417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!

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Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy 1h 41m 4 speakers transcribed

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Dr. David Burns 0:07

Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy. He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety. Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.

Dr. Rhonda Barofsky 0:55

Hello, Rhonda.

Dr. David Burns 0:58

Hello, David, and welcome to all of our listeners around the country and throughout the world and the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good podcast, and it's episode 417. We have two special guests, Matt May, who's a frequent visitor to our podcast. Hi, Matt.

Dr. Matt May 1:15

Hey, Rhonda. Hi, Matt.

Dr. David Burns 1:15

And we have a repeat guest, Manuel Sierra, who is a child and adolescent psychiatrist currently living in Idaho. He did his fellowship at Massachusetts General Hospital, and he did his residency with Matt at Stanford. And one special thing about Manuel that many people don't know is that he grew up with David and Tom. Together they wrestled bears and mountain lions, which I'm sure we'll hear more about in the podcast. Yeah, we actually, what we didn't mention was that we spent a couple of years in Hong Kong, too. You know, when we were like six. And we had to go to the zoo there to wrestle animals.

Dr. Manuel Sierra 1:59

Wow. It was easier back then. There wasn't as many protective gates and stuff in the Sonora Desert. But those were their formative years. That's where we learned how to both bully and protect against bullying.

Dr. David Burns 2:17

Wow, that's awesome. I love that. And you just said the name of our podcast, the topic of our podcast today is on bullying. It's on brand, yeah. It's not a funny topic, a very serious and horrible topic, but one that I think is really needed. We're lucky to have you, Manuel, and Matt, to give us a little of the inside scoop on the best way to think about bullying and to change the way you think if you're being bullied, which is probably half of what we'll talk about. And then the other half would be... what to say, how to use the five secrets of effective communication or whatever verbal strategies to respond to the bully. So you've got your inner dialogue, which is the way you're thinking about yourself, the messages you're giving yourself if you're being bullied, and then the outer dialogue is what you're going to say to the other person.

Dr. David Burns 3:28

And Matt and Manuel have some fantastic answers to those two questions. Well, could you just start off by explaining what you mean by bullying?

Dr. Manuel Sierra 3:42

Sure. Well, what I would also just say real quickly is that – so bullying obviously is extremely serious. They talk about one out of four to up to 50 percent of people experience bullying of some kind. And then there's extremely severe where we have to really – always I think we need to step in and we'll go through techniques and everything. But there's higher suicide risks for kids who are being severely bullied. There's physical aggression. We're going to talk about when to go to an adult. Well, you should always go to an adult. We're going to talk about how parents can also try to get – You know, their kids find out if they're being bullied, some of the warning signs and trying to get them professional help.

Dr. Manuel Sierra 4:29

And, you know, we've got to work in the systems with the teachers, the schools. And, you know, we can go from the inner self, the family. The neighborhoods, the school systems. But anyway, we just want to make sure we know that people are being severely bullied. We really do need to step in and can make a difference. What I think we'll talk a lot about, too, is, you know, what about the average kind of person, you know, when you're getting made fun of? People are picking on you for the way you look, for dressing differently. A lot of times they're pretty darn good at picking out our insecurities and just riding on those until we feel more guilt, embarrassment, shame. So anyway—

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Dr. David Burns 41 min Dr. Manuel Sierra 41 min Dr. Matt May 13 min Dr. Rhonda Barofsky

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Topics in this episode

Stephen King 1 Pope 1 David Letterman 1 Massachusetts General Hospital 1 Red 1 Stanford University School of Medicine 2 David Burns 8 Feeling Great 1 Feeling Good 1 Rhonda Barofsky 4 Matt May 4 Feeling Good Podcast 1

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Recorded07 Oct 2024

Publisherpod.link ↗

CollectionAudioscrape Public Library

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Show notes

Podcast 417 Bullying Featuring Manuel Sierra, MD (pictured above) Today, we welcome an old friend, Manuel Sierra, MD, who practices pediatric psychiatry in Idaho, and Dr. Matt May, a familiar and beloved colleague, to discuss bullying. Below you’ll find a great list of questions Dr. Matt May submitted just prior to today’s podcast, along with some links you may wish to explore for more information. We addressed some of the questions, but certainly not all, during the podcast! Manuel described bullying, and said the ¼ of children and adults have experienced bullying. The consequences can be severe, including suicidal urges or completed suicides, along with shame and a severe loss of self-esteem, and more. He pointed out that bullies are good at zeroing in on aspects of ourselves that we feel insecure about, including how we look, our ethnicity, our aptitudes, and more. He provided links to resources on bullying. The bully picks on someone who is weak, so there is a power imbalance, and does the bullying to gain popularity and power, at the expense of the victim. David and Manuel emphasized that the bullying per se cannot cause the depression, shame, and so forth, but rather the victim must buy into the bully’s mean-spirited statements, like “you’re weak,” or “you have an ugly zit on your nose,” “your mother is a dirty whore,” and more. Then, the inner dialogue of the victim often goes like this: I must be a terrible and horrible person to get bullied like this. I’m worthless. All the kids are looking down on me. Everybody hates me! Everyone is laughing at me. I’m just a loser. And that, of course, is the voice of the “inner bully” who does all the emotional damage. Manuel and David both emphasized that the goal of treatment is to help the victim see that the “badness” is not with them, but rather with the kid (or adult) who’s doing the bullying. Because the victims nearly always feel ashamed, they will often suffer in silence, keeping the bullying a secret. David described what he calls the “abuse contract” that many, and perhaps most, humans buy into when being hurt or exploited. It’s really a contract between the abuser and the abused, and there are there parts to the agreement. I get to hurt you for my own pleasure. This might include sexual, physical, financial, or psychological torture or abuse. You, the victim are entirely to blame for this. You are the bad one. I am superior and totally innocent. You deserve what’s happening to you. We have to keep this a secret, even from ourselves. You cannot even hint that I am doing something wrong. If you try that, I will REALLY hurt you. David emphasized that the tendency to “accept” this type of horrible contract is not limited to children, but includes adults as well. He emphasized that sometimes the child who is being bullied will tell parents, who then tell the teacher or school officials, who will tell the bully to stop. This is rarely effective, and often makes the situation worse, since the bully tells the victim that they are a snitch and now they will REALLY get what they “deserve.” Matt described many types of bullying, including physical, psychological, and cyber bullying. Manuel described some of the signs to look for if you suspect a problem with your child, including: Not wanting to go to school. Saying things like “everyone thinks I’m terrible.” Changes in sleep, eating habits, and energy. Somatic symptoms such as stomach aches and headaches. Manuel emphasized that the goal is not to eliminate negative feelings entirely, but rather to reduce the time you spend feeling anxious, humiliated and upset after being bullied. He also emphasized that ongoing practice talking back to your own negative thoughts is an important key to change, in exactly the same way that athletes must commit to ongoing daily practice to boost their physical skills and stamina. Manuel emphasized the importance of empathy and support, as well as asking victims if they’d want some help combatting their automatic negative thoughts and feelings. He shared that he endured considerable bullying as a kid, and was bullied because he was poor, of Mexican heritage, short, wearing glasses (“four eyes”), and young, and sometimes called “a fag” and other hurtful things. He said that reattribution is one useful strategy, among many, for combatting automatic thoughts and negative feelings. Instead of automatically blaming yourself for the bullying, you can ask questions like this: “What is it in their life that makes them want to do things like this.?” And “They are trying to hurt and embarrass me. Why are they doing that.” The goal is to help the victim see that the “badness” and shame really reside within the bully, and not with them. The bully is trying to tear you down. Ask yourself why? The bully thinks that this is the best way for them to gain popularity, power, and importance. Toward the end of the podcast, I, David, again emphasized that the Outer Bully can hurt us physically, by hitting for example, but only the Inner Bully can make us suffer emotionally. And if you’ve used the Externalization of Voices to crush the inner bully, and you no longer feel intimidated or ashamed when some tries to bully you, it becomes infinitely easier to respond effectively to the Outer Bully, using the Five Secrets, including Disarming and Stroking, as well as humor. To demonstrate this, I invited the other guests to try to bully me as an old person (I’m about to turn 82), and urged them to say the cruelest things they could think of. This is called the Feared Fantasy Technique. I was surprised and pleased at how incredibly easy it was to get “the edge on them. “ I hope you enjoy that aspect of the podcast. We will likely approach this topic again, with a focus on cyber bullying, and will restrict our focus to children and teens. How to Help! Matt once worked with a child who encountered their own 'inner bully' in the form of negative thoughts that would occur when they were unable to assemble LEGO's. The child could express certain thoughts, but was too young to write, so Matt wrote these down: I'll never be able to do it It’s impossible I'm not good at anything There is something wrong with me Matt asked the child if they would like to learn a trick for how to feel better and the child agreed. Matt wrote down some new thoughts for the child to choose from to describe the situation that was upsetting to them. Multiple Choice Positive Thoughts: I really, really want to do this! It's ok if I can't do it, yet Some things take lots and lots of practice I may be able to do it later I can do lots of things really well already I can probably get better with practice People love me and like to help Nobody's good at everything all the time Everybody messes up sometimes It might help to take a break I can always choose to like myself The child said they really liked #11 and felt better right away and during future 'relapses'! Thanks, Matt Thanks for listening today. Below you’ll find the email Matt sent prior to the show. Manuel, Rhonda, Matt, and David Matt wrote: Just to stir up trouble and make you all sweat, I'm sending a few questions we might address: What is bullying? How are we defining this term? Is it Liberal Propaganda? How dare I say that? What's the difference between bullying and micro-aggressions / gaslighting? Am I crazy, if I think I'm being gaslighted? If I avoid bullying, in-person, including physical, emotional and verbal abuse...am I safe, on the Internet, at least? Is there such a thing as 'Safety'? Isn't that the thing we need, the most? Whose job is it, to make me feel safe? Why do some people think that safety doesn't exist? What is the significance of bullying? Does it matter or have any tangible effects on individuals or society? Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK390414/ What are some common misconceptions when it comes to bullying? Here are some that Matt has seen on DML's: It was all my fault / I deserved it / This happened because I am (insert label: bad/weak/defective, etc.) Bullying is normal, nothing can be done about it. Everyone gets bullied. It builds character. I should just get over it. I shouldn't *still* feel upset. That was a long time ago and I've done a lot of therapy. I can't speak up or talk about it, it's just too disturbing and upsetting. People would judge me and reject me, if they knew what happened to me All conflict is dangerous and must be avoided, at all costs I'm just a loser, a born victim, worthless in every way. This will always happen to me and people who believe #2 are correct I should be more accepting of bullies, they're people, too. Bullies shouldn't be bullies and should be hunted to the ends of the earth, and destroyed. What is the *cause* of bullying behaviors? Why would anyone choose to be cruel, manipulative and selfish? What is the 'Dark Triad'? Which feature of the 'Dark Triad' is most closely associated with bullying? Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying What can be done about bullying? How can TEAM therapy help someone who is being bullied? Can TEAM therapy help a bully? What can parents do, if their child is being bullied? Can TEAM help? What can parents do, if their child is bullying? Can TEAM help? What can society do? Other Questions: What is the “Internal Bully”? How does the “Internal Bully” relate to depression? What is the greatest predictor of bullying behavior and thinking? Who's to blame, anyway, here?

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