Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. There's a moment in the new movie Wicked for Good when Elphaba, the so-called Wicked Witch, stops defending herself to a world that has misunderstood her and simply exists on her own power.
Chapter 2: What parallels does Cynthia Erivo draw between her life and Elphaba's character?
My guest today, Cynthia Erivo, brings that moment to life with a depth that is also personal. In part two of Wicked, Erivo captures Elphaba's evolution from outcast to someone who claims her own story, a journey Erivo also explores in her new memoir, Simply More.
The book traces how she learned to shed other people's definitions of her as a woman, as a Black artist, and as someone who was sometimes told she was too much. Erivo first broke through on Broadway in The Color Purple, winning a Tony Award for her portrayal of Celie.
She went on to earn an Oscar nomination for her portrayal of Harriet Tubman, and later portrayed Aretha Franklin in Genius Aretha, for which she was nominated for several awards, including an Emmy. Areva was also a recording artist, blending gospel, soul, and cinematic pop. Last year's Wicked and the new film Wicked for Good are adapted from the Tony Award-winning Broadway musical.
The new film continues Elphaba and Glinda's story, exploring what happens after their fates diverge and the myth of the Wicked Witch takes hold. And Cynthia Erivo, welcome back to Fresh Air. Hello. Thank you very much. You know, there is something extraordinary about watching Wicked and then Wicked for Good and reading your memoir at the same time. There are so many parallels there. Yeah.
When did it click for you that your personal life and that connection to Elphaba were so close?
I think I had an inkling that there was a connection soon after I started doing the music, singing the music, learning the music. But I think it really actually clicked when I was making the film, when I was playing the character, that I realized, oh, this is a lot closer to home than I had imagined. But I didn't realize that there were so many sort of
Real parallels, the relationship with her father, the relationship to being in spaces that don't really include you, all of that sort of dawned on me as it was happening.
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Chapter 3: How did Cynthia Erivo's memoir 'Simply More' reflect her personal journey?
So the feelings you see in the movie are very real feelings because they're sort of immediate. Yeah.
Was there a particular moment during that time period where it hit you? You said, wait a minute, this is me.
We were shooting, and this is going to sound so strange because it's such a small moment, but we were shooting the scene when Nessa Rose is about to be sent off to school and their father asks Elphaba to take care of Nessa. And I remember he speaks to her quite harshly. And the feeling that I got in that moment sort of was a click moment for me.
It was that moment that I realized, oh, this relationship is a complicated one. And that's when I sort of thought, oh, I recognize that.
What's so interesting about that is that the story of Wicked had been living with you for years.
I mean, we're talking over a decade or so. The first time I discovered it was when I was 20 or 21. Yeah.
Director John Chu actually asked you during the audition, what does Elphaba mean to you? And you told him the story of Defying Gravity, which was a song that you had learned several years before. Yes. When you were in school. Yes. You write about this in your memoir, Simply More, and I want you to read exactly what you said to John. Can I have you read it?
This was the exact piece of music I escaped into when I was in drama school. If I was having a really bad day or was miserably aware of how odd I felt there, an outsider who couldn't connect with the others, I would hide out in a music room with a friend, Michael.
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Chapter 4: What was Cynthia Erivo's breakthrough role on Broadway?
We'd sing this together. We'd stay in that little room until the very last minute before we had to go back to class, belting our hearts out. This song gave me refuge, singing it during a very vulnerable time in my life. These songs made me feel safe.
That was also the first time that you shared out loud how alienating school was for you.
Very much so, yeah.
What was it about that moment that it came to you to actually be vulnerable and tell? And also, that was a show of the connection between you and Elphaba as well.
Yeah, I felt really safe in that room. I felt like John would understand it. And I also knew that... In order to really connect with this character, to really help people understand that I knew and understood who this character was, who this person was, that I had to be vulnerable, that I had to share the experience, that I... felt that this character had been through.
And I felt like this character needed the vulnerability that I can sometimes be afraid of sharing or being. I'm better at now. But in that moment, I just thought, if I'm not honest about what I feel or have felt or how this music has made me feel, then I think I'm leaving something on the table that is important to me.
That experience that you had at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, that was a very difficult time for you. Maybe one of the most difficult times in your entire career.
Yeah. Yeah, I just felt like people really didn't understand me. And at the same time, whilst not understanding, didn't really make very much room for me either. It was sort of once a judgment was made, that judgment stayed. I think I... I was lucky enough to have one or two people during that time who really looked out for me, who cared for me.
But it was a tough experience to be there because I really just didn't think I fit.
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Chapter 5: How did Cynthia Erivo prepare for her role in 'Wicked'?
And lots of strange, interesting microaggressions from people who now are not at the school. But it was an interesting, tough time.
What were they telling you about yourself or how did you think they perceived you?
I think they thought I was unfocused and troublesome. I think they thought I didn't care about my work. There was one person in particular who made a comment about my body. It was too muscular. I needed to stop going to the gym. And at that point, I just was like, well, I like the body I'm in. And so to have someone who was teaching, who was supposed to be mentoring me,
To say that was just, it was horrifying.
You were a young girl. You had grown up in South London. You had to work your way through school. And that was part of the issue was that you, unlike other students, had other jobs. You were working as a background singer.
In the bar, at a theatre. I was working in a shirt and tie shop as well over the weekend. And so I was like, I was working a lot. And that happened because when I first got there, I was given the opportunity to go and do backing vocals for a band that would have paid for my tuition in its entirety. And when I asked if I could take the time off, which was two weeks,
I was given an ultimatum either to stay and let the gig go or leave and take the gig. But I couldn't come back.
What an impossible position to be in.
And I didn't want to leave. So yeah, I stayed.
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Chapter 6: What unique character insights did Cynthia Erivo gain while filming 'Wicked'?
It's one of those moments that I've started to learn to forgive myself for because I felt so... Previously, I felt so mad at myself, so... I guess there's a part of me that's a little bit ashamed that I would sort of give up my voice in that way. But it's also why I'm vehemently protective of the way I use my voice. I do not say yes to everything at all. It takes a lot for me.
It has to mean something for me to sing and has to make sense. I will never give my voice to someone like that again because it felt like... someone removing a gift that was meant for me and giving it to someone else. And it just felt, in the moment, really awful. And I remember feeling really wrong. It felt wrong.
I want to play a clip from the latest installment of Wicked because we learned that the wonderful Wizard of Oz is a fraud. But in this film, you're standing up to Oz, who is oppressing the animals. And I want to play this clip to illustrate this. It's you as Elphaba, Ariana Grande as Glinda, and the wonderful Wizard of Oz played by Jeff Goldblum. And he's telling you why efforts are meaningless.
Let's listen.
Elphaba, uh, I've missed you. Can't we start again? Yes, please. Just say yes. No! Don't you think I wish I could? I would give anything to go back to a time when I... When I actually believed that you were wonderful. The wonderful Wizard of Oz. No one believed in you more than I did. But there's no going back. And we can't move forward not until everyone knows what I know.
And once they know the truth... They're not going to believe it. How can you say that? No, no, no. I'm just being straight with you. I could tell them that I've been lying to them until I'm, forgive me, blue in the face, but it wouldn't make any difference. They're never going to stop believing in me. You know why? Because they don't want to.
That's my guest today, Cynthia Erivo, and seen with Jeff Goldblum and Ariana Grande and Wicked for Good. You all shot this back to back, Wicked and Wicked for Good.
Not back to back, at the same time.
At the same time. Simultaneously, yeah. Did you have to hold anything back emotionally as you were moving through these two different storylines that one... kind of evolves from the other.
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Chapter 7: What role does vulnerability play in Cynthia Erivo's performances?
She stars as Elphaba in Wicked for Good, and she's written a new memoir called Simply More. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Hi, this is Molly C.V. Nusberg, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.
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You didn't grow up with your dad. You don't know much about your dad.
No. And I know him. I've met him. My mom gave us the space and the choice to grow a relationship. She gave him a choice to grow the relationship. But he never really took the opportunity.
Can I have you read a section from the book where you talk about him? It's actually a poem.
Yes. Fun facts about my father. I don't know how old he is. I don't know his birthday. I don't know his profession. I don't know his parents' names. I don't know where he lives. I don't have his phone number. Suffice it to say, I really don't know much about him at all. I was 16 when he left me alone in a London underground station after an argument about a transit pass.
When he told me he didn't want to be in our lives anymore, I stood there in shock. My head was empty. And then I walked away. The first step felt like running into a brick wall, pain. Then, agony. My emotions opened like floodgates. I cried so hard I could barely breathe, could barely see.
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