The highly anticipated federal trial against Sean "Diddy" Combs has begun. The hip-hop mogul is facing charges of racketeering and sex trafficking, and could be sentenced to life in prison if found guilty. So why is his attorney, Marc Agnifilo, telling the court they're going to "take the position that there was mutual violence" in his relationship with the singer Cassie Ventura?Brittany is joined by author Beverly Gooden and Loyola University law professor Laurie Levenson to discuss why "mutual abuse" can often come up in celebrity trials and why the concept itself is inherently flawed.Listen to Brittany's past coverage of Diddy by clicking here.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
Chapter 1: Who is Sean 'Diddy' Combs and what charges is he facing?
No way! Oh, my goodness. Lori, that's so major. Oh, my goodness. A celebrity. Wow. Oh, my gosh. Well, I'll tell you what. Right now, out in the world, we have a courtroom drama that I wish I could say was fiction with a criminal case against Sean Combs beginning this week. Sean Combs, a.k.a.
Diddy, is a music mogul and business executive known for his Bad Boy Entertainment music label and his associations with various celebrities in Hollywood. And now he's facing federal charges of sex trafficking and racketeering. One of Diddy's primary accusers is the R&B singer Cassie Ventura, with whom he had an on and off relationship for over a decade.
And she claims that she went through years of abuse during their relationship, which ended in 2018. Diddy pleaded not guilty to all charges. Federal prosecutors have alluded to a trove of evidence against him, including video documentation, surveillance footage, witness testimony, firearms, drugs, and more, suggesting that he wasn't following the law.
So it caught my attention when I read a Washington Post article quoting defense attorney Mark Agnifilo, saying there was hitting on both sides and we're going to take the position that there was mutual violence in the relationship. This concept, often referred to as, quote, mutual violence or mutual abuse, suggests that both parties engaged in abusive behavior.
And it might sound familiar to anyone who has followed celebrity abuse trials in the past. So I wanted to talk to Bev and Lori to understand what is mutual abuse in a legal context? Where have we seen this tactic used before? And could this strategy really help Diddy avoid a potential life sentence in federal prison?
Well, in the legal case right now, Sean Diddy Combs is a defendant in a federal racketeering case. And that's a really serious case. And he is charged with running a criminal enterprise that involves sex trafficking, bribery, kidnapping, assault, a range of activity where basically he would allegedly use women. He would pay them off in order to have his freak off parties.
But it wasn't mutual abuse. Yeah, this idea of mutual abuse is something that I've seen floated by Diddy's legal team as a potential strategy. It was a part of their opening statement. Bev, could you define what mutual abuse could mean to Diddy's team?
Yeah, mutual abuse in this context is basically saying that Diddy and his partner or Diddy and the people involved in the situation were abusive toward each other, allegedly. And I think it's important to clarify that mutual abuse is not a true concept. Abuse is about a pattern of behavior designed to maintain control over another person. And so even if both people engage in harmful behaviors.
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Chapter 2: What does 'mutual abuse' mean in the context of Diddy's trial?
One is typically the abuser controlling the situation. I find that many people don't fully understand that abuse is about power. It's about control, manipulation, not just physical violence or aggression. So the focus should always be on understanding the context and power dynamics that are at play.
As our legal expert, Lori, is mutual abuse a viable defense strategy?
No, it's actually not a legal defense. It's sort of a phrase to say, oh, well, they both agree to this behavior and therefore where's the harm? And I think as Bev previewed, there's a lot of harm and people don't always agree. They feel pressured to agree. So you won't find in the law books a mutual abuse defense.
What you'll see are defendants arguing, well, I really thought that the victim was consenting because they were doing it to me and therefore I could do it to them. It is not okay in the criminal law world to to abuse somebody and then say, well, they're at fault too.
Okay. Okay. So Lori, you're saying that mutual abuse is not really a legal defense strategy. And Bev, you described mutual abuse as not even like a true concept in terms of how patterns of abuse work. So I wonder, Bev, why is it so easy for many people to believe that mutual abuse is a thing?
Yeah, I find that what often gets labeled as mutual abuse is more accurately a trauma response. And so the science shows that being in an abusive relationship literally rewires your brain. It changes your brain chemistry. That's what PTSD is. You start living in survival mode and your body and mind adjusts. to that constant threat.
So what people see from the outside looking in is, yeah, you might act defensive. You might lash out. You might shut down. And so it looks like there is harm going both ways. But it's not because you're trying to control anyone. It's because you're trying to cope. You're trying to stay safe. It's your nervous system literally doing what it was trained to do under pressure.
The thing that I always say is that trauma responses can cause harm. And I think that's what the public is seeing when they see or when they hear about even someone lashing back or lashing out at the abusive partner. But that's not the same thing as being abusive. Harm is not abuse. Conflict is not abuse. Abuse is about power and control. It is a pattern, not just messy behavior on both sides.
It frustrates me because I think survivors really deserve a society that can tell the difference between the two.
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Chapter 3: Is 'mutual abuse' a valid legal defense strategy?
You know, I find it interesting that Diddy's defense team is citing mutual abuse as part of their defense strategy because in doing so, they have to concede that he took part in abusive behavior on some level. So, Lori, why might the defense see this as a beneficial strategy?
Well, I think the defense here is just trying to reframe this whole case as this other world that the jury might not be familiar with, where people engage in these types of sexual activities and even abusive activities, and that the government has just put them on trial for being different. The prosecutors have to remind them that this case is about real harm, harm to victims.
And victims, frankly, even if they're pressured, they can't give away their well-being, their physical well-being. The law is there to protect them. So I think the defense here is trying to reframe this as, gee, that's just how the world of rock and roll works. And these people wanted to be part of it. So they're not truly victims.
Coming up, why it can be so hard for us to recognize abusive behavior in the people we look up to.
We often have a hard time believing that someone we hold in high esteem could be abusive. That and more after this quick break.
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Chapter 4: Why is the concept of 'mutual abuse' misleading in abuse cases?
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You know, I remember seeing the Amber Heard and Johnny Depp trial unfold on television, across social media, newspapers and magazines, and seeing a similar kind of reframe in mutual abuse come up a lot. One of Diddy's primary accusers is the R&B singer Cassie Ventura, with whom he had an on-and-off relationship for over a decade.
And she claims that she went through years of abuse during their relationship, which ended in 2018. Critics of Cassie and other women who have alleged similar abuse in their relationships, they often ask, why would this person stay in the relationship so long? Bev, could you help us understand why domestic violence situations can be so difficult to escape from?
Yeah, the dynamics of abuse are really complex. I think one of the things I always talk about is that we're talking about human hearts here and we're talking about human hearts in distress. You know, I think just bringing it back to that really basic level, things can be confusing. You may want your partner to change or you think you can change them.
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Chapter 5: Why might Diddy's defense team use 'mutual abuse' in their strategy?
As we've seen happen many times before, whether it was the OJ Simpson case or the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial, or even in situations where things didn't necessarily escalate to a trial, like in the case of Chris Brown and Rihanna back in the 2000s. These...
very public allegations of domestic violence or abusive situations that we as the public become aware of later, they generate so much conversation on social media, in barbershops, beauty salons, group chats, all the time. I find that the way that these cases are framed or covered really affects the way that everyday people understand abuse and talk about it with each other.
I'd love to hear from both of you on this. How do you see the possible reverberations of this mutual abuse strategy rippling outward into how everyday people think about abuse? Lori, I'd love to hear from you first on this.
Well, that's such a great question and why this case is really important. because it's not just what's happening with Combs and his close associates. It's going to be how people think about relationships in all sorts of industries. So this is a case that gets the public to take a look at what is okay in and how we are treated. Because there'll be people saying, why did she stay with Combs?
Weren't they paid? Isn't that something that they wanted to happen? To really understand, no, it is still coercive, even if somebody finally just goes along with it because they've given up.
Yeah, something Lori said earlier that I think is really important is that the defense is banking on the fact that the rest of us may not understand the type of relationship that they have. And kink is not abuse, right? Like if you're in a relationship that participates in kink, then there is enthusiastic consent involved. From all parties.
So we don't have to understand the details of these relationships to know that consent was not obtained here and consent should never be implied. Right. And so when it comes to the public's reaction and how this works. trickles down into the public, I find this sort of thing thrives where there is love or admiration involved, whether that's Diddy or your cousin, a family member or a friend.
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Chapter 6: Why is it difficult for people to recognize abuse in celebrities?
We often have a hard time believing that someone we hold in high esteem could be abusive, that the same hands that create art can also create terror. That's really hard to sit with. And I empathize with people who are working through that because I've been there.
And I think a healthier way to deal with that hurt and confusion is to accept that someone can be good to you and still hurt someone else.
Apropos to what you were saying, we are in sort of this cycle where the public thinks they know somebody because that person's a star. And we saw that with OJ. And even though OJ was acquitted of the murders, it did come out in the trial that he was a serial abuser. They had been called out the police eight times. Wow. to deal with his abuse. And I don't think the public knew that about OJ.
And I don't think the public wanted to believe that about OJ.
And it's OK to feel shocked and disappointed or even conflicted. I think that's OK. But for me, it helps to remove the language of good and bad when discussing people holistically and directly address the action. You are a person who made choices. And your choices were violent. And that violence has consequences. You being good or bad is irrelevant to me. I'm okay with duality.
I'm not okay with abuse. And it's the abuse that needs to be named and confronted.
Wow. You both have given me so much to think about with this conversation. And like I said, regardless of what happens in the courtroom, regardless what the outcome of this trial is or what the jury decides, they always coincide with big swells in conversation about very difficult topics. And so I really appreciate you both bringing so much to this conversation.
I think it's what a lot of people need to hear. So thank you both so much. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much. That was author Beverly Gooden and Loyola University law professor Lori Levinson. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening.
Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Bridges. This episode was edited by Nina Pathak. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce.
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