Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What pivotal details are revealed in episodes 10 through 12?
Welcome back to another episode of The Debrief, covering season three, Finding Heidi. I'm Jacob Sappel, and we're going to be taking a closer look into one of guilt's biggest, if not guilt's biggest case to date with Ryan Wolf. How are you, Ryan? I'm very good, Jacob. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. It's a rainy day over here in the States, but nothing too crazy.
Yeah, so we'll be unpacking the details that stand out. And I can tell you the episodes that we get into today, there are some details that stand out without a doubt, to say the least. So I'm really excited to dive into this one. Don't forget, if you are new to the season, make sure you go back and listen to these because we split hairs on some of these details.
And it can be a little bit overwhelming as these things really start snowballing and rolling out. So make sure you re-listen to those if you've heard them already. If you haven't, definitely go there first.
Chapter 2: How do the hosts emphasize the importance of previous episodes?
So you can keep up with us. And don't forget, we are also on YouTube as well. So if you want that visual piece, as we, especially in these episodes and episodes to come, there's going to be some locations that are really specific. So in order to kind of follow us, we're going to use some maps and things like that. So check out our YouTube channel to follow along there.
But without any further ado, let's get into it. So the first episode we're going to dive into today is episode 10. You know, I have to say, it's amazing to me that as this season progresses, I can't help but notice, almost like whoever the culprit may have been with Heidi and Urban, the recklessness of
of them just really parading around with these people um the amount of sightings alongside whoever we're tracking here or whoever we're looking for they just pile on right and and not really um you know out of the public eye some of these places they walked into are there you don't walk into these places if you're trying to hide yourself, right?
So did that strike you ever going through some of these sightings that come up? Like, man, these guys really just walked around with these people.
Yeah, you know, it's something that really stands out. And, you know, I find it, again, interesting reviewing back over these episodes.
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Chapter 3: What significant sightings are discussed regarding Heidi's case?
And, you know, because this is one of those seasons where there was just, you know, I said it before, sort of an orgy of evidence, right? Like there's just so much stuff came through and so many people with different,
um stories of potential sightings um you know and i suppose i say the word potential too is because a lot of the time there's no way to sort of corroborate it there's no way to confirm 100 that that was what they saw but um i think a lot of them you know, I can walk away and feel pretty confident that, you know, people maybe did see what they saw.
Um, but you know, yeah, it's, it's really the thing that stands out, right? Like that if true, some of these sightings, you know, you're literally taking a woman who has been abducted and parading her around this, this area. And as if, as if there's no problem in the world sort of thing, uh, which is,
it's brazen for sure if if that's what's happened uh and i think you know in these episodes is where we start to see this happening uh and you you can either look at it two ways when you're looking at that right it's either incredibly brazen hard to explain or potentially these sightings aren't what we think they are right and and that's why they're so brazen so you you kind of
You're in the middle there wondering which way it goes and which way it could lean. But in terms of this case, there's something about it that's different to other cases, I think, where there was a brazen and broad daylight element to the whole thing.
Um, you know, even, even when you talk about the Crosby's clearing thing sort of historically and, and whether or not that's, that is Heidi up there or not. But again, it's that broad daylight potential, you know, thing that we're, we're seeing in these episodes now. Um, but, but yeah, it, um, it really stands out.
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Chapter 4: How do the hosts interpret the reckless behavior of potential suspects?
And I think also it lends itself to the fact that this area of Whangamata and Coromandel back then, it was the Wild West a bit. It was pretty isolated. The communities, especially at that time of year when it's not summer, that's one of those situations where
in summer the population swells right to like a hundred thousand people or something but then you know in those winter months there might only be two or three thousand people living there um and so did these people think that they could just brazenly move around because you know it's just this is bugger all people
Right. You know, so so the first one we kind of go to because we go through a number of sightings in this in this episode and the next. First of all, three kind of individuals that, again, from a listener standpoint, kind of it's I don't want to say blend together, but I want to make sure we distinguish the three. We've got Graham Manning, Kay Manning and Michelle.
Talk to me about these three people, who they are, how they how they relate to one another.
Yeah, so Graham Manning, so, you know, we're talking about his sighting. He owned the Foursquare in Thames. And this was such a key part of the police case, which was, and what we'll do is we'll open up. So I'm going to open up the map here so we can have a look. Just give me one second here. Share this window.
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Chapter 5: What doubts arise from Graham Manning's sighting?
Okie dokie. So I've opened up the map that's on our war room, and this is actually good. I've been populating some more points on here today. And it's the only place where you can really see a map that starts to connect all the points from maybe the existing case, police case, as well as some of the points we find
And you can get an idea here when you're looking at sort of the East Coast more where Urban's body was found versus over where Crosby's clearing in Thames is. So zoom in to this area. And this is Thames. And this four square is where Graham...
believed that Heidi and her barn showed up came in to buy a few things you know like fruit and nuts and things like that that you might take on a hike and asked him details about a nearby hike or tramp as we call it in New Zealand and they'd according to him they'd said that they were planning on going up to Table Mountain I believe it is and he had sort of advised them oh no you shouldn't go up that way or do this way because
too difficult it's too wet kind of thing and that they were adamant that that's what they were going to do uh so he was a big part of the police case um and then as the the podcast sort of started coming out uh his daughters got hold of me all these years later and you know he's passed away today uh and uh we we hear from his uh daughters and there's
for the first time ever, I think, some doubt is potentially cast over his story by one of his daughters. Not that she's saying it didn't happen, just saying that he always felt a little bit icky about everything that he had said to police. Because I think, you know, he... he maybe wanted to be involved and in a way was involved.
There was almost a bit of a conflict of interest in a way because I think the police were actually using the Foursquare as, you know, they had an account there and they were going in and out of there all the time dealing.
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Chapter 6: How does Darren Lindsay's sighting impact the case timeline?
So these people were, he would have been dealing with the police on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, and she just sort of said, you know, hey, I always just thought it felt, she was a bit worried about the reliability of what her dad might've said.
yeah and i thought um again i was it was something that we may have suspected through you know in the earlier episodes but coming from her someone so close to him um it definitely kind of uh gives us some affirmation to um to some of those earlier episodes where you kind of talk about um and and you know the term grooming is so uh has such a negative connotation and and for for right reasons but um maybe that's not the word we're looking for but
you know, some form of confirmation bias. I think he was probably fell victim to, um, or, or it seems that way and hearing it from her, um, you know, just like I said, affirm some of those early things that we talked about. Um, she talks about the, the siding with, um, uh, very interesting sighting.
This is kind of the first time we, we, um, get the idea or, or the ideas introduced that there are multiple individuals along with Heidi and her bond, right? She talks about, um, the three men walked in, look, looking like they just murdered someone is what, what she said. Um, when she, that's a very bold way to say that, you know what I mean?
Uh, so my, I do have questions like, okay, before the case of these missing Swedes comes out, is that how you would have described that, you know, or would, or was it just kind of a, they were, they were kind of weird looking. I, they kind of were off putting a little bit. What was your take on that?
When she kind of introduced that, was this the first time that you had heard the idea of multiple people being involved?
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Chapter 7: What new information does Darren Auld provide about the Turners?
Yeah, it's interesting this, right, and so often when you have something like this, and it's just that wording that can hit, you know, and when she says that, like, they look like they just killed someone. Of course, when you're dealing in this case, right, it stands out.
I think at this point in my investigation, yeah, this concept that there could have been more people coming over here connected to this
it was sort of starting to come into the frame and on the map here while I've got it open so we can sort of just zoom out a little bit here and there's three points here which are perfect so we can see the four square location which is in Thames here and then the Tararou Creek Road which is where this car is here this is where
Just up here is where the car was found and is the access way to Crosby's Clearing where that exclamation mark is. So there'd been sightings potentially that I'd heard of, of a car going up and down Tararou Creek Road over that weekend sort of repeatedly, almost described as sort of hoons kind of thing. And people describing a car similar to the Swedes
I hadn't spoken myself to people that had sort of said this but I'd read it in old archive and so on and hearing what she was saying and it started to make me think you know yeah like has someone ended up a group of guys with this car have they driven up Tauru Creek Road like is this connected yeah but again at the same time it was one of these things that
do you what do you do with it right like it's just something that's kind of interesting could be very important but impossible to sort of prove that it's connected um but but yeah it was it it was certainly one of those i know that at the time i remember when i released this episode that got a lot of attention a lot of people thought you know that that point that she'd made um was an important one and they latched on to it
You know, this episode kind of harps on a point that I think I probably discussed in earlier episodes, if not the debrief for season six. The concept of memory anchors is something I hear across a lot of true crime podcasts or investigations where there's these pieces of information.
buried within these memories that are really crisp and really clear to people the things in between them may be a little bit fuzzy but there's those very specific things that that that serve as kind of anchors to your your story or what you do remember and the one that stands out here is um you know where she talks about um watney's cigarette brand was always the same Right.
Uh, except this time it was different. So she remembers that so specifically because there was a brand, right.
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Chapter 8: How do the hosts conclude the episode's discussion on the investigation's direction?
And you always get that brand, you know? And so maybe it wasn't him, you know, and it's those kinds of things that, um, are always really interesting to me because it takes a lead or a tip like this and it roots it in pretty clear reality and allows those people to kind of go back and have those memories remain intact. We're dealing with one of those in season six, too, where...
There are very specific pieces of this story that they're telling that stand out. Other things may get blurry along the way, but no, I know it was this. And matter of fact, in the last couple weeks of debriefs for season six, we've kind of seen that particular detail he mentioned. is exactly what he thought it was, right? So this is another instance of that.
That concept always really comes into play. And in this particular episode, to me, there are a lot of instances of that. This one kind of goes into, and I believe it's a second woman that has another sighting of the Swedes. And again, we talk about, we've heard it over and over, striking people. She talks about how they're gorgeous looking people speaking a foreign language.
And it really struck her. It brings me back to the audacity of parading these people around. Because it's not just that you've abducted these people. You've abducted people that no one's going to miss. Do you know what I mean? So to me that speaks to, I don't know that it speaks to just a, To me, it almost suggests to me that there was no fear of repercussion. You know what I mean?
It almost suggests to me that there is a kind of a grasp on their local position or local perception that alleviates that fear of anything happening to them, you know, and the audacity to do that. That all kind of culminates in the third episode we're going to talk about. But as these things kind of go along, do you find yourself going, okay, what more are these guys capable of?
Do you know what I mean? That's a question that comes to mind for me because we're getting really down to the nitty gritty. We're getting down to these sidings where it's almost sporadic at this point. It's almost like if events are unfolding, it seems like things may be getting out of hand for them, but they're still intact, this confidence.
know what i mean i mean and maybe i'm just kind of chasing a rabbit there um but did you get that sense that that it seems like whatever is happening at this moment in time there's just no real no real consideration for what may come yeah i think a hundred percent right i mean you know like i mean that's the thing right with all these sightings and i feel like
At least some of them have to be accurate. And many of them have that same familiar feel, which is the real public nature to it. It's so hard because with these sightings, in some ways they do become kind of sporadic. They sort of pop up around in different spots, but people often describe sort of the same thing.
A guy fitting like a swarthy kind of complexion, sort of maybe with a mustache or something with Heidi, like holding her hand or holding her arm or something like this. And it's just, it seems to generally too, it always tends to be the same thing. It's that thing, but it's just in slightly different spots.
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