Huberman Lab
Dr. Becky Kennedy: Protocols for Excellent Parenting & Improving Relationships of All Kinds
26 Feb 2024
Chapter 1: What is discussed at the start of this section?
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Becky Kennedy. Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist specializing in parent-child relationships.
She received her degrees and did her training at Duke University and Columbia University in New York. She is the author of the bestselling book, Good Inside, a guide to becoming the parent you want to be.
She is also the founder and creator of an online learning platform, also called Good Inside, at which parents and parents-to-be can learn the best possible parenting skills that are grounded in the fields of clinical psychology, that have been proven to work in the real world, and that can allow people to navigate common sticking points in parent-child relationships.
During today's discussion, you will learn a tremendous amount of actionable knowledge about what it is to be a good parent. This is a conversation that pertains not just to parents and parents to be, but also uncles, aunts, grandparents, and also those of you not planning to, or who do not want children.
I say that because while everything we discussed today is grounded in the discussion around parent-child relationships, it indeed pertains to all of us and relationships of all kinds, including romantic relationships, friendships, workplace relationships, and our relationship to self.
Dr. Kennedy defines for us and makes clear and actionable what the exact job of good parenting is and how that relates to other relationships that we might have. She explains how to set healthy boundaries and in fact, defines exactly what healthy boundaries are There's a lot of misconception about that.
We also talk a lot about empathy and the need to make children and ourselves feel safe in all kinds of relating. We discuss how to navigate disagreements and arguments, apologies and punishments, reward, and on and on, all framed within a real world, real time context. What I mean by that,
And what I think really sets apart Dr. Becky Kennedy's work from so much else that you'll see out there on parent-child and other types of relationships is that she makes what to do and say and what not to do and say in a variety of real-world contexts very clear such that you can access that knowledge and do those specific things and avoid those specific things even when things get tense.
In fact, especially when things get difficult or tense. By the end of today's episode, you will have learned a dozen or more very potent clinically backed tools to navigate parent-child relating, including your relationship to your own parents, alive or dead, and your relationship to self.
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Chapter 2: How can parents establish healthy boundaries?
Wow. so much there and I love it. And here's one of the reasons I love it. This notion of sturdiness, something that I don't think we hear enough about. We hear about resilience, grit, also important terms. But Sturdiness, as you've described it in the job of parenting, really seems to include a lot of verbs, not just nouns and adjectives.
Chapter 3: What is the role of empathy in parenting?
And I'm a huge fan of verbs because biology, and to some extent psychology, um, yes, also psychology is all about verbs. Um, and so the labels often are, um, mysterious, but sturdiness, it, you know, just sends a clear message of, of something that, um, doesn't budge easily.
Um, but then as you described the job of being a parent, having boundaries, and I'd like to drill into that a little bit more, what, how you view boundaries, um, but also empathy, uh, it's not a walled off, um, picture. It's one that, that is semi permeable. Um, also, um,
And I confess I'm a bit obsessed with old school psychoanalytic theory, not as the be all end all of psychology, but it also suggests like this other relationship. Like I'm a person, I have a self, you're a person, you have a self. This is the opposite of codependency where obviously dependency and two people being quote unquote codependent can be healthy in the context of relying on one another.
But as I understand it, when one person has a self and another person doesn't have a self or this notion of merging, not just in romantic relationships, but
child parent relationships you know i'm best friends with my mom or dad is that a good thing i don't know but this notion of other other relationships it's like i'm a self you're a self and we each see each other as another um anyway i i think there's so much to explore here so valuable um you mentioned that boundaries are something that we do and that the requires that the other do nothing can we go a
this notion of boundaries, but like gaslighting narcissism and all the other things that we hear about nowadays, I think is often badly misunderstood. So tell us more about boundaries and how that looks in the action sense of it.
And this is all so connected to what you're saying, that other, other relationship. I'm a person, you're a person. And so many times that's actually is what gets merged. And so my kid gets upset that I say they can't watch another show And a parent really in that moment, it's like, whose feelings are whose? Like they were upset. Was I was upset? A second ago, I thought I should set the boundary.
And now all of a sudden I'm changing my mind. There is this complete role kind of confusion and merger, which is one of the main reasons that kids get actually really scared and escalate their behavior because they don't have a sturdy leader when they really need one, right? Boundaries are what we tell someone we will do and they require the other person to do nothing.
I like this definition for a lot of reasons. I'm just very practical. So it allows me after I set a boundary to like assess, was that a boundary or not, right? Because let's take the TV example. It's whatever time at night my kid has just watched a show and they know they're supposed to watch one show and then, you know, turn off the TV.
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Chapter 4: How can we effectively communicate with deeply feeling kids?
But... I don't believe anyone would say, yeah, it's because they're bad inside, but there is a nature where you're constantly interacting with your kid from that other system, looking at them. don't trust you. I don't trust you. And when you do bad things, I cannot hold on to the punishment. That's why I'm sending you away to your room.
And so if I'm reflecting back to you constantly that you are just your latest behavior, that I don't trust you, that I kind of have to bribe you to do very basic human things, well, our kids form their identity From our reflection of them. And so then this is what really compelled all of this.
I'm like, we're raising generation after generation of kid kind of saying to them, like, you're kind of a bad, untrustworthy kid. And then we wonder why we have such high rates of like massive mental health problems. Well, like, there's some linearity there.
curious about this notion of impingement. I've heard about this idea that when we're young, we're forging life, deciding, do I like the way this tastes or not taste? By the way, I still hate anchovies. I don't need to be asked again to know the answer. But when you're young, we're encouraged to do things like eat your broccoli, taste the anchovy.
And some parents, it seems, are very comfortable with the idea of allowing their children to have their feelings and their wishes. As I always say, the nervous system seems to be divided into yum, yucks, and meh. Mez, I guess the plural will be meh. Yum, yucks, and meh. I mean, it's more complicated than that.
But like with people where you're like, yeah, I really like them or no, something's off there. Like, you know, so it's not that much more nuanced than that. And the brain's got to make decisions after all. Excuse me. So, you know, kids have their yums, yucks, and mehs. And then we've got our ideas about what they need to do in order to progress through life.
often inherited from our parents and hopefully modified by the wonderful work that you're doing and writing about and in your program that we're talking about here. But how much space should we allow for kids to be unimpinged? Like you don't wanna eat what we're eating for dinner? Like, okay, I'm not gonna cook you an entire new dinner, but then I guess like, You might go to bed hungry.
Sounds harsh, right? But the other version is, okay, what would you like for dinner? Well, I prefer, let's say they pick a healthy option. They prefer pasta, not chicken. Okay, we won't do the ice cream chicken thing. Do we do it right? Like how much impingement? I don't want to watch a movie with the family. I want to play in my room.
You know, at some level, you know, I've heard it both ways that impingement is needed for safety and life progression. But there's times when it's it's more subtle than that. It's not about safety and life progression. It's not about going to school or not going to school, homework or no homework. It's about like. Do you wanna come with us to the park? You wanna play at home in your room?
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Chapter 5: How can co-parents align their parenting strategies effectively?
I'd like to reopen that hatch, which is when there's two parents. Maybe they're under the same roof. Maybe they're not. Or let's just say two caretakers. So Kids are pretty darn good at figuring out who to go to for what and how to balance out negative experiences by seeking out the positive reinforcement of the other, sometimes even pitting parents and caretakers against one another.
I mean, it makes children sound diabolical, but adults do it too. It's called gossip. What can co-parents, co-caretakers do to try and align strategies or if necessary to offset some like bad stuff that the other parent might be doing? And in today's landscape where it's about 50% of marriages ended divorce, at least in the U.S.,
you also have the the situation where then their um new significant others come in and now you've extended the landscape to you know sometimes five or six different parents you know yeah my family's my biological family starting to look like the un we've got so many countries and religions and this thing it's kind of nice on the one hand but um lots of divergence of opinion and emotional stance and background so how in the world do we do we wrap our efforts around this yeah so i i
One of the most common questions I get from a parent at Good Inside is like, can you convince my partner? why the way they do things is wrong and, you know, do things more, like, good inside. And so, essentially, I always say, like, yeah, I'm not, for a million reasons, I'm not, like, too interested in taking that phone call.
You know, but... Yeah, I don't get involved in couple disputes either.
You know, but, again, assuming, and you've said this a couple times, which I love, like, I'm assuming the way your kind of partner or, you know, the co-parent does things is not, like, really, like, damaging your child. Obviously, that's, like, really time for an intervention.
No hitting, no emotional abuse.
Exactly. But... You know, even like I'm not a believer of saying a timeout, right? Like I don't believe in timeouts and punishments. I don't think they feel good to kids or parents. And I also don't think they're effective.
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Chapter 6: What are the most common parenting challenges faced during adolescence?
So timeout is not effective?
I don't think so.
OK. And we probably should have closed the hatch on – I have to imagine that the going word in the profession of psychology and raising kids properly is – You never spank them. You never hit them. Yeah. No. Okay. All right. For the record.
So maybe we'll get back there. But just to go on the record, and I think you can sense from my style, not punishing or timeouts doesn't mean you're permissive at all. There's 0% permissive or even softness, I think. Well, there's softness. There's 0% permissive in those moments.
Chapter 7: How does emotional regulation impact parenting and child behavior?
But we can get back there. But let's say your partner does do that or the co-parent, right? I would be the first to say to someone, do I think that that's messing up your kid? I don't. I don't. I really don't.
Especially if, for example, in that situation, let's say I'm divorced and my now ex, you know, I just know that they do timeouts or this and I've tried to talk to them, but, you know, whatever, they're not getting on board with the style and whatever.
To me, what happens is like you have a kid, they come back to you and they're like, you know, Papa gave me a timeout and we don't do that in my house. And my first thing is I call my ex. That's usually what I do. Or the school did this and I called school. I called the ex and I'm like, why did you do that? We don't do that.
What I think is really important, and I actually find it very like relieving as a parent, like what's actually most important is helping my kid understand their experience. Like we center the other person and what they're doing wrong, wrong, instead of centering our kid. we might need to call a parent, the other parent, and say like, hey, it would be really great to get on the same page.
Could we do this course together? That would just be great. You don't have to agree with anything. I think that would be great.
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Chapter 8: What actionable tools can parents use to foster resilience in their children?
But in that moment, what my kid needs actually is more like, wait, that's kind of hard and confusing. So like in our house, when you do something like you scream, I hate you, you know, I intervene in one way. And when you go to your dad's house, he intervenes in a very different way. It's a lot of like,
That's a lot of switching to make sense of, you know, where maybe my kid says, mom never apologizes to me after she yells. And I would call, you know, or maybe it's my own wife. And I'm like, hey, you know the importance of repair. Haven't you listened to all this literature? You know, I would like to have some influence on that.
But what I feel like my kid needs in the moment is more like, tell me what happened. Oh, oh, she yelled at you. And yeah, look, something I know, like I know mom was, I know she had a really stressful day at work. And look, this isn't your responsibility, but you can just know this. Mom has a really hard time apologizing to her, has a really hard time apologizing.
And actually when people have a hard time apologizing, they seem cold and like they don't care. I actually usually just feel so ashamed of what they did. And the reason I'm telling you that is not because you have to take care of her, but just so you know this so wasn't you.
And any time something happens with mom that doesn't feel good and you feel like you can't resolve it, like you can talk to me. And I'm going to get out of role play for a sec, but I think you can see like I'm not throwing – my wife under the bus, like at all. But I'm centering what my kid needs.
What my kid needs going back is they need to process that experience with an adult they feel safe with rather than be in aloneness. And I often picture like this kid on the couch who tells me a problem at their dad's house or at school and I like go off to make a call and I picture them alone being like, Oh, like now I'm alone. Like where's – like I didn't really want you to go do that.
I just wanted you to like listen to me, you know. There might then be a step two, you know, to kind of get on the same page. Or when parents say get on the same page, I think the problem is that we're not like looking at the same page. Forget getting on the same page. We're not even speaking the same language. Like people say to me, my partner won't even watch a video with me.
That I just want to even – even if they disagree. That is the problem. And frankly, that's not a parenting problem. That's also what I'll say to someone. If you say to your partner, look, I've been a member of Good Inside and it's been really helpful and it resonates and you don't have to agree with it, but like, I would love to watch this four minute video.
If your partner says no, that has nothing to do with parenting. That is a core relationship problem that they just don't care to do something that you say is important to you. That's a marriage problem. And I think it's really important. And we talk about this a lot.
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