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Chapter 1: What is the main focus of the Advice Line episode?
Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show.
Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Seventh Generation co-founder Jeffrey Hollander. Jeffrey, it's so great to have you back on the show. Welcome back.
I'm happy to be here. Great to see you again.
You were first on How I Built This in 2021. And as always, if you guys haven't heard that episode, we will put a link to it in the show notes. And in that episode, we had you on with your co-founder, Alan Newman, that you hadn't spoken to in decades. And in 1992, as we talked about in the story, the board of directors pushed Alan out. You stayed on as CEO until 2010.
And by 2016, Seventh Generation was acquired by Unilever for about $600 to $700 million. It's an amazing story because it really uncovered, you know, the delicate relationship between two partners. And you just have recently put a book out about your story called Built for a Better World, how Seventh Generation pioneered a movement that changed the purpose of business.
So congrats on that, Jeffrey. Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited about it. Before I ask you about the book, I know that, you know, when you came on, it was a big deal because the two of you was the first time you had spoken in years. And there was a lot of sensitive things that we talked about. How did you feel about that?
I mean, of course, the timeout was hard, but on reflection, how'd you feel about it?
I felt great about it. In some ways, it helped reconcile some unresolved issues. And I think we both approached it with an openness to reevaluate what we thought we did right and wrong. And so it was sort of a growing experience in a way, a bit of a healing experience. So I'm thrilled that you gave us the opportunity to do that.
I mean, it was clear that there was a lot of mutual respect. And it was hard because when partners fall out, it's hard. But the two of you came and really talked about that story, I thought, in a really candid way. I'm curious about the book writing process. What did you want to do in the book? What was your aim?
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Chapter 2: How can small businesses effectively market their products?
I wanted to try to gather together all the lessons that we learned running Seventh Generation as a business that put its purpose ahead of profit. And I wanted other businesses who wanted to follow in our footsteps to learn from what we had learned and what I thought business needs to do in the future. Responsible business has not fixed all the problems we're facing in the world.
And we need to make some dramatic changes if that is going to happen.
When you work with founders who have a social mission, right, who want to – and again, that is – there's been a bit of a shift, right? There was a lot of that kind of startup energy happening yesterday.
you know, sort of between 2010, 2020, I think some of it's faded a little bit, but there was a sort of the one-to-one, you know, buy one, we'll give one away kind of thing, and a lot of socially focused businesses. It seems like that has faded a little bit. First of all, do you agree with that?
I can't understand why it looks like that, given what you read in the newspaper. But
When I look at who's signing up for my class and when I talk to people, the enthusiasm they have for using business to try to solve social and environmental problems in some regards is growing, but it's not being talked about as much as it was before because people are scared, sort of stick their head up and say, hey, I'm doing this great stuff.
there is sort of this new language called green hushing, where people do sustainable things and they don't talk about them. And part of it is the sort of political environment we live in. And we have many aspects of responsible business like diversity and inclusion that businesses have a great business case for doing because it has a positive effect on the company, but
but it also comes with risks. So people continue the practice, they just don't call it diversity and inclusion, and they don't really publicize it on their website in spite of the fact that they continue to do it. And that's a confusing landscape, but we can't afford to have business take its eye off the critical nature of addressing social and environmental problems we have.
We just can't afford that.
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Chapter 3: What strategies can social businesses use to combat greenhushing?
Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Jeffrey Hollander, co-founder of Seventh Generation. Welcome to the show. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi, Guy and Jeffrey. I'm Christina Molinaro calling from Dayton, Ohio. I'm the co-founder of 25 and Pine with my husband, Nick. We build functional furniture for parents and kids to share where you make your space theirs in 10 seconds.
Awesome. Christina, thanks for calling. So you're in Dayton, and you make furniture for toddlers. Am I describing that right?
Well, a bunch of kids' furniture is built just for toddlers and just for kids. And so when we had our son, our furniture stopped working for us. It was either made for them or made for us, and it didn't work for both of us. So you're constantly choosing to sit on the floor and be uncomfortable or send them into a playroom while you're emptying the dishwasher and they're somewhere else.
And that's just like the part that nobody thinks about, I think, when they're designing. Kids furniture is that your space starts separating you from your kid. So we wanted to make furniture that helps you stay in the same space.
So tell me a little bit about what the furniture looks like.
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Chapter 4: What insights does Jeffrey Hollander share about writing his book?
Is it is it I mean, do you sell sofas and like what do you sell?
So we built our business around side tables pretty much. And so where we started was with a table and a chair set for him. So for him, it's a place to read, have a snack, play with his toys, something that's his size and easy for him to use. Okay. But then for us, it also works as well. So it's...
It's weight tested for adults, but the chair that he sits in actually flips and becomes a stool for one of us. And then the table flips into a bench so we can sit down and be a part of it with him. So we're not hovering. We're actually like sitting and participating and connecting with our son.
So when you put on its side, it's a chair or a bench. And then when you flip it, it's like a bench for an adult or you could use it as a side table, basically. Exactly. Awesome. And where are you making this stuff? Are you guys making it yourself?
Yes. So we have been making all of everything by hand.
Wow. So you're doing it like in your garage or like you rented a warehouse space or?
So we did start in our apartment garage. And then when we bought a house, we moved it to the basement. And then a video went viral on TikTok and we no longer could fit in our basement and had to move into a commercial space. And luckily one became available. So we've been there since.
Wow. And give us a sense of how you're doing on sales.
So our sales over the past five years has been about $600,000. Is that in total or is that every year?
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Chapter 5: How can founders attract customers through social media?
The one that went mega viral was right before Christmas and it was a wine table. So you could, it would hold two glasses of wine. So you can imagine why that went viral. And then our sales went off and then that's when we were able to move into the commercial.
Was the video funny? Was it showing parent like because you mentioned? Yeah, I mean, I've had two kids are growing now. But I remember toddler furniture is a pain. You can't sit in it. You can't. It's it, you know, and then when the kid grows, it's useless. Like, tell me what you did with the videos.
So all of our social media up to this point is just me in my woodshop explaining who I am, what we're doing, telling my story. So now I think it's more of just like I'm in a different space. I'm in my house showing my kid, trying to not show his face, which is, as you probably know, a sensitive topic online. So I'm still trying to tell our story and whatnot.
I'm just looking for other ways, I think, to reach them because I don't know that... if people are just scrolling social media that they're like, oh, this is what I need. I don't, maybe the messaging isn't clicking. Something is just, it's just different from what I've been selling for the past five years.
So I'm just trying to figure out like what's next or what's missing or what I can do better.
Yeah. Do all the visitors for your social media come through to your website? Is that how it's set up?
Yeah, in the past. And so a lot of our followers and email subscribers and things are from our old products and things as well.
One of the things that you might look at is to also, there's probably lots of benefits to your product that people are not aware of when they see it online. And maybe there's an electronic newsletter that you can send out to everybody who's interested that shares more benefits than they might get from a TikTok or a Instagram message. And maybe it's about the materials you use.
Maybe it's a story about a friend of yours who used the furniture in an unusual way. Maybe it's about the finishes that are maybe non-toxic and safer for people to have in their home. Dig into all of the stories that you can tell about your business and find a way to keep telling those stories and engaging people in ways that will make them feel excited about buying products from you.
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Chapter 6: What are the challenges and opportunities in selling cherry vinegar?
I just started some small running ads just to kind of test the waters and using AI just to like help me figure out how to do ads because it is intimidating. But I guess my other like hesitation, I like the funny idea. It's I think I get tripped up a little bit because it's we're not we didn't I mean, we designed it better, but other people do like sell this product.
So we have another product in line that's about to launch. Yeah. That's actually it looks like a coffee table. And then you flip the top over and it has train tracks and spots for blocks to plug into. And so you can make little tunnels and things. So I think what you're saying I'm I keep thinking about that table more and getting more excited about things that I can do with that as well.
I think you could do versions of it. I mean, I think the other thing is it might be worthwhile sort of seeding this with 10 or 15 creators or influencers who talk about toddlers and just saying, all right, we're going to send these out. We're going to take a risk here. I see these sets are not cheap, right?
But maybe you send a stool, you pick 10 influencers, you say, we're just going to send it to them and with no ask, but hopefully it'll work and hopefully they might talk about it.
Yeah, that's a good idea.
And you don't have to go after people that have a million followers. Exactly. The people with 10,000, 5,000, 100 followers are much more open to doing something with you and they won't charge you money. I think they'll be happy to help.
And that's the way I would build sort of what you call brand ambassadors, people that love what you're doing and keep posting about it because they're excited about what you've accomplished.
Yeah, that's a good point, too. And I'm sure parents who are busy with toddlers running around would be excited to have something to make their days easier, which is exactly what we're going after. So that'll make sense.
Yeah. It's a really cool idea. I mean, again, I think amplify the best performing content with a little bit of money, if you can, and try it and send it to some influencers with 5,000 or 10,000 followers. That's significant. And see what happens. I'll try it.
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Chapter 7: How can plant-based dog food brands navigate consumer skepticism?
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Sure. My name is Phil Halstead. I am co-founder with my wife, Sarah Red Truck Orchards. I'm calling from our farm here in Northport, Michigan. And Red Truck Orchards produces vinegar from cherries. We live on a cherry farm. And our cherries are a super fruit. So they're full of these natural anthocyanins, which act as antioxidants and anti-inflammatories in our bodies.
Our cherry vinegar is good for you. It tastes great. And it's made and bottled right here on the farm.
Wow. Welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in, Phil. So cherries, I guess I should have known this. Are there like a big thing in that part of Michigan?
Cherries are a big thing like in New York, Utah, obviously in Northwest. But up here in Michigan, we call it the tart cherry capital of the world. It's here in Traverse City, Michigan. We're just north of there.
Which is like the perfect cherry you want for a cherry pie, actually.
It's a great cherry pie. And our vinegar is made from these tart Montmorency cherries that have these health benefits, but also very flavorful with the mix in also sweet cherries like those that you buy in the grocery store.
All right. Cherry vinegar, I think pretty straightforward. You basically take cherries and let them sit in like grapes and turn into basically wine. And then you let that keep fermenting and turns into vinegar, right?
Yeah.
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Chapter 8: What final advice does Jeffrey Hollander give to entrepreneurs?
You have your grapes vinegars. So we can make a balsamic version. We can age it. We can take it and flavor it if you've seen like apple cider vinegar. But it's a new vinegar base. And then what we want to do is basically we have a pipeline of these new products over time that we'll bring out.
Great. And how much does a bottle cost?
$17.99.
So this is a premium-priced product, which means it must be a premium product.
It is a premium product. It has, if you think of it as apple cider vinegar, so we have the mother. We have the same acidity of vinegar. Vinegar's good for you. But then we have all these polyphenols and the superfruited cherries. And of course, as we get our scale up, then we can bring that price down.
Got it. Okay, so you're still, and I imagine you're not yet profitable because you're still pretty new.
Yeah.
Unfortunately not, yes. Okay. And before I bring in Jeffrey, your question for us?
Well, when our purpose to achieve and support local farms by producing this vinegar, what we're trying to do is really understand our messaging and actions that would accelerate trial and increase purchase intent. That's what we're trying to do.
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