#471 — The End of History, Revisited
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What is the significance of Francis Fukuyama's thesis in 'The End of History'?
I am here with Francis Fukuyama. Frank, thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Well, thanks very much for having me.
I think you and I have only met in person once. I don't know if you recall this, but I think we met in Mexico ages ago at the Ciudad de las Ideas conference.
Okay, sure, in Puebla.
Yeah, yeah. That was a strangely well-produced event. It was impressive. It was like the Mexican version of TED, but with some obvious narco traffickers sitting in the front row. Right. You know, octogenarians with 20-year-old girlfriends or something like that.
Funded by one of the richest men in Mexico.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's good to see you. We've got a lot to talk about, so I'm just going to take it from the top here. You've never been on the podcast, which seems like a glaring omission on my part, so apologies to both you and the audience that it took so long to get you here. But I just want to tap your political wisdom and get your view of the present. But let's start with the beginning that most people will know you first from your article and then book, The End of History. As a writer of books, I'm exquisitely sensitive to a title serving to mislead most of one's audience and most of the world who will never read the book.
How has conservatism evolved into ethno-nationalism?
And I think you're the ultimate example of this. And The End of History as a phrase seems to have convinced many people that you were claiming something that you were not in fact claiming. So what was your thesis there and what is the common misunderstanding of it?
Well, I think it revolves around two words. End does not mean the cessation of history. It meant what is the objective or goal towards which history seems to be moving. And history, you know, in my sense, was that of the philosopher Hegel, which was a progressive evolution of human society. So the end of history meant where is the whole modernization development process going? And my argument was that it looked like it was tending towards a market economy linked to a liberal democratic political system. So that was the origin of the, I think, the misunderstanding, because a lot of people just read the title and said, he thinks that stuff is going to stop happening. And that was never the idea. The other thing is that I turned the original article into a book with the title The End of History and the Last Man.
The end of history part comes from the philosopher Hegel. The last man part comes from the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, who said that the last man is the ambitionless, passionless creature that emerges at the end of history. when all of his material comforts and security had been taken care of, and he no longer has any great aspirations or ambitions, and that this was one of the problems of the end of history, that people aren't going to want to be in that position, and they're going to try to rebel against it. And I actually spent the last five chapters of the book version explaining how democracy could break down in ways that I think are actually being acted out as we speak.
So do you still feel that liberal democracy running on the rails of capitalism has more or less won the argument and there's no real durable contender to it, even if in fact there are enemies of it and processes by which it can erode? Or
What are the dangers of identity politics and neoliberalism?
Do you think, I mean, one data point recently, as recently as I think yesterday, in favor of that is, you know, we saw Viktor Orban lose the election. But I think many people view the kind of capitalist, quasi-capitalist authoritarianism that we're seeing in China now as a more durable contender. How do you view that, the sense that we know the punchline of history and it is liberal democracy if we can only hold on to it?
Well, honestly, I don't know the answer to that. I think that the Chinese have created a pretty impressive system. It is authoritarian. It's quasi-market-based, and they are very successful at marshalling new technology. They're capable of innovating a lot of things we thought they weren't able to do. And conversely, a democracy, especially American democracy,
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the significance of Francis Fukuyama's thesis in 'The End of History'?
0:02–1:43
2
How has conservatism evolved into ethno-nationalism?
1:43–3:48
3
What are the dangers of identity politics and neoliberalism?
3:48–5:50
4
How does Trump's presidency impact American democracy?
5:50–7:46
5
What are the implications of the war in Iran for global order?
7:46–9:27
6
How is antisemitism manifesting on both the left and right?
9:27–11:35
7
What are the challenges facing liberal democracy today?
11:35–14:00
8
How can liberal values be defended without resorting to identity politics?
14:00–18:40