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Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud

Stephen Jones

03 Jun 2026

Transcription

Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.

Chapter 1: How did Stephen Jones start his journey in fashion?

8.587 - 18.982 Bella Freud

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Stephen Jones.

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19.002 - 20.525 Stephen Jones

Hello, Bella, my darling. How are you?

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20.565 - 38.514 Bella Freud

I'm very happy to see you here and our long friendship being cemented by me in the chair and you on the couch. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

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39.716 - 64.003 Stephen Jones

It's quite a long story. Well, first of all, I thought, well, what unites us? Because fashion is really about communication. And I thought, well, Vivian unites us. And I thought, well, if I'm going to be lying flat on my back and I'm wearing a hat, I have to have something which is a little bit soft. I can't have something with a brim.

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64.825 - 95.884 Stephen Jones

So I thought, well, maybe the Vivian tweed crown or the Vivian crown could be suitable. So that's what I'm wearing today. And it's not the tweed version, but one which is made from woolens and lame and different fabrics. And then I'm wearing an MA1 jacket, which was given to me by Khaled Sotsani from Di Cicorso Como a few years ago.

96.303 - 128.797 Stephen Jones

And then underneath, I'm wearing a T-shirt from Vivienne, which I bought, I think, in about 1977, 1978. It's a seditionary as well. And then my original bondage trousers, which amazingly enough, I can still get into. Gosh. And... Socks from Pantherella, which were a special edition by Sanderson that I thought looked quite wonderfully Baroque.

129.317 - 155.765 Stephen Jones

But when I put them on, my husband, Craig, said to me it looked like his mother's sofa, which wasn't exactly the effect that I wanted to have. And a pair of shoes from a company called Milk Boy in Japan, which was... Milk was a... Actually, a company which was started between Hitomi Akawa and Reikawa Kubo before she started Comme des Garcons.

155.785 - 182.444 Stephen Jones

And it was a joint company financed by Hitomi's mother, but then they went their separate ways. And the shoes from Milk Boy, I mean, it's like a young skater's label for boys. And for girls, she really invented the kawaii, very, very sweet Japanese look, which was, you know, in a way traditional, but she did the modern version of it. So that's what I'm wearing.

183.606 - 208.327 Bella Freud

Oh, it's so good. Especially to see the crown because I remember though some of the fabrics because when Vivian was thinking about it, when I was working for her and she was working on the the tweed collection, she sent me off to Berwick Street Market to bring back jewel-like velvets to be in the crown.

Chapter 2: What role did punk culture play in Stephen's design philosophy?

225.785 - 228.13 Stephen Jones

Oh, Borafix is very much still there.

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228.15 - 228.351 Bella Freud

Is it?

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228.692 - 243.625 Stephen Jones

It's smaller than it used to be, but absolutely. It's there selling lots of different sorts of fabrics, but still supplying theatres and brides and Central Saint Martin students.

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243.638 - 260.844 Bella Freud

Well, it was such a great shop and they had hundreds of different things, but they seemed to specialize in this, you know, these crazy things that you wouldn't ever be seen dead in, but actually were unbelievably useful and, you know.

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261.185 - 282.351 Stephen Jones

They used to do a fabulous range of polka dot nylon and black polka dots. Oh, yeah. on fluorescent pink, fluorescent green, fluorescent blue, everything. It was extraordinary. And you know that they were going to be at the end of the pier next season in some sort of very, very British play or something.

282.591 - 283.753 Bella Freud

Camperama.

284.138 - 314.894 Stephen Jones

But it was through Vivian that, because I have a memory, which we have spoken about it, but I'm not quite sure if you do remember, but you phoned me up one day and said that Vivian was making some caps. And did I know where you could get the peaks from? And I recommended a company up north called Bracia, who still exists. And that, I think, was the first time we spoke to each other.

315.015 - 331.937 Bella Freud

Yeah. Because it was when Vivian was set up in Greenland Street in Camden. And Stephen Linard, I think, was downstairs. And Trevor, who made the shoes for Vivian, the rocking horse shoes.

332.298 - 332.438

Mm-hmm.

Chapter 3: What makes a hat a powerful fashion statement?

406.283 - 413.995 Stephen Jones

And it is extraordinary how, even though it was a long time ago, it just seems so relevant. Yeah.

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494.755 - 517.101 Bella Freud

And you're the most successful milliner in the world. And you've worked with the biggest designers in existence, including five different creative directors at Dior, from John Galliano to Jonathan Anderson. And you've been awarded an OBE. And you said your family hated the idea of you going into hat making. Why was that?

518.38 - 532.633 Stephen Jones

Well, I'm sure, well, either they wanted me to go into the family company, which was a haulage business in Liverpool, which was not exactly me. But, I mean, I look back and it sounds very arrogant of me to say so. I was very lucky to be given that opportunity.

533.293 - 561.364 Stephen Jones

But I'm sure my father wanted me to become an accountant or something more straight-laced, as opposed to going to art school like my elder sister who had flunked out after the first year. So I just didn't think they thought it was a proper job. And funny enough, I think they felt that way all their lives.

562.829 - 582.648 Stephen Jones

Apart from the fact that at the very end of my father's life, he hadn't said anything for a long time. I decided to sort of have a conversation with him, but I had to take up both parts, both vocal parts. And I said, you know, I'm sorry, I didn't become an accountant or a doctor or whatever.

Chapter 4: How has Stephen collaborated with iconic designers?

583.049 - 607.95 Stephen Jones

I haven't got 2.5 children. And suddenly, he hadn't spoken for ages, said in a very, very quiet voice, said, well, you had to do the thing which was right for you. And he died very shortly afterwards. But for so many years, thinking that he was, you know, non-supportive. That's the polite version, by the way.

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610.619 - 622.888 Stephen Jones

I realized he was really cool about it. Yeah. And it's amazing that I could get that sort of happiness and contentment, which has followed me since.

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623.569 - 640.454 Bella Freud

How wonderful that's such a... How incredible to have that moment also that you made the effort to have some kind of exchange even though you were expecting him literally not to be able to speak.

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640.835 - 645.302 Stephen Jones

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't know. It just felt like it's now or never.

645.583 - 645.923 Bella Freud

Yeah.

646.324 - 648.668 Stephen Jones

And sort of get on with it.

649.109 - 658.677 Bella Freud

Mm-hmm. Because your mother took you to art galleries, and I wondered what the first painting you were drawn to with a good hat in it.

659.077 - 688.548 Stephen Jones

I mean, I was so young. I don't know. It's probably actually not the art gallery, but the Laughing Cavalier on top of a biscuit tin or something like that. I can't remember. But I think if you're a child and you're going to an art gallery, it's not only the paintings that you're looking at. It's the whole experience. Mm-hmm. I mean, just marble columns, the grandeur of it, gilt frames.

Chapter 5: What challenges has Stephen faced in the competitive fashion industry?

810.284 - 834.037 Stephen Jones

if you wear a hat, there is no escape somehow. It's so true. Even though the hat can be an escape. I remember real hat wear is both Anna Piaggi and Isabella Blow talking to me about the power of a hat and how they could relax underneath it. And the hat did the communication for them.

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834.197 - 835.099 Bella Freud

Right, yeah.

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835.119 - 841.168 Stephen Jones

So it wasn't only a defense. It was this extraordinary magical tool.

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842.65 - 869.218 Bella Freud

It's so interesting, the thing of self-consciousness, how contraintuitive it can be. And that thing of almost going into the eye of the storm is where you feel safe and because something else is doing the work, getting the attention for you. But you don't, just because you're shy doesn't mean you want to be anonymous. No.

869.398 - 869.538 Stephen Jones

Yeah.

870.56 - 871.02 Bella Freud

Yeah.

871.237 - 885.016 Stephen Jones

And you have to do what you have to do. You have to live your life. And a hat is this shield and maybe a sword as well.

886.438 - 888.721 Bella Freud

Yeah. Oh, that's so good.

Chapter 6: What is the significance of hat etiquette in fashion?

957.78 - 988.439 Stephen Jones

But yes, when I was growing up, I loved Thunderbirds and all those puppet shows. And I think if anybody would have asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, it was probably a puppet. I loved I don't know it was I think the reality of life is even though in the Northwest on the rural peninsula, looking out at the storms coming in from the sea was one thing.

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988.459 - 1006.662 Stephen Jones

And I guess it wasn't too bad, but the fantasy world of television and a puppet show was wonderful. But I mean, I love television. It was this magical box where all this stuff came from. And it just seemed to be so much more interesting than,

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1008.397 - 1036.398 Stephen Jones

church or anything my parents said because do you remember a piece of clothing that you became obsessed with as a child i don't know as a child i'm not really sure i mean because i wore school uniforms when I was at prep school and school uniform when I was at boarding school. I suppose I wasn't obsessed with our school boat or anything like that.

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1037.519 - 1057.641 Stephen Jones

I was obsessed with, I guess, I mean, music became my obsession. And I remember buying the Roxy Music albums in 1972 when they came out. And I was completely disowned by all my friends who thought it was girls' music.

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1059.427 - 1060.028 Unknown

Oh, yeah.

1061.29 - 1093.294 Stephen Jones

Then it was very uncool because I, I mean, a few of my friends sort of then took on board David Bowie and Rocks Music, but a boys' boarding school in Liverpool did not really entertain eyeliner. And they were all into, I don't know, heavy rock. And Amanda Lear, They weren't interested in that. I don't know, thought it was a threat or thought it was a joke or something.

1094.396 - 1126.448 Stephen Jones

So not that I wanted to, or I thought possibly I could dress like Brian Ferry or Auntie Mackay, but... I was obsessed by their clothes. And I remember buying a pair of loons. For those of you who are under 200 years old, a pair of loons. Loons were very flared trousers. And the best place to buy them was out of the back of either Melody Maker or New Musical Express.

1126.468 - 1126.869 Unknown

Oh, yes, yeah.

1127.09 - 1146.046 Stephen Jones

And there were little boxes, and you could order your waist size, which in those days was probably about 26 inches or something ridiculous. And I remember buying my pair of loons, and I bought with my pocket money, and they were aubergine. Oh, my gosh. And I was so in love with them, I can't tell you.

Chapter 7: How does fashion serve as a form of protest?

1191.069 - 1192.431 Bella Freud

Oh, they were so good.

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1192.771 - 1194.374 Stephen Jones

It did dress a generation.

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1195.616 - 1196.176 Bella Freud

Totally.

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1196.497 - 1219.044 Stephen Jones

Because I think when you went to clothing shops then, there was very much gents outfitters, or there was a department store, or there was especially a shop where you got school uniform from. And I guess there was the very beginnings of places like Miss Selfridge, Or Topshop.

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1219.264 - 1220.607 Bella Freud

Chelsea Girl or stuff.

1220.627 - 1221.348 Stephen Jones

Chelsea Girl, yeah.

1221.488 - 1221.749 Bella Freud

Yeah.

1222.43 - 1239.402 Stephen Jones

But for men's clothes, there really wasn't anywhere. Anyway, I think music was almost more important than fashion, but the two were really closely associated. Who were you listening to when you were 15?

1239.837 - 1273.74 Bella Freud

um I discovered Bob Marley that was a huge thing for me and the words I felt that they described my stance in life you know get up stand up I just thought yes I remember carving that into my desk at school and um But then my mother had good records. She had Nina Simone and Leonard Cohen. But my first own music was really David Bowie, The Stones, and then Bob Marley.

Chapter 8: What lasting impact has Stephen Jones had on the fashion world?

1423.092 - 1442.313 Unknown

He peddled polos, hats, candles, provided a home for deplatformed conservative stars like Matt Walsh and minted stars like Candace Owens. Let's put a pin in that. The Daily Wire even has kids programming a judgmental puppet named Zoodles. Zoodles. Zoodles. who shares Shapiro's load-bearing eyebrows. This year, though, the empire showed signs of collapse.

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1442.333 - 1462.796 Unknown

The Daily Wire's YouTube videos are down from millions of views to the low five figures. Web traffic is plummeting. And recently, Shapiro laid off 13% of his employees. Asked by the Washington Post what had happened, Shapiro accused other conservatives of click-whoring by embracing radical Islam, theorizing about the evils of Winston Churchill, and mocking the widow of Charlie Kirk.

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1462.836 - 1469.742 Unknown

The kid still got it. On Today Explained, the fall of Ben Shapiro. Today Explained drops every weekday afternoon.

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1470.804 - 1488.375 Bella Freud

Because you described enrolling into St. Martin's to study women's wear and realizing you had no idea how you wanted a woman to dress. And you found your fashion compass in the millinery department. What is the difference between a dress designer and a hat designer?

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1490.245 - 1498.278 Stephen Jones

Well, I was doing fashion at St. Martin's. St. Martin's, by the way, not Central St. Martin's, as you rightly said.

1498.298 - 1498.698 Unknown

Absolutely.

1500.541 - 1530.933 Stephen Jones

So when I first left college, I was designing women's wear as well as hats. But what's the difference between the two things? I don't know. Not much in a way. Because when I think of hats, I always think of the body, right? And I think of the backbone first, and then the head, and then I put a hat on it. I never really think of the hat in isolation. I always think it's part of being something.

1532.155 - 1559.451 Stephen Jones

And often people do see hats as a separate thing, but I always like them as being just a continuation. I mean, I remember once asking John Caliano, why are you so interested in hats? Why do you like hats? And he said, oh, that's funny coming from you. And he said, well, why would a dress designer stop being interested in the body at the neck?

1560.413 - 1593.164 Stephen Jones

Like at the hem of the clothes, at your wrist, why would your interest stop there? So... In the same way as to your thought, it was just a continuation of the silhouette, maybe a punctuation, but really a continuation of the silhouette. You know, I think about it all in one. Having said that, I quite like hats to be, my hats, to be a conversation piece.

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