Episode 134: Claire Kirwin discusses value realism

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What is the “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” phrase and why does it matter?

Unknown 0:13

Mm-hmm. Nothing I'm not.

Matt Teichman 0:19

Hello and welcome to Elucidations, an unexpected philosophy podcast. I met Tykeman. I'm Josh Kaufman. And with us today is Claire Kerwin, postdoctoral preceptor in the Master of Arts program in the humanities at the University of Chicago, and she's here to discuss value realism. Claire Kerwin, welcome.

Claire Kirwin 0:39

Thank you for having me. I am really excited to be here.

Matt Teichman 0:43

So one expression that often makes its way into our conversations that you've expressed an interest in is this beauty is in the eye of the beholder thing. So maybe we could begin by talking about what is the idea there? What's the like what does beauty is in the eye of the beholder mean?

Claire Kirwin 0:59

Right, so um it seems to me that at least one of the things we're expressing in using this phrase is the idea that beauty is not in the thing that is described as beautiful. Instead it is in the eye of the beholder. So when someone says um that they find a particular painting or a particular person beautiful. The idea that's being expressed in the phrase beauty is in the eye of the beholder is that the beauty is not in that thing. It's not a property of the painting. Um, it's not the person themselves that is in fact beautiful, but rather it's something going on in the person finding them beautiful. Um

Matt Teichman 1:43

And it's funny, right, 'cause it sounds like it's about the painting. I said this painting is beautiful. I didn't say anything about Matt, but it's secretly about Matt somehow, even though I talked about the painting.

Claire Kirwin 1:52

Right. And so I take it that the phrase is meant to sort of draw your attention to something that you might not have noticed, which is that really things are not beautiful. And in the area of philosophy that I'm working in This idea has been extended beyond beauty. Uh to all kinds of value, and so there's this idea that not just beauty, but all kinds of goodness, including even moral goodness, are also not in fact in things themselves, but are just in the eye of the beholder.

Matt Teichman 2:24

So this term realism is maybe something we should explain. It's a little bit of a philosophical jargon and uh I so I guess it means something different from like, oh that person's a realist, like they're not naive. Uh so what what is realism exactly?

Claire Kirwin 2:34

Right. So in um the context of the work that I'm doing. I am a realist because I in fact do not think that beauty or goodness is merely in the eye of the beholder at all. In fact, I think that beauty and goodness really are in the things themselves. And so my opponent, the anti realist, is very committed to this idea that not just beauty, but in fact all kinds of goodness are actually just uh something that is based somehow in the individual person's own maybe likes or dislikes or the things that they think are good or bad rather than in the objects themselves.

Josh Kaufman 3:13

And and then I I'm curious because obviously one way to read realism is beauty and properties like beauty are just simply in the objects and have nothing to do with the perceiver or the beholder. So is your notion of realism like that or or does it allow that there's some sort of complicated interaction between the beholder and what they're beholding?

Claire Kirwin 3:33

Right. So part of what I want to be able to make sense of in my view. is the idea that I think is one of the things motivating this beauty is in the eye of the beholder claim, and that's the idea that different people find different things beautiful, right? And indeed different people find different things good.

How does Claire Kirwin define value realism and what does it claim about goodness?

Claire Kirwin 3:52

And even moving out of the realm of such noble things as goodness and beauty, people find different kinds of food tasty. And so I think that the fact of that difference has been what has motivated a lot of anti realists to want to say, well look it can't be um the goodness or the beauty or the tastiness can't be in the objects themselves. It has to come somehow from the person who's doing the perceiving. Um, and my thought is that I want to be able to try to make sense of the fact of that difference between people while still saying that the beauty or the goodness is in the object itself.

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Chapters

3 chapters

1 What is the “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” phrase and why does it matter? 0:13–3:52 2 How does Claire Kirwin define value realism and what does it claim about goodness? 3:52–12:30 3 Why does Kirwin think expertise can reveal objective value in ice‑cream flavors? 12:30–40:26

Speakers

1 identified

Matt Teichman 6 min

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Recorded29 May 2021

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Show notes

This month, Josh Kaufman and I talk to Claire Kirwin about whether things are objectively good or bad, or whether it’s all in the eye of the beholder. Professor Kirwin is a fan of peanut butter cup ice cream, and Josh and I are fans of mint chocolate chip. Is there an objective fact of the matter about whether either is good, or whether one is better than the other? Or are we all just expressing our preferences, i.e. doing nothing more than providing information about ourselves? Can goodness be ‘in’ ice cream, or is it just ‘in’ the person eating it? If we think peanut butter cup ice cream can be objectively good, is that somehow disrespectful to people who prefer something else? Does everyone have a moral right to have their ice cream preferences respected by others? The example may be somewhat frivolous, but it ties into lots of similar questions that many of us think of as more weighty, like whether classical music can be objectively great/terrible, or whether a given behavior can be morally objectively great/terrible.Value realism is a catch-all expression for the belief that all of these things are objectively in the objects themselves. Peanut butter cup ice cream deliciousness is in the ice cream itself, not in the person experiencing it, and classical music greatness is in the music itself, not in the audience member listening to it at Carnegie Hall. Claire Kirwin espouses value realism across all of these cases, but we focus on ice cream in this episode because, uh, hopefully it’s a little less of a hot button thing than some other topics. We’d like to be able to talk about it without raising an undue amount of ire.Kirwin’s two main ideas are as follows. First, you might wonder how the heck there could even be some sort of objective deliciousness in ice cream itself. Doesn’t everyone disagree about that? Her general line of response is that there can be experts in the flavor of ice cream, and if there can be experts in the flavor of ice cream, then there must be something about ice cream that they’re especially good at picking up. Maybe you’re a master chef, or maybe you’re a food critic, or maybe you’ve just eaten more ice cream than most people. Whatever. There are lots of different ways of being an expert. The point is that if you understand a lot about ice cream it can sensitize you to little details in its flavor that other people haven’t been trained to notice.Her follow-up idea is quite interesting. She argues that when one person prefers mint chocolate chip ice cream and another prefers peanut butter cup ice cream, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the two people disagree. It could very well be that peanut butter cup ice cream is objectively good, and mint chocolate chip ice cream is also objectively good. It’s just that one person only has the expertise required to discern the tastiness of the one flavor, and the other person only has the expertise required to discern the tastiness of the other flavor. So saying that some flavor you have expertise in is objectively good is actually potentially remaining neutral about other flavors—at least the ones you feel like you don’t have a good grip on.Join the three of us as we entertain a peaceful solution to the ice cream wars!Matt Teichman Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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