you don't have to play it the whole video, but I was just wondering if you could Google where that, where Jack Parsons, his place was in the Everglades.
Do you remember the point where you stopped being really religious? Was there an exact point, or was it just kind of like a slow burn?
The idea of God seems to be a fundamental part of the operating system of the human mind.
Right. Like we're such a diverse country with different beliefs, different values. and some other countries like Israel, for example, or let's just say some middle Eastern country there, they would go as far for their, you know, so far for their beliefs in God to strap a bomb to their chest and detonate it. Right. And it's, it's almost like the opposite here. Right.
So it's like, it's like, they have a very, very from like a, even from if you want to put it into like a national security frame like is it great that some countries can have this very strong unifying identity? Is that, is that good for a country in some, in some sense versus us who as a population, we don't have this cohesive glue that, that helps us all stick together.
But, you know, we have this giant military, this giant government, all this money, all these weapons and all the, all these things, it kind of makes for a very interesting dynamic.
Did you lose any friends writing that book or making that film? Or were there any people in your life that maybe you didn't know were Scientologists that kind of just disappeared?
The reason I bring this up is because I've been noticing a lot of reporting recently on people in Silicon Valley trying to map Christianity onto everything that's going on in Silicon Valley, which historically is kind of like an anti-religious area. Peter Thiel is one of the biggest people. Peter Thiel is a really interesting guy. He's a gay Christian billionaire who is –
You know, one of the original investors in Facebook. I mean, all kinds of, you know, really big companies. He also is the owner of Palantir, which is a huge company. That's biggest client is the US military and intelligence services. I think the CIA is using Palantir. Yeah. And this guy is putting on these crazy conferences in San Francisco, inviting people to the, to these Christian conferences.
I think it was him and the guy from this company called Y Combinator, who is a, is big part. It's like a King maker in Silicon Valley. They, they fund a lot of startups and there's this church. I forget the name, but there's this big church right in the middle of San Francisco. And like, they're putting on these big conferences and, and, and,
trying to really sort of push this, push Christianity and religion onto all the people inside Silicon Valley to sort of give them some sort of purpose. I don't know what it is. I really can't wrap my mind around what's going on, but like, is it,
Reasonable to suggest that if they were to push this religion onto a place like Silicon Valley and these places that are coming up with these new innovative technologies that are being used for different things around the country and around the world that are a huge part of our economy and our military and everything else. Would that...
The E-meter? The E-meter, yeah.
That's one of the new Palantir things, too. Yeah.
It's like spreadsheet warfare. It's chilling.
Yeah, it's interesting the types of characters that you can find in there. Again, going back to Peter Thiel and Alex Karp, two very different people, right? And one of them, he made Alex the CEO of his company. They're both very...
I think Alex Karp donated millions of dollars to Kamala Harris' campaign, and then you have Peter Thiel, who is one of the biggest backers of Trump and his vice president. And Alex Karp proclaims to be this progressive guy, liberal person, but is also –
very much you know like a if you could call him a war hawk but he's a very like expansionist type of guy right and i think he said in his um there was a new york times article i read about him and he said something like something like and i might get this quote wrong but it was something to the effect of uh the idea of taking lives and saving lives is really interesting to me it is interesting i hope that's as far as you go with it right just like
It's it's bizarre. It is bizarre. The idea of of private private industries taking control of, you know, some of the some of this technology that can be used, you know, around the world and in war zones and things like this or for espionage. You know, it's it's a terrifying idea to think about what would happen if.
If some of these private industries were able to slip out of control of the United States government or the United States military.
yeah yeah totally um so i want to i want to talk to you about looming tower and i want to get to your new book too on the human scale which was fascinating i was able to i wasn't able to read the whole thing i made it through the first seven chapters though all right i'll just keep my my remarks still limited to the beginning no no i want to talk about all of it i think it's fascinating um but i want to spend some a good amount of time on that but um i wanted to ask you uh about a little bit about looming tower
How long after 9-11 did you decide to write about this? Oh, on 9-11. It was on 9-11.
You were in Austin?
Yeah, they had the escalators that went up.
This was like second floor or something.
And was it, like, when you were doing this research and talking to sources, I imagine some of these people were still actively working.
Right.
So the idea here with this internal rift between the CIA and the FBI is that John O'Neill and the FBI, Ali Soufan, they wanted to find the culprits and get rid of them or arrest them. And the intelligence community, the CIA, they wanted to... keep their distance, and try to figure out their way to get more intelligence out of this. Right.
Mr. Lawrence Wright, it's really a pleasure to have you on here. It's been a long time coming. I've been watching and reading your work for a very long time. Not a very long time. I think the first time I discovered you was in 2015 when Going Clear came out, the documentary on HBO. And I was sort of blown away because this place is right in my backyard.
I'm sure you know John Kiriakou, right?
Yeah. His story. I mean, he was the one who basically like blew the whistle on the whole torture program and what happened to him. They sent him to prison and ruined his life. Yeah. Stripped him of his retirement. So... Where did I want to go with this? Bin Laden. So I've had people on the show, including John, actually, who talk about how in the years leading up to 9-11, we had
CIA people, paramilitary folks over in Khartoum in Africa and in the Middle East, basically tracking bin Laden's every move. And in fact, there's this guy who, this guy by the name of Billy Wah, who's like this famous CIA paramilitary commando, basically, who Annie Jacobson writes about in her book, Surprise, Kill, Vanish.
Who was like there tracking the guy and going on daily jogs around the mosque that he would be visiting every day in Khartoum. He was taking photos of the guy. I mean of bin Laden. He would be like literally across the street from bin Laden taking photos of him around the clock.
And they couldn't get the – and then the way I understand it is they couldn't get permission to take out bin Laden even though they very easily could have. And as far as your understanding, why, why was that?
Oh.
Because we helped bin Laden originally, right? We helped him against the Soviet Union.
Really?
bin laden so the history of bin laden he he's interesting so his dad his father was made a ton of money um working for the king of saudi arabia right he got some sort of he wants some sort of contract to build some like a huge road or something well yeah that uh he was the major contractor in saudi arabia up until that point he had been working for an american company that was building you know roads in saudi arabia when they
53 kids, right? Yeah.
Wow. And going back, so 9-11 happens and we are actually before 9-11 is when the United States intelligence community goes to the FBI and says, we know these people are in the US, but we lost track of them.
Right. And how long before that did they know that they were, for example, taking these flying lessons over here in Florida, down the street from where we are now, and being handled by these Saudi intelligence people?
Yeah.
No. And there was also safe houses, I think on the West coast in California where some of these guys were staying and there was Saudi official or Saudi intelligence people that were somehow connected to this.
Is this part of the report that was never shown, part of the 9-11 commission that was hidden?
Has your view or your thinking around 9-11 evolved or changed at all since you first wrote about it? Because there's like, I mean, obviously there's like tons of different theories that float around out there about 9-11, like conspiracy theories that, you know, Alex Jones is one of the biggest proponents of it, how he called it out, like whatever, a year before it happened.
And there's documentaries that are out there that, you know, try to tie things like 9-11 to 9-11. Like look at operation Northwoods, you know, it's the same concept, but you know, years later and in a different context and you know, like why there's, there's tons of like legitimate questions that are asked about it from people that weren't really close to it. I've noticed.
I've noticed that people that were really close to it are directly affected by it through family or friends. They are the ones that don't have patience to entertain any of that stuff. But the people that are more disconnected from it, who maybe were in another part of the country or were born afterwards, who weren't directly really emotionally affected by this.
Like what?
It's wild. It really is. Because there are a lot of crazy questions that are, why did they leave stuff out of the commission report? Why was the black box in the plane never shut? Why did the FBI cover that stuff up? We'll never know the answer to that, I feel like.
Yeah, and the way 9-11 changed everything, too, in America is bizarre. Some of the things that were enacted as far as the TSA, the Patriot Act. I had a guy in here recently, Tom Drake, who was a whistleblower for the NSA, who worked for the NSA. His first day on the job at the NSA was 9-11.
And he was explaining to me the optimism of everybody in the NSA that day and how they were just elated with the idea of implementing their new, I forget the name of the software now, to where they could basically just do dragnet surveillance and collecting of data of all Americans. And it's just crazy how our world and our country changed after 9-11.
Wow. Yeah. That's something that young people don't have any comprehension of, you know, unless they hear stories like, like what you explained. And like, I was too young to even, you know, I was in, I think I was in like sixth grade when it happened. I remember vividly. I remember, I don't remember like going through airports, but, but you know, I remember that day and it's not encouraged. Right.
Right. But so, so, I want to talk about your new book and human scale. And it's, it's all about, it seems like the timing is unimpeccable with you, with you coming out with these, these books, you know, not only with, with this one, which I think this, you turned in your draft for this, I think right before October 7th, right? And you had been working on it for how long before then?
Right.
Some liberals.
So when you went about researching for this novel,
did you go about it i mean i assumed you just went about it in like this typical way you research for your um for your non-fiction works right yeah like you just investigated people like how long did you spend actually going there and how many times did you go into israel or into uh hebron to like did you i extensively interview individuals yeah i've you know
Did you ever interview—oh, sorry to interrupt, but I was going to ask if you ever interviewed any of Israeli's intelligence people.
Right. I've talked to a lot of people on this show from the United States' intelligence community. And it seems to me like the writing on the wall is, even if a lot of them won't outright say it, is there's a lot of – a simple way to put it is that America's intelligence, CIA, and Israel's intelligence, Mossad, don't get along.
Um, for what it's worth it and that their intelligence, it seems to be the sentiment that, that their intelligence is far more, I don't want to say superior is the right word, but, um, far more efficient.
for whatever reason um I I would imagine this you know the fact that you know they're surrounded by by enemies and you know their ultimate goal is to is to propagate the future of their race right so they have they have um there's more of an existential threat there
Right.
And it seems like what has been going on forever is just like when Israel is demolishing Gaza and shooting kids through the heart and all these women and children are dying, it seems like what they're creating is, and they're aware of it, is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. Right? They're creating more extremists and more hatred for it.
Right. You know the answer. I can tell you, having my own kids, if some group murdered my child, my toddler, I would do the most unthinkable things to retaliate.
I think that's part of being human.
Yeah, 100%. It's amazing to me how... I know they were raided by the FBI once. I think that was in the early 90s, right? And it's amazing to me that they have not, the FBI has not shut them down. Is that because they got that religious exemption and they're quote unquote a religion now?
Wasn't the first president of Israel? I believe he might have been the first president of Israel. Ben-Gurion? No, before him. He was, yes, yes, Haim Wiseman. Yeah. He was like a Zionist who came in and thought that basically we need to come in here and make the Muslims love us.
Like we're going to bring in all this innovation and treat them kindly and just make them to where they can't turn us away because we provide so much and improve their quality of life so much.
um and then after that i think ben gurion kind of his view of it was like no that's kind of like a the way that he i think the way correct me if i'm wrong but the way he looked at it was like you can't look at that that's like pre-911 post-911 like like he looked at like now that you have you know world war ii and the holocaust you can't look at it like that anymore now we have to look at it through the lens that they're looking at it now yeah
1994.
2021.
Yeah.
94.
So for people who may not know who Roland Griffiths is, you said he was the guy who spearheaded the whole psychedelic revolution. Can you explain for people how that happened and how he became to be?
Didn't he criticize soda companies for putting caffeine in there?
That's interesting, though. How did caffeine become such a common theme of soft drinks? Good question. Because the only reason I drink sodas is for the caffeine. Absolutely. I don't drink a soda for the taste. That's what Roland's at. If I'm drinking a Mountain Dew, obviously it tastes great. But I'm drinking a Mountain Dew because I'm going to get fucking jacked.
Strassman reads Hebrew, right? I think he reads ancient Hebrew.
Right, right, right, right. Yeah. So the spiritual practices organization? Council on Spiritual Practices. The Council on Spiritual Practices. And Jordan Peterson was a part of this? Yeah, yeah.
To launch the studies at Hopkins.
See, every time I hear him talk about this stuff on podcast, I mean, I know he's done podcasts with Ruck and Marirescu and he seems interested in stuff, but he seems to be more ignorant of it.
I agree. I feel the same way. I don't know what he's talking about. I think his main message is that religion is a framework for society, right?
The rest of it is... So like, are you saying, so you're saying like the human mind, the mystical mind, we like to fill in the gaps of shit we don't understand with things like God?
as um it's called religion it's about five or six essays and it's called religion as a countervailing force to mass mindedness or something and yeah yeah there was something i was talking about dennis mckenna a couple weeks ago when he was in here and i think it was a it was this was a union idea where he said that the human human consciousness is um it's like a giant archipelago where
There is above the water, right? You see a bunch of little islands of individual people.
And then below that, there's this giant, you know, volcano that's, it's all connected.
Yeah.
I think people, a lot of people replace God with aliens.
I had this dude in here, this gentleman in here, older man, by the name of Chris Bledsoe. You ever heard of him? No. He's a guy who lives in North Carolina.
i forget which part of carolina i want to say it's near goldsboro maybe no maybe i'm wrong anyways he lives in north carolina and uh he was seeing these crazy orbs all around the sky and he's filming him all the time and he was like showing posting these videos on these um what is the the ufo like the the american like ufo organization move on move on that's what it was Thanks, Steve.
So he was reporting on MUFON and showing these pictures. And all of a sudden he gets visited by like CIA and people that are in NASA, like legitimate people that work for NASA and the CIA. Like this is documented.
And they're becoming friends with him. They're befriending him. And then he gets John Alexander and these legendary like remote viewing people from that were like in the remote viewing program to like visit him. Like he has photos with all these people. They're inviting him to NASA.
According to him, they wanted to understand why he was seeing these things because they wanted to study them. They knew they were, these people believed they were aliens or religion or, and they wanted to understand why they were showing themselves to Chris.
Oh, they're all over. He has them all over his Instagram. And you've seen them. He literally came here to do a podcast with us. And he goes to me and Steven, he goes, he goes, me and you, we can go out, we'll go to the beach and I can summon these things. He takes us out to the beach. Bro, he took us to the... You can find the video, Steve.
He took me and Steven out to the beach the night before we did the podcast. Him and his daughter. And he's like praying to the heavens, like praying to God to bring these angels down to show us, right? Like, please show yourself to Danny. We're going to do this podcast tomorrow. I want him to be a believer and understand this. And he brought his video camera. Men...
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This fucking orb came out of the ocean and moved sideways, moved back the other way, and then disappeared again back into the ocean. And we got it all on video. I don't know what the fuck it was.
We've got the video.
We were.
Unless he hired somebody on a boat. He didn't know where I was going to take him. I just took him to a random restaurant on the beach over here. He had no idea what restaurant I was going to take him to. And unless he planted somebody with a boat, with a drone, with a lantern on it, like 500 yards off the beach.
I don't know if you would call it a crystal ball. It was just a light.
It was beyond the horizon.
I have no clue. I have no clue. I don't know. I don't know what to think it was. It was definitely, I know what it wasn't. It was not an airplane.
Right. It came off the horizon.
So the contrast right there is the ocean that stops.
It goes out. Yeah, it fades out. It fades out to nothing. And look at this one getting brighter.
Now watch. Now that one's going to go out.
Yeah.
So we saw air traffic coming in to go to Tampa airport, right? There's planes. There was planes coming over the beach, like landing on the airport. We knew what the planes were. These were nothing like the planes. They literally, they came up off the horizon, went one way, sometimes changed directions with the other way, and then just fizzled out to nothing.
what was the distance since you can't tell from the video whatever it was it was way out past the horizon it was like way it was way far i would say three miles yeah maybe three miles and before that happened you sat there and watched him summon it we watched him he was like saying please yeah i even saw a shooting star go right above my head and how long from him summoning it till it appeared
I would say about an hour and a half, maybe even two hours. So this is how I explain it. I'm like, yeah, something crazy. I saw something crazy I've never seen before. But at the same time, I've never sat and stared at the sky for two hours of my life, right? So how often do you stare at the sky and see like this?
if you stare at the sky all night long, maybe you'll always see this stuff.
Yeah. Go to his Instagram, Steve. Yeah.
So his idea is he's been through, he's been through his life. His life has been like, he's been through the most traumatic experiences ever. that i've ever heard of like he's been through so much in his life he was shot in the back by a shotgun hunting he literally there was a there was a point in the book where when he was when he was younger
His his wife or his girlfriend and him were at a party or he was supposed to meet. He was working and he was supposed to meet his girlfriend at a party and he was on his way there. He was late and on his way to the party or whatever. He was like really, really late. He saw a car that was completely rolled over on the side of the road by this like.
curve or whatever he went to go rescue the person the person was covered in blood the person died in his arms and he like called like was yelling people to call the ambulance to come save this person he couldn't even recognize this human being because it was like so destroyed and he found out that that was his wife that died in his arms but he had no clue and he was late to the party um the guy like went through he's been through so much trauma in his life he thinks that the trauma that he's been through
is what opened up some, some portal in his head to see aliens. And now he, and he also reports in his book, seeing this lady, this angel lady that like floats and shit and talks to him. But anyways, this is what the orbs are.
Yeah, there's audio. Click the bottom, right? There's a little, a little, there you go. You can, you can, right there. You can hear him like, right there. Watch. Come on.
Try that one. Yeah, try that one. Look at this.
Oh, my God. Did he really say Bigfoot Festival?
No. I've never heard anyone suggest... I mean, the most legitimate thing I've heard, and I don't know if you would even call this legitimate, but the...
Oh, so his son, his son's in a metal band.
Yeah. I think it's his son or his son-in-law is in a really big metal band and they tour. I think they might've been on tour with them or something.
Yeah, he's a funny guy. He's a fun guy. But, like, I don't know. I mean, could it be satellites maybe? Like low-orbit satellites?
If this was just some random guy posting videos, I wouldn't even think twice about it. But the fact that he's got literal CIA people and NASA people visiting him, taking photos with him, letting him publish his book with photos of them, talking about them. There's secret aerospace engineers that had to remain silent that had come and visit him and say crazy shit to him.
Like he's been through all kinds of weird top secret shit.
So why? I don't understand. That's just one of the most perplexing things to me about this story.
Yeah, but they also reinforce his beliefs. They're telling him what he's seeing is real.
Yeah. That video that Steven showed you in the beginning, we shot that the night before the podcast.
It was the ocean though.
Yeah. Yeah. It came from below the horizon.
He seems very level-headed. He definitely wasn't trying to convince me of anything. He was just telling me what he's been through. And I think for him...
those people in the government and the military confirming all this shit for him and like befriending him, I think makes him feel like, I mean, he's got some other stories where he was, he's literally at this party, this government party where the head of the CIA is there. And there's pictures with him in the head of the CIA. And some guy apparently had like a, like passed out.
And then Chris went to like heal him, like touched him and healed him back to life.
He's got healing powers too.
Right.
She beat me to the punch. Cause I want to meet him.
yeah he's an interesting dude that's incredible so i don't know i don't know what those orbs are but there's uh i don't know i want i would love to talk to some of these people these folks in the military and the cia what's the range on this thing is it like bluetooth does it how could he call one over what about if he wanted to send one up to the window he said they've come up yeah he said they come up like within 10 feet of him before
What the?
Yeah.
It's crazy, man. I've got to read this book. It's crazy. I've got to get you in touch with this fellow.
Maybe you guys could collaborate. Yeah. How did we get on this topic in the first place?
We're talking about God and UFOs and aliens.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not only that, I think some people replace their God, the mystery of God, with extraterrestrials coming here.
He said he saw a UFO in La Charrera when he was tripping on mushrooms.
So I don't know. I'm not. Are you familiar with John Mack, the Harvard psychologist?
Yeah. He interviewed hundreds of people who had abduction experiences. Oh, really? And he interviewed them and hypnotized some of them, I think, and tried to figure out what was going on with the abduction experience. Because they were also similar.
How old were you at the time?
You were 25.
Man, I got to hit that place up. I go up to that part of Florida often, New Smyrna.
Steve, pull up Casadega. I need to see this shit.
what's up Travis what's happening thanks for coming brother thank you very much thanks for having me of course dude your background is fascinating how you got into journalism and how you got into this crazy weird long investigation on religion and psychedelic research and the psychedelic renaissance and the stuff with the immortality key for people who don't know who you are just can you give us like a background on how you got into journalism and what happened with you being involved in that John Hopkins psychedelic study
Oh, really? It took three years for the time you saw it?
Okay. So this study, this John Hopkins study, was supposed to be like an empirical, conservative, straight-laced, scientific- study into what psychedelics were actually chemically or mechanically doing to the brain. Like how, like how, what is actually happening when you enter these psychedelic states, right? Yeah.
And Roland died before this thing got published.
So people in different universities across the world or institutions can say, look, this legitimate guy, this scholar published a paper. So that gives us license to do it, basically. So we don't look like cuckoos.
And what was it like when you, so you applied for it and they brought you in and like, what was the process of being introduced into this?
So he was into the religious crap.
So when you say religious bullshit with these guys, what you're saying is they have a fundamental belief that psychedelics can change the world. Yes. And that everyone needs to take psychedelics to fix the ales of humanity.
It should be mandatory for people.
Medical religion or the medical side and the religious side. Medical and spiritual.
And they're so tightly entangled, it's almost impossible to separate them.
Yeah. So do you think it would be a bad thing if psychedelics became ubiquitous and more people used them? Let me give you just a crazy hypothetical example. So say if Trump and Putin and Xi Jinping all sat and went together and did some ayahuasca retreat together. You think that would be a bad thing?
I mean, do you think, what's the probability of it de-escalating a global nuclear war?
And why did these people bring in all of these religious leaders from different, like they brought in like a Christian preacher, a Jewish guy, a Muslim, what was going on with that? And what were they looking for with those people?
So they're trying to find common commonalities between all of these people's experiences from different religions and different spiritual backgrounds.
had anything to do with the foundation of Christianity? Do you think there is a link to some of these pagan drug cults and the shit they were practicing before Christianity came on the scene that spawned Christianity in a way?
Or Christianity was a spinoff of those. They borrow shit from those drug cults.
Right, but it seems like Christianity cherry-picked a bunch of things from all these ancient myths and mysteries for the idea of Jesus, the God that dies and then rises again, right?
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Yeah, like Persephone. This is in Ruck's book.
Well, that just means it's true if they got rid of it.
These guys read these languages, right? But there's a lot of other people who read these languages.
It's not that absurd. Yes, it is. I don't think it's that absurd. Because I haven't had Graham Hancock on here, but I don't know if you're familiar with the debate he did with Flint Dibble.
I agree with you. I agree with you. But I also had Dibble in here, and he specializes in Athens, in archaeology in Athens, and he has a little bit of classical Greek in his...
in his background and and we were talking about atlantis and he perfectly systematically dismantled the atlantis theory yeah for me like made perfect sense i was completely on board with him yeah i thought it made perfect sense as well when he was debating graham on his lost ancient civilization that was Although he did get a lot of shit wrong in that debate.
There were some shit where Flint exaggerated shit with 250,000 ships or a million ships. That was way the fuck off.
But like, so... Again, there are things in that podcast where Flint acts like what he does is clever, right? He got 90% of it spot on. I agree with him on it. But there were, to be fair, there were points in that podcast where he took things and said it as if it was gospel when he was completely wrong about it, right?
It doesn't make Hancock right.
So I think there's a psychological thing that happens with people like Flint who have spent their entire lives, him and his father and probably his grandfather, who knows, in archaeology, in the academic part of this stuff. drinking and eating the gruel, sludging through the mud, doing all the boring shit, reading all the boring shit.
And then like, you know, next thing you know, you're 40 years old. No one knows who the fuck you are. And you've been in the mud doing this archeology your whole life. Then you have people like Graham Hancock who go on Joe Rogan. They make documentaries. They write all these books. They're making millions of dollars. Everybody knows who they are. And you're a flip devil. Nobody knows you from Adam.
Exactly.
So you're saying he's bitter. Absolutely he's bitter.
But to us... I'm not giving Graham a pass because of that. I'm just saying you have to understand the whole dynamic of this thing.
I think he believes a lot of the stuff he says. He might. I think that there's legitimate questions in some of the stuff. Also, Flint gave him credit. He goes, a lot of the people I know in archaeology that are legit archaeologists, they only got into archaeology because of Graham. I think it's the same thing with Hillman.
I think the shit that Hillman says, I think he's inspiring people to prove him wrong and to learn Greek and to read these ancient languages and revive this shit.
Yeah, I think, I think there's something to that, but so in that, in that Flint podcast, like he was really, really, uh, I was following him and I was agreeing with him and he was really laying it out in a very cohesive manner with all this stuff about Greek and Atlantis and, and how it's probably completely bullshit. And going back to Eric Von Dan again, but then I showed him these things.
I don't know if you're familiar with these. These are like dynastic Egyptian. That's a 3D print of an Egyptian vase that was, according to the academics and the Egyptologists, was created around the same time as the dynastic Egyptians, which was about 4,500 to 5,000 years ago. Yeah. when they only had copper chisels and pounding stones to create things. Right. And there's even depictions.
There's like, uh, there's depictions, drawings and stuff on caves and, and tablets where they show how they made these and they show them like going like this on wheels and stuff. But, This guy who lives down the street from here, Matt Bell. Yeah, here they are. That's how the Egyptologists believe that these were made, right? So these are made out of granite.
Some of the hardest, like rose granite and red granite, right? Some of the hardest stones on earth. And he had these measured on a laser light scanner thing at some big aerospace company. And This vessel is the ones that he purchased. The real ones from ancient Egypt are perfectly symmetrical within like one, one thousandth of a human hair. Like impossible.
It would have to have been made on a CNC machine today, like on a computer. And, and there's, it's impossible. Like how the did they make these? And these handles are made out of granite. And I asked Flint this and, And like he creates this. He is like this. To me, it's like a cop out where he says, oh, it's bullshit.
People like him don't deserve to talk about this stuff or question this stuff because he's buying these vessels that are contributing to cartels that are selling them. And it's this underground black market. And I want to be associated. I don't even want to be in the same room with one of these ancient relics. This is what Dibble told you? This is what Dibble told me.
And it's the same thing he's doing with Graham trying to call him a Nazi.
And when people come in here and they're unwilling or unable to say the words, I don't know. It's always, it's a red flag.
So, yeah, going back to Hillman and Ruck. So, I mean, these guys, you're saying because just because Hillman and Ruck believe that drugs were everywhere in antiquity and probably had something to do with Christianity. No.
You interviewed a lot of people who think otherwise, right? I mean.
You have to, right? And most of these people that are saying otherwise are in universities and have- Some of them.
Was there a point, at what point did you start to question the drive behind the study and the intention behind the study?
Yeah, kind of.
So the flood, the flood myths that I mean, that's and that's something that Graham Hancock talks about, too. That's one of his biggest questions is like, why are the flood myths everywhere? You know, and his hypothesis is that there was a cosmic impact at the end of the ice age. There was the younger dries, which I think that's pretty legit, man. I like that theory. I'm a believer. Yeah.
And then, you know, it melted the ice caps. I mean, and that created a big flood that took out a lot of the megafauna in the North American continent.
Not so much in Africa, which is why there's a lot of big megafauna there still.
And none in here. Could be. And then maybe that was something that was around the world which inspired those flood myths.
Right. You see? But it does make a lot of sense, though. Like, the, like... Sure. A DMT experience is like dying. Like, there's definitely clear... I don't... I wouldn't have to read literature on it or hear other people's experience first to have that myself. Like, I didn't experience that just because I read about it first. You know what I mean? Like, it didn't influence the way I experienced it.
Like, it was definitely like a dying and being born again experience for sure. And it was definitely like... It was definitely like seeing God or meeting God or understanding like the creation, like you're flying through this universe, this like you're flying, like having the universe ripped open and flying through light arteries, you know what I mean?
And seeing like the foundational creation of what we are. And it's like down to the very fiber of your being.
It seemed, it is to me at least, it seems like a very... To a lot of people it is.
Allegro, oh yeah, I'm familiar with it. The Allegro stuff. And he ties the connection of the mushroom, basically how it's not pollinated like a normal plant is. It's just it comes out of the ground through the mycelia from the rain, and the rain is the sperm of God, and the mushroom is like the virgin. Right. Well, the mushroom is a – Or not the virgin, but like the immaculate conception.
You did it for how long?
So we have no, no idea. No scientists have any idea of what like chemically or mechanically is actually happening. Like, like what are these pathways?
Not going to figure it out. So, yeah, that's built into the human psyche. If we can't even understand it with science, it has to be something. Like, what if it is? What if we are? contacting some other realm or some other beings that are from a different plane of existence, right? What if that's true?
Right. To automatically dismiss that based on science is anti-scientific by definition.
What happened?
And that's only anecdotal is your point. That's not with everybody.
Right, the press.
Yeah, it gives you like a strobing effect and shit. I've never done it, but I heard stories. Yeah, it's popular down here in Florida.
So is MAPS doing the same thing?
I've never heard a veteran talk about a negative experience with MDMA or psychedelics.
How much money could there possibly be to make from pushing psilocybin? Like all the big pharmaceutical companies, they don't do any of that stuff.
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It's just ketamine?
And there was this amazing New York Times story to where- There was more drug overdoses, I think, in human history than during the pandemic. There was like more than ever.
I think it was in Orlando, wasn't it? No, he was in L.A. Oh, okay.
Yes, I remember that now.
It was a different guy who died.
I think the pushback comes from this being like federally illegal, right? When there's so much other shit, these pharmaceutical companies push that are way more dangerous.
Yeah. Then how many million people?
That's what the Sackler family said. Like they're like that. Yeah. Yeah. Some of this stuff is sinister compared to psychedelics or marijuana, you know, or even like DMT, which there's like literally, if you want to really get scientific, there's DMT in a plant, right? There's DMT in every living animal on earth.
So like the fact that you can make this shit illegal when it's, if you want to put it on a scale of how dangerous it is, it's way lower than some of the shit that's federally legal and prescribed by doctors on the regular.
So I think that's where most of like these people kind of get jihad about it. Right. And they want to push it and it becomes like the, it becomes their identity.
Right. Right.
Yeah, there's definitely nuance and everything. You can't broad brush this stuff by saying it's just good for everyone and everyone needs to take it. And then another thing that...
is scary which i didn't even realize because we had this conversation on the phone the other day and you know one of the things that you're afraid of is that if churches or or preachers are given or whoever they are the heads of these religious institutions are federally licensed to handle and distribute these drugs I thought initially, I'm like, okay, that sounds great, right?
Maybe give these people drugs and it's going to make everything better. But you pointed out that when you make these people who are already – like you're having these people that are going to church and being preached on by these – are connected to God. And now you inject –
hallucinogens to them and psychedelics to these people who are able to put you on psychedelics, which you're already probably vulnerable if you're there in the first place. But now if you're on psychedelics, you're becoming way more vulnerable. And imagine the control.
that these people would have if not only these people are subscribing to this religion and believing that you are connected to God, but now you put them under the state, a trance, right? Like I can see how that would be a very slippery slope.
They're 10 minutes from here. The headquarters. Are they really? Yeah. The flag building is like 10 minutes from here. Wow.
And they're being weaponized. That's the thing we haven't even talked about yet.
Since the Cold War, they've been weaponized with shit like MKUltra and all this other shit. Yes. You can absolutely – there's been studies on how you can break down the human mind and mind control somebody, create a Manchurian candidate or whatever. I mean, Charles Manson. Have you read Chaos, that book Chaos?
like yeah they've been studying this stuff in the context of war right so imagine if you holy man so this is what's happening danny is if you read their literature you don't have to make anything up just read their book and they say western civilization is failing how's book what are you talking about well if so what by the way what do you what is the new reformation
What?
They believe that it increases- All the Russians are on meth? The casualties are way higher on the Russian side.
Right, right. And so were the Pearl Harbor, the Kamikazes. Go down a little bit to where the real article's at.
Okay.
No, it's not. You just got to close that. All right. Enter your email.
Okay, let me see the headline. The Ukrainian military is experimenting with psychedelic drug Ibogaine to treat traumatic brain injury. Okay, Ukraine is working with the founder of the Yippie movement to provide Ibogaine to soldiers on and off the battlefield. Scroll down. Okay, what were you pointing out?
Ibogaine's most famous American patient may well be Hunter Biden, who has battled his own drug addiction with help of Ibogaine treatment at a Mexican clinic. At low doses, Bell, Beal, whatever, how do you spell that?
Edge detection.
So you're saying, so what about the DXM is so similar to Robitussin?
That's the ingredient in Robitussin that causes the trip.
Right. So you would have there would have to be like a very fine line you can't cross. Right. If you're if you're taking psychedelics to where you don't want to be like tripping too hard.
Type in DARPA and psychedelics, see what comes up.
In 2020, they put 23 million.
DARPA is exploring ways to remove hallucinatory side effects from psychedelic medicines while retaining their therapeutic benefits.
Yeah, why wouldn't DARPA and the – that's such a silly thing to overlook. Why wouldn't they be dropping millions of dollars into this stuff? If you can chemically enhance cognition – And effectiveness on the battlefield with drugs. Why the f*** wouldn't you spend a ton of money on it?
Right. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
And one-sided. Yes. Well, not necessarily one-sided, but it's been like a one-front thing.
That's Twitter for you.
Oh, is this what you, I think you sent me this, didn't you? Did I? Correspondence with, can this be on the show or no?
correspondence with travis after 70 minute after a 70 minute call he's well intentioned but his objectives are unclear and he may be prone to take extreme positions i will not pursue roland is that an odd text he accidentally sent it and then he sent back a thing saying oh i was just taking personal notes over our phone call that was nothing what did he mean by that
Well, obviously it was an email meant for somebody else, right?
Bullshit, yeah.
That's weird. That is weird.
Did you ask him what he meant by that?
We can talk about this in the show or no?
Okay.
So you asked him about it? What did he say?
Why did he say that?
Or did you think it had a perpetual effect?
based on everything we know about MKUltra in the 50s and 60s and 70s, do you think it's unreasonable to suggest that they're still doing something that we don't know about today?
Yeah, well, you know, Google was literally created and incubated under the umbrella of the CIA and the NSA. Sure. Like Sergey Brin, there's a great article on this on Substack. I forget the name of the guy who did it. He did a series on it, on basically how Sergey was being visited at Stanford by multiple CIA people. Yeah. And NSA people.
And he was getting his funding from them directly for their search engine, whatever it was called, the name of the software that made the search engine work and some of the other fundamental mechanisms of Google itself.
So if they were involved in funding it and creating it, why wouldn't they have just full control over it? Like this is a big difference between...
No, this isn't it.
Larry Ellison was the guy who was just talking. There was just a huge thing that came out with him recently where he was talking about AI, right?
Him and Sam Altman together.
What was that recent news about Larry Ellison? He was standing right there next to Trump giving a speech. Can you find that, Steve?
Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what it is. Yeah, I know what song you're talking about. Trump's AI deal fueling early cancer detection from Oracle's Larry Ellison. Trump said this project is the largest AI infrastructure by far in history. And Elon hates these guys.
Well, Elon's doing it open source. These guys want to make it. And then they also open AI. Sam Altman's trying to take it private, trying to make it from... being a open source nonprofit to a private company. So they're trying to do, one of the most exciting things we're working on, again, using these tools that Sam and Masa are providing is our cancer vaccine.
Ellison said during a news conference with Trump in the Roosevelt room, Ellis says that early cancer detection can be provided with simple blood tests. Artificial intelligence can leverage a look at the blood test to find out cancers that are seriously threatening.
So they can take your blood and they can process it through DNA sequencing and find out what cancers you're predisposed to and then create a custom-tailored vaccine for you to avoid cancer. That sounds promising.
Yeah. Okay, going back to the immortality key and what we were talking about with this new reformation. Yeah. So I reread the immortality key again over the last couple days trying to get a good gist of what – what it was about. And I've, I've only got about halfway through it.
So I probably missed some of the key parts where, where you're, you're basically saying that what the, the goal behind that book, the immortality key by Brian mirror rescue is to merge the
I'm familiar with him from The Road to Eleusis.
It's like the Da Vinci Code for trying to uncover this ancient chemical evidence of the ergot fungus that's grown on wheat or barley in these vessels that were found in Eleusis, right? To support his hypothesis that... Basically, it's confirming and kind of building off of Ruck's Road to Eleusis with Hoffman and Wasson, trying to just do a deeper dive on what the actual science is behind that.
Can we evaluate, can we confirm that they were mixing psychedelics with this wine that they were drinking and finding God this way?
Which is fucking fascinating. I mean, it is fascinating.
Now, is there any, and I didn't, I can't remember from the book, but is there, did we ever find any sort of hard evidence of psychedelics in these vessels? Or is there any hard evidence that there were psychedelics used in Eleusis?
Other than the texts like Hillman would claim and that Rock would claim. Yes. Right, there's no hard evidence though. None.
With the whole thing combined, was there any sort of change you noticed in yourself after the full experiment was completed? Was there any sort of different outlook or any sort of different insight that you took from it?
Oh, it was in Tampa, University of Tampa. It was an Egyptian mug from the god of Bess or something like that.
Yeah, and they actually – they found – vaginal mucus in this mug. And when was that mug from, Stephen? Did they date it? I think they dated it in that article. Oh, here it is. That's the mug right there. That's the god of Besson. Go down and tell us. Let's see when they say it was from.
Okay, the vessels in the shape of Bess played an important part of the cult as a way from the 16th century BCE to the 5th century CE. This particular example dates the...
polemic Roman period from which the 3rd century BCE to the 3rd century CE when produced such objects peaked when the production of such objects peaked and then go down to where it says what was actually found in it psychoactive drugs human blood there you go they found evidence of human blood bodily fluids such as oral or vaginal mucus and breast milk
Yeah.
And in your Reason article, You claim that some of the people that Brian interviewed and used for the research behind the immortality key is people like Ruck or like Hillman. They were not – Brian did not explain to them his hypothesis or his – Wasn't his hypothesis. His motivation or his spin on the book.
And you can tell by talking to Hillman that he very much has a disdain for religion and Christianity.
You wanted to interview Ruck and Hillman about it?
That's interesting too, right? The foundational beliefs and values and ideologies of the people like Ruck and Hillman you know, and it's, it goes to even like biblical scholars, like lots of biblical scholars are religious and believe in our Christian.
And they're kind of like, they're going to school and studying this stuff and it's supposed to be scientific, but they're also looking at stuff that only bolsters their beliefs. They already have.
And on the opposite side, you have people like Chris, like rock and almond who are like very anti-Christian and anti-religious, but they're both looking at the same texts and both coming up with their own, And Amin, to his credit, he says he's not trying to get to the intention of the author. He says that he's only trying to say what the texts say.
When I asked him about it, he's like, no, I don't care what the intention of the author was. I don't care what their ideas were. All I want to understand is what the texts say and what the context of it was.
There obviously is a whole group of classical scholars that are anti-Christian.
Why did you believe that? Why do you think you believe that?
Yeah. Can you explain that part of it? Like, how did he, how did Brian get into meeting the Pope and who was involved in going to meet the Pope and what were the motivations behind that?
So, Brian claims that he's Catholic.
Okay. So that would explain that then. And, but he's never tried psychedelics. I understand why he would lie. I mean, if, if, if that's a lie, I understand that lie because he wants to maintain credibility and not have to be, you know, when people aren't forthcoming about fortunate.
Which is obviously not true because he does know those people.
And he never said anything, never reached out after the articles were published or anything like that?
Right? What is that paper that you were citing that has never been released or is never going to see the light of day? That was the religious studies. That was the one with all the religious folks.
That is odd, right?
That's a funny way of putting it.
The perennialism idea is very interesting. It is, isn't it? I think the way you described it, how everyone speaks a different language, but the fundamental...
And then— Like they cherry-picked certain things.
Yeah.
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I mean, it's easy to see the goodness of it all.
you know what should be fun what's the strategy to push this through you see so yeah it's all silicon valley money no question there you go what is this steve that's it man good psychedelic science funders uh collaborative look at the team psfc is a community of philanthropists dedicated to supporting psychedelic medicine and science oh wow who is there like a oh yeah let's see the team the board there you go you got bronner the soap man
David Bronner, Graham Boyd, and Michael Cotton, Joe Green.
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What is that? Can I see the statue? Let's see what the immortality key statue looks like.
That is pretty insane, man.
Wow.
The chalice to Eleusis.
And then what happens when the government gets control of it? It's one thing making it just legal, and it's another thing when the government gets its hands on it.
What does the world look like with one religion, a one-world religion?
Yeah. You see? Yeah. I like what you're doing, following the money, because usually following the money is going to lead you to the intentions behind this stuff and the truth of what's going on.
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When you interview people for this stuff, do you, do you usually meet them in person or do you often just do it over the phone or email or?
Yeah. You know? Wow, man, this has been crazy. This has been a mind fuck of a conversation and this super interesting stuff. Um, so thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. Thank you. It's an honor. Um, what else do you have like in the pipeline that you're interested in looking at? And, uh,
Yeah. That reminds me. Has Brian ever publicly talked about his meeting with the Pope or is he trying to, has that been a secret?
Oh, really? Yeah. And it's all in that article on Reason. Can you bring up that article? It's on the Reason website?
What's the name of the article?
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It's beautiful, man. And how can people get in touch with you?
Okay. Beautiful, man.
All right. Well, thanks again for coming, man.
We got to get you on a flight.
Goodbye, world.
Back to the show.
Really?
Where?
Really?
Right.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Wow, man.
What the fuck?
Our last podcast was bananas. We covered all kinds of crazy shit. What have you been up to, bro?
Bryce DeWitt, Lewis Witten, or Ed Witten.
Yes.
The whole story, the origin story of being an ER doctor to all of a sudden getting a call to go to dinner with the head of the CIA seems a little suspect to me.
And this is kind of similar to the idea of that specter organization in the Bond era.
Holy shit. It is a freaking swastika.
Was there like an older version of it that was even more similar? Because, I mean, that's pretty close.
Ford Ford was building shit for them even after the war.
Type in Ford logo swastika. Let's see what that comes up with.
Oh, looky there.
Can you punch in?
No, that's not it.
Find some more of it.
And who is the guy Rudolph Hess?
And he was doing what? What was his title?
What's your theory?
The idea of this is called, what is it? It's called like a geomagnetic pole flip or something like that?
Where the earth's outer shell can move as a hole over the mantle, like the skin of an orange.
Also, to linger on Atlantis for a minute. According to this long chain and transmission with Solon and all this stuff, Atlantis would have been how long ago again?
No, it's slipping like literally. What is it? We talked about it on that Jimmy Corsetti podcast.
It's migrating like miles per year.
But then wouldn't there be some sort of evidence of it if the Nazis were there back then? Like wouldn't some of the stuff, would they find pyramids? What did they find there?
46.
What do you make of the argument that Plato was full of shit and he wasn't a historian? He was just making up hypothetical allegories, like the allegory of the cave. Was Atlantis just another... philosophical allegory like the cave?
Okay.
Yes, it is.
Yeah. Also the land, the ground that it was built on, something about it, the way they built the foundations of it, the stone is like super flexible and malleable.
Whether you want to call it Atlantis, I agree. Who cares what you call it? I agree that's evidence of a super advanced civilization that was here before we have any kind of explanation for it.
During the Ice Age, it would have been massive.
See if you can find a graphic depiction of what Antarctica would have looked like during the Ice Age, the last Ice Age.
Yes. That would be the technical way of putting it.
That's insane. And that on the left, that connects down to South America?
How long do you think Hitler lived after the war?
Ha, ha, ha, ha.
Yeah, it is such a mindfuck, the history of this stuff and how useful certain people were, like Skorzeny to other.
Yeah.
And what do you make of this recent stuff that Greer is talking about with this psychic, psionic, stranger things type stuff where they're kidnapping people that are left-handed, young, from other countries, bringing them here to – and giving them drugs, he said. Dopaminergic drugs to summon these things and crash them. So they're trying to – so first of all, why –
If these things are so advanced, how the fuck are they crashing them with psychic abilities? And second of all, who are these people doing, conducting these operations in your mind?
And who is the pilot in your mind?
What is the connection between, and you're the one who told me about this. By the way, before I conducted that Whitley Strieber podcast, you gave me a whole history of Whitley Strieber over like two hours on the phone, which was fascinating. And I don't know anybody who has gone so deep on the history of Whitley.
And when I brought up, you mentioned to me told me to bring up with Whitley about his history in Mexico, what was going on with him in Mexico. And when I asked him that on the podcast, he said, he like straightened up and he's like, I don't want to talk about that.
So this was some sort of program to induce trauma in kids? Pre-MKUltra. Pre-MKUltra.
And how did that, what, what did that psychological traumatic experience that he went through in Mexico? What, what was it specifically? What were they doing to him?
Right.
Okay. And how did this, how does this connect to all his experiences with like having sex with aliens?
So these beings that he was experiencing were real.
Crazy shit, Jason Giorgiani. Thanks again for coming, man. That was a wild follow-up to our first podcast. I didn't think it'd get any crazier. It was indeed, Danny. It was. Tell people about your new book, where they can find it, where they can get in touch with you, all that good stuff.
What is the general idea of the seitanion?
That's Philosophy of the Future.
It's called Satanion.
Oh. Which one is this?
Okay. Yeah.
Yeah. End of February.
I emailed it to you, Steve.
Hanging out with Jack Sarfati. I saw the photo.
Spring chicken.
Gorgeous. What's up with Saturn on top of the devil horns?
Oh, it's a UFO.
It looks more like Saturn to me.
We got to go do another podcast at dinner. I got a lot more. I got way more questions. Let's do it. You got to get going. All right. Thanks again, man. I'll link everything below.
All right. Good night, world.
65.
Yeah, but isn't it... Yeah, I understand that that's sketchy about John Mack, but do you think it's... Do you think it's probable that he was whacked? That it wasn't just an accident? Yeah, 100%. Really?
Yeah.
Carl Wolf with a K. Claimed to have top secret NASA photos showing alien structures on the moon. He worked with a tactical air command at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia and had top secret clearance. Okay, in 2001, Wolf made a startling claim that NASA was hiding evidence of artificial structures on the far side of the moon. He died in a bike accident on October 10th.
2018 in New York after being hit by a tractor trailer.
Quick little quick question. I don't want to derail this. Yeah, go ahead. But have you heard of a guy named Hal Pauvenmeier? Okay. Continue. Okay.
This is his college?
They come from Medea, right?
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Yeah?
That's so strange. We had a guy on here named David Morehouse. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He was a remote viewer. He was a part of these programs for a long time. I think it was in the 70s.
Psychic Warrior. Early on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he said that he remote viewed the moon and there was nothing. He's like, it's all bullshit. There's nobody there. Yeah.
Well, and here's another thing. If there was a city, why is it only on the dark side?
So because whoever built it doesn't want us to see it?
Out from the center is hollow inside the moon. There was a recent NASA article that came out. I think it was on the NASA website where they said they discovered caves like underground caverns in the moon, which would suggest that it was like maybe like a honeycomb structure on the inside or something like that.
He was the first remote viewer, right?
Yeah, one. Maybe it was two. I don't know.
That's right. That's the convenience of being a Nazi Mossad agent.
I cover this in my book, Closer Encounters. And did that basically get rid of the atmosphere? Is that responsible for how like the atmosphere is almost non-existent on Mars?
Jesus.
65.
Yes.
If you put the moon directly between us and the sun, it perfectly occludes the diameter of the sun. Exactly. Do we know if there's any other moons like that? No, there's no other moon that produces it. None.
We're talking about roughly how long ago? 100 million?
They knew the Earth was there. It was too volatile, too unstable. I'm sure the equinox is not as stable as it is now.
What other things about the moon, like other than like we mentioned the distance from the sun to the moon and how it perfectly occludes the sun from our perspective, but like what other things about our moon are exclusive to the moon?
We know that no other moons are hollow? Yes, we know it.
And do we know, do we observe the craters on other moons to see how similar they are to our moon or how different they are than our moon?
How many moons does Mars have?
Look at that. Mascons, short for mass concentrations, are regions of the moon's surface with a higher gravitational pull than the surrounding areas. These anomalies were first identified in the 1960s. Holy shit.
We got to make sure. We got to keep you on point here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What do you make of the post-game press conference after the moon landing where all the astronauts are sitting there? They look like they're on a hostage tape.
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Yeah.
Exactly. There was a, we've watched this interview multiple times on previous podcasts where there is, I think it's the head of NASA is being talked, he's being interviewed in front of the Senate. And they're talking about China being, how they had a plan to map or explore the dark side of the moon or whatever.
And they asked him like, if they, if we plan on doing it too, and he goes, no, we're not interested in doing that. We have no interest in the dark side.
People have different opinions online. I don't know who to believe.
Yes.
Yeah, but – OK, maybe. But who would they make the deal with in the United States? That's the thing. There's two parts of the United States. There's the idealistic view of the United States and then there's the real people who are running the show behind the scenes in the United States. And they probably are very envious of China's totalitarian surveillance state that they live under. So –
What do you think it would be like to be a person who is at the highest of levels in one of these secret super compartmentalized private aerospace companies that has and you you are aware of the deepest darkest secrets of reversing whatever reverse engineered spaceships alien contact where they are everything like to be that person
going to work, coming home, having dinner with your wife, tucking your kids in, what would that do to you? What would that do to your psychology?
This new stuff that's coming out with these new whistleblowers. By the way, I predicted it.
Is Tucker Carlson a part of the Collins elite?
Yeah, the story of that guy, Michael Herrera, that is straight out of Stranger Things.
Where they basically have a chip installed in their head, and when they go to work, they go up the elevator. I've heard about it. It shuts them off from their mind in the civilian world, and then they wake up in their mind in their work environment on their floor where they're severed. So it's like they're living these two parallel lives.
Yeah, exactly.
The Maniac and the Iliac.
Yes.
I have argued... They had a spot in Florida they were working on some stuff, didn't they? They were all over the place.
What's the size comparison from the moon to the earth?
Yeah, let's not.
Yeah. 1.23% mass.
So what kind of stuff have you been writing?
The moon is one quarter the size of the Earth in diameter, right?
So isn't that weird also, by the way? Find the mass. See if chat GPT will give you the mass.
1.23.
1.2.
And... So it says to illustrate, if the Earth were hollow, it would take 50 moons to fill it. But it's less than 2% the volume.
So the earth is going to weigh about a moon more than it weighs now.
Yeah.
So all the data on earth right now, if you could combine all of it. Less than one kilogram. Less than a kilogram.
In 300 something years.
Unless we can find another way to store data. Yes. Like off the Earth, maybe. Sure.
I mean, kind of.
Yeah, yeah. The galaxies have different masses and they bend light.
Yeah, I understand that.
Right, right.
That supports the simulation theory.
That we're living inside of a computer program.
dark matter is the program that we're living in.
Which you're saying is the same thing as data. Information. The stuff that we store, information that is stored on hard drives. That's right.
Don't forget Flynn Dibble.
Right.
Perfectly symmetrical. Yeah. How to be a man on a computer.
Oh, my God. I had this guy on here from the NSA, Tom Drake, and he was explaining that they have... Do you remember, Steve, what he said? He said they have like acres and acres out in the desert somewhere. I want to say like in Nevada or in Wyoming.
It was somewhere in the Midwest where they have just like farms after farms after farms of these massive hard drives that are collecting all of the surveillance data that they're using. From satellites, from phones, from literally every single potential way that NSA can collect data on people. Is it Utah? Yeah, Utah. That's it. The Utah Data Center, known as the Bumbleheave location.
The facility spans 1 million square feet and includes 100,000 square feet tier. Tier 3 Mission Critical Data Center. Wow. Designed to store vast amounts of data estimated to be on the order of exabytes or larger to support comprehensive national security initiative.
Data center uses the Cray XC30 supercomputer capable of scaling workloads of more than 100 petaflops or 100 trillion calculations each second. Look at the picture. Can you pull up a photo of it like on images?
Crazy.
This reminds me, Steve, can you pull up my Twitter page real quick? I want to show you this photo I found of Jacques Vallée last night. I think it's very appropriate. Just go to X and just go to my account page. There's a whole article about it too.
Right.
Or it's going to become a magnetic anomaly and throw off the spin of the earth somehow.
This is so crazy, man.
Yep. Yeah. So, well, I mean, there's a lot of companies that were still around today that had a lot, did a lot of dark shit with the Nazis, right?
Well, but those people are all dead and like the company's still alive.
Right, and you're one of like a dozen people on Earth who have this information.
That's not it. That's it right there. That's what you were saying last time. Scroll down. Scroll down. Right there. Click that photo. Look at that. Jacques Vallée with Alistair Crowley.
That's what Stephen Greer said. I'm sure you've heard of Mike Masters. You've read his books. Of course. That's the best. That is the best, most comprehensive explanation as to why these things are…
Sure, but generally the idea coming from an anthropological background is that for a being to come from another star system or another Goldilocks planet to have two arms, two legs, upright hominid, brains on top of the eyes, it would have to be the exact same conditions that Earth is under with the atmosphere, with everything like that.
And it would be like, as to how rare we are on Earth, we're like 0001% of the species on Earth. that look the way we do and we're able to develop technology to get off the earth. So you extrapolate that into the universe, it's like virtually impossible to have another being that looks so similar to us.
Okay.
That's what I meant. That's what I meant. I'm sorry. Alistair Crowley was long dead. That's what I meant. Jacques Vallée and Anton LaVey.
Right.
Apparently they would have dinner parties and play Donkey Kong together.
Yeah, that's what the article says. Well. But that's fascinating because Jacques Vallée always talks about how he seems to be – hyper-interested in the whole angels and demons stuff.
You're combining your theory with it.
Yeah, the word he used was, he tried to use the word quantum entanglement for saying that. Anyways, I got to take a leak real quick. Yeah. Let's take a quick break. Let's take a break. We'll be right back, folks. All right, we're back. We were getting deep. Where were we?
Yes, yes. Okay, dark matter, and we were in the resonic, or morphic resonance.
So saying like how a monkey can figure out how to make a tool in Australia and simultaneously it happens in North America at the same time.
Also, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but there was also studies that were done where they taught the rats the mazes and And then they like chopped out a portion of their brain and they were able to accurately figure out the maze again. Or they flipped their brain upside down, like completely scrambled their brains. And they remembered the maze.
All right, Jason Giorgiani, thank you for coming, man. Good to see you, brother.
Like the Tupac thing, where they got the Tupac performing in front of the crowd and they put a hologram right there. Have you seen that? No, I haven't seen that. Show them that. Show them the Tupac.
Why not? What's your problem with Tupac, bro?
The laser is consciousness.
Oh, I understand what you're saying.
That makes sense.
So then what is consciousness?
So these people are religious types. Fanatically. Religious fanatics. Yeah, from the Air Force. You'd have to be to maintain this worldview or this view of the phenomena.
What do you make of Jung's idea of consciousness? How he explained it as like this archipelago. He explained consciousness, human consciousness as like this giant connected big thing, this big rock or big island or whatever. And there's water above it. And there's all these little islands sticking out. We are each individual islands of our own consciousness, our own ego or whatever.
But below the ocean, it's this whole archipelago island that's connected, right? And it's all one thing.
What do you think makes some of these individuals who are able to do some of this consciousness stuff, like whether it be people in the Stargate program doing remote viewing or whether it be some of these folks that these whistleblowers are talking about doing these psionic psychic takeovers of UFOs? Is there something fundamental about certain people that gives them this ability?
Like I know, for example, this guy David Morehouse came in here. He got shot in the head, right? He got a stray bullet, hit him in the helmet, like knocked him unconscious, and he had severe TBI. And that's when they admitted him to the Stargate program. But other people seem to, like Ingo Swann or like Uri Geller, seem to be just like innately born with this ability.
The basal ganglia.
And also, I think Michael Herrera was saying that some of the people that they got on that mission had just survived an earthquake in Indonesia.
That's a distinct factor. I would imagine that that was because they were not a part of this civilized technical world that we live in. They're more in tune to nature, right?
It's interesting. I've heard people who've come on the podcast describe the experience of going down to the Amazon rainforest and being down there for weeks or even months. And they're saying once you're down there isolated from this hyper-evolved technical world we live in in America...
and you get out of it into nature out there, something happens to you where your body just becomes in tune with the jungle. It's weird where you can sense dangers. I'm not talking about ESP type stuff, where I'm saying there's something built into us, buried deep inside of us, where we automatically can sense the way the birds are chirping that there's danger near.
Little things in nature that we didn't even know were there inside of us.
Right. I'm sure it's like some deep evolution that's in us that comes out when we're put back in those environments.
Isn't that interesting too, like with human beings, how long it takes us from birth to be able to survive in the environment. Like we're literally helpless for years, right?
Is this like Marshall McLuhan? Does this tie into his idea of the electronic caterpillar? I don't know. Humanity, humans are basically creating this... We are like the electronic caterpillar building technology into this. Yes, yes. Yes, it does. Our purpose is to build this.
Seems silly. Yeah.
What do you make of the stoned ape hypothesis that we ate a mushroom, which accounted for the extreme growth in our brain size?
It is, yeah.
Right.
Yeah. That DMT study with Danny Goeller did that. He was just on here again recently. And Andrew Gallimore did a review of it. I think he's now working with Gallimore doing further studies of it.
All right. We were going to talk about the moon.
Yeah. So Gallimore's doing the DMT X extended state DMT stuff. And one of the things that Gallimore talks about is there's history, a history of people under this, under the influence of psychedelic drugs, seeing code and specific things.
And one of the things that he described in regards to that laser experiment where you do DMT and you shine the laser on the wall, you look at the laser and you see that code is that it's like a, the laser sort of acts like a microscope, right? Like, first of all, when you're doing DMT, what it's doing is in his in his view is it's breaking down all these filters that we have in our brain.
What's so interesting? First of all, what made you start to pay attention to the moon?
Our brain is filtering out what we normally have every day to be able to eat, sleep, survive and get through the day. Right. And when you take DMT, it breaks down all these filters. So you're seeing maybe this code, maybe you're seeing more stuff that's really here that we can't normally see in a normal state.
And when you bring in a laser while you're in that state, it's like hyper-focusing on one part of that. And maybe that explains why we're seeing this specific little code. Everyone, I think a vast majority of people who have done that exact DMT laser experiment have reported seeing the same exact code. And the code looks like this type form, this Japanese text form that's called katakana.
which is very similar to the Matrix dripping raincoat, which is a human that was designed by humans. So how do you explain that what we're doing when we're going into the state and seeing this thing that must have been there before humans were here is a human invention?
Was it really the Nazis?
Steve, ask Chad GBT who invented the lasers.
Theodore Maimon. First working laser in 1960 at Hughes Research Laboratories in Malibu, California.
Right. What is that about? What is that about? Yeah, this, I mean, so do you think it's possible that There is a civilization of humans or something that is here inhabiting this planet that we can't see or interact with. Typically, I'm sure there's exceptions that would be analogous to like us compared to an uncontacted tribe living on an island. That is so technologically advanced.
Do you believe all the stuff that he says? Short answer, no. Imagine six months from now, what do you look like? Now imagine you had hymns the whole time and how much better that could be. Who says your hair can't get better with age? With hymns, you're allowed to have fuller, thicker hair and hymns is the perfect solution to make your hair great again.
Holy shit.
Sounds like some Westworld shit.
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Wow.
Now, one of the things Greer was explaining to me is that if there are people or organizations, private companies, aerospace, that have figured all this out, They hypothetically would be more powerful than any world government, maybe all the world government, maybe Russia, China, US combined militarily wise.
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And that would explain, I mean, he also goes on to say how like top J2 generals cannot get access to this stuff, meaning basically the highest levels of the US military can't even get access. clearance on this technology. I mean, they're like holding it hostage from the U.S.
I would imagine it would have started with the United States and DARPA. When? After the World War II. How? Through paperclip and through other stuff we were doing. And it got so out of hand because obviously they wanted... The government didn't want to have accountability over this stuff, so that's why they put it in the private sector. And basically, they figured it out to an extent where...
it maybe took off and got so powerful that they realized look we don't need to answer the us government anymore we control this stuff and maybe they're running around the world right now with impunity doing things that we have no idea what the they're doing and maybe they're like i think you made a you described it in a way as if
Potentially, these are the people that are waiting for China and Russia and the United States are like fish in a pond fighting, and they're waiting for them to get worn out. Like a cat. Like a cat waiting for the fish. Waiting to eat the fighting fish.
That's also when we changed the name of the Department of War to the Department of Defense.
And we created the CIA.
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Look at that giant fencing scar.
Corso's descriptions. Exactly.
Kevlar.
Nobody talks about this stuff. There's a reason why nobody talks about it, Danny. So Corso, how did Corso describe this stuff and where is it documented for people to read it?
Oh, it's in Day After Roswell.
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Who were the brothers that were working on this stuff? The Horton brothers. Horton brothers.
Hmm. Okay. So— Annie Jacobson talks about this a lot in her Area 51 book.
And I've asked a lot of people about it, and no one seems to buy into it. But she—I mean, I know you're familiar with it. Basically, the idea is that there was— The evidence is very good. Mengele surgically altered some children to go in that thing, and they— Progeria children. It was remote-controlled here. Yeah.
progeria children progeria their heads get all swollen up and they look old even though they're they're you know neotenous looking yeah but they look old at the same time their heads get all swollen and there was an eg and g engineer who told annie this and she goes why why wouldn't you guys make this public if you found out that this was russian stalin flown or nazi stuff like it would make them look terrible on the world stage and he said the reason we didn't let it out is because we continued the research we continued the research absolutely right absolutely
Yes.
Wow.
Wow.
Hmm.
Really?
Mm-hmm.
You sure about that? You might want to check it out.
K-A-R-L-S-O-N. There seems to be some controversy about Billy.
Yeah.
I got a blue check. Yay! There you go.
Yeah.
Oh, my God.
Go back.
Sure.
Right. Okay. I got it. Wow. So. Just a couple of weeks before they start sucking up phone calls and emails from everybody. Yeah. They didn't know there was another attack.
Oh, thank you, Steve, for defining it for my third grade education. Situations that allow law enforcement to conduct warrantless searches and seizures under certain urgent conditions. Okay. Exigent circumstances apply. We have to go outside the Constitution here.
That's interesting. You're the second person I've ever heard use that term SIOP. Oh yeah. The S I O P version.
Right.
Did you talk to anyone else, any of your colleagues that felt the same way you did? Yes. Expressed your sense, yeah?
Thin thread people, right.
Yeah, the other time I heard the term PSYOP was when John Newman was in here explaining how the Joint Chiefs of Staff had a plan to drop nukes on China and Russia when Kennedy was president. And they wanted to do it. And there's meetings were called PSYOP meetings or something like that. And then Bobby Kennedy was in the meetings and stuff like that.
What do you think the ultimate motive is for this, this way of going about it? Why? Yeah. Because they were so, this is just psychology.
What is it exactly? He's like, don't, if when you trade your freedoms for securities, you hide.
and they had this full all-out nuclear war plan, and they wanted to do it before December of 63, before Russia was able to get ICBMs. Because I guess they didn't have intercontinental ballistics before that. So anyways, that's interesting.
But you decided to go about doing it- All through channels. Through the correct legal way it should be done.
Okay.
Right.
Now it's- And some of the stuff that you said, you still can't even say today. Not the classified stuff. Right, not the classified stuff.
Your supervisor.
What was that one? It was called what? Naval Archer? Able. Able Archer?
2013.
2013. Way later. Wow. Okay.
Yes.
Oh, Pentagon Papers. Pentagon Papers, yeah.
Danny Sheehan.
Big part of that.
Oh, look, 1983. Military exercise conducted by NATO that took place in November 1983 as part of an annual exercise. It simulated a period of heightened nuclear tension between NATO and the Warsaw Pact, leading to concerns that it could have been mistaken for a real attack by the Soviet Union.
Yeah, let me ask you this. What was it like when you realized Or was there like a specific point when you realized that the NSA had turned all of the surveillance onto you?
So you.
You had stuff in place monitoring this.
Cryptolinguistics?
And that's just one example of how close we... The nuclear war thing blows my freaking mind, man. It's just like, you know, from what I understand, the last time that the president of the US was able to get the president of Russia on the phone, just with a phone call, was not quick. It took days, I think. So, like...
Wow.
No, I mean, you didn't tell the FBI's at the door.
If there was a – just say like a rogue nation like North Korea, for example, launched a nuke towards us and we saw it coming, we have that – What's that – there's a term where we have to basically use it or lose it, where we have to empty our ICBMs. Because if there's one coming at us, it's called first – I forget what it's called.
Anyways, where we have to empty our silos, our ICBM silos, because they're super vulnerable. And we can't risk a nuke hitting that. So if there's one coming at us, we have to empty those first. And assuming we know where this is coming from, for example, say we know it's coming from North Korea, we have to blast those out towards North Korea.
Well, when your lawyer called you, didn't he also tell you that they approached your wife? Yes. How did that go? Not very – she still works there.
And then what?
I just bypassed because John told, well, just when Kariaku was in here, he was saying that they gave her an ultimatum.
And she, she worked, she had worked at NSA and still does to this day.
And she had not been aware of this whole investigation.
But the problem is this all happens within like 20 minutes. Oh, yeah. And those nukes that we launched towards North Korea will have to fly over the North Pole, over Russia. And what are the chances we're going to be able to get Russia on the phone in five, ten minutes to tell them these nukes aren't coming for you. They're going for North Korea or whatever.
All these years, you're going through all this shit, and you didn't say a word to your wife.
I know. It's just like, I could keep secrets. Yeah. Is there an irony there in there? I just can't imagine how fucking hard that must've been.
Okay. Let's take, let's, let's take a quick break right now. I got to pee anyways and we'll come back. All right, where were we? We just talked about how you got news from your lawyer that you were indicted, and one of the special agents, I guess, contacted your wife and let them know you were indicted. And... I'm now facing...
And for context, can you explain for people who aren't familiar with him? He was involved in the Pentagon Papers leak.
So did that count as some sort of precedent in the court? Yeah, well... Or did that kind of screw it up?
And that's probably not going to happen. So Russia's, their generals are going to see all these nukes coming out. They're going to empty their silos. And it's like before you know it, within ten minutes, it's just Armageddon.
Operation Merlin involving providing flawed nuclear weapon design information to Iran? Yeah, it backfired. The leak aimed to expose the CIA's missteps and potential dangers to national security.
like a Trojan horse type thing?
Which one was that?
There's the stories of Billy Wah who was tracking him, taking photos of him. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Billy Wah. He was in Vietnam and then he – I am not. Really, really old. He got really, really old and he kept going to – CIA headquarters and say, send me back over there. Send me back over there. He was like 80 years old in the middle East.
Um, and he was like spying on bin Laden, taking photos of him and stuff. He was like with the right across the street from him. And many times tried to ask them, like, can I take them out? Can I take them out? They would never let him engage in Billy wall for probably legal reasons, but we're in Obama and Osama bin Laden.
And he was like the crazy stories, how he was jogging right by his compound, uh,
every day like he was like watching him pull up in his mercedes walking into the mosque every day and billy waugh was fully dressed up and like dressed up as like an african-american going for a jog crazy shit like one day he says there was one story where he said osama's dog is one of his guard dogs was like chasing him down the road the kicker was he was right outside a military academy in abadabad right just crazy i mean john john would probably get a lot more insight on that it's just
Nothing. Have you ever heard the story about how he had, Stephen, we pulled this up before, but bin Laden had some sort of like, pancreas disease or kidney problem, and he was flown to a hospital in Saudi Arabia and escorted by CIA agents into a hospital? That I hadn't heard.
Yeah, California.
And there was a Saudi intelligence guy who I think set up a safe house for them in California.
I had a guy in here once. We don't have to go down this rabbit hole, but it's just an interesting cat, an interesting little side bar. This guy was a, he's dedicated his life to studying, um,
precognition and dreams people were having that would predict the future yep and there's like hundreds of cases of people having dreams about 9 11 before it happened he he had he had had uh a crisis in a life and when he came out of it um
Crazy.
And they have the MIRVs.
Do you think it's possible that they got to your attorney? No. No.
Any kind of missile. Yeah, sure can. That was developed later. Typically three warheads.
multiple independent re-entry re-entry right right so the so the idea is the the booster after the booster gets knocked off the rocket goes up into orbit and then the three individual warheads or more depending on the type of right platform re-enter the atmosphere and they can literally be programmed yes to go multiple different spots and then we start wild yeah
So once you had the public defenders, how long did that process take between then and then the time you had to actually go in front of the judge?
Yeah. How many times did they try to come at you with some sort of a plea deal?
Right.
And the submarines, they're nuclear powered too. So like in an all out global thermonuclear war, they would be the last ones to survive. Yes. Because they'd be underwater. They have nuclear power. I mean, they would just basically be locked in that tube until they ran out of food and water, I imagine.
I saw recently, actually, Annie Jacobson published it in her book, Nuclear War, her recent book. She published, and Steve, I don't know if you still have this screenshot saved. You might be able to Google it, but she basically published an image of the traffic patterns of all the nuclear submarines from Russia and China.
And Russia and China both have literally submarine highways that are coming right off the coast of the east coast of Florida and right off the coast of Southern California. It's crazy.
Yeah.
Yes, that's exactly what I- Hematodrosis, also known as hematidrosis, is a very rare condition where a person sweats blood. It occurs when capillary blood vessels that feed the sweat glands rupture, causing blood to be exuded.
How did your wife continue working for the NSA after all this? That's so crazy to me.
Yeah. Yeah, I think the CIA missed a couple things in your psychological evaluation. Probably did.
They just put an image of the U.S. Constitution next to your guys' faces. Well... Well, Snowden's was different because he was a contractor, right?
A couple of minutes. They're right off the coast of Miami.
You right next to Snowden.
All the others have flags. A couple guys, four guys at the bottom. Right.
Didn't this guy, like, shoot up his base?
You think the NSA is still fucking with you? They're still tracking you, paying attention to you?
No.
Correct. You were an employer.
It's a fucking crazy story, man.
And there's so many, there's also her map showed all the, their targets, like their top targets and their priority of all the targets, which was even more terrifying because like, like two of the top 10 targets are right here in Florida, McDill. And then there's another, like a strategic command down in Sarasota or something.
Also, let's go back. What was the story with Musk again? Tell the story with Elon and SpaceX. Thanks.
This was very, very early on 2007. Yeah. I had just graduated high school.
The football, right?
Way before. Well, it's just interesting to see the rise of people like Musk and Peter Thiel who have made so much money off government contracts.
Holy shit.
What is the pill called?
CAR-T is what they do with kids, right?
Mm-hmm.
Did you have any kind of autoimmune issues prior to this? Not that I'm aware of. No. Now I'm wondering- Did you ever get COVID?
Not that, if I got it, I was asymptomatic. But I got antibody tests and I didn't have the antibodies.
Yeah, like EMPs.
This was the early 60s. Have you heard of, I think it was Operation Starfish Prime, where they were blowing up nukes in outer space? Yeah, there's- They actually had a plan to blow one up on the moon. Yeah, it's- Like they wanted to hit the moon with a nuke. Like how, like we're such stupid monkeys, it's crazy.
Yeah. People had strokes. People are myocarditis. Yep.
This therapy? Yes. Okay.
So
You are a testament to that, man. You have been through hell and back.
Yeah, man. I mean, everything that you just alluded to and described in your story and what you were trying to expose, unfortunately, seems like we've seen continue to rot over the decades. And we are in – it doesn't seem like the country's in a great spot in regards to – the control of this private military industrial complex that seems to run the world and be connected to fucking everything.
Yeah, man.
It's a beautiful story, man. You're a good man, Tom. That was the first five-hour podcast I've ever done. Wow. You got the record. A first. A first. Broke the mold. And now we got Patreon questions. Okay, go for it. So thanks again for coming, man. Tell people that are listening and watching on YouTube or Spotify where they can... A, get a hold of you, find out more about you, anything like that?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. We've detonated them in space, up in upper atmosphere, underwater, under the ground. And a lot of our nuclear tests have been just like in Nevada. Well, Nevada, there's still places in Nevada that are off limits. The biggest struggle with keeping a firearm within reach in your house is, number one, it's got to be in reach when you need it.
Okay. Okay. Perfect. I'll link that stuff below.
Cool. Well, thanks again, man. This has been incredible.
Yeah. He paid the price for doing the right thing, unfortunately.
What really matters. Right. Very, very powerful story, man. I'm really happy we were able to do this. So Patreon questions. Patreon. All right. That's it for YouTube. Good night, everybody.
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Right. And the government – Trinity. Trinity.
The atomic – I think it was the atomic – nuclear commission or something like that. Um, and the department of energy, I think, I don't, I mean, there was, I know there was multiple cases where like there was contamination in the water and the food and like the cattle and stuff like that.
Right. And these people, these people just like, and like now that now this is the number one place in the world to go gamble and bet on shit and go to the casino. Yeah.
Really?
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah, that's the craziest thing about the Cold War. I mean, even before the Cold War, after World War Two, like starting with Operation Paperclip and everything that we did secretly and for the military and.
with just getting these rocket scientists and these other physicists and all these brilliant mathematicians like John von Neumann and all these people that literally were using all of their brain power to figure out how to kill more people. and how to develop more instruments of war.
And I think it was Von Neumann who was the, I think he was the one who calculated like the, he came up with the exact calculation of how high in the atmosphere Fat Man and Little Boy needed to be to cause the most civilian deaths.
During World War II. Oh, yeah. And as soon as World War II is over, we have the competition to go get all the freaking – But there is my stepfather, passed away.
Really?
Right. Yeah, man. That history is so – it's so crazy. Yeah.
Right.
Like overflying?
How did you eventually learn the story? He told you later?
Oh, okay.
Oh, really?
Oh, okay.
Fascinating. Lots of war games, stuff like that. And how long did that go on for?
So, okay, so you were already part of NSA. Oh, yeah.
How old were you back then?
Really?
Knocks, yeah, yeah, yeah. Non-official.
A knock is someone who's like deniable, right?
So going back to when you decided you want to go to CIA, is that an easy process? I mean, I imagine it's way, I imagine it's more seamless coming from NSA.
Yeah.
I did. I did.
And what kind of stuff did they, did they ask you? What kind of, um, everything like John, John alluded to a little bit of the stuff that he, he had talked about everything and anything, including sexual preferences. Yeah. That's what John was saying.
Yeah, they get nitty-gritty with that stuff.
How do they know, Walt?
And for people out there who are listening to you, why don't you just, we're listening to the show for the first time and maybe may not be aware of who you are. Why don't you just give us like a brief introduction to your background?
Right, there were computers, right. More primitive.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And which one, like, to you was like, what the hell are they trying to get at us?
So you get admitted, they say, okay, Tom, you're in baby. You're officially a spook.
NRO is a funny one.
Because NRO, a lot of people don't know about NRO.
Right, right, right.
What other types are there? Like planes and stuff?
That was all part of NRO? Well, it was CIA. It was CIA. Right, right, right, right.
So you were operating- Vandenberg.
Yeah.
I've heard a lot of crazy stories about Vandenberg.
Right. I heard that. So we have that interceptor system to intercept ICBMs, like nuclear rockets that are coming for us or warheads that are coming for us. And I know that a bunch – I think we have – I think it's 44 interceptor missiles currently in the US. And I think most of them are in Alaska, but a couple of them are at Vandenberg. I know Vandenberg has some of those interceptor missiles.
And I didn't work in that part of the government. Right, right, right, right. No, I just heard this is relevant to the whole nuclear war scenario.
Exactly.
Elephant walk with B-52s. So these are B-52 bombers?
No, those are more cargo or...
C-130, right.
What's the Chinese water drip?
So if NRO gets... intelligence of a rocket, of a missile coming at us. That's basically what they do.
Wow.
How long do they do that for?
Yeah. Yeah, the other thing, the plane the president has to get in the middle of a nuclear war is interesting, too. I forget the name of that plane. It's called the Doomsday Plane or something.
Yeah, the Doomsday Plane. And there's a STRATCOM command center in that plane for, I think, the president, the head of STRATCOM.
Yes, yes.
This is all the type of shit they do at Guantanamo and all those black sites, right?
That was DARPA.
This was in what year?
Imagine what the frick they have now.
Right.
That's amazing. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating. It's fascinating just to hear stories of some of the crazy technology that we've been able to develop since the 50s, essentially. Just to be like, okay, now we're learning about this stuff in 2024, 2025. Wow. Like imagine what we're going to be learning about in 2050. Here's one.
Okay.
Oh yeah, I've seen this. They did this to Abu Zubaydah, I think.
Yeah.
And you did the box?
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Because you would see the shock diamonds.
That is so crazy.
Yeah.
Wasn't the edge like really sharp? Oh, yeah. Oh, I mean, it looks, yeah, look at it. Just stunning.
And that's just one of any number of technologies. And weren't they first developing these and testing them out of Area 51? Yeah. Yeah, well, Groom Lake. Groom Lake, yeah. That's what they do in a lot of the first test flights of these stealth crafts.
Oh, yeah, we talked about that. I heard you talking about that.
Really?
You know, we were talking to a gentleman in here yesterday about this story. There's a fascinating documentary that I suggest everyone who's interested in this stuff watch. It's called Mirage Men. And it's a really sad story about this man who lived in New Mexico right off, like within probably a couple miles of one of the big Air Force bases out there.
And this guy was obsessed with UFOs and he was in all the UFO communities, move on, going to all these meetings and conferences about UFOs all the time, reading all the books. And he started to, and this guy was a former, I think a former Air Force guy.
And he started to see every time, every day at the same time, these crazy aircrafts shoot up off the ground, move around and then come back down and like weird things that he couldn't explain. And he started to collect video and photos and make notes of all this stuff and try to, he was even trying to intercept the radio signals and communications that were going on there.
And the Air Force caught wind of it, and they sent one of their counterintel guys over to meet up with him. And he let him look through all the photos, listen to all the recordings he had of the radio stuff. And he knew this guy was a big UFO guy. So he goes, wow, man, I don't know what this is. You know what? I think these really are UFOs. I think these really are aliens.
I heard that they have, specifically at Guantanamo, some of the stuff they were doing, some of the 9-11 prisoners they had, was that they would put them in a room and play SpongeBob SquarePants for days on end. Or just play Barney, I Love You, You Love Me for a week straight.
And then the NSA moved in across the street from his house and started beaming shit into his house. And this code, like beaming code into his house that he was collecting. And the, basically with the information they're beaming to him was like, we are an extraterrestrial civilization. Our planet ran out of water and we need to come to earth. We'll be there in two years.
and all this stuff literally drove this man insane. Ended up in an insane asylum. And I think he ended up either, I think, I don't know if he committed suicide, but he ended up in a mental institution, like lost his whole life over this stuff.
And like, they really dedicated, it's amazing the amount of resources that the Air Force and the NSA were able to dedicate to this one guy just because they could use him as a conduit of disinformation to poison the well.
of this ufo community that they knew was infiltrated with soviets right poisoning the well is a technique to keep prying eyes from noticing things you don't want them to notice right so creating this confusing cauldron of stew of misinformation disinformation there's probably a few little truths in there right but you'll never be able to find it right
it probably sounds more crazier than the disinformation.
Yeah. It's amazing, man. And even in today, like just in today's day and age, like the level it's gotten to is like out of control, I think.
not only is all of the perception management out of control, but like we have evidence over the last few years that FBI and CIA had been meddling with social media companies with the Twitter files, which John karaoke talks about a lot. And that combined with the fact that,
that there are more people than ever independently on the line just talking about stuff and getting their message out there so there's like more podcasts out there that like there's a zillion podcasts just in this zip code probably
It's flooded. Yes, flooded. It's absolutely flooded. And one of the downfalls, I think, of social media is that in order for these people... In order for you to... get any sort of recognition for the work you're doing. Like you're constantly fighting this, who can be the most sensational, who can come up with the next end of the world story. You know, the world is falling apart.
We're all going to die. Aliens are invading. Like, like let's try to keep upping that game. And that combined with all the people that are doing it, Then you add in the layer of disinformation to it. It's just like so hard to figure out what's real now. It's like the amount of work you have to do to do the research to find out how legitimate a story really is, is absurd.
And that like, I talk about this all the time too. I think it's really interesting how you have all these people, like I'm one of them. I'm guilty of it being one of the, I sit here and I talk about great things. Right. Yeah.
haven't been to these places i haven't seen the first person like some of the people like you have done right like i'm not going out and filming this stuff and like talking to the people on the ground i'm just getting information from people that have posted stuff that they heard from someone else yeah that they heard from someone else that they heard from somebody who might have been on the ground there but you know about the telephone game
And what... The purpose of putting you guys through this stuff is to kind of numb you to it? Is that what the goal is? Not numb you, to learn how to resist it. To learn how to resist it.
Oh, yeah.
Right. Yep.
Yeah. It's crazy how we're evolving. Yeah. And it's crazy how much... Like, I mean, like, I don't even know, just like the speculation of how much organizations like NSA and CIA are wrapped up in all this stuff and benefiting from it and like how much more they can get away with just because there's so much chatter, there's so much noise.
And there's 2 million employees in the U.S. government. I mean, it's insane.
Right, right, right, right.
And this is another thing that they do is they work with private organizations and private companies to avoid the accountability. We talked about this on the phone, and I've talked about this on recent podcasts, but I just read this fantastic series of articles about a report about... The history of Google and how it was funded and incubated by NSA, CIA, and DARPA.
The tools came from DARPA, but there were CIA and NSA folks quite literally visiting Sergey Brin at Stanford, him and his professor, through the whole process of developing Google. And they were giving him money through some sort of cutout or whatever. And like, that's crazy. That's insane.
And then if you, so if you can have these crazy multinational monopoly organizations that control all the information around the world, like the one is Google and then YouTube comes second that, and you say, okay, it was created by them, but it's not really connected. Nobody knows. Nobody knows that that is the case.
And it's literally a separate private or a public company, but it's not connected to those agencies. It's a convenient cutoff. Imagine what they can get away with and imagine how much they can freaking control. It's just so crazy to me, man. And learning this stuff blows my mind, even though it shouldn't blow my mind after seeing things like the Twitter files.
But it's literally, it's quite literally by like in the charter, it's, isn't it illegal for these agencies to be involved in domestic stuff?
Yeah. I mean, I imagine it was a lot easier back in the 50s, 60s- Way easier. And 70s. And they're much smaller. To infiltrate the media. Oh, yeah. Because there's only so many media outlets. But now, like-
And they're big in the news right now because it's too convenient.
Yep. Yep. What do you make of all this recent stuff coming out about with the controversy with the USAID? There's a lot of corruption.
so so the story is usaid has been funding stuff all over the world in in countries like our ally countries right third world countries and it's under the guys i mean the funny thing about it is it's us aid but the stands for something completely different right What is USAID?
Agency for International Development, right.
So the idea is we're giving... huge donations. We're building infrastructure and building stuff in these other countries in exchange for us to be able to have a footprint there.
So the argument for this is like, is it better to not do it and let China and Russia do it?
Yeah. And that's the conundrum with this whole thing. Sure is. Like we live in this, we kind of take it for granted that we live in like the number one military superpower country in the world. And we have...
we live in like an like kings like we we have everything at our disposal we can do anything we want with all the technology and and freedom that most countries don't have and then you know we want to criticize the government for taking for going so far and in certain areas but like like god damn if they if there's some of the stuff they didn't do and some people can be blind to this stuff um
Like if we didn't do some of this fucked up shit, for lack of a better term, like we wouldn't be where we are and we wouldn't have the luxury of being critical of the government. So, yeah, I hear that argument a lot and it's hard for me to it's hard for me to navigate sometimes. But. So let's get back to your story. You went to the, we were, we left off when you went to the CIA.
Which was part of the NRO, right?
What is that?
What do you mean when you say feeds from all over the world?
The Sibber satellites are a huge part of that, right?
Right.
Yeah. So what was it like getting through that, getting out to the other end of that?
Okay, I didn't know if you ever monitored the SIBR stuff. Okay. No. Yeah, my understanding of it is there's basically a bunch of them that are traveling around the globe constantly.
And there's a constant, essentially, with all of the different SIBR satellites constantly rotating the Earth, every single square inch of Earth is covered at all times by these SIBR satellites that are recording everything. that we're recording what's going on on the ground, what's going on in airspace and all that stuff.
Okay. So Sibbers, when did that come about? Is there a date, Steve?
um 1994. it started in the 80s yeah that's uh oh that's the advanced warning system and then the boost surveillance and tracking system they've had that for a while that's been evolved remember that for me my period is the 80s and and through the late 90s follow-on early warning system in the early 90s yes oh by the way i just remembered what i what i was uh trying to when we were talking about the nuclear stuff it's a launch on warning
And what after the SEER training?
That's the term they have. Launch on warning. For when they see an ICBM going up that we have to empty our silos.
It's like use it or lose it with the ICBMs.
Now, 2007 was when you were going through everything, right? When you were on your way out. Not yet. Oh, not yet. So you were still in NSA.
I'll get to it.
You heard it, folks. You better keep watching this because we're going to hear a great story about Elon in the deep state. Yeah, it's a story. All right. He's fast.
Also, so you mentioned the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center.
Yeah. There's a lot of documentaries out there that, that speculate that that was, uh, that they let that happen as a, um, an excuse to enter the war.
It's not black or white.
So this was the analysis of it. Yes. We knew they were coming back.
1983.
Oh, yes.
That's a 747. Yeah. What's the story? There was also, and this is probably after you were out of NSA, but there was a story similar where an airline got shot down right off of New York, or maybe it didn't get shot down. Oh, TW 800?
I had a fellow, a former FBI agent on the show about a year ago who was there on site cleaning up, trying to rescue people that were, I mean, there was no rescues, but he was there in the recovery process of that. And he said it was the worst day of his life having to see that. And the official story is what? What was the official story of that? Electrical short. That's the official story.
I think he said on the podcast, he said it looked like it got shot down.
Steve just found a great animation of that TWA 800 flight. I guess they somehow, based on the trajectory of all the debris, they figured out what the explosion looked like and how it ripped the plane apart. Go ahead and play it, Steve.
Oh, yeah, just recently.
Oh, the private jet.
I saw two things. I saw one thing that was like a midair collision, it looked like, and another one where a private jet just nosedoped into a highway.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Right.
We'll talk about the whole story on how you blew the whistle on the NSA and how all that came to be. But going back before that, what made you decide you wanted to be in the NSA in the first place?
And this was also near Philadelphia?
Reagan.
It's just crazy that this is all happening right on the heels of all that drone controversy. Oh, the drone stuff. I think Trump just came out and said that it was surveillance, some sort of surveillance thing combined with hobbyists. Yep.
People just started-
They were definitely conventional drones, but like why? Like why all of a sudden are all these drones out there and only at night? And then there was a couple of stories that came out. One that they were looking for like a rogue nuke. I heard that.
EC-138. EC-138. Compass call. All right. So let's jump back to your story and let's get into the good stuff. The good stuff? Well, I mean, let's start that trajectory at least.
You got it. So I think we left off when you were in NSA and it was 1993, that whole terrorist thing. You were working on the terrorist- Oh, Navy. Navy. That was Navy. On the terrorism desk. Terrorism desk. Okay. Okay. Cool. And then how did you get from there to NSA?
I've been waiting to have you on for a long time, man. John Cariocco has been on the show a few times and he's the one who connected us. So shout out to John. Love John. You guys are both in good company being fellow whistleblowers. You worked for the NSA, John worked for the CIA.
Yeah, you mentioned the general came in and basically said, I don't give a shit about a couple of rat heads.
It was penetrating firewalls of a who, of what? Inside NSA.
And I imagine you're flying over countries that don't know that you're flying over them, right? Or that we, that you were flying into airspace that you didn't have permission to fly into. Is that how it works?
Got it. Okay.
And what kind of consulting were you doing?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So just to clarify, when you say you had already solved it, you had already solved it by doing-
So how long did you do this kind of work?
Combat support. So like flying into combat zones and stuff?
And the AI was the voice processing system.
What kind of combat zones would you have been in?
Right.
Any kind of stuff involving nukes?
Or like nuclear war games, things like that?
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And by the way, sorry, just to clarify, who specifically was making the orders to that or who is specifically telling you or instructing you that now we're going to start bypassing the secret court and the FISA?
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More secret than secure comp, what is it, SCI? Yes. Compartmented.
This is how you build a house. When I wired a house, the staples go every 18 inches from a bend and every four feet. So when you look at certain sites and you see like a pumapunku at the top of each H block, they stick a little clamp.
The metal clamps that are poured, they'll take a seam of stone- And they'll have like an eye-shaped deal on either side. Oh, okay. They pour metal into this indentation. We see them a lot in Egypt. They're bow tie shaped in Egypt a lot. The ones in South America are more eye-shaped. But... The fact that in Pumapunku, for example, we know that they were used a lot in the old world.
They show up in a new world a little bit in Bolivia. And at Pumapunku, they're used on these H blocks on each one. And it's like, it looks like a guy, standard operating procedure is what it looks like to me. It doesn't look like somebody's over there experimenting. Ah, these two stones might wobble apart. It looks like he's dealt with this problem before and knew exactly what to do to solve it.
It was the way they built things. So things like that, to me, seem to... If you look up, could you type in clamp with that?
Yeah, you see it right there. Oh, wow. Okay. And so you see what I'm, like, look at that one, that second one down there. Like, you see. Holy shit. Okay. Now these show up all across the world. How have I never seen this? This is one of my favorite. To me, again, I focus on a lot more of the mundane stuff because that's where I really end up being more fascinated.
And to me, this is like kind of a smoking gun. We see it all over the world. And it's like a nail. A nail is going to look the same in a lot of different places, right? Whenever you innovate it. But this specifically using metal or wood and specifically using a manner that it's like, okay, Do they fucking need them there? Are those stones still together a thousand years later?
But they didn't fucking need no clamps there, but they put them there. Why? Because that's what they did when they put stones together. And so this wasn't their first time doing it. I don't think that was their first rodeo. And we don't have any sites in Bolivia that really shows innovation. It just kind of pops up in a couple of places and goes away.
So to me, that's another smoking gun for this lost civilization that a lot of people would call Atlantis. A lot of other names might get ascribed to it. And again, a lot of the details, in my opinion, are definitely going to be lost to history. There's no question.
But things like the reshot are very interesting where it does bring details that there's really – I don't see how the Greeks could have gleaned basically any of that. Yeah. of traveling to that spot. Even in ancient Greece, that was a Sahara desert, right?
it would have been would anyone have been left to talk about it and in addition to that this is one thing to point to mention in the record look in the record and say well it took a thousand years for the ocean to rise this much well that nine feet that you experience is ten thousand years from now is going to be a part of the record of the ocean rising so much over so many years they're not going to see that nine foot flood
That doesn't show up in the permanent record. Like when they look each year, what's the sea level? What's the sea level? They don't account for hurricanes. They don't account for those. But something like that happens and it reroutes rivers. I mean, I lived in Illinois near the Mississippi River in 94 when... They had a major flood there, and it engulfed St. Charles, Missouri. The U.S.
Army Corps of Engineers had to reroute the fucking river. Now, they didn't have one 10,000 years ago, man. You see, the city gets swallowed. The city gets swallowed forever, and then in the record, the sea levels rose two inches a year. Well, they did, but right here at that time, completely wiped out overnight.
Well, there was to speak on that real quick. Um, Yeah, he was a philosopher more than he was a historian for sure. But if you draw a parallel to the modern day, say you're trying to convince one of your friends that the West is falling, Western culture is disintegrating. Say that's what your argument is. Would you cite Harry Potter or would you cite Rome?
realm why because it's real so if plato was trying to make a point wouldn't he decide a place that at least his contemporaries believed was real instead of just making some land up oh you know that one place um no he would have at least in my opinion he would have definitely taken something that people knew about that people people had
believed in a lost civilization they believed in atlantis or whatever maybe they didn't have a name to it at the time but he in my opinion if he was using a metaphorical or an allegorical tool there's no fucking way he would just conjure it out of thin air it has way less teeth i won't deciding something real it is worth mentioning that um apparently only somewhere between 20 and 30 percent of plato's work is actual allegory so he get a lot of people say well he made things up he made things up and it's like well most of his work wasn't um
You know what I mean?
That's a great way of putting it, because that's like why you asked for the evidence, and I'm talking about things that span the ocean, because my mind is exactly what it is. It's evidence of a civilization that's doing things that we wouldn't give them credit for.
Isostatic. Isostatic. What did I say? Isotopic? Isotopic. Yes. I was looking at it going, wait a minute. What's he getting wrong?
No, no, no. That's my point. I was just going to use – the Earth's crust displacement theory is what you're talking about. That's not accepted science. But the model of it, Charles Hapgood, the best explanation that I've ever heard is if you think of a core – excuse me, if you think of an orange that's detached from the peel –
And if you think of it as the Earth's crust and the Earth's core, and you imagine the peel shifting over the, like you're spinning it on a string, and then it just shifts a tiny little bit, that's your Earth crust displacement. That's where you end up with, the idea is you end up with different pieces of the Earth on the poles, like the entire crust shifts.
Chicken Little sees the sky fall because the stars dip.
like that's that's earth crust displacement einstein was even working on it with half good back in the 50s but it has lost out to tectonic plates and all that stuff it's not the accepted model by any stretch of the imagination but i wanted to put that in because that i always had trouble imagining that until i read the orange metaphor and i've always okay i can see that
It's pretty basic magnetism if you really think about it. Like you ever seen like a Jacob's ladder with electricity going up it? The electricity doesn't just straight across in this bar, right? It moves. It dances. It's like fire. Okay. So – Imagine if the Earth is, just to make it simple, imagine the Earth was just a metal antenna with electromagnetism popping off of both poles, right?
That's going to dance. It's going to weave around and stuff. So coming out the top of the Earth where that pole's created, it's never going to be stable. It's always going to be a fire. It's always going to be a lightning. It's always going to dance. So, yeah, it's never going to be stable, but... And sometimes it's going to get a little wonkier than others.
Now, since the Earth, that's created through this spinning metallic core, there's all kinds of forces that could fuck with that. All kinds of forces could fuck with that. Impact could fuck with it. Probably a lot of things that we're not even taking into account, I would imagine.
Oh yeah, it would be devastating. That would be devastating.
You see it in almost, not quite every Native American culture's iconography, but they've got those sacred circle things that quite frequently will incorporate the line coming off of it. Like I said before, to me it seems like it's a symbol for the cardinal directions, north, south, east, and west, and then it's just a symbol for the passage of time.
Take it a step further.
If all the zeros and ones disappeared off of this planet's hard drives right now, how much money is left? Your bank account says zero. Fucking Euro zero. That is crazy, dude. That's when you think about it like that, things get fucked. Okay. So yeah. You're talking Mad Max. I mean, we're talking to a hardcore Mad Max.
The line comes off of it symbolizing that line moving, the north is turning. And I could be wrong, but that makes a lot more sense than the ancient Hopi hating Jews, right? But that's where the conversation, where it is frustrating, where it's like I draw the parallel sometimes.
okay you know it's like that is a that's a big deal because we're so dependent on it if the power grid goes down civilly civil is it's mad max and they try hard to uh it's it's almost like a psychological thing um in humans ever since darwin to try to like not scientific humans anyway to not inject catastrophic means into the anything happening um
They call it—the scientific debate was gradualism versus catastrophism. In the early days of science, it was expected to prove the Bible, right? So when you're looking to prove the Bible, you're looking for floods, you're looking for comets, you're looking for fires. When you look to prove Darwin right, everything's slow. Everything erodes over time.
Now, after the KT impact in 1980, when that was accepted, they started accepting what they call punctuated equilibrium, where they accepted that you could have— Generally slow times with the occasional catastrophe. That's only fucking my age. I mean, I was five years old when science finally accepted that shit.
So when they look at things like what's going to happen when the geomagnetic poles wiggle around. It's almost like this scientific knee jerk to just be like, oh, it's going to be fine, bro. It's not going to be bad. It can't be bad. That would be biblical proportion. Can't be biblical.
If you're wanting to discuss how well they made the Audubon, we don't have to talk about Hitler's benefits as a leader or his shortcomings as a leader or the Holocaust.
Put my Bitcoin on a hard drive up there. Yeah, not Stonehenge. Yeah, it's crazy when you think about it. When you look at what happened when the solar flares hit about 100 years ago, 150 years ago, and they burned up... The Carrington? Yeah, telegram wires and shit got burned up. Like that's... You start...
we get to that kind of point with the the poles flipping and stuff and i mean i can't predict what's going to happen i don't think very much anybody's going to be able to predict exactly what's going to happen because you're you got electricity doing the the earth use is our ground i mean it's half of all of our electricity the earth is half of the equation so you start with that polarity in our society where everything's electrical
all that even though he was intricately involved intimately involved in the construction of the autobahn it has all to do with that we just talk about road construction and it's the same thing here we're just talking about whether or not this symbol jumped the atlantic and the pacific that's really the the crux of this where we're talking about like lost civilizations and but they tried to water that down and turn it into we were just talking about racism and that's
Yeah, it's just going to get weird. It's going to we're going to be definitely in uncharted waters.
The same as with Elon's speech. He gives them a loose thread to pull on that some people, well, that's all they're going to see is that, well, he did that. All some people are going to see is, well, Jimmy talked about a swastika. Well, it has all to do with what Jimmy was saying. It could have been any symbol. It just happens to be. Yeah, look.
The lunar-solar calendar comes from Dr. Martin Swetman. And one of the things he's gotten a lot of grief for is that he interprets a lot of the animal symbols as different constellations, and other people have interpreted different animal symbols as different things. And then there's other people that are very skeptical, and they say, these are just fucking animals, man.
What are you getting into here? This could even be proto-language and stuff here. The thing is that we've got... Every pillar we look at, we see new symbols. Every pillar we unearth, we see new symbols on. This is further back than anything we've seen like this. There's no reason for us to not... There is a lexicon of old iconography staring us in the face. It's buried under fucking ground.
And they're advocating not digging it up because we don't normally do that. Well, look, man, if you go to fucking Greece, you dig up a column, the next column and the last column were the same. But we know at Gobekli Tepe, you dig up a T-pillar, the next T-pillar and the last T-pillar were different. So dig up more fucking pillars, man. This is not the same thing.
They won't even get on board with that. And that's that's where well, that's where it's really fucked. Let's be honest. I mean, that's where it's just that's just off the goddamn rails.
The only, the only technology they're going to need to save stuff would be stuff to like stop the damage, undo the damage. The tree roots did. I mean, fuck, come on at this point, at this point, clearly like, again, there's, there's stuff there that we don't know. It's about the prehistory of humanity.
Some of the earliest, most complicated iconography we've seen anywhere from that time period for fuck's sake, man, just, I mean, what, It's like if we had two manuscripts and you know where the rest of them are, you're going to want to read the rest of them.
And the opposition to it, honestly, is one of the things that is... It makes a guy like me even get a little conspiratorial because there is no fucking reason on God's green earth to not want... It's one thing for them to say, okay, man, you know, it's going to cost a lot of money. It's going to be... This is going to be a problem. This is... But the sheer... How much could it possibly cost?
But the vitriol. Fuck. Fuck. The vitriol that we've seen from it's insane. Yeah.
Not only that, with them saying that it can't be built by hunter-gatherers, I'm old enough to have been studying anthropology as a young adult. The way that it went down was humans harvested food, they stored food, we have a surplus of food, then we built. That's when we started actually making things. Before that, we just built these primitive granaries. After that, we started building buildings.
megaliths and cities and so gobekli tepe turns out completely on its ear now they've rewrote that order they're like well i guess you could get a surplus of food from hunting and gathering and then build and then and then build a city and that could make you want to become a farmer and become more sedentary it's they that one site is so enigmatic that it flipped things 180 degrees in that regard and it's still like that might even be part of the reason that they're kind of opposed to digging it up it might still be a little bit of a black spot in some of the older guys i mean it might just irritate them a little
The assumption would be that the crop survived, right? Or that we could find it in the record from back in those times and find the genetic changes and variations and stuff.
it but that's something that they really are like it's spotty the record like what i talked about before the rice thing it's really really difficult to pin down when uh certain crops um became domesticated when they didn't and it's the going back and genetics when i was studying that stuff the genetics on that was sometimes the margin of error when you get back 10 12 000 years and you're looking at fucking seeds and stuff sometimes that margin of error is half of that date uh six thousand years give or take well fuck i mean
i don't know no you're right and a lot of that stuff like they can tell climates in some ways but usually like an area like turkey they're not going to be able to get a whole lot of data for for that far back usually they go to like ice or a bog or something like that where where um their the weather is somewhat recorded in the record but area like turkey where it's just all like sand and dust man they
They can give you some inkling of what the climate was like a long time ago. Like they can tell you about the green Sahara a little bit, but they're not, it's nothing like they could tell you about parts of the world where it's colder or hot or wetter. Like they can give you some pretty accurate dating about England because of those peak bods. Pete Boggs. So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff.
They just spitball on a lot of stuff. That's a framework that they've built based on different like a Greenland ice cores end up being like this huge part or the Barbados coral. That's how they measure the sea, the sea level around the entire fucking world.
Barbados. There's really. Yeah, because it's on the edge of a continental shelf, so it's considered the least likely to go up and down. And the coral is very stable and been there for a long time, so they actually go measure— The coral in Barbados. Yeah, they measure—that's how they measure the sea level rise.
That is wild. I had no idea. And then that measurement, they will apply.
To the globe. I forget exactly. A long time. Yeah. It's where they go to do it. So again, a lot of it's just hypothetical. They assume that because it's on the edge of a continental shelf that it hasn't moved much over time. But if it has moved, it's entirely wrong.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, all from one spot. It's crazy. But I love science because of that. But it's also, I always find it's interesting to look under the hood a little bit because the things that are presented with such certainty. We know exactly what the sea level was in South Africa at this time. Well, actually, we measure that in Barbados. Right. Yeah.
D-Dunking. My name's Dan. De-dunking. De-dunking. Oh, yeah.
De-dunking.
Yeah, I'm on Twitter as well. Beautiful. All right, man. Thanks again, brother. Thanks again, Dan.
To run with that, they were evil, but not stupid either. Or evil, but not stupid. Something, I'm trying to make words here. It's not quite noon, so you're okay. Sorry. Anyway, the... The Nazis were clearly evil, but they had a government, a powerful government that had gone around Europe looting museums and other governments.
So if I was to say, what does the Vatican know about ancient history that we don't know? That's not me saying the Vatican is some great organization. That's just saying there are some snaky motherfuckers that have a bunch of shit under wraps. And it's the same thing here, but they twist that into saying gave the Nazis a bunch of money. Wasn't the Vatican.
If you if you're in the Bronze Age, if you are a tin dealer, you don't give a if it's the Egyptians or the Hittites, you're selling it to just buy my tin.
I'm pretty, pretty nonpartisan. I'm not a fan of either either side of the political spectrum, but I will say that it really frustrates the piss out of me that every single time a new president gets elected anymore, we have pardons going both ways.
this is bull the system shouldn't be working like that we shouldn't have to because it's basically we're no longer catering to the country and like compromising with people it's just capitulation you guys for four years no you guys for four years no you guys for four years well i mean look the fauci one that one that one's unacceptable like that's unacceptable we've got a god system man
We have a system that works. It's like we already let the presidents do their fucking executive orders and kind of subvert our system a little bit. We already give them that leeway. Why the fuck do we need you guys running around pardoning people? Just cut that shit. I'll go govern the country, and if somebody fucked up, let them fucking get crucified for it. The one I don't care about?
I don't think that Hunter should be crucified like he's the son of the president, but he shouldn't be pardoned any different than the crackhead sitting out in front of Walmart right now should be pardoned. You're a fucking crackhead. You're yelling at the system. I don't give a fuck. I grew up in the 90s, man.
I have plenty of friends that I had 20 years ago that are in prison right now for doing drugs and shit, right? They don't get to say, well, my dad was the president and his mommy touched him when he was 16. No, no, no, no, no. Sorry, dude. Tough shit, man. You can rob that store. You go to prison.
I don't disagree.
It's one of the things that happens with fame. And, you know, I remember when I was young, David Lee Roth got busted in Japan for smuggling weed into the country. And that's a 10 year prison sentence minimum. He was back in the States in two days. You're not allowed to tour anymore in Japan. Ouch. Ouch. He's rich and famous. Japan's rough, man.
They send his ass back home as opposed to lock him up, right?
Snopes is a little politically motivated. Just a little.
And that's a hard one, too. I mean, I was just thinking as we were talking about Hunter Biden and stuff. It's like, imagine... Imagine being that kind of person. It's a testimony to the power of cocaine, right? I mean, Hunter Biden's got all kinds of options in the world, right? You can do whatever the fuck he wants. What's he want to do? I'll go get high on that fucking powder.
Most rich kids I know end up going down that road. It's because lack of better things to do, man. It's an available thing. And what are you going to do? People are locked. What are they choosing to do? They're not. They're bored. They're bored, basically, is what it looks like to me. Or they're trying to run 22 hours a day. So they end up doing stimulants. But yeah.
Sorry, it's the same kind of thing.
I actually used Fortnite V-Bucks to teach my kid that shit. Fortnite V-Bucks? I let him have a $25 every two week allowance and he was buying V-Bucks like a madman with it. On Fortnite? Yeah.
he was he and then he wanted about a year later he wanted a costume for halloween a fortnight costume it was like 125 bucks i'm like well you need to save some money for that how much do you got he's like well i don't have any money like well how much money have you spent on v bucks in the last year and then he went and looked and he was just like oh me
And now when he looks to buy something online, he's like, oh, I'll buy that game. But I kind of like that skin, but I'm not going to spend $16 for an anime gun. He's like, yes, see? Perfect. But it's crazy that you even have to teach kids that lesson nowadays in that regards. But the world moves on.
So as a parent, you either let your kid be in the dust or you figure something out or let them be the next generation of kids that don't know how to fucking value shit.
Oh, I just, I made a response video to Jimmy and he was chill with it and we talked and stuff. And then just over time, we ended up doing podcasts or like we did a couple of live streams together and then... Joe Rogan. Yeah.
Do you have a background in this kind of history? I mean, kind of. I pre-ordered Fingerprints of the Gods in 95. Like I had it, like Hastings had it waiting for me the first day it was available. I'd read The Sign and the Seal a couple of years before that. So I was a Graham Hancock fan like a long time ago.
read the stuff and was into this stuff over the years, got custody of my kid in 2015 and like working up to getting custody of him. And then the years afterwards, I didn't like, I just kind of unplugged from all that. And then I come back and I see that there's like this robust debunking sphere community on YouTube and everybody's fighting back and forth about this stuff now.
And so I just, I watched Ancient Apocalypse and I watched Milo Rossi debunk Ancient Apocalypse. And I'm like, well, he kind of did a half-assed job on that. So I started making videos addressing it, and I was surprised that it started gaining traction pretty quick. And now I just kind of poke at any side. A lot of the archaeologists out there will say that I'm not on their side at all anymore.
I will still quite frequently defend their positions, just very few of them as individuals, sadly. But that's a different story. They hate you.
You just said it, iron sharpens iron. I mean, Jim disagrees. When we talk about Baalbek, for example, like Jim sees things differently than I do, but where we both see things and where they overlap, we see areas that each other wouldn't see. You could almost like picture it as like an overlapping fields of fire metaphor. Different people come at things with different perspectives.
And so when you have multiple people that have different ideas on the same thing, With cordial communication, they sit down and talk, and they don't have to fucking agree on a single point. But they have to agree that we're not going to be dicks to each other. You can get somewhere.
And if the person, like with Ben and the Vases, I disagree with him on a lot of things, but I know that he's honest and passionate. So I completely support his work, even if I think that he's pointed 180 degrees in the wrong direction, which I don't. But I do think he's headed in the wrong way, but it doesn't matter, because his work is honest and... It brings data to the table, right?
And, I mean, correct me, how do you feel about that? I would say that it would be a lost technology, but it wouldn't be, I wouldn't consider it a high technology. I wouldn't consider it power. Like, I don't think they had, like, power.
like that necessarily well like any any i don't think they were using steam power to to lift big rocks so how do you think they cut those giant stones i'm not really sure to be honest with you let me ask you this what is the reason you think they don't they didn't have power because we have nothing of it in the in the record except for a few things that can be done in other ways except there's a few exceptions but like most big rocks we can look at and say okay it would take a long fucking time but we could eventually cut that so you can't in my opinion it's like uh
You know, if I could cut this with a spoon, right, this piece of wood, and it's going to take a long-ass time, but if you came in here and it was cut in half and the only tool available is a spoon, and you say, well, did you do that with a saw? If I got no saw here, man, you got no saw on the record, I could do it with a spoon.
Oh, wow.
But there are times when you can't do it with a spoon to follow that metaphor. Like at Baalbek, for example, like Jim was saying, we did need more tech than that to move a big rock like that. And furthermore, the stones at Baalbek, the three that are still in the ground, to me, that betrays the fact that the Romans gave up. It's like you've got three in the wall already.
Why are there three more in the ground that you didn't take out? The three in the ground. The pregnant lady, the pregnant stone or whatever it's called. And those three in the ground all show signs of being measured with the Roman foot. The three in the wall do not show signs of being measured with the Roman foot. So that to me is, and Romans built with symmetry. So you've got three stones here.
We're going to put three more over here, quarry those things. And the guy's tasked to move them, look at it and say, we can't.
Even a third. That's impressive. And that's where – but that's where like – to go back to the cutting of the stones, like the cutting is something we can achieve. You can – there are certain things you can throw more man and time at and eventually achieve. Stacking blocks on top of each other, as long as the blocks are – something people can move, you can stack them on top of each other.
But like the stones at Baalbek, they are so big that you can't You can't – there's no ropes or anything. With what we've done in history, there's really no way of moving those things with the technology at the time that I've seen. And I've seen the debunkers come at it, and they always skip the parts that are difficult.
And, you know, there's some things you can't just throw more men and material at. If you – I frequently just slide down the slope with people that just try to say you could just throw more men and material at it. How many – how much – GDP would the ancient Egyptians have had to throw to get people to the moon. They couldn't. They didn't have the fucking means.
That's insane. Yeah. Could you imagine that?
understanding of mathematics right which i would think they would yeah not only that um like i talk about this one every now and again but uh stones were up until the metal age man tells the bronze age stone was the premier building material and not just for humans but for hominids i mean this goes back millions of years where people were working with stone to make uh every tool every weapon that they had so uh
To think that they didn't have some tricks to work with stone that we've lost since they started working in metal. To me, that's insane.
I completely agree with you. That's where it's one thing to say that they would have been able to put one Wally Wallington on a site and have him maneuver the block right into place. I can go with that. Getting it through the jungles up and down hills. Yeah, come on now. And to get it up elevated that high, too, right? Exactly.
Dude, South America's got all kinds of goofy stuff like that. I recently covered in a video the Aymara language having its... A guy used Imara language, which is spoken by the indigenous people of Bolivia, the ancestors of the Incas. And they use it – this guy used it in the 80s to make computer language – a computer software that was a multi-language translator years before Google Translate.
And it could translate like – Oh, I saw this video you did. Yeah. That to me is fucking crazy, man. It's like – Explain that for people who – The language has – There's a few things that make the language work. This guy, Guzman was his last name. He's a mathematician. He discovered that this language had a few properties that he was able to use to make a computer language.
One of them was that the language, instead of having where most languages are a binary language, a yes or a no, this one had also incorporated maybe in every sentence. It basically has either, it's either a affirmative or a maybe. So that allows for a yes affirmative, no affirmative, or maybe. So that gives it a three-point logic.
And the language never changes its syntax structure, which is extremely rare. I mean, if you think about like how Yoda talks and how, you know, it's all backwards, right? Most languages, when people incorporate a saying from another language, they change to keep the same syntax as the new language. They don't do that in Aymara. They keep the same syntax every single time.
It's a few things like that where they ended up making it where it's actually...
it works with computers so well and it's the only language that has the three-point logic it's the only language that doesn't change like that yeah there is ivan guzman de rojas yeah adamari's name of the software and this i mean this to me is more impressive than the rocks of baalbeck because you don't look at it and see quite as much but this dude did he looked at it and he was just like holy there's a computer language tucked into this language i mean not exactly but a algorithm that will work with computers so well that
he put very little personal time into this and by the time he gave up on it but because of age there was like 12 different languages or eight different languages this thing was able to do and they have to still put the words in the lexicon has to be added individually right like you have to type in each word and tell the thing what to mean and that was all done by volunteer and in 2006 it was still better than google translate was and that's that's a while ago but that's impressive
The idea of mirroring the sky on the ground with buildings, that's something that you see both in South America and in ancient Egypt.
What are your thoughts, Dan? Well, honestly, I think that probably one of the there might be all kinds of things like what Jim was saying, which I'm more skeptical of. But what I am very my favorite hypothesis is we know it was a funerary complex. There's no question that Giza was later.
Yeah. Well, definitely later.
to me it seems like you know the idea that if you're going to be reincarnated if you're going to be immortal you need people to remember you like we would joke even with each other today we're going to sing they'll sing your songs around the campfires for generations to come right it's a tongue-in-cheek joke but that's not that's something that the ancients would have valued man they're going to remember me that's i'm going to be dead but people will speak my name well that's
something that a lot of ideas um on immortality they're contingent people quit speaking my name i'm not immortal anymore they need to remember right symbolic immortality and are we not mentioning names of pharaohs here today now so that's in my opinion i think that they sure that's a big part of it was just just to do it and that's one of the reasons you make it goofy and mysterious and weird because you make the bridge to nowhere just to make people scratch their head
Yeah.
When we're talking about this stuff, just to be Dan, the big old wet blanket, we talk about the potential of the pyramid being a technological device. There is one thing that I see talked about a lot, and I do have to point it out.
As a guy who worked in electricity, the piezoelectric thing, which if you don't know what piezoelectricity is, it's what makes a – when you stress a quartz crystal, you get a little electricity. It's what makes your quartz watch work and your igniters for your gas grills. Sure. Okay.
um so the theory will be well there's a lot of limestone and a lot of quartz in limestone therefore a little bit of stress in the limestone you get these big electric charges look at all that limestone they're making all this electricity the problem with that is that each one of those crystals has to have a piece of metal on both sides to harness that charge right electricity otherwise it just so if you have it then and then you've got this block full of those
So they would all have to be aligned in the same... They would all have to be aligned magnetically to begin with. Then you would have to have that entire block sandwiched in metal. And that's only if they were all aligned, which is extremely limiting. And we don't see any signs of this. And then you would have to have a place to harness it. So...
While they would definitely be ripping metal out of the structure. If it was abandoned and it had a shitload of metal in it and they were pulling it out, there was a metal between the courses we would find remnants of. On the cap, right? The cap's been missing since time immemorial, right?
But anyway, my point is, is that while I'm not opposed to the idea of it being a technological device, there's always like the funnel of reality that I always try to kind of bring us back to. It's like, yeah, we can, but we – electricity is getting a little bit too far out there.
Not that electricity itself isn't, but the electricity – piezoelectricity from the limestone blocks is something that if I was tasked with doing that as an electrician, I'd be like –
I haven't looked at that.
Is he super boring about it?
Yeah, and that's the kind of stuff that honestly gets pretty – that's where stuff gets pretty tricky because they measure those skyscrapers with lasers and shit, right? Right, exactly. They measure with transits.
Or even if you're out there with your own compass, it would be like – And that's – well, you've got to look at it too that you're dealing with atmospheric refraction. All these measurements will be taken at dawn. When the sun is just rising in the Nile River, you're going to have all this fucking – fog and shit. So your measurement is going to have some fog.
And every time they took a measurement off the sun. So when they do their archaeoastronomy work, that's one of the things they always take into account is how far, sorry, how far the, make me think about how far I'm from Mike, how far away they are from the river and how easily they can see things down there.
Because it's, there's a lot of, you know, the closer you get to the Nile River at dawn, man, the foggier the air is, the harder it is to see the sun.
What's that?
Yeah, and that's interesting. I've had him on the channel once. Jeffrey Drum. That's his last name, Drum.
That's what they say about everything out there. The part of Jeff's hypothesis that I found the most interesting, of course, it's the most mundane. So it has the most chance, in my opinion, of being accurate. Yeah. They would build things to get zapped with lightning because it charges the ground to make for better harvests.
That's something that the ancients would very easily have been able to notice. You know, lightning striking the ground is the kind of thing you're going to talk about, man. And if it starts farming better there, you're going to notice that. And so that part of it is interesting. That part is definitely interesting. The chemical parts of it and stuff are interesting, too. Don't get me wrong at all.
it's like sono chemistry he the way he explained it to me in the great pyramid like it's like sound resonance that i mean there's clearly some sort of resonant frequency happening in that great pyramid yeah and when you mix that with chemistry apparently that's a real thing yeah it is it is it's uh i just uh it's it needs more testing same as same as the digging in the ground and everything else so it would they need more testing but the first part that part of it in particular was i would have had him on and i was listening to him like okay
man, that's, that's a, that's a nice foundation, a good starting point for this because I, I, it's not too out there, man. It's not out there at all.
There's a lot of things like that.
What is funny is how many people will try to deny any sort of mystery with it when they just try to be like tomb and tomb alone. Yeah. That attitude.
And it was a lie.
I mean – When even the Egyptologists can't agree on exactly how it was made, it's like when they – can we not have a little bit of speculation and have a conversation? But instead they turn it into this fight. It has to be a battleground. That's really where I – That really blew my mind, sticking my nose in here.
I watched some debunking videos and stuff, but I had no idea how attached to politics a lot of this was going to end up being. That part really, really hurts my head. It's like, come on, man. What in the actual fuck politically do the big rocks, the ancient Egyptians have to do with today? Seriously, please enlighten me. I'm lost on that one.
Well, Garcilaso de la Vega, who was descended of an Inca noblewoman and a Spanish conquistador, is considered one of the best sources from those days, right? Best contemporary source from the post-colonial days of the Inca. He talks about the legend of them moving one of the big rocks in Cusco and it falling off of a precipice and killing like 3,000 people.
And it took like 40,000 or 30,000 people to move the stone. What he describes is basically unreal. Yeah. It's like when you read it, you're just like, okay, this didn't fucking happen.
And he describes it as a failure. Yes. Which is something that you find a lot. It's a very interesting little tidbit that you see in a lot of South American legends. Like there's the one that's just the legend of Name Lap. It's not even that complicated. There's a short-lived in history. The historical timeline is a short-lived little culture called Name Lap. They had...
a temple, a couple of pyramids, and they had an idol. According to their legend, they showed up via boat with this idol. They were able to move the idol. They put it inside of a pyramid. Then one of their descendants of their king, after a few generations, wants to move the idol, but he's incapable of doing so.
And there's more of the story, but that's my point there, is you see this kind of thing happen a lot in South America, where these little stories of, my ancestors moved this big-ass rock, and I try to do it and fail miserably. And it's catastrophically, in the same case with NameLab, it doesn't fall and kill 3,000 people.
The king ends up screwing a demon, and it causes a flood that kills his people. But anyway, same thing. It's catastrophic, but yeah. It's just interesting. You see these stories pop up a lot in South America, where it's like there seems to have been a tradition of the people before us could move bigger rocks than us now.
Yeah, well, it's the same thing in South America, too. That's Fifth Dynasty, yeah. Not very long, not much later at all.
Partially through the courses and stuff from the outside without the casing stones there. I mean, I'm not sure. You'd have to look at it with different possible areas of attack. But yeah, I don't see it being that invasive. I don't see any way it could be that invasive. And they can just patch up that hole when they're done. Steve, find the schematics of the Great Pyramid. Type in map.
There you go, map. Use muon if you want to find the... Muon? Yeah, muon is the particles that they use to find the... What was it?
When you go there, have you been there? I haven't. I want to go, but I haven't been able to.
I was just going to say, I'm waiting for the sound clip to come from this. Jimmy Corsetti admits to greasing people to fuck them in the great king's chamber. I've had sex in the Great Pyramid so many times. Jimmy Corsetti's ancient sex cult rituals.
We only do it on swastika covers. Oh my God, bro. Could you imagine?
And that was after having gone in the Valley of the Kings. Oh, wow. But even if it was, like I talk about being part of a funerary complex, like with my idea earlier, like the three stars being laid out in the pattern of Orion's belt, Osiris was Orion to the Egyptians, and that was the god that brought you through the underworld back to the other side, right? So it would make sense.
dan you're a veteran as well right brother yes yeah i didn't see uh i didn't have to do anything i was just on the reserves unfortunately i didn't like i was out by the time 9 11 happened and so i knew people that went over but i didn't have to do anything but um one thing that's always interesting about this stuff to me is as ever since vietnam we have this kind of consistent thing where the american people are always looking tongue-in-cheek at the wars that they served in
But even if it was, it would make sense they would put that there, and those three would be part of a resurrection ritual, potentially. But even if that was the case— I don't think it was made for any one individual pharaoh. And History for Granite, actually, if you guys know who he is on YouTube, he does a lot of in-depth deep-dives. What is he again? History for Granite. Okay.
He does a lot of deep-dives into the pyramid in ancient Egypt itself. And One of the things that he points out is the portcullis doors are set up in a manner that they are designed to be opened and closed again. They're not designed to be dropped and placed there permanently. They're designed to be revisited.
And it's almost like this might have been a spot that people, all three of those pyramids potentially, could have been a place where it was... You would stop, the Pharaoh dies, we do this, do this, do this, this is part of the ceremony, this is part of the ceremony, this is part of the ceremony.
And that would explain why when we did crack open the one sarcophagus that was in, I forget which pyramid, the one sarcophagus they found still sealed in a pyramid when they opened it, it was fucking empty. Which is bizarre. But it wouldn't be so bizarre if they were all symbolic.
You just bring the pharaoh in here and sprinkle him around a little bit, set him next to the sarcophagus, and then take him out after a month. This is just step one of... And if you look at their theories, or their legends, excuse me, they have like 42 gates to go through, depending on what time that you're looking at which dynasty.
They have all these different ideas about how many gates you had to go through, how many stations you had to go through, the weighing of the heart and all that shit.
wouldn't be outside of this the realm of possibility for them to emulate that on the ground the pyramids were 100 tombs oh yeah and anyone that disagrees is a nazi it's very clear yes exactly it is kind of funny actually how you can't have that discussion with some people i mean we've all got the people like to give the archaeologist a little bit of a fair shake here.
We've all got people in our comment section that are on the other side of things that are certain that their theory's right, and they'll come in there and be like, you're a fucking idiot. Look, man, all you got to do is watch this one video, go read this one article, and you'll know everything you need to know. So it's not like it's just the debunkers, the skeptics that have that attitude.
But fuck me, they seem to be the worst about it. And they're certainly the ones that stand between guys like us and actually getting... into that fucking hidden chamber. Right. And so that's, uh, like, and some of the attitudes, like some of these people, um,
When you were asking about Gobekli Tepe and you started bringing that up, and John Hoops, the archaeologist that has made a career basically of attacking Graham Hancock, he made this post that was like, as far as I'm concerned, they can encase the Gobekli Tepe in concrete. We've got enough to keep all of that. He said that? Yeah. It's in writing. It's on Twitter.
He even says, though, they could use a visitor center like they do the Lasso Caves. It's like he fucking straight up. And even if that's not where he's standing, even if that's not his position, if it's hyperbole, the fact of the matter is this in this PR discussion about what to do with Gobekli Tepe, we have Jimmy Corsetti, a.k.a. the Nazi, a.k.a. the fucking pseudoscientist. Pseudoarchaeologist.
Yes, the nut job, the conspiracy theorist versus the tenured scientist. It's an educator. I studied at Yale and Harvard, sir.
uh special permission to like edit wikipedia articles well it's not special permission but he's been doing it for so long that he's just in charge of a lot he controls locked accounts like i can't how the fuck does anyone get access to do that it's a good question i think eventually i think what they end up doing i could be wrong i think what happens is you end up kind of consistently getting other people to moderate because there's wikipedia moderators so eventually you work your way up into being the reddit mod of wikipedia well now it's your fucking reddit page
But if you look before that, you find very little of that. You find very little of that from Korea, clearly very little of that from World War II for obvious reasons. But even you go back to like the Spanish-American War and stuff where you can look at it historically and be like, man, it's a little dicey. How the fuck are we getting there exactly?
Yeah, he teaches them that. He says it's actually part of his curriculum.
Right. And let's be real clear there with that tweet that I'm talking about. We have Jimmy Corsetti saying, go do some fucking archeology. And we have an archeologist going, nah, nah, fuck you. I don't like Jimmy. I don't want to do the archeology.
And it's the same thing with so many, look at Danny Hillman, naughty with Jaja's work at a track attacked because it's association with Graham Hancock, right? If it hadn't been for that, we wouldn't have had a retraction, all that shit with the Ganung Padang, right? That's the guy who did Ganung Padang. It's the same kind of thing. It's just like your association with the wrong people.
in case it can concrete.
You didn't see what – it was the advent, in my opinion, the advent of putting the person in the trench with the video camera. That's what really changed it. It got American people to just look at this stuff in a different light. Right.
Yeah. Me and him used to get along well, but the whole Flint Dibble debacle.
right and now with the internet like you're saying i mean it's it's completely different now the i mean the i'm sure could you imagine what the would your drill sergeants have done if somebody was live streaming their on basic training i see all the time this guy's like oh yeah this is our basic training today here's what i'm doing what the man i would have been dead they would have shot me they would have made a court martial my ass not literally shot me but seriously that had been considered treason and now they're just like oh yeah
compelled by flint's description of it being natural even rogan was like yeah this looks natural like graham explain that i don't remember it that way but you could be right i'd have to go in places it in places the only good he does look like it may well be natural i mean it to play devil's advocate if it did sink 12 000 years ago underwater it's been underwater for 12 000 fucking years man it's gonna have some natural looking shit right sure um
But to weigh in on what Jim was pointing out with that, Flint was not just dismissive of it. A better example of the same thing was when they talked about Ganong Padang and they were talking about the potential artifacts, the Kajang Stone. And Flint just laughed at it, literally laughed. And it's like, OK. Ma'am, I talked about this before.
Carl Sagan was a great science fucking communicator, and one of the reasons he was because he knew who his audience was. His audience was interested amateurs, and interested amateurs didn't come in there because they wanted to know the spectrometry of a star. They wanted to know about aliens and shit, right?
So when you come in and somebody asks about this site, this is Yonaguni, an underwater monument, and you're just... Well, what you have effectively done is not only have you dismissed this interested amateur, but you've left the vacuum open for Jim, for me, for Graham to be the one that fucking says, hey, this is what Yonaguni is.
And then they cry about it afterwards and say, well, why does nobody like real archaeology? Well, because you deliberately made it fucking boring. You wear an Indiana Jones hat because you know that Indiana Jones was the reason you started getting into this. You know, that's what's interesting. You know, that's what's fun. But you don't want to look for no lost Ark in the cupboard.
Well, it also betrays the – there's a couple of things that betray the mentality going into it. One, I have a hard time with the maybe he didn't lie because, as you said, he's finishing Graham's sentences. He was fucking prepared. Yes, very prepared. When he's putting the wrong slide on the screen, that's not – and that's – That's not a mistake, bro.
That's not something you can just say, oh, sorry, man, I handed you the wrong piece of paper here. You've been preparing that one a long time. So there's a lot of that to begin with. But also in addition to that, that whole afterwards he posts the video right away talking about, oh, I'm feeling good. I kicked Graham's ass. Oh, check out this mean people. Okay.
Do you think that mentality just immediately sprang into his brain after the debate was over? Fuck no, that thing was fostered there. It's been there all his life.
And let's be clear. I mean, as a scientist coming in to weigh in on his field of science or the pseudo version of his field of study, why the fuck are you talking about this political shit? What the fuck does that have to do with rocks in the ground and fucking all this metallurgy and all these evidence? No, no, no. This is a red herring.
Specifically designed so that when you Google, you see that headline. It's a scorched earth tactic, 110%. And the guy's done it to me with other scientists that I've tried to talk to and stuff since then. Ed Bonhart was a guy I'd like to work with, but I know that some... archeologists have been hounding him and telling him that they, I'm a bad person that I shouldn't be spoken with or whatever.
And I know I've been told by other archeologists that I, they want to work with me, but they're afraid to do it because of their career. So even other YouTubers that aren't archeologists that are just like, I'm,
i watched him to uh the ice core specialist i watched uh flint in real time lighting him say that dan believes he's wanting this to prove ancient high technology exists when he knows as well as you guys do that i don't believe in ancient high tech as far as that goes so it's um and he knew that before like i i'm different than jim i got along with john and flint when i first started making jobs yeah i was considered kind of uh
a tolerable conspiracy nut, right? I'm the one that's he he'll at least turn around and he might say that we're wrong about this, but he'll turn around and say they're wrong about that, too. So we'll put up with him. He's usually following the science.
But when I started pointing out that when they talk about racism, particularly the letter that they sent to Netflix about Graham Hancock, the Society of American Archaeology, That letter, I started hammering away at the falsehoods in that and how this narrative isn't quite accurate. You guys are bullshitting things here to make things seem a little different than they are. What was that letter?
They tried to get Netflix to make the documentary series a science fiction series.
And the big thing there was they said that what I took real umbrage with was they said that This idea dated back to Ignatius Donnelly and his books, and then they tried to tie it in with him being a white supremacy type of person. And the stuff came from before that. It gets really complicated, but the bottom line is it's bullshit.
Ignatius Donnelly, his Wikipedia page has fucking his sources on there that were not racist. Not the Mayans were the Atlanteans. They weren't white supremacists at all. But they skip that because they can't say they want to make it look like Atlantis hunting started with white supremacy. And that's how they portrayed it to Netflix.
So when I called them out on it, it was kind of fucking radio silence for about a month. And it was during Christmas time. So I let everybody chill. But after I started pushing on it and pushing on it and pushing on it, I started making enemies really quickly. It was like, this is a political thing. Clearly, it had fuck all to do with the science.
And that's when I started losing friends that were archaeologists pretty fast.
As you click on that blue link there where it says the SAA's letter, you can read the letter itself. See where it says letter in blue? It's short and it's – This is the actual letter. Scroll down to the – in between two pages and you can read the spicy bit. Yeah. Yeah.
And really quickly, scroll up for one second again and look at those really fast. Notice that both of those first two, they give something away very telling here. This is complaining about the science, right?
If they're complaining about the science being wrong, why does it say it vigorously dismisses archaeologists and the practice?
I mean, what the fuck are we on about here?
Any of the vases that have good provenance in a country like the United States will be repatriated. The very fact that Matt is able to purchase those tells you that there's an issue with the provenance, which is why guys like David Miano will pick at the provenance and say, well, we don't know for sure these came from ancient Egypt. And it's also why Matt... It's funny.
They play both sides of this.
And Matt spends stupid fucking money on these vases, and he's not alone, right? Right. Adam Young spends stupid money on these vases. You think that the antiquity dealers that are selling these things are going to be like, oh, you know what? Fuck this guy. Fuck all my credibility because I'm going to get $10,000 off this vase.
No, no, no, no. They ain't going to deal with fakes.
You want to grab that little 3D print right there? I pointed the one right behind you. That's a better example. Because it's got the, yeah, the eggshell bottom like you were talking about. There you go. Yep. And so to the audience, I'm zooming this camera. I can't even be in the room with that.
It's crazy.
That's what people call it. He said something along those lines, you know.
Yes, it was.
So not even and they feel like they'll they'll miss the hard parts. It's like, OK,
we all accept that granite can be cut with a abrasive you use a copper tube and abrasive and you can drill a hole in granite i don't think anybody's going to deny that so it's like yes you can make the blank of the vase with the whatever right that's fine now now make it precise that's i that's that's the where the rubber meets the road and they consistently aren't doing that and it's honestly it's kind of embarrassing because um
As you know, they're trying to do this skeptical debunker thing and they're not even taking the hard part. They're being fucking lazy about it. And if you're like if team science is fucking lazy, well, then where does that leave team pseudoscience? They can fucking run amok, man. Yeah, there's so. It's really irritating to me because I do value science a lot.
And I think that in all honesty, we need both sides of that human psyche to find where these things came from. We're going to have people that look at that and they're going to just like 1,001 ideas. And then you need other people to bring that back into reality. Between the two of them, you end up with an answer at some point. As it is, we have this disconnect.
And when you remove the scientists from the discussion or the skeptics from the discussion, you end up with – well, as I like to bring up a lot, Einstein famously said that the theory of relativity is almost unrecognizable to me now that the mathematicians have gotten a hold of it.
right einstein he writes a theory of relativity and he gets fine-tuned and fine-tuned and fine-tuned and fine-tuned and fine-tuned at a thousand different he's got this idea that's generally accurate and then it just gets beat into actual science but it didn't start there and not that he was a pseudoscientist but he was more of a dreamer than the really hardcore number crunchers that followed in his wake and it takes fucking both matt
That's all I'm getting at. And we're really eliminating half of it right now. They've eliminated themselves from the conversation. They won't be like Carl Sagan and say, let's talk about aliens. Pat us on the head if you need to, whatever. Sit down and fucking talk to us. They won't do that. They're just going to look at us down their nose. And so, yeah.
Right. That in my mind is I think that comes from a psychological cop out. Well, they want to. A lot of these guys are really diehard lefties. And if you're anti-racist and you want to fight racism, boy, wouldn't it be serendipitous to wake up one day and find out the thing you went for school for just happens to be just miraculously aligned with combating racism.
Yeah.
I think that's probably where the big disconnect was to begin with. Graham came in with we're going to discuss we're going to debate and discuss whether or not there was a lost ancient civilization. And Flint came in there with the idea of I'm going to explain to him why I'm going to prove why there cannot be one. He says that multiple times. I'm going to prove to you why that could not.
I think Graham was caught aback by that. I know I would be if I was sitting down to talk to a scientist, because as soon as those words come out of their mouth, they're not a scientist anymore, man. Scientists don't say, I'm going to prove to you why this cannot be.
All the evidence currently indicates. I'm going to show you why archaeologists don't think that. That's how you say that. But as soon as he says, I'm going to show you why that cannot be. Flint had the mindset of I am going to win. Graham had this mindset of we're going to discuss ancient mysteries.
And you were you saying that just gave every archaeologist watching a semi chubby right there. They're all like, fuck, yeah, fuck, yeah, that works.
Yeah.
Imagine how hard that must be for him to considering that Santa's black and that he married her in the 70s back when. There had been a lot of white folk that probably called him race traitor back in those days. So he goes through that, raises his kids, deals with all the bullshit that probably got involved in that. And then he gets to the time when society finally turns.
He's like, all right, fuck yeah. Now, finally, I've been through it. I've been through the, oh, now I'm a racist because I like...
Yeah.
It's something I've been saying that one in same regards to Trump since like 2015. It's like if you guys don't stop just screaming every time he gets two scoops of ice cream instead of one, you're going to inoculate his supporters to the point where they won't believe a goddamn thing that you say about him.
that's what happens yeah um yeah one of the things that it's funny with the you asking flint i wait as you're saying this is what you asked we should just excavate these three sites i'm shaking my head because i i've joked with you about it before but this is the reality of it though i've seen the way that they react to jim mentioning sites if he was to just get on twitter and then once a week be like you know what we need more excavations in rome
I think they need to dig underneath this. I need to do it. They would fucking we'd have all these archaeologists. We've excavated enough in Rome. We don't need to dig anymore there at all. He could kill the entire fucking field in a year or two, just like pick every site. And by the end of a couple of years, there's only like three sites left.
You'll have all the archaeologists fighting to go there because they'll have already said no reason to go to the rest.
I completely agree. To me, the smoking gun, the worst example of that was when you were talking about the trees on Gobekli Tepe. They're defending it and saying, oh, that's fine. It's no big deal. This is the kind of thing that we do. It's like, fuck no. I can find you numerous archaeological papers on the problems with having trees on fucking ancient sites. I mean, come on.
It's no-brainer shit, man. Olive trees damage foundations. It's not surprising.
The government would pay them more, but go ahead.
And let's be clear, the idea that these roots are somehow magically not going to be damaged or anything, that's just ridiculous. Like when I was reading the archaeological literature on the problem with tree roots, so I got this from them, not from Jimmy. Tree roots follow water, crazily enough.
So especially in a dry area like Gobekli Tepe, if, say, they built one of those enclosures around a well, which would be perfectly reasonable, that one's going to have tree roots shooting right the fuck down the thing. And the problems this can cause... For example, in one place, because of that, it penetrates, you know what stratigraphy is, right?
So it penetrates those layers, chops right through them. So there's a snail, for example, and I forget the species, but in the medieval Europe, they use this snail to determine a timeline because it only shows up in certain areas in England after a certain date. But in areas where the tree roots punch through wells like that, it shows up before that. It fucks their dating all up.
so it not only does it damage the site on a very real you can see it level it damages on molecular level for sake uh the tree roots are an entire you know uh ecosystem it's not just the plants tree roots there's going to be bacteria and all kinds of enzymes and growing around with them it's going to change the chemicals in the soil so it just
To me, the very fact that they would argue that, they're not scientifically illiterate people, but they don't like Jimmy Corsetti, and he brought up tree roots on top of Gobekli Tepe. And that's really where I ended up focusing so much of my energy in this sphere, because it's just so goddamn weird to me. It's like we've got...
I mean, I know that back in times of the Roman times, sorry, demonetization for you.
I got it wrong, too.
Yeah, the reasons why, well – dr hillman nadiwajaja is a geologist not an archaeologist so in the site what they did was they dug down um to the first layer and underneath the first layer of stones and stuff they sunk uh they sunk uh drill cores and they pulled up big so uh cores of soil and stuff and what they found is uh
some of what they're calling fill dirt so that's what he's using he's saying that the two different places that there's dirt there that's nowhere found in that immediate area that was put there must have been put there by humans and they're dating the biological material which is grass and stuff it's not like there's human bones or charred artifacts and that's the biggest problem is there's no
artifacts or like uh burnt bones or anything there's just that khajong dagger and a couple or khajong stone and a couple other small rocks like that but there didn't find since there was no archaeologists out there shaking screens they don't have a bunch of little chips and flakes and 150 different little artifacts like they normally would so that's a big one right there as to why uh there's so much skepticism involved from the archaeological community towards that idea
Something I want to say really fast, though, to prove that it is absolutely fucking jealousy. I keep invoking Carl Sagan as a science communicator. He was not obviously not a YouTuber and he obviously had a, you know, a degree and stuff. And he was a teacher and he got a shitload of jealousy from his colleagues, shitload of shit from his colleagues. You're not doing real science.
Yeah. He does say that stuff a lot. I mean, if I may, I find it pretty – I think it's the opposite of a social media savant move. I think it's kind of a – This is kind of – and you should have probably thought about this a little more. He was probably just – I think Jim's right. He's enthusiastic, and he's just like, I love you guys. I love Rome.
You're just out there talking to the layman, talking to the masses. What's wrong with you? So it's the same kind of thing. Let's be real clear about scientists. Some of these guys, a good chunk of humanity that is really good with data and stuff is just not socially adept. They're just a little awkward. They're a little off. And there's nothing wrong with that.
But that can make it fucking hard to be a YouTuber, man.
And the recognition of that is something that the ego makes it difficult because As I keep saying about free advancement, it takes two different thinking. Like with here, Jim's more apt to dream about something than I am. And I'm more apt to say, hey, Jim, come on. I don't think that's quite accurate. But between the two of us, we get along just fucking fine.
We come up with good ideas as far as I'm concerned. So as a metaphor for all of us, it's like we could be going that route. Instead, what do we get? We get polarization. We get anger. We get basically a mirror of politics all across social media.
I don't know that for a fact.
Serpent Mound was contacted by somebody. In Tennessee? Yeah, Serpent Mound wouldn't let Graham Hancock film there. Neither would Cahokia Mound in Illinois. They wouldn't let him film.
It's just so funny to me. I retweeted that. I was like, the SAA, we're past being racist. Archaeology is no longer racist. We're past all that. It's you pseudo guys, blah, blah, blah. Also the SAA. We need to hire somebody to help us not be racist.
There are times when it comes to archaeology, I'd look at it.
You said D-E-I, right?
But that's the kind of thing that – I mean, it's too polarizing. There's certain people that, like – there's a huge swath of the population that is too stupid to even, like, look at the context of a quote. You give them a tiny little snippet, and they're just going to take that. They won't even look what came before or after. Mm-hmm. Something like that is feeds right into all of their hate.
That's not it. If I remember right, you posted this before. You posted once about that before you posted that.
Oh, yeah.
Full-time DC position. Scroll down. Scroll down. Yeah. I found it on Google under DEI specialist in Washington. Click that one. Salary details.
Yeah, and that's the Society for American Archaeology. So I'm wondering what's even up with that. Why do they need DEI exactly? I mean, I can understand when you're dealing with tribes and stuff, there's that whole racial aspect. Native American ruins. and stuff like that? Well, yeah, yeah. I try to be like respectful of that. In Washington State, we have a lot of that going on.
It's not, the tribes have a lot of power and they frequently are stopping archaeologists or working with them. And so I could get where you would need, but I don't think that's what DEI does, right? I mean, it's not like a- It has to do with hiring. I was going to say, it's not hiring like in-house. What the fuck do they need that for, man? I mean, can't they just get an app for that?
How do they, how does the- No, really, isn't there just an app for that? You just press like a few different buttons and you get your like,
seriously that doesn't make any goddamn sense how does this organization make money they don't they steal it from the government it's all government member dues so you can be a member and i don't know how much they charge and that's where the majority of their actual operating costs come from their membership dues they also middleman money for the government like uh every year they go to congress and say hey we need a bunch of money for all these different archaeology things in the country and then they they divvy it up now according to the archaeologists of course they don't keep any of that for themselves but i'm you know
Just to clarify, a bunch of money.
And so I personally, I think that was kind of a bad move on his part, although it definitely went viral.
It's a middleman. And just to let you know how corrupt that stuff can be, the majority of archaeology done in this country, the vast majority, is what's called cultural resource management. And that's where... You're going to build a bridge. You got to make sure it's not being built. Sure. OK, so golf courses. This is these are private institutions.
This isn't there's no Florida state CRM firm for the state CRM organization. It's a there's private businesses. So you hire them and you pay them. And so.
If the Society for American Archaeology is like, you know, we really need to get some CRM work done over in this part of the country, for example, and they advocate for money over there, they're literally advocating to give it to a private corporation. There's a lot of room for shitty things there to happen.
it's too bad you can't really get it out of science even but uh it would be nice if we could at least remove some of that corruption from just the basic stuff i mean i i uh you're always going to have corruption like that like i've worked as an electrician for a long time and i've seen a thousand times where a homeowner would be like i can do this on my own but they're building a really rich home and the guy's clearly a white collar guy and so when the inspector comes in he
looks at the guys like you've got the money to hire one of us. I was an electrician for 20 years or I wouldn't be a fucking inspector. You got the money to hire one of us and you didn't.
uh you didn't do that outlet right you didn't do that right but he doesn't tell him that he just says you failed because of this outlet you failed because of this and where if i was standing there he would have been like dude you just need to fix this real quick and i'll sign off okay cool have a nice day it's just the way the world is man so no it is yeah what do you do um i want to talk a little bit about atlantis yeah yeah
Well, that's one of the reasons that myself... To answer your question about the evidence for Atlantis, I mean, I would take it— Atlantis is a term that I kind of use as an umbrella term. I think a lot of people do, but I think it's one of the important things to note out the gate. You're looking at, for a lost civilization, that's possibly one of them, the Rishat structure, or Rishat structure.
That's quite possibly where they got the idea of Atlantis from. But that idea could have come from multiple different things. And in addition to it, like you read Plato's account of it— You imagine if there was a lost civilization from 10,000 years ago, and so you go back a few thousand years, and 7,000 years has passed or whatever, and people are writing about it.
They're going to inject their culture into it. And so you read Critias and Timaeus, and you see that they happened to use the same metals on the wall that – The Greeks used on their temples, too. Who would have guessed, right? Wait, what?
Or a column. The Atlanteans, their temples had the same precious metal that the Greeks liked to use.
Yeah, allegedly. Okay. And they had a democracy, and they had all this. This is stuff that was very Greek-ish.
right yeah and of course it was because it's a fucking greek story man right so i think that's one of the things to look for or to pay attention for is when we look at different cultures we might find the same story in japan and it's going to be way different it's not going to have democracy it's not going to have or column it's going to have fishing and it's going to have more focus on the sea so um
To answer your question, back to it, there's a few things that are like the shared gods you mentioned earlier, the master of animals. You've probably seen that one before. Like there's pictures of a woman with either a tiger on both sides of the snakes. I've seen that. Very common. The navel holding statues. You seem to this seems. Yeah. Yeah.
And you see these in South America, and it also seems to quite frequently correlate with the origins of low-level metallurgy. The things like the stone clamps, the metal clamps that are used, the fact that those hop the ocean, like the nubs are one thing, but the clamps, to me... Like if you go to a house and the studs in a wall are on 16-inch centers, right? It's okay, this is a fucking machine.
Yeah, like with a laser.
By the way, we have two questions. I think it'd be cool if we got them here. Oh, cool. Instead of, I mean, it wouldn't be long enough.
That thing?
329.
How do you spell that?
Wow.
Oh, gosh. Nice. Come on.
What's that divided by 24? Divided by 24 is per hour, 300 people an hour.
Fight it by 60. Five people a minute. Five people a night.
I think what he's saying is no, he's, he, he doesn't believe that he, he's not stating his own beliefs. What he's saying is he is repeating the text.
Is that me? Why are you questioning whether or not Bob has read the Bible? What do you think, if there's possible that he missed something, what do you think that is?
And you're referring to the original sources.
I just gave myself to Christ.
So Amin told me, and two million people on my podcast, most of which believe what he is saying, because we have no way of discerning whether he's lying or not. We have no way of finding out, reading these texts. But the way Amin described it to us, and the
there's millions of views on this stuff, that the word Christ in ancient Greek, the first time the word Christ was ever used in the history of humanity was for somebody that was using drugs.
No, no, no, no.
Mm-hmm.
I don't think we need to throw anything out the window. All I'm looking for – Yes, we are. I'm not, personally. I know you're not. But he is. I don't think – I think it's okay that he is. I think it's okay that he is. But I don't think –
So are you. And so am I. My goal here is to just have a dialogue. No one's willing to have this dialogue. And I think it's freaking incredible that we're not having a dialogue.
Do I have to go to confession? Do I have to confess my sins to anybody? To God. Just to God. Here and now. You know what they are. I confess my sins on every podcast. I don't hide anything.
Yes. It's your turn. It's your turn.
The Septuagint. Oh, no, no, he's talking about the Chemical Muse? You're talking about the Chemical Muse, the book that he published?
Who published Chemical Muse?
I don't necessarily reject Christ. Yes, you do. I don't think I reject him. It's not a... I believe Christ was a real person.
No. It wasn't a theological book. No. It was a history book. It was a history book on Roman pharmacy. I stand by the offer that I made. Yeah.
We're just here to let the audience learn from you guys and listen to these ideas clash.
Okay, so what do you mean by that? I have a question. You understand the burden of sin. What did you mean by that?
Oh yeah, you talked about this in the first podcast.
Right.
Okay.
I'm skeptical.
And then was there something about your first sexual experience losing your virginity that had something to do with this?
Okay, let me ask you this. I don't know the answer to this. Well, hold on. Were you a virgin because of your devotion?
That's my job to be skeptical. I'm a journalist.
Okay, okay, okay. Let him interrogate you. Sorry. And then... No, you're good. You're good.
Is this okay?
Well, he was saying. I think the reason he was explaining that was because he felt like he was sinning by actually going out and having sex with a woman. So he had to masturbate and he felt guilty of that.
So your life has been better since you left Christ?
I want to make one— Don't all people experience that?
Oh, they were thieves.
The thieves were crucified on both sides?
So my perspective, and I think a lot of people listening to this, hear the history of the word laestes and the translations of the word laestes. which Julius Caesar famously called the guys that kidnapped him, the pirates that kidnapped him and held a ransom for him. He crucified them and he called them publicly laestates, right?
These guys were people who kidnapped a child, Julius Caesar when he was a child. So when you see Jesus saying,
being caught in this scene in the bible in the public park with the kid and he goes i'm not a lace dace i'm not a lace dace and then eight hours later he's crucified which which which is what happens to people who are kidnapping children that's the gospel according to amen no no no but that's that's the true history of what happened no it's not the true oh it is not the true history that's not what happened to julius caesar why don't you
I want to take that to an unbiased source because by definition, somebody who's in a seminary is going to be biased.
I agree. They're all going to be by everybody's people who are in the middle of this though, people who aren't on the religious side, people who aren't, who think Amun is full of shit. I've talked to people who think he's completely full of shit. And I asked them about this history of Caesar or Julius Caesar and crucifying Lestes and the word Lestes being used. And they can agree on that.
They don't necessarily agree with his theories, but they do agree on that principle.
So that's, that's what I'm, that's what I'm, I'm just asking, do you understand my position?
Do you understand why I'm skeptical though?
I think this will open the door to it. Now that you've kind of broken the seal, I think now this will open the door to it.
They're afraid. They're afraid. We're doing this to learn. I think we're learning a lot here.
Let's see the driver's license. We need proof. Can you punch it on this, Steve?
It doesn't say almond.
My skepticism comes in where people like you and people like you say these things that sound good, right? But all this stuff is coming from texts. And I don't know how to read the texts. And everybody says the texts say something different.
We need to make this. Hold on, please. Yeah. We need to make this something that people can learn from. That's the purpose of this. Not YouTube friendly. No. No. Just respectful so people can learn from this. We need to make this. No F-bombs. No F-bombs. What's the point? You're just going to ruin it.
Where do you think it comes from?
He's letting you talk. Let's let him describe. I'm not sure he's going to tell you the whole truth. Well, if he doesn't, then you can correct him.
Well, your name, your public name was D, what'd you call it? Did you ever call yourself David or was it?
He's a Harvard classical philologist.
People in Christianity, in theology, that ascribe to that religion, they all say the same thing. People that are outside that religion say different things. People like Dr. Hillman say different things. Everyone has their own interpretation of these texts, and I don't know what's real.
I can't see it. I can't see it.
It says Medea.
I think this is fascinating.
Yeah.
What is your understanding of Lady Babylon? What is your understanding of Lady Babylon, your personal understanding?
He's not. He's out here and he's been talking to you for 30 minutes.
I am not.
Right. So I need to ask that.
And see what happens.
All right. Are we wrapping it up, Bob? Or you got a book or something?
All right, we're wrapping it up.
Okay.
All right, that's enough. We don't need to call names. Bob showed up here.
I will not put up with that. Are you still going to pay him? He engaged with you. Are you still going to pay him? If he agrees to let me publish this, then yes. I'm not going to pay him. I'm going to donate to the church.
Cash.
All right. Let's not be rude.
You should have finished with that. You should put that on the... Yeah, well.
Thank you. Thank you, Bob. I really appreciate your time.
What?
Are you recording that part? Yeah, it's recording.
If you are God's son.
He's the only one. Dozens of people who came here. He's the only one.
I had my say.
You have the right.
If you always existed in eternity past.
If it is true.
The only forgiveness of sins.
Is your death upon the cross.
I need to know that. Show that to me, Lord. Show that to me, Lord.
I will hand you all of my sins.
To be forgiven.
And walk the newness of life.
My prayer.
I try to be.
Right.
So now I can watch out for any sort of signs that I get from God.
Okay.
I see. Oh. I understand.
Okay.
I want to ask you if you think, based on everything you've learned about Amun and listening to the podcast, do you think that he is truly possessed by a demon?
So are they rolling right now? I don't know. Are we rolling? Yeah. Okay. Yes, we are rolling. So where were we? You were explaining to me how I could give myself to Jesus.
We've got to be nice to each other. We've got to be nice.
Let's just discuss the facts, the text, and everything we're here to discuss. Let's not call each other names or be rude. Is that okay, Bob?
Which would be... First of all, we have to appreciate the fact that Bob is the only one who has the balls to come in here and talk to you.
This was Harvard.
No, that's why I'm here.
Ask him kindly what your question is.
I'm about 30 seconds from walking out. We have to take turns. I'm going to ask the question, and then we have to stop, and we have to let Bob give his response.
Bob, the stage is yours.
So if they participated in Yahwism or if they believed in Yahweh or Yahu, they would incorporate his name into their name.
14th century. Whoa.
I had somebody in here who told me it meant Hail Zeus.
That's out of the question.
Like they would draw little pictures next to it. Yeah, exactly.
And did Judaism come directly out of Yahwism? It's a great question. Isn't that like the consensus? That's the academic consensus.
When you say before the Common Era, you mean B.C.? Yeah. Okay, got it.
They don't betray.
And when you say the Bible, are you talking about the Torah?
That is.
So the academic or religious people viewpoint or consensus on this is that Judaism started around 1200. Is that right? Or what is the date that like Judaism started?
Right. Like by and large, what is the idea of when Judaism started?
Okay.
So the earliest people will say is 2000. Something.
Okay. Yeah.
What set you in this direction from the start? Like, how did you get interested in this stuff? And what led you to specifically dig into things like this?
And if you want to not be extra-biblical, you want to stay inside the Bible, when is it from?
About 400. All right.
Is this new or has this been known for forever? Well, certainly not forever. How long have academics been aware of this and been talking about it publicly?
Scared the shit out of me.
That's something I've talked about on this podcast so many times. And that's another funny thing about biblical scholars that I've had on the show. They all have different ideas of things.
different opinions on events or or historical texts and i always thought it was an odd thing for someone to be a religious scholar because typically those people are they subscribe to the very religion that they're studying and they're dedicating that their their work to so like there's like a built-in bias to that's right that's right i write a lot about that and uh about this bias and i've lectured about this
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So like in the middle of the Nile, right?
say things that most of their colleagues will disagree with or cast them outside of like the lane that they're supposed to be in because they had the risk of being whatever shunned by their colleagues or their university or, or whatever it is, the institution that they're a part of. They like to be, you know, they like to be a part of the team.
They don't want to go outside the box most of the time.
Which is like 500 miles from Giza, roughly.
Have you received any sort of pushback or any sort of backlash for talking about this kind of stuff?
And Yahweh, back then, it wasn't necessarily like an exclusive thing to be a Yahwist. You could partake, pick and choose a dozen religions and practice them all, just like you go out to a restaurant on any given day of the week. You can pick and choose. It's not like today in Christianity and Judaism where you subscribe to one thing for life, essentially.
It's so crazy. Yeah, these are the blinders that we have. I just read this book by a guy named Thomas Paine. I'm sure you're familiar with him. But he lays it out in such a compelling way where he explains that like the Bible is essentially a book of testimony. So today, in today's world, in court, if somebody has a testimony, it doesn't mean it's truth, right? It's just a testimony.
It's somebody's recollection of something that happened that they claim to be as true. It doesn't mean it has to be true. It's up to the jury.
okay now take it and make it anonymous so now say we haven't we have testimony but we don't know who the person who said this is and we don't actually have it straight from their mouth right now take it to another level and say it's the most extraordinary thing you've ever heard in your life by an anonymous person and his testimony they said the sun and the moon stood still by the command of one person so like if that's what the bible is made up of
That's in, that's so crazy. And it's just like, it really like that book that he, I forget the name of the book right now. I think it's the age of reason. where it really, really lays out the history of the different versions of the Bible and how it was edited, redacted, and added to over millennia.
And who was the first person to mention Moses? This is one of the things I spoke with Neil about this. And he was explaining to me essentially that Moses wasn't ever mentioned until like a thousand years after he died.
If he's real.
Similar stories or no?
Okay. I want to talk about Alexandria. Yeah. So is it true there was absolutely – so I think basically what you've already said is that there was no evidence of the Bible before the Library of Alexandria. Yeah.
And so who, I know you explained this on Neil's podcast. I thought it was fascinating. The two guys who were students of Aristotle who created Alexandria. Yeah.
Okay.
It wasn't just – Silicon Valley, something like that.
That's crazy. Yep.
Automated. Oh, this says using ropes and pulleys. Okay.
And what were the coin-operated machines for? Like, what did they use those for?
Like a lever and a pulley.
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Nothing, what do you mean nothing?
They might have been familiar with... This was the source for the later biblical. This could have been the first sources taken out of context for the later Bible.
What empire? I don't know. I'm not familiar with that empire.
So out of all of the texts that were in the Library of Alexandria, do you know what language they were in for the most part?
Everyone except me. I know I've heard of Cyrus.
It's Judeo-Greek. For people who are new to this stuff, can you explain what the Septuagint was?
Judeo-Greek.
Yeah.
Yeah, why would you create some new Jewish Greek? Why wouldn't you just make it into real Greek?
How much Hebrew literature is there from that part, that time?
The Dead Sea Scrolls are from when again?
They're like 200?
Like how much, like when it comes to Hebrew versus Greek, like how much... I don't know, how much philosophical text, medical text, legal text do we have in Hebrew?
Nothing.
So my understanding of the languages and the translation is that, especially when it comes to Greek and Hebrew, is that Greek is this deep, complex language that has over a million unique words. And Hebrew only has like 7,000 unique words, give or take, something around that, which is like an insane... The difference between the two is crazy. And when you translate...
that you can't translate from something less technical to something more technical. Now you saying that it's Judeo-Greek is a whole different, it makes it really like throws a wrench into this whole thing. But like the way it was described to me before was that Greek, and this is just my analogy for it, is that Greek is like a flying saucer of a language, right?
And then Hebrew is like a single engine prop plane. So how do you find a flying saucer and then try to reverse engineer into a single engine prop plane? Like it doesn't make sense to go from something super technical and deep to something way less technical and deep that has way fewer words, unique words.
And then in some instances I've seen on a debate actually on Neil's channel where two people were debating this is that there are words in Greek that actually take like two or three words in Hebrew just to make that one word in Greek.
Right. And Julius Africanus also said something, I think, that I heard around the second century A.D. or something like that, where he looked at it and said, this looks like an original Greek work. I don't know if that you go that far into history.
He said that this Septuagint looks like it reads like a Greek original. That's what Julius Africanus allegedly said. Stephen, maybe you can find that on Google.
How do you say it? Achaemenid. Achaemenid.
A decade or two.
Oh, wow, that's a good map. Look, that's a lot.
Yeah. And even with like the library of Alexandria, it was right on the water. Right. So it was not a great place to store text like those. Those works would get diminished by just like the the climate and the humidity there. So like they constantly had to have people that were rewriting books and making copies of them. And like, who knows what was lost during that?
It's such an interesting thing the way you say that they didn't look at history the same way we look at it. And the way that people today in our culture look at history is so much different. And then when we try to... fit that into our frame of view of history is crazy.
Holy smokes.
You know, when you have people doing, writing about this stuff for different motivations, whether it be just mythological or if you want to call it historical or if you want, if it was for, you know, Any sort of economic gain, if you want to get later into Christianity, these people writing it to develop these religions to create this sort of a society.
Plato's idea of this noble society, he wanted to create this sort of Santa Claus character to make people happy. you know, to build it around fear. So people would obey and he wanted to get rid of Homer and in like the, just the schools and stuff. And they had just different motivations for things.
And then if you extrapolate that to where we are now, like if you want to, like an example would be something we've been talking to talked about recently on recent podcasts is like, uh, Plato's Atlantis and Plato that like up until, um, a couple like a couple decades ago. there was just this gap where no one would talk about Atlantis.
And some guy wrote a book about it on how it was this crazy lost city that somehow was lost during the flood and went underwater. But like, if you go and talk to Plato about it, or if you look at any of Plato's other work, Plato's only wrote about like philosophical allegories, ideas like his cave. Like we aren't out looking for Plato's cave. So why would we be looking for Alexandria?
Well, there's people like now we write books, like people often write books just to, to build a name for themselves, to make money on things. There's so many motivations for developing these works even today. So to look at it, to look at history through the same lens we look at now is just, it's kind of crazy.
Yeah, and it's tough too. Like even with the Dead Sea Scrolls, I had a gentleman on here who's an expert on deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls. And he was explaining to me how...
when they were doing all that work on the dead sea scrolls they came across a lot of forgeries where people were basically trying to sell fakes at dead sea scrolls on the antiquities market and they would put them under microscopes and they would see the degradation of the actual um what is the word they use for the animal skins that they were written on the parchment parchment yeah so so the parchments they were they would see like degradations or like
like depressions where part of it was torn away and they would see the ink going over that. So they knew that this was like, obviously not an original. This was a forgery.
Which is, which is crazy. And that's another landmine you got to try to avoid with this stuff.
And people try to do that for multiple different reasons, to help push a narrative or just to make money.
I know this is a little bit outside of your expertise, but what language do you think Jesus spoke? Do you think he was a real historical figure?
Yeah, and I also – I get the impression that a lot of these cults and these ancient religions like Yahwism, they – And correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like that they viewed them much differently than we view religions today.
They viewed them as mythological traditions that didn't necessarily have to be objective facts, but they were more of just traditional myths that they subscribed to because...
for whatever reason um maybe it maybe it helped them get through life maybe it was just an important tradition to them but yeah today it's more of a hard black and white thing absolutely you're making a very good point the um in antiquity um things were much more fluid much much more fluid much more interesting as well
Anyway, so... And these writings that you were finding were in what language? Aramaic. They're in Aramaic. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. When you first started looking in Elephantine, you were finding these same things that were looking like fragments of vases and things with written Aramaic language on it. Right.
Dr. Gad Barnea, thanks for coming. Pleasure to be here. Yeah, I just got done listening to your podcast with Neil, Gnostic Informant. It was fascinating stuff. And I'm excited to chat with you about this stuff today. Can you just explain what your background is?
Also, are there any other myths that are so as ubiquitous spread across so many different cultures and so many different parts of the world, like the flood myth? Like the flood of Noah, like the Sumerian flood, and you find it there, you find it in Egypt, you find it in Central and South America.
It seems like this, it seems crazy that it's known from all these different cultures, from all these different parts of time. And it's and there's been there's like literally there I think there's geological evidence that proves that there was like some sort of catastrophe around the time that I think it was talked about which was like 1200 BC or something along those lines.
Well, there's this theory called the Younger Dryas Hypothesis, where they imagine that there was a couple of different ideas. But one of the prevailing theories is that there was like a cosmic comet impact that hit the North American ice sheet and some other parts of the world as well.
that melted the ice cap, ended the Pleistocene and then created like an enormous flood that wiped out a huge amount of humans and mammals.
Yeah, same thing with pyramids.
Indonesia.
Uh, like they were trained, they're getting the translations wrong.
and the same again with uh with the pyramid it doesn't have to be necessarily we don't have to go the the route of aliens in order to explain it it's a it it is great the pyramid the especially the pyramid the great pyramid is such an astonishing feat it is it is it is and the uh thousand i mean five i think there's like i don't know if there's thousand ton stones but i think there's five at least 500
ton granite blocks that are at the top of that pyramid that are from Aswan, which is a long ways away.
How in the world? They were very good. And then these things, I'm sure, I don't know if you're familiar with these vases that they found in the Bent Pyramid, but these vases, the guy you're going to see, Matt Bell, he actually purchased a bunch of these on the Antiquities Market, and they're made out of the hardest granite, I think red granite, one of the hardest granites on Earth.
And he had them measured in light scanners. And they are perfectly symmetrical within the deviation of a human hair from top to bottom. Perfect set to symmetry. And to create that out of granite today, we would need a CNC machine. Like we'd have to create this on a computer. The fact that they did that 2700 BC is like – it doesn't compute. You know, like almost –
And I don't think that. Yeah, I think that I think that the description I think I think so. Obviously, they had to have been to create this stuff. I just don't think like the conventional theory of how they did it with like copper chisels and pounding stones or like a. something like that in the middle of it to make something as perfect, precise as that.
That's like a piece that'll go in a jet engine.
underneath it, I've seen, I've never been there, but I've seen photos and videos. There's like, it looks like ice cream scoops taken out of the, out of the granite. The holes. Yeah. Underneath, like when they're, they're underneath it, like digging it out. That's right.
It's like, it looks like, see, I don't know if you can pull a photo of it, but it literally looks like ice cream scoops out of the rock. And that, that's in a lot of the places too, even in, um, Even in, what is the, where are all those, oh, the serapium. Like the serap, yeah. In the serapium, there's those granite boxes with the scoop marks out of them. It's like, what?
It's almost like they had some sort of like chemical that we don't, we just don't have any evidence for that was softening it or something.
Oh, really?
They were definitely on a different trajectory than we're on right now.
There's texts that explain that?
Do you know what they say?
Yeah, we're just talking.
There's a gentleman I had on the show a while back named Christopher Dunn, who spent his whole life studying these pyramids. And he was actually an engineer at first. He was an aerospace engineer. And he discovered the pyramids, I think it was like in the early 80s, maybe even 70s, I think it was. And then he started going, he went to study them and like look at them and measure everything.
And he even like Like rented out the whole pyramid by himself many times where he could do his own studies and stuff. And he came up with the hypothesis that it was like an ancient power plant. And he's talking – and he like through his early years studying the 70s and 80s and 90s, he obviously got a lot of pushback from Egyptologists, Zahi Huas. And now he's published a second book on it.
And he's explaining to me how there is a whole new generation of Egyptologists that are coming up, young people who are questioning the fact, the idea that these things were originally tombs. And they're looking into it more and trying and pushing back on this original idea. And it seems like the idea is evolving with young people coming up in Egypt now. So it's interesting.
In his book, it's interesting. He looked at the Serapium and he measured the blocks and how much they weighed and everything. And he went to a company, the biggest granite company that cuts granite in the United States. And he basically asked them what it would take to replicate one of those boxes in the Serapium. And the guy was like, we would never do that, first of all, because it's one piece.
If we were going to do something like that, we would take all the sides and bolt them together. But even just to get a piece of granite like that out of the ground and transport it, he's like, you're talking like $500,000 with today's technology. Right. Which is insane.
Right, exactly.
Weren't there temples that were built specifically for people in the afterlife that weren't like temples people would dwell in? They were just like they existed for when somebody went to the afterlife, like the Osirion and I think Edfu maybe. Yeah.
I thought there was temples that they built that were actually not inhabited. They were like had doors that went nowhere.
It's fun to talk about. It is fun.
There wasn't a desert back then.
Definitely. Well, thank you, man. I really appreciate you coming and doing this. Thank you. Where can folks that are listening or watching find more of your work or get in touch with you?
That's amazing, man. All right, Steve, we got a couple of Patreon questions before we wrap up. These are our beautiful paid subscribers on Patreon. Had a couple of questions for you. All right. Kyle says, hello, professor. Do you have any thoughts on Homer, the Iliad and where its inspiration came from? A lot of these questions may not be relevant or whatever.
We don't spend a lot of time on all of them. We can do like one minute.
Okay. Sean says, my question is, how much of a leap is it to make the claim that religion came from early drugs and then was adapted by the Catholic Church to control the masses? Yeah.
Even medicines, I'm sure. Yeah.
They probably didn't view drugs the same way we do. Yeah. They definitely didn't.
So, is Elephantine the first place that the idea of Yahwism developed? Where did Yahwism come from?
Absolutely. Yeah. Um, Jacob, hello, Dr. Barnett and the podcast with Neil from Gnostic Informant. I heard you say that the Jews from what is considered the first temple period worshiped a God named IAO. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And you equate this God with Yahweh. Is it possible that the God IAO predates the Jews and is worshiped in Greek culture since the name itself is the root for whatever that is.
Thanks, Jacob. I got the best fans.
Okay. Blake Blake, what is the Tree of Life and how is it misinterpreted?
Cormac, how do digital tools reshape our understanding of ancient texts? And what is the most compelling evidence of Zoroastrian influence in Jewish traditions?
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