Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
0818 715 815. This is LiveLine on RTE Radio 1.
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Yes, good afternoon. You are very welcome to LiveLine. 51551 is the number for your text. You can send me an email, LiveLine at rte.ier. As always, give me a call on 0818 715 815. It is... I can't believe it, over three decades, isn't it, since sexual assault allegations were first made against Michael Jackson.
And at the moment, Michael, the biopic that tells the story of his rise to fame, is doing absolute mega numbers at the box office. Here in Ireland, well over two and a half million, which is a lot of money for a movie to make in Ireland over a few days. And all around the world, it is absolutely crazy. raking it in. So much so that Michael Jackson's songs find themselves back in the charts.
Three of his albums are amongst the top 10 albums in this country at the moment. And three of his singles are amongst the top 30 singles in this country at the moment. And like the box office numbers, that's replicated all over the world. Dan Reed is on the line. Dan... Directed and produced Leaving Neverland, the 2019 documentary television film. Dan, have you seen Michael?
I have. I went to watch it the other day with my son.
Well, what did you think?
Well, it's obviously a great jukebox movie for people who love Michael Jackson's music. But it portrays his interest in children as something innocent and eccentric and And we know that that wasn't the case and that, in fact, his interest in children was sinister. And so I came away from the movie feeling slightly sickened.
So for people who haven't seen it, and lots have, obviously, I mean, despite it not being a hit with the critics, it seems to be a hit with a lot of the public. Does it hint at any of the allegations that were made or how does it deal with them?
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Chapter 2: What is the significance of Michael Jackson's legacy in the new biopic?
And no one would countenance a movie about Sir Jimmy Savile that celebrated his life of charity. And so, you know, the makers of the Michael biopic, which include the estate which inherited his, which manages his fortune in his catalogue,
They set out, and I know this, to make a film that would be, if you like, the retort or the answer, the rebuttal to my documentary, which went out in 2019, called Leaving Neverland, which is about these two young lads who reveal that they've been abused, sexually abused as a seven-year-old and a ten-year-old, respectively, by Michael Jackson.
They set out to create this sort of counter film, and they failed. They couldn't make it stick. And so instead, they've come up with this jukebox movie that sort of stops before the difficult bit. And it seems like a misrepresentation of the truth.
There'll be people who will go along to the movie and enjoy the music who will agree with everything in your documentary. And they separate the dancer from the dance to a degree. We might talk about that in a moment because that's an interesting one as well. How people manage that and how some people that's permissible for and not others. But there'll be others listening to this and...
what they'll be saying is, hold on, you know, never convicted in a court of law. He was acquitted the one time he was actually charged. And they'll take the view of the Jackson estate, I think, which is that, you know, this is... kind of desperate money grabbing by different people over the years.
There's a couple of things to be said about the desperate money grabbing. The only desperate money grabbing that's going on is the Jackson estate and the Jackson family desperately grabbing the money to be made from the exploitation of Michael Jackson's works, right? That's where the money is being made. The protagonists in my 2019 documentary have never made a penny
from their claims that they made against jackson it's been 13 years now since they filed their claims in a court and it's been obviously seven years since leaving neverland came out they haven't made a penny so so that's uh you know uh um not true about the money um the fact that he was acquitted well he was acquitted partly on the on the thanks to the
performance on the witness stand of Wade Robson, who is one of the guys in my film, who lied on the stand in defense of Jackson and was a key piece of testimony in Jackson's favor. And then he's obviously now completely changed his story. And that is really the subject of Leaving Neverland is how people
managed to leave their predators, their abusers, and come out and, you know, face the truth, which was very difficult for him. And lastly, I think, look, no one, including Jackson himself, denies that he spent the night behind a locked door, many, many nights, countless nights, with little boys who were not his children. And my question is to the people who don't think he
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Chapter 3: How does the biopic portray Michael Jackson's childhood and rise to fame?
He hurt a lot of children. As a performer, as an entertainer, he has a timeless appeal to a huge audience worldwide. I've never advocated cancelling him or banning him. I just think people need to accept both facts.
Has there been renewed pushback on you given he's in the headlines again?
Well, we've had, you know, at the time when Leaving Level 9 first came out in 2019, we had all these death threats and People saying they do dreadful things to my kids and my family and all that. And that's standard for the Jackson fans, really. They're a nasty lot. Some of them, not all of them, but some of them are a nasty lot. And they treat Jackson like a god.
And so they treat me like a blasphemer who, you know, should be sort of put to death in the nastiest possible way. That was shocking. I don't mind telling you. I've dealt with some very nasty people in my documentary career. The Jackson fan base are the nastiest of the lot. Um, but, and, and, you know, some of that has come back.
We've been receiving emails, you know, saying disobliging things about my late mother, bless her and my children. Um, so that's not very welcome. And clearly there's a seam of real nastiness, which matches, you know, the nastiness of the man himself who, um,
who felt he was, you know, beyond the law, who felt he could do whatever he wanted, and that included using children for his sexual gratification. And, you know, it's a difficult truth to hold in your head when you're listening to Billie Jean or enjoying the guy's dancing. He was an amazing entertainer.
But unfortunately, that's the complicated situation that we live in when we look at Michael Jackson and we consider how to interpret this new movie, which is a huge success.
0818715815, as I said at the outset, is the number if people want to give me a call. Send an email at liveline at rte.ie and Liam Sheehan is on the line. Liam, people will remember that after he was acquitted in 2005, Michael Jackson, I think he spent time in Bahrain and then he spent time here in Ireland. He was living in Cork and that's where you met him, is that right? That's correct, yeah.
I first met him in 2006 when he came here in Cork where he resided in Blackwater Castle, his first stop here in Ireland.
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Chapter 4: What critical themes are addressed regarding Michael Jackson's relationships with children?
How often did he ask you down to the castle to entertain?
Well, I suppose, basically, I was only there, supposed to be there for one night, for a couple of hours. But, you know... So you stayed there? I stay there, yeah. I stay there with him, yeah. So I got to kind of see, not that I was in contact with him every day, but you get to see what he was doing and what he enjoyed and the food that he enjoyed and that, which was nice to see, you know.
But of course, you know, at that time I had signed a confidentiality clause, so I didn't interfere too much with anything to do with him, really, you know.
What kind of person was he? How would you have described him at the time?
I've always described him, CiarƔn, as a real gentle guy, a real gentle man, you know, very quiet in himself. I also saw that he was a great dad to his kids. The kids absolutely adored him. They loved him, you know, they were very proud of him. And like Paris, you say things to me about him and, you know, I realised that they were actually mad about him, to be honest with you.
Were you mindful of the fact that he had just been acquitted of sexual abuse at the time against, was it Jason Irvizo was that case?
Yeah, I was very mindful of that, yeah. I was very mindful of that. But you know what? It really didn't bother me a whole lot because I wasn't 100% sure of myself. No one can ever say that he was completely innocent because we just don't know. But looking at him with other kids, like the owner's kids and stuff like that, he was really a child at heart. He was a total child at heart.
And he enjoyed the company of children. And I know now it's probably difficult to say that, but he enjoyed that. And he was always... you know, I think, worried about the way the world was going for children and that, you know?
But it never gave you pause for thought. You never thought, maybe I shouldn't be here. I'm kind of, what did the, it gives you the ick, is what people say about certain things. Maybe that's kind of trivialising it, describing it that way. But you know what I mean?
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Chapter 5: How does the film handle the allegations against Michael Jackson?
Yeah.
He was here, I think he was here, he was escaping here to Ireland and he was trying to enjoy the privacy of Ireland for as long as he could with his children. And he was leaving them to play with sandcastles and things they've never done before, play hide and go seek in the woods and things that they've never done before. He seemed to enjoy it here more so than ever before, you know.
We're on WhatsApp, I should say. It's about 087-484-8888 if that's easier for people to get in touch. And Anthony Walker's on the line as well. Anthony, you do a tribute act to Michael Jackson.
Yeah, I do. How's it going, everybody? Good. Yeah, I do the Michael Jackson tribute act, the tribute show. I actually met Liam in Cork. Me and Liam got to talk to each other in the Cork Opera House where we played.
Chapter 6: What parallels are drawn between Michael Jackson and other controversial figures?
And I got to meet Liam there and actually Liam done a bit of magic for me backstage in the opera house. So a big hello to Liam there as well. Me and Liam go back a little bit.
So how long have you been doing the tribute then?
When did it start? I started doing the kind of tribute show in around the age of 24. So I've done it for about 40 years. Oh wow. Yeah, so I'd done it for a long, long time. I'd done the last show actually in Mosney. Not my last show, but the last show when Mosney was closing in 2000. I'd done probably the last night there with the Michael Jackson stuff. That's actually online.
And then I went on to play and when he died, MCD approached me and I put the Michael Jackson show together and we played the Olympia about 15 times Cork Opera House, the Waterfront in Belfast, all the big theatres totally around the country. We played everywhere. But it was pubs and clubs and then we started doing festivals and theatres.
And did the popularity of the show or the demand, did it ebb and flow with allegations and court cases and things? Were people less likely to book you when he was in court?
When The Force came out in 93, I used to be playing more pubs than I did theatres. So I played pubs. So yeah, all my bookings started failing then in around when The Alligators came out in 93. So The Force ones, in around the History Tour. So yeah, so my bookings started falling off the soil because people weren't sure or... The unfortunate thing, the way...
the way it is, unfortunately, especially for celebrities, including Michael Jackson, they get slapped with the guilty stick before they get that day in court, including with the likes of Cliff Richard and stuff like that. You know, have they go and prove themselves innocent before they get a chance?
You know, they shouldn't, like, their life is displayed in front of everybody in the newspapers and the televisions before they can get a chance to, you know, because it's hard to revive or to retrieve your scene, you know, to get back your career. You can lose your career quicker.
So, like Cliff Richard did mention at one stage, just bringing him up, he mentioned, you know, celebrities should probably, the media shouldn't be allowed to report on things like this until it goes to court and then if you're convicted then sprawl it across the papers. But until then, it should be kind of kept at arm's length where they can't report it because the damage is done.
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Chapter 7: How do fans reconcile enjoying Michael Jackson's music with his allegations?
What you're saying could be true, but Michael Jackson bragged about how much he loved kids. He openly talked about how he would share his bed with children who weren't his own. He openly talked on documentaries about how he would lock the door to his bedroom while he shared the bed with children who were not his own.
And then when some of those children turned around and said, he actually sexually abused us when he put us into his bed and locked the door behind him, that we turn around and say, oh no, this is a conspiracy to take down Michael Jackson.
What kids said that?
Jordan Chandler, Jason Irvizo, Jason Francia, Wade Robson, James Safechuck.
Well, no, Irvizo didn't say that. And the only two that I know of was Robinson and...
safe chuck you know they came out with all that sort of stuff nobody said he locked the door thing went Macaulay Culkin came out and said that you have to understand Michael Jackson himself said in documentaries that he shared the bed with them with these kids yeah well Macaulay Culkin says you have to understand Michael Jackson's like bedroom was two floors you know what I mean so his like you're talking about he lived in a mansion so like when he shared in the bed like there's loads it's a two floor bedroom that he lived in yeah
So, like, you have to imagine, we can't imagine, we just think of a little bedroom that we all have, just with one bed in it.
I just had a fascinating idea. So, you hear hoofbeats and you think zebras?
No, I don't. No, unless there's 100% evidence, like, Robinson, I think, they have no, like, absolute evidence. You know what I mean? There's no absolute evidence. You know what I mean? There's no DNA, there's no nothing. So unless somebody shows me absolute evidence, well then, if you show me the evidence, well then I go, that's it, I'm done.
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