Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast. Hello and welcome to what women are actually talking about on Monday and Friday. I forgot to say the name of the show. I think maybe this is a Friday problem. Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Friday the 23rd of February, January. Wow.
Can we go home now? I'm done.
What's wrong with me? It's been a week of big news. I'm all distracted. Anyway, I'm Holly Wainwright. I got that bit right. Allegedly. Allegedly. I'm M. Vernon. And I'm Jessie Stephens. And here's what's on our agenda for today, for our Friday show. Maybe you've recovered from watching Heated Rivalry. Maybe you're about to dive in. Whatever. It's a global phenom.
It has been now for a good month or so. And Em has a theory about why straight women are obsessed with queer romance. And if you haven't watched it, I'm here. I'm here holding your hand. You don't need to have watched it. You definitely don't need to have watched it because it's bigger than those two hockey players.
Plus there are new way friends are hanging out now. It doesn't involve wine. It does involve doing your taxes.
It can. It always can. Sounds riveting. And am I venting too much? The answer is definitely. But does that make me a bad friend? Because according to some experts, yes, yes it does.
But first, in case you missed it, two besties named Matt Damon and Ben Affleck. Might have heard of them.
Aww. I'm loving seeing them on the press circuit together.
Does it bring back memories?
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Chapter 2: What makes queer romance appealing to straight women?
We did, we did. But they've released, because I feel like they love doing stuff together, as we know, they've released a new movie called The Rip. It is currently on Netflix and they've been doing a bit of a press tour. They recently went on Joe Rogan's podcast and they were talking about... See what I mean? About slightly Gen X problematic-y sometimes. Did they both go on or was it just Matt?
It was just Matt, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was Ben. Both of them, both of them.
Really? Yeah. Okay. All right. Yes, yes, yes. I would like to listen to that.
We've got a spare four hours. Anyway. Anyway.
So they were talking regardless of ā let's pretend Joe Rogan said this.
That's okay.
It's just the two of them. He can be there. He's there, like us.
He's there.
Matt was talking about how releasing a movie on streaming services like Netflix is very different to releasing movies in cinemas now and it's all about attention.
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Chapter 3: How do streaming services change storytelling?
It was very low budget. And they should have known it was going to be so huge because it's It's based on a very successful book series, and that book series is part of a whole genre of queer tilting romance that is very squarely marketed at and consumed by straight women. Young Women Book Talk's got a lot to do with this, but also older women.
We talked on the show about romance genres last year and how that's a genre of publishing that's still going crazy, and this is a very established, like male-to-male queer stories being consumed by straight women are a very... big and well-known phenomenon. Apparently about 80% of the people who buy those books are women.
And of that 80%, 60% of them identify as straight with the others identifying as like queer, bi, gay. But there's a very clear marketing push towards straight women on these books. So one of the things that's really interesting about this is that why is that?
And there's a good theory which Em brought up, which is that watching two men ā if you're a straight woman, watching two men fall in love, have a messy relationship, have some sex, break up, get back together, whatever ā
is freeing because you have a holiday from putting yourself in the story that's what you said right yeah I feel like when we watch like romance movies or tv shows and it's a man and a woman you automatically insert yourself in the woman's shoes and you firstly nitpick her you're like oh she's such a pick me she wouldn't do this why is she doing this why is she wearing why is she wearing that and then you put yourself in her shoes in another way by going
oh, she shouldn't accept that for him. Why is she doing that? Why is she sending him nudes? What's going on? And then when I watched Heated Rivalry, I didn't feel any of that because myself couldn't be in that physically. So I was just sitting back and going, this is just such a nice show.
So there's a name for it. Yeah. It's called Escaping the Heroin Burden. Oh. I love that. So there's a whole established theory about this because, as you say, is that a certain amount of baggage comes with watching a straight relationship, especially now when dating is really complicated and the politics of dating is very front and centre.
A classic example of this might be, for example, if you have been watching Heated Rivalry, In the second episode, the hot Russian basically treats the other guy in a way that if that was a woman, we would not accept it. He ghosts him. He negs him. You know, he's kind of dismissive and rude to him. He has sex with him and not even kiss him.
And tells him to get out straight afterwards and all those things. If that was a male-female romance on mainstream TV, we would be like, the culture would be like, get out, girl, you deserve better than that. And I don't know that now we would accept that as an obstacle to true love in a way that is presented here.
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of venting in friendships?
Oh, my God, he vented. Did he ever vent? The thing is I think what are we going to talk about? And you're right, we would go where the men go, which is we'd talk about sport. We'd talk about and I hate like let's talk about real estate, schools and fucking blah, blah.
More than that.
I want to talk about real things and that does often involve some venting. However, don't tell me that you have never had a friend
who over vents all the time come on okay so there are rules and i agree with you holly i reckon there's nothing worse than asking how someone's going and they're like Works great. This is great. This is great. And it's like maybe it is but I don't really believe it. Like I'm trying to find a crack. Like that's where the interesting stuff happens.
Are you trying to find a crack or a way in?
A way in. A way in where there's some vulnerability. I believe that that's where connection is found but I agree with you. So the rules of venting are... We need character development. We need new plot points. What I don't like is rumination. Circular venting. The circular venting.
So I had a friend the other night who kept apologising for venting and we all went, no, no, no, we're actually quite enjoying this. Your work venting is interesting to us. We're not emotionally invested.
Your boss is a minor character in my life. Exactly.
And I'm enjoying all of this information, right? This is a great Netflix show. I'll watch episode two. But what I don't want is to then have, you know, 10 instances where it's exactly the same point and you kind of go, oh, we've had this conversation. I'm fine for the complaining about work to continue, but it's like... You want some agency or some change.
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Chapter 5: Is venting considered toxic behavior?
I just walked up a hill. Anyway, and I just went for the second option. I just thought, fuck it. I'm going to do it. It's just her and I here. I reckon I'm a good enough reader to know if she's finding this conversation boring. She then started telling me about this chronic pain condition she had I had no idea about.
And it ended up in her venting, like her going, oh, my goodness, I feel as though my body's falling apart. I feel as though I have no control, blah, blah, blah. And it was one of the most insightful, fruitful conversations I had over the whole break where where she helped me put words around how I was feeling. I felt deeply connected to her.
She clearly felt like she couldn't sit and you just don't know what's happening for other people. And opening that crack up a little bit meant that we could be honest and access this other level of intimacy and vulnerability that I think would have been missing otherwise.
But do you also think by talking about like stuff as deep as that, you're also opening the door for them to also help you if you need it? Yeah, yeah. Because I feel like when you have those kind of conversations, then you go home and then they might send you a link to a physio or something like that.
I think the venting that people get frustrated by is if it's like the same problem happening over and over again and that person's not doing anything to help them. And I remember I had a friend who was venting about work like so much. Like every time we hung out so much, she wasn't doing anything. It was just like an outlet that she needed.
It got to the point where I would dread seeing her because I knew it would be a drain. And then one day I think I just sent her a link to a new job. And then I think it made her realise, oh, I've been talking about this. I think she didn't realise how much she was centring this in her life until she saw her friend. And then she realised and then she got a new job and it's so much better.
Because that's what you need from your friendships, right, is I reckon that when you're stuck in that cycle, your frontal lobe or something actually shuts down and you're not reasonable. And also because you feel like you're in a safe space, which you should feel that.
And a friend can say to you, I had this over the break, I knew I was irrationally angry about something and I was venting to very specific people about this thing that I was angry about. And those three people had the exact same advice for me. Like they told me exactly what they were like. I totally understand how you feel.
I think probably you don't say anything because they were using a part of their brain that was actually useful in that situation. I took their advice. They were right. I moved through it. But those vents, I think, made me feel like I didn't have to go and then take it out on this person who actually ultimately didn't deserve it.
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Chapter 6: What are the benefits of venting with friends?
Tell us about these new kind of friendship nights. Admin night. So all the stuff that you've been putting off, like your taxes. Accuracy.
I have a very long list.
What you do is you get your friends together at someone's house once a month. They bring their laptops. They bring their notepads. They bring their emotional support water bottle. And you just sit down together and you do those tasks. So whether it's booking appointments, making appointments. What else do people do? Well, I'll tell you. Mathematics maybe.
The things on my admin list at the moment.
Taxes. But also I've got complicated passport renewals going on. I've got car service I need to book. I've got medical appointments for things. I would still rather go to prison for not doing those things. You want to do it in front of us? Than go and hang out with my friends and do an admin night. That sounds like hell. Maybe that's what we need.
Maybe we need to be... to get all of these things done because then we don't feel like we're missing out on anything. My one is claims, question mark. Like I need to claim blah. But that comes under taxes. Oh. Medicare. Like there's lots of things. Or like pay bill or like get to bottom of email, which will never, ever happen. Like a bunch of just boring.
I like the idea of doing it around people. Because then if you have questions that people to ask, they'll judge me for the fact.
They'll be like, weren't you talking about renewing that passport last year? And I'm like.
Yeah, and? It does feel good though. I had to renew my licence recently and I think it had been 10 years I needed a new photo. So I was like this is an insurmountable task I can never achieve. Like I don't see how this fits into my life. Like all I did was talk about how I can't, where do I go? Yeah. Where? And also I look the same. I look the same. It's fine. Anyway.
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Chapter 7: How do new friendship dynamics shape venting?
Anne Hathaway. Not that Anne Hathaway who suffered her own slings and arrows.
of outrageous fortune but not her so popular wisdom goes that Shakespeare was married he married this woman in Stratford which is where he's from which is kind of in the Midlands of England before he became famous before he became a big deal and the popular wisdom kind of goes she trapped him by having a baby and he had to marry her and she was kind of dumb and illiterate and then he went off to London and became this big shiny star and he was always kind of like
to this ball and chain of Anne Hathaway. That was kind of like for a long time what the story of Shakespeare's wife was. If you watch Shakespeare in Love closely, you know that amazing rom-com that Gwynny won, it's even referenced in that that he has a wife somewhere. But, you know, it's a mismatched problem.
So Maggie O'Farrell, and she wasn't the first, I think Germaine Greer also did this, like nobody really knows what was going on there.
No.
But reimagine the story that Anne Hathaway, who in her book is called Agnes, actually it's a real love match. Like she's a really interesting woman. She's a bit of a witchy, naturey, witchy woman. It was a real love match and they were very passionate about each other and their family. But she really understood his ambition and he had this controlling father and whatever.
So she was like, you go off to London and do your thing and send for us one day and then it didn't happen. But anyway.
Hamnet is kind of about that but the reason everybody will say it's devastating it's all those things is because and I don't think this is a spoiler because it is the whole premise of the book is that they have a son who dies and this movie is so beautifully made it's directed by a woman called Chloe Zhao she made Nomadland which was that sort of very beautiful ponderous movie where Francis McDormand is working the Amazon factory and travels around blah blah blah
She won a lot of awards for that. Yeah, and then she went Marvels and did The Eternals with Angelina Jolie, but this is kind of a bit of a return to more the award-bait stuff. It stars Paul Muskell and Jessie Buckley, who I didn't really know about, but she won the Golden Globe. This is her film. She is in every scene. It is absolutely extraordinary. Mm.
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Chapter 8: What recommendations do the hosts have for this week?
So I was like, how can I make my life 1% better today? This is so okay. Yeah, he says Kaizen a lot as a passive-aggressive tool to be like... put the butter back in the fridge or something. But it's about marginal gains and this is like I reckon I feel 1% better every day because I've got my comfy underpants on.
There's something witchy about this, Jessie, because I did exactly the same thing on the weekend. I remember a few years ago I said...
on this show that one day I just threw away all my knickers yeah and I expected to get a lot of pushback on that because wasteful but actually everyone was like yes because the thing is is and I don't want to make myself sound gross or anything but there's a certain percentage of your underwear is like doesn't make you feel good it's got holes it's got those threads it's not you know it's just not good anymore like there's a lifespan
right yeah and I would be the same rummaging around and so I did that again just this past weekend we were probably at different K-marts at different parts at the same time I'm jealous and I threw away all my yucky knickers and I bought all new exactly the same big black cotton knickers any sexy pieces in there well it's unfortunate see single people always say this my friend said to me
Buy yourself sexy undies. Just for yourself. Well, I might, but I was like that's not the priority of this shop. Okay. This shop is about volume, economy, and just general improvements of comfort. So you and I both had a knicker purge on the weekend. We did.
I picked up one that I discovered was a J-string and I went, oh, no, there's been an error. No, no, no, no, no. That's not what I want.
That's not what we're here for.
I need a big boy leg at the back.
That's a different thing. Actually, I would love recommendations. I should ask you for like ā When I say sexy, I don't mean sexy. Like comfy, fun. But nice looking, good undies, good brand. I actually do have some links. That might be my record next week. Because I quite want colourful, nice undies too, like bras and stuff.
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