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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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This is a special edition of the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service. I'm Valerie Sanderson. The world is still adjusting to the US operation to remove Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro from power. What does it mean for the region? What does it mean for international sovereignty? And what does it say about President Trump's willingness to flex his muscles on the global stage?
The BBC has been taking questions from our audience about Venezuela and the global impact of the US mission. So let's hear from my colleague, Matthew Amaralewala. He's been speaking to our South America correspondent, Ione Wells, our diplomatic correspondent, Paul Adams in Washington, and the BBC's Sumit Samaskanda, who's on the border between Venezuela and Colombia.
Let's get straight to your questions and to Sumi. The first question here, a pretty obvious one. Why did this strike happen? Why did Donald Trump, the U.S., capture Venezuela's president?
Yeah, that's an important question, isn't it, Matthew? And we have a couple of answers to that question. Indeed, what we've heard from President Trump, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, is that they saw Nicolás Maduro as the head of a drug trafficking organization that was directly a threat to the United States.
So the United States, the Secretary of State, had said that they had designated two drug trafficking organizations, the Tren de Aragua, as well as the Cartel de los Soles, the Cartel of the Suns, as drug trafficking organizations. And because of that, they said that Nicolas Maduro, who they deemed as the head of one of those cartels, was trafficking drugs directly into the United States.
That was the official justification they gave for why there was a direct threat to the United States. As a result of that, we saw strikes on what the US has said were drug trafficking boats off the coast of Venezuela, in the Pacific, in the Caribbean as well. More than 30 strikes, more than 100 people killed. After that, we also saw President Trump change the narrative a bit.
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Chapter 2: What is the US operation to remove Nicolás Maduro about?
In the last few years, Venezuelans have made up a big part of the people who have been flowing across the U.S. southern border into the United States. President Trump has claimed that those are drug traffickers, but there is not proof that the vast majority of those who have entered are drug traffickers. Regardless, they want to stop that flow as well.
Sumi, we'll unpick a lot more of that, certainly oil and those other issues in a moment or two. But Ione, in terms of the strikes from Saturday, how many people were actually killed?
Well, it's really hard to get reliable data on this. The government hasn't published official death tolls so far. We know that at least 32 Cubans were killed, who we know to be members of Maduro's security personnel, because Cubans traditionally made up most of his security network. There is an anonymous network of doctors in Venezuela that tends to be fairly reliable.
They get data from various hospitals around the country. They said yesterday that they had recorded at least 70 people dead from these strikes. They had calculated 43 bodies that had been taken to a morgue as well. There have been reports, too, that some civilians have been impacted by the strikes, including one older woman reportedly killed and potentially more injured as well.
Paul, in terms of international law, what is the consensus, legal or illegal, this move?
I think it's fair to say, Matthew, that there is no consensus. This is a case of international law versus domestic law. In terms of international law, well, clearly the UN Charter says that it is illegal to use force against the territory of another country unless there has been the consent of the UN Security Council or some kind of direct threat. In terms of domestic law, the U.S.
federal agencies have congressional approval to conduct arrests against wanted suspects pretty much anywhere in the world. And so that would include going and nabbing Maduro from the heart of the Venezuelan capital. Now, there is a question about the use of force as the American troops forces went in.
Well, the argument there has been that in the conduct of such arrest operations, this is not an invasion. This is not regime change. This was an arrest operation that the federal forces involved have the. authority from Congress to defend themselves as appropriate. And since helicopters did come under fire, then force was used.
You know, opponents of that will argue that those helicopters wouldn't have come under fire at all had they not been flying directly into the Venezuelan capital. Then as far as the court in New York is concerned, I think it's worth noting that clearly Mr. Maduro will try to argue that as the head of state, He enjoys legal immunity.
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Chapter 3: Why did the US decide to capture Venezuela's president?
It would be potentially dangerous to attempt to do so. I think that's a really interesting question we've had from a viewer. What happens if Delcy Rodriguez doesn't do as Donald Trump wants? Well, he has said... that if she doesn't, in his words, do the right thing, code for doing what he wants, I think, that she could face the same fate as Maduro or even worse.
So I think even though the US is not actually in charge, it certainly is holding a degree of influence over the government there right now through these threats, which they have seen what could happen and what happened to Maduro.
Paul, just remind people, you touched on it before, but remind us what Maduro was actually charged with. And is there any chance that this case actually gets thrown out?
OK, well, let's look at the charges. I'm going to refer to my notes because I want to make sure we inform the viewers correctly. Essentially, three main areas, narco terrorism, cocaine trafficking and weapons offenses. Now, these were all part of an initial indictment that dates back a few years to the first Trump administration, but has been revised more recently, conspiring with U.S.
designated agents. Foreign terrorist organizations like the Tren de Aragua, you've already heard referenced, and also the FARC, Colombian rebels. The use of the Venezuelan military and intelligence resources to move large quantities of cocaine to the U.S., and the possession of illegal weapons to facilitate that movement.
Those are, in broad terms, the charges being brought against President Maduro and his wife. He could face life in prison if convicted on these charges, just as the former Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega did when he was taken out of Panama again by the U.S. military back in 1989. Donald Trump's been talking about him just in his remarks at the Kennedy Center just a short time ago.
He says that he's a violent guy, that he ran torture chambers in Caracas and has killed millions of people. Typically Trumpian exaggeration, perhaps. But clearly there is a view here that President Maduro is a very bad guy. I think as to whether or not the charges will stick. Most people recognize that this is a case that's going to go on for a very long time.
It probably will be still going on after Donald Trump leaves office. It's a complicated case. There are a lot of moving parts to it, and it has only just begun.
This is a special edition of the Global News Podcast. You're listening to our South America correspondent, Ione Wells, our diplomatic correspondent, Paul Adams in Washington, and the BBC's Sumi Somaskanda on the border between Venezuela and Colombia, answering some of your questions about the US operation in Venezuela.
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Chapter 4: What impact will the operation have on Venezuela's oil reserves?
But President Trump has said it's not about the minerals. It is about national security. As Paul just touched on, it's being seen as a territory that is important strategically and militarily. And President Trump has said Chinese and Russian ships are all around Greenland. And he sees it as important for the U.S. to own to be able to gain that access militarily as well.
Now, it is important to note as well that, you know, that NATO military alliance, of course, the U.S. knows it is the biggest provider to that military alliance. And President Trump, therefore, sees it as within the U.S. 's purview to own an important piece of being strategically ready. If you look at how the U.S. is now viewing the world in Donald Trump's second term,
As this being part of the U.S. 's sphere of influence, President Trump sees Greenland as necessary to be part of the U.S. in order for the U.S. to be secure, even if that means angering allies like Denmark.
Paul, let me go back to you and talk more about Monroe Doctrine, because Mike Clinch says with the situation in Venezuela, also in Ukraine and also in Gaza, is the concept of international law and the UN led world order now dead?
Well, that's a, you know, a fear that has been voiced really since Donald Trump came back to office. In terms of the Monroe Doctrine, you know, the revitalizing of a 1823, is it, 1823 doctrine originally passed by the or announced by the then U.S. President James Monroe. Essentially, what we're seeing now is an expanded version of that.
In fact, people talk about it as encompassing everything from the Aleutian Islands in the west to Greenland in the east and everything from the Arctic in the north to the Antarctic in the south. with Donald Trump saying anything that happens in that geographic space is a U.S. vital national interest.
Any attempt by an outside power, whether it be China or Iran or Russia, to exert influence or extract benefit from anything in that space, and Venezuelan oil would be a good example of that, then that is to be resisted by the United States, that countries there should essentially direct their policies towards the American national interest.
That's why we see quite a significant amount of political influence being wielded, whether it's to see changes of government in Central and South America or access to key resources like Venezuelan oil. All of this, Donald Trump is saying, is vital American strategic and security concerns and everyone else should keep their hands off it.
Yes, and that's why people certainly in Cuba, in Colombia, are watching very, very closely.
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Chapter 5: How many casualties were reported from the strikes in Venezuela?
But I think he's made it clear that he feels he can control them through these kinds of threats.
We've only got a couple of minutes left, so a final thought, because there are huge dangers here, potentially, aren't there, in Venezuela? There are plenty of militias, you have an army still in place, a new president, and all sorts of historic precedents where interventions from the US have gone horribly wrong.
Yeah. I mean, just think of Iraq and and Libya and Afghanistan. I think it is clear that the Trump administration, as it figured out what to do about Venezuela, thought we are not going to go down that path. This is not going to be about regime change, because if you're going to go down that route.
You're going to involve massive deployment of American military forces, huge diplomatic and economic efforts to put countries back on their proper footing. It hasn't worked in the past. There's no earthly reason to think that it would work again now. And so perhaps the sensible thing is to leave the. Deeply unpopular, but secure or relatively secure government structure in place.
And then instead of trying to remove it and put it something else in its place, you merely threaten it to do what you want it to do. And that's why essentially what Donald Trump is saying to the government in Venezuela is, you know, there are still arrest warrants out there. We could still come back in with further evidence. attacks from the air.
There are all sorts of ways in which the United States can continue to exert pressure. But regime change and taking over a country, not this time.
I'm Valerie Sanderson. Until next time, bye-bye.
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