Chapter 1: What recent Supreme Court decision impacts the Guilt podcast?
All right, guys, welcome back to another episode of The Debrief covering season three, Finding Heidi. I'm Jacob Saffel alongside Ryan Wolf as we're diving into probably one of the, if not the biggest case we've had on the Guild podcast to date. Ryan, you doing OK?
I'm doing great. Thanks, Jack. Excited to get into it.
Deal, man. Well, before we dive off in it, as you guys know, this is happening in real time, the things that we're covering and the upcoming retrial. So we've got some developments that may happen from week to week, and we've got one this week. So I'm going to kick it to Ryan.
Chapter 2: How does the recent takedown request affect previous episodes?
Fill us in a little bit on what we've learned over the last week.
Yeah, so this is a big one and it's going to affect this debrief that we're working on and we will be working on over the coming weeks and season three of the podcast in general. So just quickly to cover it off, obviously there was the recent Supreme Court decision that quashed David Tomahedi's convictions from back in 1991.
And part of that, remember when I was reading the decision, the last line in that decision said words to the effect of Tamahere's legal team have the right to ask for takedowns of any media that covers his original conviction or any media that they may deem to be prejudicial against a retrial.
So in New Zealand law and most, well, all Commonwealth law, basically, you have the right to a trial without the jury knowing about any previous convictions or anything else that may have happened that may have sort of prejudiced their decision. And so that's what this is all about, really.
So, initially, I didn't get sent anything for the first couple of weeks, and I thought, oh, okay, we may have dodged a bullet here. But sure enough, a couple of days ago, I had a letter come through from Tomahiti's legal team, fairly detailed, going through a bunch of episodes from season three of the podcast.
To their credit, they've obviously spent a lot of time and actually gone through every single episode to find specific mentions and things. And they've asked for some episodes to be edited or removed.
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Chapter 3: What challenges do the hosts face in discussing the case?
And we're going to do that. There's probably about 10 episodes. But more importantly for us right now is that the first two debrief episodes fall into that category at this stage because we discussed David Tomahiti's original conviction, which of course has now been quashed.
So it means I'm going to have to go back and perhaps edit those episodes or they're going to have to be pulled down for the short term. But what it means now for us going forward so that we can avoid that happening in these debriefs is that Jacob and I just have to be very careful about what we say. So we're going to,
avoid talking about David Tomahiti's original conviction and the overall trial. Now, this is going to be quite challenging at times because throughout this whole story, we often jump back and reference things that were in the original trial. And we're not going to be able to do that because if we make one mistake, then this is going to get pulled down.
And I can promise you that they'll be listening to this episode to look to see if there's anything that reaches that. So if you... While you're listening to this, just remember that Jacob and I are sort of processing as we're speaking, thinking, okay, what can I say and what can't I?
And if we pause for a second or whatever, it's just because we're trying to figure that out so that we don't fall into that trap. But we can make this work for sure because a lot of what we're going to talk about is my experiences and this takedown is not related to any new material, any new evidence, any witnesses that I spoke to or anything that I've done.
It's all related to the original conviction. So I think we're pretty confident we can work around this and eventually in time. And just to be clear as well, so at this point, We don't know. So the Supreme Court has ordered a retrial. And I sort of say that in that way because it's still up to the Crown prosecutor to decide if the police are going to actually pursue a retrial.
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Chapter 4: What specific evidence was found at Crosby's Clearing?
So at this point right now, Tamahiti's defense team are preparing as if that's going to happen. Of course, that's what you do, right? You just prepare anyway, assuming a retrial will happen. But we don't actually know yet. So that decision may come next month. I understand there's a hearing halfway through next month that could be adjourned.
But sometime in the next few months, we're going to find out if that retrial happens. And if the retrial doesn't happen, then this takedown will no longer apply and we'll be able to just go back to what we're doing. This is only related to the retrial. So If there is a retrial, then this could apply for the next couple of years, which is probably how long a retrial would take.
But a retrial would be interesting nonetheless, right? So we'll sort of see what happens over the next little while. But that's where this thing is. But without further ado, let's jump into it and try not to get this episode taken down if we can. And if David Tamahede's legal team are listening, we'll do our best. We'll do our best here.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, well, yeah, so this week we're going to be diving into the next three episodes, which are going to be, um, episodes seven, eight, and nine, and a lot happens. So, um, as always follow along with us, don't forget we are on YouTube as well. So oftentimes we do reference things like locations and maps, and we may be using those from time to time.
So YouTube is a great resource. If you haven't checked that out yet, just go, um, yeah, hop onto YouTube, search the guilt podcast. You'll find us pretty quick. Um, But yeah, so let's get into it. Episode seven. So this one really dives a little bit further into, we've mentioned it lightly up until this point, but it dives in further into Jason and Darren and Jamie.
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Chapter 5: How do weather conditions impact search efforts in the case?
Yeah. if you haven't noticed, there's a ton of names that come in and out of this, this case in terms of, you know, this guy found this, this person found that this person was involved here.
And I think that just speaks of, of the scale of not only, um, the reaction, but the community there on, you know, in the core mantle and how, how they really came together and everyone, I mean, it was all hands on deck. Um, So we're going to talk about a couple really specific instances here. This is, we kind of first take off talking about the tent that was found.
I believe it was around Crosby's clearing. Am I right in that?
Yeah, that's right. And so, again, we'll try and be careful. Now, I believe that this will be fine for us to talk about because at the end of the day, Jason Donald, who we're talking about here, was a young man. He found a tent at Crosby's Clearing at the time. That's a fact. Whether it's connected to the case or not, I guess is still up in the air, right?
But yeah, so Jason, he was only young at the time, an avid bush goer, tramper. And I go and meet with Jason in this episode, and he knew so much about the Crosby's clearing area. And there's actually quite a bit of history to it. And I remember thinking at the time, I should release a bonus episode about it, because It's up in this really remote area of the bush.
It's quite difficult to get to, but Crosby's clearing actually was once a place which was basically Crosby's settlement. So there was actually a town is the wrong word, but like a village up in the bush here where
some settlers i suppose you'd say had gone up there cleared this large area and started building like a small town i guess you know like um homesteads and different bits and pieces um you know they were doing all kinds of logging and stuff up there and there was a few key families up there so the area is quite big it's not just like a little campground
um but then eventually uh for some reason i can't remember exactly what it was it sort of just died away and the family sort of moved away perhaps it was too hard or there were other places that made more sense uh but so when that when they uh left the area you know the the trees and everything sort of slowly started to take to come back in and take over uh but you know it's still
You can still, if you look at an aerial map now, you can kind of still see that the area is clearer than the rest of the bush. But it's a common, it's a, now it's kind of like an intersecting point between a few different tracks in the bush. You know, you imagine back then when it was a settlement, they'd have different ways to get up there. And so now people kind of use it as a campsite.
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Chapter 6: What is the significance of decision points in search operations?
He finds this tent, um, in 1989, um, with a notion that signed Pat Kelly.
And the note was, was very interesting to me because, um, it talks about, Hey, I was, I was tired of waiting for you. Right. That's what the note says. Um, That's very interesting to me because if the scenario went like police seem to think that it did, Heidi and Urban, in what scenario would they be waited on? Do you know what I mean?
In the scenario that they've laid out, these people are only going, whoever is with them, I doubt would let them just go somewhere. Right. So that, that kind of threw, it was a curve ball for me. Like, well, who could he be? Who could he be waiting for?
Yeah. And I mean, like, you know, whoever this, this might be. And I think we're trading and we're treating in dangerous territory when we're thinking about, you know, the police and what they're talking about here. But yeah, I think it's an interesting one, right? Like this, this note in the tent and what it could really mean and who it was for and who the note was for.
I don't know, and I think that's always been the sort of question. I don't think that question's ever really been answered. But yeah, I think we'll probably be straying in the territory of the police case there. So perhaps let's move on to something else.
It was something that really kind of took me back a minute. But something that he does mention, and I think it's really important to clarify, in earlier episodes when we go through things like Melnoff's testimony and how that kind of developed, I think it's very important to recognize what we find out about Melnoff in this episode, which is that this guy ā
really put himself in financial jeopardy contributing to this case and finding these people. So if there was ever really any question about his integrity or how invested or what his motives may be, I feel like this puts it to bed because this guy is not going to voluntarily put himself in that situation and invest so much in something there wasn't
that he wasn't connected to and he could be swayed. Does that make sense?
Yeah, I think so. Uh, and I think it's something that I've always sort of said is that, um,
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Chapter 7: What new witness accounts emerge in the investigation?
You know, Melnoff in particular, I think he also had said that, you know, that this woman that he saw, you know, had makeup and, you know, and said some things that sort of didn't align with what we would know of Heidi. And again, you know, to hold that integrity while you're being and you're going through that whole process of over many weeks and months.
And, you know, yeah, I think that goes to say something about these guys. And I think that's probably... It's probably why it's always been such an important part of this thing. And, you know, I'm going to call it this thing, but yeah, in the bigger picture, you know, they really, so much ends up hinging on them and may still do as this thing goes on.
Right. Well, it's, you know, I just felt like it was really easy to coming out of those earlier episodes to, you know, low hanging fruit would be to question their integrity. And I think it's very important that we continue to hammer that home that that's not that's not how these guys were. That's not who they were by multiple accounts. But I think that really is put on display there.
You know, Jason talks about the weather conditions at the time. At the time of the searches in this area. So talk to me about that a little bit. So it's not just that they were searching through this thick bush and and just kind of the natural state of the area. It was also not great weather conditions at the time, which just added more issues. Right.
Yeah, so I mean, when we're talking about kind of that May period in New Zealand, you know, you're talking about May, June, those kind of areas, I mean, which is, you know, what we're pretty much getting into now. And today at home, it's good weather, but it's just been terrible weather for the last while. And
that's what they were sort of encountering at that same time and so jason you know he was the one that found this tent he was also part of the search teams as these as happened then you know these small communities that all sort of get together and yeah like you're searching through bush that is on a good day still wet and damp and and thick then you combine that with horrible weather and fog and and
That morning dampness that just never leaves, that makes a search like this incredibly difficult. You're constantly soaking wet. That's just that other element that adds to the challenge that they would have faced. And there are no flat areas around, right? So you're going to be on the side of slopes and walking up hills and you're going to be slipping down in mud.
So all of those little things are going to add up. So that's just another element of it that would have been a real challenge.
And he brings up a really interesting mechanic of, of searches, which is the concept of a decision point, um, which only, you know, further, you know, you know, it increases your, if you thought that searches were simple, if we haven't said it enough, they're just not right.
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Chapter 8: What emotional experiences do the hosts share at the memorial site?
But the concept of a decision point where it's basically if they're retracing these people's steps, uh, And they hit places where like, OK, well, they could have done this or they could have done that, depending on what decision they made, which, OK, if I'm searching now, I've got another option to have to consider and to cover. Right.
And so in these areas, I mean, do you see that the concept of a decision point coming up quite a bit, especially when they're searching the bush like this?
Yeah, for sure, right? And it's an interesting thought, right, that decision point idea. And I mean, it's exactly right. Like through your day, every day, you're always making a decision, aren't you? And it's like that butterfly effect kind of thing, you know, like what happens if that decision happens?
uh you know and just as you were saying that i just remember it reminded me of like chess right chess is obviously a complicated game but there are only 64 there are only 64 squares on the board you know and there's only there's that many pieces yet the number of possible moves in a chess game is, I believe, more than there are stars in the universe times 10 or something like that.
So it shows you how quickly things can multiply when you're only making one little, do I move this piece here or do I move that piece? You do that like 10 times and it's an almost infinite number of possibilities. So you're going up a track, right? And it's like,
should we go down this little way or should we go there or should we go to this hut here first or should we camp over there and each one of these can lead to another one and another one and I could imagine how challenging that would be. And you imagine, right, you just get one of those things wrong and you could end up in the complete wrong direction.
And what it also does, it stretches your resources. You know, okay, well, we need to allocate two people to that one and that one. And then you're trying to prioritize perhaps these decision points. What's the most likely decision point? Yeah. You know, in terms of going up there, right, like, it's not likely that a decision point is going to be to leave the track.
So we could assume, right, that you're going to go up in a direction. There are now two different tracks. It's possible the decision could have been made to go this way, which is actually the incorrect route, you know, and so we're going to have to look at that. And I would say as well,
Uh, in New Zealand, I've tramped a lot and there do come times sometimes where you stand at a point and you're like, uh, is that the track up there? Or is this the track here? Because you're very much in the bush and there are hunters go through the bush all the time and animals, pigs and deer and so on.
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