Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Hey, everyone. It's Adam Grant. I host a podcast called Rethinking about the science of what makes us tick. This season, we're talking to philosopher and author Alain de Botton about how to build character and lead meaningful lives.
If you're going to be an elitist, please could you be an elitist about the really important things, you know, which is, is someone kind? Is someone nice? Is their soul open? Are they thoughtful? And maybe we can afford to pass judgment, as it were, on where people are according to this scale of values.
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I won't get another chance to help them learn Arabic for the sake of them being connected to this massive heritage that they're inheriting. So in that context, it has to happen now. And if you're going to ask me how important is it that they get that connection, I'm going to tell you it's everything.
I'm Reem Ahraes, and welcome to This is Uncomfortable. Like a lot of kids of immigrants, I grew up with parents who tried really hard to hold on to our culture. Like, every Sunday, they drove me and my siblings to Islamic school. And every summer, if they could afford it, they'd send us abroad to be with family to learn Arabic.
While I'm not a parent yet, I do think a lot about what kind of things I'd want to pass on someday and what it would take to actually do that, not just emotionally, but financially. Which is what I'm talking about this week with journalist Ayman Ismail. Ayman is a writer and podcast host at Slate, where he reports on politics, religion, and parenting.
He also came out with a memoir recently called Becoming Baba, which is about how he navigates identity and fatherhood as a Muslim American. Ayman and his wife have two small kids, and recently they've decided that it's really important that they send them to Islamic school, even though it's going to cost them a lot more than they'd like.
Eamon agreed to sit down with me and walk through his family budget, line item by line item, and talk openly about what it costs emotionally and financially to hold on to a sense of belonging right now. Eamon, welcome to the show.
Wow, what an intro. You almost do this for a living or something.
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Chapter 2: Why is it important for Aymann Ismail to pass down Arabic to his children?
Wow. And this is full-time? This is full-time school. It's not Sunday school? Okay. So this is like a K through 12 school. So it's all the way up to the end of high school to college.
Mm-hmm.
Academically, it's pretty good. But at the same time, we really got to learn Arabic. And we also really got to understand not really the spiritual side of the religion, but the mechanics. And at the time, I was like, this is so dumb. Why are we learning to put one hand over the other? Does God really care if you put your left hand over the right hand? We were learning that side of it. Right.
But as I got older, I think, I finally am at a point now where I've found the meaning in all of those years of being in Islamic school. All of that money, all of that pain and arguing. And now, you know, because now I have kids. I have two kids, alhamdulillah. And... I'm starting to feel really insecure in my ability as a parent to transfer that knowledge by myself.
I don't think I can teach them to really understand the mechanisms of being a Muslim because it is like a physical practice, just as much as it is a spiritual one. I'm not totally confident in my ability to teach them that. I don't even speak enough Arabic myself to pass it down. And there was this moment the other day, you know, I have an aunt in Egypt. She and I talk on the phone all the time.
I love her dearly. And I was really excited because my kids were in the car. And so I put her on speakerphone and I was like, they're in the car. You should say hi. And she said all these really nice things. All in Arabic, I'm imagining. I love you. All in Arabic, right? She doesn't speak English at all. And my kids were just like staring out the window like they have no idea what's going on.
And at that moment, I'm like, oh, no, it's not just like about religion. It's not even about like language. It's about their tether to their heritage. Are they ever going to truly feel connected to their huge family in Egypt at all if they can't talk to them? And at that point, it started to feel more like an emergency than anything else.
Hmm. That's such a relatable feeling. I mean, being from the perspective of the kid, I don't know if you have similar experiences where like growing up, I'd be, I talk with like my relatives abroad and like try to string together words and stumble through it. So that was a moment when you really thought like, okay, I need to get serious about sending them to Islamic school.
Like at that point, was it a thing that you'd been weighing? And then it really has flipped over to, yes, I'm actually going to do it.
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Chapter 3: What financial sacrifices does Aymann make to afford Islamic school?
My wife recently found that about. So they're watching like 101 Dalmatians in Arabic, The Little Mermaid in Arabic.
Really?
Oh, that's amazing. I mean, it's really hard. You really have to commit to it. I have a friend who during the pandemic realized that she wanted her kids to learn and speak Arabic. And she's just stopped speaking English to them. Like the only content that they're exposed to now is Arabic. They don't watch any Disney movies. I don't know if she knows about the dub movies.
She went to this other extreme. But it's hard. Like I know most of my friends are straddling in between and trying to figure out what to commit to. But going back to you, just to be clear, how much does Islamic school cost?
Islamic school depends on the Islamic school. The ones that we're looking at are between $7,000 and $8,000 a year.
Per kid?
Per kid.
So as you were weighing that decision of whether to send them to Islamic school, what conversations were you having with your wife about money?
Yeah, money came up right away for me. Right. So like a lot of Muslim families, our finances are kind of separate. Like she has her money. I've got my money.
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Chapter 4: How does Aymann's upbringing influence his parenting decisions?
Right.
So... It sounds like, like you were saying earlier, it wasn't a consideration whether or not they could afford it. It was that important. They were going to make it work. Do you feel like you brought that similar mentality when you were looking at your budget?
Uh, not necessarily. I mean, I want to make my budget work as best as I can. I have so many awful memories of like going a night without dinner or having, you know, nothing but like bread and cheese because we were that strapped. It was rough. It wasn't enjoyable.
I also remember like getting kind of made fun of in school because I only had like one pair of pants and like people could tell if the stains weren't going away. So... Yeah, it sucked. And my dad at the time, he was working as a taxi cab driver in New York City.
My mom, actually, she ended up taking a job at the school because she needed the tuition discount and also to make money to make it happen. So that was the position they were in. They were like, okay, it doesn't make sense for us to do it. We're going to do it anyways. I see. They made it work. I don't feel like I'm in that desperate of a position. We could take a look at my finances.
Maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, let's do it. Maybe it doesn't work. But I think I can make it work.
You could share your screen, but if you don't want to do that, you could just look at it and tell me.
I can share the screen.
Perfect.
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Chapter 5: What challenges does Aymann face in teaching his children Arabic?
Well, yeah. Are you still considering that?
No, I'm not. I don't want to have kids who can't speak Arabic or read Arabic. I think to me, this is the only chance I get to do this, right? When they're really, really young. I won't get another chance like after high school to help guide them and like help them learn Arabic for the sake of them being connected to this massive heritage that they're inheriting. This is the one shot.
This is the only shot that I get. So in that context, it has to happen now. And if you're going to ask me how important is it that they get that connection, I'm going to tell you it's everything. It's not just their lives in the balance. It's their kids' lives. And the idea that I'm going to be the weakest link in this generations-long connection to Islam and
you know, to family in Egypt, like the coolest place somebody could be from. I mean, I'm just saying. Like that to me, I feel like I gotta do everything. I gotta do everything for that.
That's a lot of weight that you're putting on yourself. Yeah. So what kinds of conversations are you having with folks in your life who are also new parents and who are also weighing these kinds of things?
So I have two brothers. Both of them have two kids. neither of them are even considering Islamic school as an option. Like for them, it's not even a priority. So like my brother, for example, he makes a lot more money than me. He's one of those guys who like all he wants to do is make money to pass down money to his kids.
So that way his kids don't have to experience what we experience as kids with like being strapped all the time. Like if he was having the conversation with you right now, he would talk about... Our parents' choice to put us in Islamic school is the dumbest thing possible. They just couldn't afford it. How could they even consider it if you don't have the money for it?
That's interesting.
Yeah, so he's put his kids in public school. My other brother is really similar. Doesn't even think about raising his kids Arab and Muslim. In fact, he gave his kids non-Arabic sounding names. It's not even a priority for them. So I spoke to my brother about it. And so he's like, dude, you can't afford it. He's like, if you're not saving a third of your income, then you can't afford it.
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Chapter 6: How does Aymann's family budget reflect their educational priorities?
What's a parenting expense that you didn't expect? Something surprising that nobody warned you about?
I'm going to say fruits. Oh. Like I love fruits. I'm always buying fruits, but kids will inhale them like they're nothing. Oh. And so if you buy like a box of strawberries, for example, they're what, like $4.99. They're gone in a minute. God forbid I get blackberries and they're like... Eight bucks. Gone before we even get home. And so I want my kids to have all the fruits that they can enjoy.
And I think that's part of the reason why our grocery bill is so high. It's because we pay for a lot of fruits. And I promise you, it's like they vanish.
I mean, better than chips and cookies, right?
That's the thing. Yeah, we don't buy any of that. I'm like really careful with that. I don't give my kids like French fries and stuff. They've never tasted fast food. They never will.
Oh, they never will. How much did the diaper budget go down once your oldest got potty trained?
Oh, dude. Do you know how much diapers costs?
No.
It's like a dollar a diaper.
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Chapter 7: What conversations does Aymann have with his wife about finances?
Total on diapers? At least $15,000. What? At least. I guarantee that's probably more.
Whoa.
Probably more. Because think about it. They're in diapers for about two years. Right, more. So two and a half years, two kids, probably going to spend something like $400 a month.
Yeah, easy. That's insane. All right, so what is the most expensive thing you've bought for your kids?
Oh, God, I knew this was coming. The most expensive... that I've bought for them was those Love Every play kits. So for people who aren't familiar, Montessori toys are all the rage right now. And so they have toys that are like, here's a gardening thing, and it helps with motor functions. And here's this game that's like flashcards, and it helps with memory and that kind of approach.
And so, yeah, I splurged. My wife was not happy when I showed her how much it cost. It's like $100 a box. And I had like...
bought like seven or eight of those boxes oh wow but did they enjoy them oh dude i i feel like they're geniuses and every time anybody's like wow they're so smart i'm like those boxes though love every worth every dollar seriously if your kids get invited to a birthday party how much are you spending on the birthday gift for this for this random kid oh dude uh five bucks
We're going to the dollar store.
We're going to the dollar store. We're getting them a pack of stickers. We're going to get them a balloon and maybe like a little bit of like healthy gummies or like a juice box. And I'm telling you, that's enough. These kids don't need these big toys.
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