Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
All right, welcome back to another episode of The Debrief covering Season 3, Finding Heidi. I'm Jacob Saffel, and we're going to continue diving into this super, super long case. I would say probably the deepest case Guild's ever had alongside our host, Ryan Wolf. Ryan, how are you, man?
Yeah, I'm great, Jacob. Great. And looking forward to diving into these episodes because, yeah, we're getting pretty deep now.
Absolutely. So today we'll be covering episodes 13, 14, and 15. And if you're re-listening with us, which I definitely encourage that you do, there are no shortages of fireworks in these episodes. So we're going to dive right in here and get into it because we've got a lot to cover. But
uh before i do that don't forget you can always um follow us on youtube to see these debriefs as well as we pull up some of these especially in these these later episodes we're really going to start getting into some locations and things like that so check those out as well as in the war room for subscribers on the website the guildpodcast.com we've got an interactive map there that's always changing always adding so you can see those and really really dive into the geography of what we're talking about so
uh without anything else let's get into it so um first off we're gonna go into episode 13. this is a fun one um i have to say this is one where a video diary at that time like we have now would have been amazing right yeah absolutely so we saw ryan um dive into quite a trek uh with with ray to crosby's clearing before we really get into the trip i have to commend you man um
you're you're this is no short trek right if i'm not mistaken it's like three and a half hours or one way am i off there um yeah so this is the hike up to crosby's clearing is you would class it as uh in this sort of very difficult category i guess because there's parts that are very steep you're kind of clambering up rocks and stuff and also it's sort of the terrain is muddy
very wet um you know so yeah i like it's um it's not too long i'm trying to remember how long ray and i took to do it yeah perhaps we were about three and a half hours getting up there um but for some people it may take a lot longer ray is like very experienced bushman and hunter so you know he can kind of go all day forever kind of thing um but but yeah you know i i love if you if you sort of know me and you follow me a bit like i love like hiking and tramping and that kind of thing so um
You know, I'm always up for a trip into the bush, especially, you know, going to Crosby's Clearing. It's such a huge part of this case, you know, and there is a memorial up there at the hut, the new hut that's been built next to that. So I was really keen to go see that too.
But also, of course, you know, seeing the location of where the jacket was found, where the wallet was found, very exciting stuff.
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Chapter 2: What critical moments occur in episodes 13, 14, and 15?
And if that's coming up there, Jacob, let's run through this.
So come down here. You're coming down the track. Let's get a bit local. We're not coming down the track yet. Down the track. Now there's a couple options. He might have gone down here, a little track to the side, a couple meters down perhaps, and Graham sees he came down, and he looks down the hill, and he turns back and he saw the jacket, so it would be, somewhere in this area.
I think it's probably this one here. Another little mound here. I'm in here, and he's cut through the Super Jack. All the Super Jack, I don't know if this was here, but then it was a bit more accessible. No, so he's gone, looked down the hill, and as he's turned to come back, There's the jacket somewhere in here, just sitting here.
Well, let's just pause that for a second there. Because the GPS unit we're using in the coordinates, there's a margin of error of, I think, when we were up there based on what we were getting, maybe a margin of error of up to 10 meters or something. So we couldn't, we're taking a bit of a guess exact spot. But I think the idea of this video, it gives you an understanding of,
of what you're looking at in terms of what the undergrowth is like? And I mean, when you see this, what are your first thoughts?
You know, I'll be honest. I mean, you use the word obvious in the episode and it's tough, man, because Just like you said, I mean, as I'm seeing you walk down these paths or tracks, they're small. I mean, this is not, you know, an easy hike.
And depending on what this looked like that day, right, if it was being searched and how thorough that was and, you know, the skill level of who was doing it, if it looked like that, it being missed at least seems plausible, right? to me, just at first glance there, if that's what the vegetation looked like at the time.
And then you talked about earlier in the season kind of how searches work and the level of difficulty that exists there and really knowing what you're doing. That being said, the state that it seems like they were found in, that throws a wrench in that train of thought, you know, because Like you said, it seems to be that it was found neatly folded, very untouched.
It doesn't seem like it'd been there for too long. I think that alone kind of lends itself to suggest that that probably happened later. Now, that being said, that kind of brings us into another question, which is, and you pose it really, really great in the episode. It's, who benefited most from these things being found when they were found? What is your opinion on that?
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Chapter 3: How does the geography of Crosby's Clearing impact the investigation?
And then when they left, she left the jacket there as a breadcrumb trail, you know, sort of thing. Yeah, plausible as well. But yeah, I mean, it's just, there's something about this jacket and the wallet and the way it was found and everything that I think is just it's so key to the case. Um, the way it was found by Graham going up by himself.
Now I've spent plenty of time with Graham, um, spoken to him a lot and I would never question his credibility or his integrity in terms of, you know, the theory that perhaps did was Graham and cahoots with the police or something. Right. Did, did they sort of wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say, Hey, go have a look up there today. You know, um,
i don't think that's what's happened um but you know you can't deny that it is pretty freakish that you've got all these search teams like with military support they can't find anything and then one person goes up on their own uh and and immediately finds this jacket right i mean it's yeah yes that's
So moving into these next episodes, I will say that this is kind of the last time we're going to really touch on Crosby's clearing just to finish at least the initial finale of this season.
So that being said, knowing all of the questions that we have kind of swirling around this location, knowing the importance it is in this investigation, at least for me, I don't think that we can really definitively say ā
you know was was heidi there ever or was she not it's it's i don't i don't think we can make that determination at this point but what are your kind of final thoughts on that location and its significance to to this case yeah you know the thing with crosby's is that like we were just talking about off here just just now right and it's kind of the elephant in the room with this thing is that and the police viewed it this way right is that
It's clearly important because first off, if you believe John and Mel, John Cassidy and Mel Knopf, they did see this couple at Crosby's clearing. And now this is, it's important because there's some people that believe that they didn't. And this was all fabricated, you know, just to try and catch Tamahiti with, you know, in cahoots with the police, right? I don't believe that.
I think those guys were good guys. I think they definitely got manipulated along by police. But so if we say, okay, they definitely saw someone there. Well, those people never came forward. If they were there for innocent reasons, they never came forward to say, hey, man, sorry, that was us. Yeah, we met you up there when we were just going for a hike. They never came forward.
So either those people were Heidi and David Tamahere, as the police said, or it was someone else. And the question is, if it was someone else, well, then who was it? Who in this case has come to the fore as being a potential suspect?
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Chapter 4: What items were discovered at Crosby's Clearing and their significance?
And of course, allegedly David Turner. And David Turner at that time looked very similar to David Tamahere. Very similar. Is it possible that it was David Turner that was at Crosby's Clearing that day and that he was... with Heidi or potentially with someone else.
Now, some of the stuff I've never spoken really about publicly, but when I first met Darren Old, there was something that he was very adamant about and that he felt that the Crosby's clearing sighting wasn't David Tamahere, but it was David Turner and his girlfriend at the time.
And I think that the sort of inference here is that they were up there to perhaps lay a false trail of where Heide and Oban may have gone. Now, you could assume that they didn't expect that they were going to be stumbled across like that. So if they were actually just up there to go plant some of the
The items of the Swedes perhaps now start to think back to that luggage table that's hanging off of a fence somehow saying, hey, have a look up here. You know, that's almost like too good to be true. I mean, it's like what you would see in a B-rate crime movie or something, you know, and you'd say, come on, as if that's going to happen. But I want to, I'll show you one thing here.
now there's a uh the thing the thing that that darren always said about the crosby's clearing siding Well, actually, let's think about what Mel and John said about the Crosby's clearing sighting. First of all, they never said it was Heidi. They just described a blonde woman, as we all know, right, with sort of shoulder-length blonde hair. She's got the hood up with this green poncho.
There's one thing that they said, she looked out of place in the bush. And, you know, Mel particularly said he noticed she had a lot of makeup. Like, I think he even described nail polish, but, you know, makeup.
um heidi was not known to wear makeup on that trip anyone that they interviewed throughout that entire trip of new zealand they'd been in new zealand for a few months never described her as wearing makeup um you know she she probably she knows she probably didn't she didn't need to and she's not that kind of person right
And especially, it's strange that if you would have makeup on going into the bush. Now, this is a ridiculous theory that I'll quickly talk about, that the police proposed that David Tamahere had forced her to put makeup on as some kind of, you know, because he wanted her to be wearing makeup or something.
And this is what they put forward as their theory as to how to explain that Heidi had makeup on when she wasn't known to wear makeup. However, David Turner's girlfriend at the time had shoulder length blonde hair, looked similar and was known for one particular thing. She used to wear a lot of makeup. Um, and that is something that I've heard many times from many people. Uh,
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Chapter 5: What theories surround the finding of the jacket and wallet?
Her rescuers potentially walk into this area
two like strong you know relatively young men I think they were only in their 40s at the time the perfect people to potentially save her in this situation when David Tamahiti is apparently there with her and she says nothing you could argue right like oh she's trying to protect them she doesn't want him to attack them or something but I still think you would try and do something you would at least try and
do something to show them that you're in distress. Um, you know, and that can be done without having to tell someone something, right. You know, you can use your eyes or something. Um, and that obviously never happens.
So.
I always found that hard to reconcile. And I mean, I think the police in the trial, they called an expert witness that described, you know, that she was effectively in a state of shock and was unable to do this. But I think, again, when you consider that and you combine it with the makeup and so on, Yeah, but that's my thought.
I've always felt that I didn't think it was Heidi that was up there that day. Doesn't make any sense to me. And you have to remember that Urban's body was found. The Crosby's clearing theory was created first. Two years later, Urban's body's found in a completely different location. They amended the theory to try and fit back to the Crosby's theory, but I think in reality...
heidi's body is over on the east coast of the peninsula somewhere as well that's just that's that's my feeling anyway well on that note it's going to we're going to go over to that side of the island then you know these these last two episodes here um but before this episode ends we got a bombshell which is that um the kind of the realization that that um donald was ready to speak at one point
Um, and in the form of a letter that he sent to a journalist, I believe. Um, and what was crazy. I mean, obviously this is uncovered because of where there's one word at the end of that letter that kind of blows everything open and really identifies who it is. And it's, and it's the word dad.
Yeah. I remember, uh, I remember, uh,
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Chapter 6: How does David Turner's involvement complicate the case?
Alright. And let me share this. OK, share this window. Now you can see that when I say swamp, it's probably not what you're going to expect.
OK, this is what? This wow. I'm not sure. In what he? Fog underneath this, I'm not sure. And his glasses. This area here, I'm pretty sure the access was along here.
Urban's body was up there and the road comes down through here. It goes down that way. And I think there used to be an access that went along here. So if you were going to dump body, I mean, I'd imagine you'd drive in here maybe.
wow and you can you can see where the water used to come because it's obviously run to the edge here uh yeah i think my the internet's going a bit slow there but you can get an idea of of what you're looking at here and even though you're talking about a swamp it's not really it's not like you can just go along and look through the water and pull something through the water it's completely
vegetated basically now but actually when you do walk out there you can just feel the water there and if you go out a bit further i've been out there many more times since and there are some pockets of water that you can actually see the water and you can put a stick in and it goes down fairly deep but when you see this uh now you get an idea of how difficult to virtually impossible it would be to search that area um and
But I don't even personally know how it would actually be possible to search that swamp, just from my experience of going there and looking at it, given the passage of time. And back then, there was a lot more water. So something that could have potentially been weighted down or thrown in there would have been overgrown and would be now under however many feet of this sort of vegetation.
Yeah, yeah. And what's crazy is you then go on to speak to someone else, Lyle, who knows the area very well. First of all, he found gear that we didn't even know that had happened that was kind of packaged up, very similar to some other things that were important to this case. Um, something that we hear from, from this finding that we we've heard common before was the labels were cut out.
That's not the first time we've heard that, that tactic. Right. But, um, he also talks about having, you know, smelling, um, a very distinct smell of decomposition. Um, and what's awesome is you kind of make this discovery right there, live on that, on the podcast where, Hey, the location you're talking about is the exact same location that a sighting that Linda had, what was that? Correct?
Yeah. Yeah. We're talking about a very, very similar area. Yeah, exactly.
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