Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
It's a Lot is recorded on Gadigal land. We pay our respects to the traditional custodians of this land and to elders past and present. We also would love to extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today and remind you all that sovereignty was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. It's a Lot is
I'm so excited for this conversation.
Oh, so am I. We're going to have to try and keep it together, Abby.
Are we going to be able to? I know. I feel like I've got a full face of makeup on and so do you and I think I'll be crying the whole episode. I've already cried even just talking to you before. We've had to have a pause and a glass of water. Guys, it's Antoinette Latoufis here.
Strap in, guys.
I'm so excited for your new book, Women Who Win. It gives me literal goosebumps just then. I'm so proud of you.
Thanks, Abby.
For anyone who doesn't know your story, can you give a quick synopsis? Because I feel like I would give a synopsis and it would be far too long, but you're probably trained on giving, you know, you've probably had to do it a million times going, these are the highlights of what happened and why this book exists.
Sure. Okay. So I have been like a journalist and a presenter and a commentator for many, many years. Some people may have known my previous work, but a lot of people know me as, oh, that chick who got fired from the ABC and sued them. Like as my daughter, who's just out here while we record this has said to me, she's like, mommy, you're the most famous sacked person. So I...
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Chapter 2: What inspired Antoinette Lattouf to write 'Women Who Win'?
All I wanted was an apology and to be put back on air for a couple of days and a small, small compensation payout. In the end, they paid so much more reputationally, financially. Anyway, so to get back to the book.
Well, you gained though reputationally in a very amazing way. So that's the one positive.
I guess so. I did, but God, it was hard. And I talk about what that whole thing about winning is because it was like, I started writing that book because I was having panic attacks. I was having insomnia. I was having paranoia thinking I was being followed in the streets. There was one time when I ran into a local cafe and I was certain this car was trailing me.
That's what happens after you get so many threats. And I was like, is he actually, I think he is following me. Like to this day, I have no idea if he was. But throughout that process, I had also had a guy prosecuted for
harassing me so i had to i also went to the police for so it's all these things simply to try and defend the right as a woman in the public eye to have a heart and to share a fact about children who are being starved in plain sight like it is wild and it's also incredible the level of political uh
kind of veneer this hat over it, considering realistically it's a fair work case. Like the way the media made this whole thing where you were this martyr, this pariah and you were this crazy, out of control political activist, which you obviously do have political opinions and you do voice them and you should be allowed to. But it was as though...
I was controversial. Yes. There was a whole half, you know, and not all, but half the media was like controversial broadcaster, Antoinette Latouf, controversial, blah, blah, blah. It's like controversial. Firstly, I have never, like I shared something on my private Instagram. My broadcasting is. It's impeccable. Like I have never had a bust up, a complaint, a defamation case.
I haven't recorded my colleagues urinating, my female colleagues urinating on her. I haven't done anything. Who's done that? Kyle Sanderlands. One of the segments was and then having to guess whose piss it was. Oh, yes. I haven't done any of that.
I haven't done what Alan Jones did and incite race riots and say, refer to female prime ministers that they should put a sock in it and throw their bodies out to sea. I haven't done any of it. No, but you were made to be controversial by the media. Yeah, by the media and by lobbyists, by pro-Israel lobbyists who wanted me to seem controversial.
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Chapter 3: How did Antoinette's court case against the ABC unfold?
And then our mutual friend would have to be like, So you're worried that someone in court would read out, hey, Antoinette, I've known you for 10 years, I hope you're okay. Like it's wild. And this particular person is quite a high-profile presenter. It's like you were too scared to text a friend.
It shows the level of cowardice in this moment when I think we need people to push back against the madness and you're just seeing sadly in most cases women Pushing back. And we've got the most to lose. We're the easiest to attack and bring down.
Maybe it's that we're kind of used to it or in the position. Like all the women that were supporting you publicly all have either gone through things or are already firm and clear about their political beliefs very publicly. Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, probably. But, you know, you've got to risk something. If you want to be an ally, you have to risk something. You have to be willing to be, you know, I hate that expression, put your head above the parapet. But you have to because if there are heaps and heaps of heads. Hmm. It's harder to target us all. Yes.
Like it's harder to, if there are more of us doing the wild thing of suggesting people have human rights and that women have, like it's not like we're asking for anything crazy but we're being framed as threats. I think one of the biggest things about this and one of the themes in the book is all of these women, and I remember having a moment, I was like, don't fucking underestimate me.
Don't think you're going to take me down and ruin me because there's a playbook here. They'll run a bunch of headlines, go to your employer, paint you as a problem, as controversial. And historically that has happened to women and it either drives them out of the country, it gets them imprisoned, it ruins them professionally.
And I'm like, I know this playbook and I'll be damned if I let that happen to me. And so I had to fucking do every fibre in my body to fight and lean on every woman, Australian woman before me and every lesson because I was like, the narrative is you will crush me and it will send a message to other women to stay in their lane. And I'm like, I'll be fucking damned.
I've got daughters and I'll be damned if this is the lesson, that to be latoofed. means that you get quashed and that you go away. You get squashed like a bug, an inconsequential nuisance. And I'd be like, you fucked with the wrong woman. You fucked with the wrong bug. Wrong bug! I'm a strong poisonous bug.
Yeah, I'll spin back. Even though you obviously had the point of going, I've won no matter what, did you have moments ā During the trial where you were just certain, nah, I've lost everything. And I don't even mean I've lost the case.
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Chapter 4: What challenges do women face when speaking out in public?
Oh, yeah. So many times. Like I think about Lisa Wilkinson with this recent quote unquote win that the Bruce Lerman defamation trials are now done. And I think about how people say even though Brittany Higgins has now been effectively bankrupted.
Wow.
from defamation cases against her as well, people go, oh, well, you know, but Bruce Lerman losing is actually a win and I don't see that as a win at all. I see that as years and years of trauma for everyone involved.
Exactly. That's why the idea of winning is so fraught and there were times throughout it when, you know, I often publicly put on this kind of like stoic face And I am strong and I'll own it. I'm strong. But even the strongest of us will waver and we're still petrified.
There were so many moments where I was petrified and there were so many moments where I thought I will never recover from this emotionally, psychologically. So often I'm out in public places and the first thing I do is I look for exit signs. I'm so paranoid in public. And I thought my career will never recover.
I worried about neglecting my family, them seeing me cry and being exposed to too much at a young age, my girls. And there were so many times where I thought this is going to ruin me. I'll never be the same person again. And I'm not the same person.
For better or do you think it's been because I also don't want to do this bullshit. I don't know.
Oh, and everything happens for a reason because these things are awful. I don't know if I'm for the better, but I do know that I would do it again. Because it was too important. It was too important for accountability of our public broadcaster. It's too important why we continue to watch a live stream genocide. And, you know, at this moment it's just extending to my home country, Lebanon.
The bombing and the killing and the land grab is extending to Lebanon. And so I'm thinking in this time I know that I would never regret A, defending myself, defending employee rights, but also having the, I can't even believe it's gumption, to say, hey. War crimes, not cool. Yeah. Killing journalists, not cool. It's pretty basic stuff.
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Chapter 5: How does Antoinette connect her story to historical women in Australia?
I mean, I didn't know that I would ever recover from it, bounce back, have a career. I just accepted that it might all go because that was the path, unfortunately, some of these women had. There were a couple of examples where obviously they've passed away, so I didn't get to interview them, but I documented their journeys.
Some were banished, like overseas, and then later had a suburb named after them. Whew. Vita Goldstein was one of them. Okay, why was she banished? So she was a really strong anti-war voice, anti-conscription, and so she started like a peace corporation for women. She had a women's magazine published in a women's newspaper which got raided by the police for her to stop doing
stop publishing what she was publishing because there was going to be a referendum about conscription and she was like, choose right over might, as in like choose the morally conscious thing to do and not the, you know, don't choose war.
And then she was, and the way she was represented in the media, so what I do, I go through a lot of newspaper archives and I look at the way these women were represented in the media. It's fucking horrible. A lot of them, it's horrible. And literally this woman now has... A suburb named after her. She has a bench, like a commemorative bench after her.
She also has, there's an organisation that is encouraging more women to join politics. There's a fund for more women to join politics in her name.
So this woman who was essentially ostracised from other women's movements because at one point other women turned against her, intimidated to shut down her newspaper and the government's want of war and conscription was too great that she ended up moving overseas. And then later it's like, oh, here, here's some money to join politics and here's a freaking suburb and here's a bench you can sit on.
So she's definitely, you know, helped women to come after her, but she suffered enormously.
It's so... It's the definition of bittersweet. It sounds like a bit of a clichƩ to say, but all of these stories have such extremes in all of them.
Yeah.
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Chapter 6: What lessons did Antoinette learn from the women she researched?
But was that making you more scared because there's more of a target on your back because now it's, oh, the name Antoinette Latouf is recognisable.
Yeah, it's a double-edged sword. It fuelled me in moments. It petrified me in others. It made me feel very naked and vulnerable. And I continued to have this really fraught relationship with it because I And I write this in my book. I didn't want to be the first.
I would happily be like the fifth or the sixth, you know, towards the front but not the face of it, not the target, not the one that has to figure it all out. You know, people are like, oh, but a trailblazer. I'm like a trailblazer usually has to walk through a path of fire and you don't know how burnt you're going to get. You don't know if you're going to survive it. Yeah.
I don't necessarily know if I recommend it to everybody. No.
And then it also comes with a responsibility of people come up to me whether I'm in, you know, I could be in Woolies doing my groceries and they're crying and so many people are so worried and they're so hurt and they're not finding any solace in our leaders and they're not finding things improving and they feel scared and like worried about the future and they'll just cry and hug me, which is, and I'm like,
I don't know how to carry that. Yes, how do you hold that? I don't know how to hold. I don't know. And then that puts also expectation on me, and I think that that's probably part of the reason why I've kept going. I wrote a book. I launched Et Media with Jan Fran, who I know you've had on the pod, because people then going, oh, did they ruin her? Is she going to retreat?
Where is she going to go? And so I feel part of the win is to keep going to show that ā Turning up is also part of the win. Continuing to speak is also part of the win. But God, it is hard some days. And I'm sure you feel it too, Abby. Yeah. Because I'm sure a lot of people turn to you and go, you know, you inspire me, you inspire my daughter. It's amazing. But it's a lot to carry.
It's at a cost. And I think when people say things like that to me, it just brings me back to whatever they're talking about. the awful parts for me personally. Saying it triggers me is a far too extreme word, I think. But, you know, for example, if you go to Woolies today, the case has been done for a while. You've got your media company. You've got a book.
There are all these things that you have created to continue on. But to some people, and they're being lovely.
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Chapter 7: How has Antoinette's personal life been impacted by her public battles?
Speaking of going backwards. Yeah.
Because we are going backwards. What are you noticing as someone who's so locked into media, who is my media expert, you and Jen Fran.
I love to hear it.
Expansive brain. I go, you and Antoinette together, it's crazy. It's a whole universe in there. What are you noticing? What are you worried about? And what are the potentials for it to swing back towards a bit more normalcy?
Some things that are giving me heart, obviously it's been worrying to see the polls about One Nation. It's been worrying to see some early state election results and we'll see how that pans out. I'd like to think, given that we have compulsory voting and that younger people are
or millennials now have the largest amount of voters, like we're the voting bloc, not baby boomers, which were for so long. And so even if they're in regional areas or in Queensland or something where there might be popularity for far-right groups, I'm hopeful that... Those in city centres or those in the millennial age group and even younger people tend to be less extreme.
Well, at least less far right. So I'm watching that and a little bit worried. And I thought the young people, come on, young people, show up. But really, like, fucking show up. We need them to show up, please.
Yeah.
And that's not to discount the fact that there are groups like, you know, Advance Australia and other populist groups that are trying to appeal to young men in particular. So that's my kind of little niggling worry. Seeing the proliferation of independent media platforms Also, that's something that we've not seen in this way at this kind of scale before.
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Chapter 8: What does Antoinette believe about the future of women in media?
But simultaneously then what's happening is there's kind of a dehumanisation or a caricature of you as this strong fighting woman and I'm going to fight, which you are.
Yeah.
You're also a person.
Yeah.
That is, as you were saying, having to drink to be able to go to sleep.
Yeah. Running into cafes thinking this red car is following me.
Yes. And being in fear of your life and the safety of your family, that has a real, real impact. So I'm so, so glad you wrote this specific book.
Yeah, thank you. I just wanted to celebrate and I wanted to pay a debt to women who do win but also women who suffer because we learn from their victories but we also learn from their pain.
And I learned a lot from, I know this sounds very sadistic, but I learned a lot from their pain and sitting with the pain and learning about pain and being driven by it as well because it is not easy and it is not fair but it doesn't mean that it's not right and it's not possible.
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