Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
0818 715 815. This is LiveLine on RTE Radio 1.
Sponsored by Harry Currie. Revamp your home this May with our fresh new curtain and bedding designs. Discover comfort and style for every room. Good afternoon. You are very welcome to LiveLine. 51551 is the text number. You can get in touch by email, liveline.rte.ie. Or as always, give me a call on 0818 715 815. And not yesterday, but the previous Sunday, Dublin got a new rose.
Suad Moga was crowned the Dublin Rose and will go on to represent the capital in Dublin. a little bit later in the year, in August to be precise. Suad, it's great to talk to you and thanks for taking the time. Can you give me some examples of some of the things that have been said to you online since you became Dublin Rose?
Yeah, well, thanks for having me, first of all. It's not every day you're on the radio on your lunch break. So very exciting. It's just been a lot of basically you're not Irish. I think that's kind of been the general consensus on the socials. And, you know, a lot of mentions about skin tone, religion and, you know, a lot of people saying, oh, well, she's no Irish heritage. She's not born here.
And yeah, just along those lines.
Where were you born?
I was born in Sligo.
I don't think that's what they mean, though, is it?
No, I think they kind of just, it is a bit ignorant. And, you know, they aren't really reading the information. They're just assuming that, you know, oh, she was born somewhere else. But I'm like, if you actually read the bio, you'd see I was born in Ireland, born and raised in Ireland, mind you.
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Chapter 2: What does being the Dublin Rose mean to Suad Mooge?
And, you know, it's kind of seemed like it was it was OK, quiet for the first day. And then, boom, it just went mad overnight.
Okay, so it wasn't instant. It wasn't like the moment it was announced. It took a little while to catch fire.
To reach the FYPs, yeah.
And so the FYP for people who don't know, the For Your Page, this is kind of how it ended up then getting recommended to certain people who would take an interest maybe in posting underneath it. Yeah. Is there any part of you that... feels reluctant to put yourself forward for things like this, knowing that this is the inevitable outcome.
No, absolutely not. Never. If anything, I actually take pride in going forward for things like this, considering the reaction that I've received, like change is needed. And I'm just grateful to be given the opportunity to be at the forefront of this and to represent other communities and to show girls who kind of see themselves within me that you can go for this.
This is open to you and there's no reason why not. You can go for this. So, no, I've never been reserved to go for things like this.
Given the level of it, I don't expect you to start, you know, reading through one comment after another.
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Chapter 3: How has Suad dealt with online racist comments since her crowning?
But were there any that made you stop in your tracks and thought, no, that's beyond the pale? That's... That's more than I'm used to.
There's been a lot of things written about where I was born. Everyone just assumed, no, she's born there, she's born here. They actually haven't looked into the competition and, you know, read the bio, like I said. They're just running on a hate train without actually reading anything and just realizing, oh, she was actually born in Sligo.
And even if people are correcting them saying, oh, she was actually born in Sligo, they just completely disregard it and say, well, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
And so they're confusing your parents' heritage with where you were born primarily, is it?
Yeah, absolutely. But I don't even think it's about that. Even though I could specify to them all I want, you know, I was born in Sligo, raised in Dublin, did everything in Dublin, but it doesn't matter to them. I don't think they're considering that at all.
How does that make you feel that no matter what you do, you'll never be Irish in their eyes?
You know, it's tough, but I will say, you know, I've been raised by a very strong household of women and I'm not one to let other people's opinions phase me and, you know, change my mind. I know I'm Irish and I know myself. I don't have to prove to anyone how Irish I am. So I'm very confident and I'm very secure in that fact. And again, it is a very small group of people who are just very loud.
There has been so much positive outcome for this and a lot of positive feedback that we've received from this. So I know that it's just a very small group. Like that's just reminding myself, this does not represent Ireland. This does not represent people's opinions. It's just a very small, loud group of people with a lot of time on their hands and just putting a lot of hate out there.
But as long as I know myself that I'm Irish, I'm very confident and secure in that fact.
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Chapter 4: How does Suad feel about her identity as an Irish person of color?
So I am very much a target. But, you know, it's just kind of made me on my guard a bit more in town because unfortunately, I do know people who've gotten attacked from, you know, for example, they might get their head scars ripped off or, you know, during the riots two years ago, the riots in town. I remember we were at football training and we quickly had to leg it home.
We went to Ratmines and we were on guard. We couldn't get any taxis through town. And, you know, we were just kind of walking the whole way through town trying to avoid those riots because we were easy targets during those times. So, yeah, it's just just made you a bit more hyper aware.
I couldn't be more at the other end of the spectrum. I'm quite middle aged Irish and male. And so I have that privilege of of never having to think about these things. I mean, I'm going to walk through town wherever I want. Yeah. Walk down an alley during the night and not think who might be down there or whatever. It's just a shorter way home.
And also never having to think about it and never having to even acknowledge that privilege. What types of things do you not do? Are there things you don't do? You know, is there times you won't get on public transport?
Probably like late at night, just alone. A lot of these things is like alone. So I wouldn't really late at night or if I do, you know, you're kind of sitting there up near the front. You're kind of just like walking through the Lewis or the bus. It is now on the bus. I haven't experienced anything and I haven't for a very long time because obviously I do drive now.
But obviously when you're younger and you're in college and stuff like that. You kind of just, you know, you try your best to buddy up and not be out too late alone. Just kind of those little things. And, you know, just walk out in town. You know, sometimes you might not put your headphones on full blast. You know, you kind of one ear in, you know, just kind of looking around.
Sorry to cut across. Was there a time you remember it starting? I guess, you know, It might be rare that a child would get this, you know, even if people do think negatively about them because of their skin colour or what they're wearing or their obvious ethnic background. But they wouldn't say it.
And then I guess you become a young woman or maybe a teenager and you probably cross a Rubicon in someone's mind that they think I'm going to say it to this person now that they should go back where they came from. Can you remember it starting?
Oh, probably as early as like, I want to say like 12. Like definitely even when you're young kids and that was from other young kids. Like I remember being called like black monkey and all these are like terrible stuff from other kids, which was insane. But yeah, from a very young age, you're kind of made known, you know, you are different.
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Chapter 5: What role does social media play in the spread of hate?
You know, people born here, also people who have come in and are contributing as migrants to the economy or holding up the health service. These people that are making these comments are stupid. They're ignorant. If something happens, one of them or their grandmother or their... Who's the carers? Who's the hospital staff that they are against?
But I also think the government hasn't taken it seriously enough because there have been on your own programme, you spoke to that lovely young man, Toby, I think. There's been numerous other attacks on... and it gives justification.
People say, oh, you know, I wouldn't be racist, but that feeds into justification for attacks, both verbal and physical, and making somebody feel... You know, join the real world. We're a multicultural society. It's just so sad that someone like that young woman... has to be on the end of this experience.
And I would know throughout my life from the group Harmony, from friends, you know, people that have left here because they couldn't cope with that. I mean, a lot of it, she sounds very resilient, but it must get, life is hard enough without adding this and giving these right-wing yahoos entitlement and no control.
And the government are letting migrants and people be scapegoated for the problems of society. They're letting talk go on that, oh, it's the cause of homelessness, it's the cause of this. You know, why aren't we teaching young children all about difference? And why is it seen as negative rather than positive? It would be a very dull place if it wasn't. Sorry for going on so long.
No, Marion, God, don't be sorry at all. It's been really fascinating. And Toby O'Mattezo was... who we spoke to a few weeks ago. He was in Limerick on his way to a cultural event that he was partly organising when he was attacked. That's the young man you made reference to. But when your young fella got into the car back in the 80s and asked, is black bad? How did you explain it to him?
Well, I knew then that society would define his identity. So I suppose I approached it from a number of, you know, saying, no, not at all, they're just silly people. I mean, it also has to be age appropriate. But also to give him a sense of identity, which was partly why when a man called Tony French approached me, who was in an intercultural family as well,
And another, Jude Hughes, who's a black Irish man who's been on the radio a number of times. And another man, we got together to form this group called Harmony, which was a family organisation, had activities for children to bring them together. So they weren't, as in those days, the only black child in the class. Now, subsequently, we became very, we campaigned for legislation.
And of course, legislation is only useful if it's applied. And I think that needs to be stronger. But I just feel the scapegoat.
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Chapter 6: What support has Suad received from the community?
But immediately, you know, you hear people saying things like, can they get beyond the person's colour? Why should anybody need to get beyond anyone's colour? We're all human beings. You know, we all have the same needs. And also the whole talk around asylum seekers and refugees, we're a very small percentage of people. And surely we have a human... responsibility to help people.
It's a matter of chance where you're bored. But again, the government allows that to become disproportionate in terms of statistics. I'm not saying, I mean, I think everyone has a right to a peaceful life. And in the West, we're actually contributing through arms agreements and trade agreements to people seeking to leave their countries.
But I suppose why I asked the question, Marion, is, you know, there's certain things that you'll just shield your kids from. But at the same time. I guess that option isn't entirely available to you when you know that this isn't the only time it's going to happen to him. Do you know what I mean?
You've got to... Oh, absolutely not.
Yeah, so how do you manage that as a parent having to kind of almost seek to kind of dismiss what was said in school, but in a way... And maybe it doesn't happen when he's four and he sits into the back of the car. Maybe it's because he's a bit older. But, you know, in a way, teach him. But at the same time,
you know, the world is going to see you as black and they're going to treat you as black, certain people. And that means something than being seen and treated as white in Ireland. And here's how you've got to deal with it. Or, you know, how do you deal with that?
I think some parents, you know, I may have been even guilty myself, you try to dismiss it or reduce it. I think you have to acknowledge it. You have to be there to say, I support you. But you do also have to give the child a good sense of their identity. And there's other people that it is stupid. And being seen as black should not be seen as a negative thing.
You know, there's rich cultural heritage there. both in the Irish side and the Ghanaian side, which you need to bring into a child's life or to see, as we did in Harmony, that, you know, I think role models are an important thing as well to see people in positions, in jobs. And I think, thankfully, there's a lot of... that now around.
Well, listen, maybe people have another role model in Suad. Listen, Marion, stay with us and Suad, you too and everybody else waiting on the line because lots of people are getting in touch. 51551 to drop me a text.
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Chapter 7: How do Suad's experiences reflect broader societal issues?
you know, personal, societal and institutional levels. I've learned a lot, and in fact, it set me on a course. But I did, and I still would have hoped, and I think I'm the eternal optimist, you know, that people would just come to their senses. And people who don't necessarily have a personal connection with somebody...
but that they would see it as for society's sake, they need to take a stand on it as well and speak out because staying silent doesn't help at all. You know, so it's good to hear people coming on, talking, that man that was talking about his three daughters and making that empathy connection, you know, that if it was my family or if this was happening or why is it happening?
But, you know, I'm a bit low today and sad and frustrated and angry because, you know, it's just going on. And we have to have hope and we have to have hope in people's shared humanity.
Was it tough on you, Marion, back then, too? I mean, you were not in a big group to have a half Ghanaian child.
No, well, the Harmony Group certainly provided a huge amount of support. I have lifelong friends going back to that time. You know, even people that have emigrated, I've visited them in Vancouver and other places. And when they come back to Ireland, we meet up. I've friends here, you know, who would have been part. And some of the children who were part of the Harmony Group stay in touch.
So certainly I'd be one for... you know, talk to people who will understand. And you need to talk to people who will, even if they don't actually understand, will listen. I won't immediately jump in with some of the rhetoric, you know, just too many people are off his Irishness. You know, get a life. Join the real world.
And make Ireland all... And there are people so committed to Ireland who, you know, I know doctors, I know, who have given so much and yet maybe on the way to or from work are receiving this, you know, verbal and sometimes physical abuse or are living in fear. I've known families as well. So it's... It's just soul-destroying, actually.
Yeah. Imagine putting in a 12-hour shift in an emergency department and then walking out the door to be told to go home where you came from or something like that. Listen, Bridean McDonagh is on the line as well. Bridean, I know you've been listening to the conversation and Marion made the point that, you know, it needs to be called out. Do you agree?
Yeah, I see. Hi, CiarƔn. And I just want to offer... I'm kind of nervous, but I just want to offer my solidarity to the lad. And like Marion, I'm kind of upset and angry at who we are and at racism in our communities. I'm from the Gaeltacht, CiarƔn. I've seen racism here. Looking out at the Atlantic, we couldn't be further west. And I feel like it's everywhere and it's no longer okay just...
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