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Chapter 1: Why do we struggle to fully embrace our emotions?
Joe Hudson, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Chris. Good to see you, man.
Feels different to speak to you now.
Yeah, I bet.
It feels different. Yeah. The audience will know that I spent a long week with you at your intensive retreat. Yeah. So yeah, to now sit down back in my domain after having spent a week desperately trying to survive in yours feels somewhat different.
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Chapter 2: How can we live with an open heart despite vulnerability?
Yeah. It was great to have you there.
It was a very strange, very meaningful experience, especially given that it's completely sober. There's a lot of talk of how important it is to, how popular it is at least, to do the psychedelic trip down to Costa Rica or the ayahuasca DMT thing. You can get pretty far without having to add anything in except for a morning coffee if you've got the right container and practices.
Yeah, I don't know if you've ever seen the data on the work, but we change negative self-talk by a standard deviation across all the participants and the neuroses drops by a little less than a standard deviation. So yeah, cool stuff can happen.
Harvard, who's doing the study?
Uh, there's a, is a researcher who worked at Harvard. She no longer does.
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Chapter 3: What role does self-talk play in emotional well-being?
And then we had somebody at Columbia who's doing it. And then we just now have another person doing another research project on us.
So it doesn't surprise me.
Quantum physics from Oxford is the new person who's at least talking to us about, we haven't figured out what we're doing yet.
Oh.
One of the questions that came up after we spent a week together was, is it hard to live in the real world with an open heart?
Yeah.
That was one of the first questions that I thought of.
It's hard not to is my experience. I don't know anything that, um, I don't know anything that feels better with a closed heart. So we have this thing that our brain does that tells us that, oh, I'm going to get hurt or I'm going to get in trouble or I'm going to get taken advantage of if I close my heart or if I don't close my heart, if I don't protect myself.
But there's not a tremendous amount of evidence for that. like Gandhi didn't get taken advantage of or Martin Luther King didn't get taken advantage of. A really open-hearted mother doesn't particularly get taken advantage of. Some might, some might not, but they're not really correlated. And so my experience is that if you close your heart down, it hurts. It's just painful.
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Chapter 4: How can we change our relationship with love and fear?
Why do we do it? We're scared of love. I mean, that's one of the things that I think you must have noticed in Groundbreakers is that on some level you could say almost everybody there was... had been entrained in love in some way that was not useful. And so now they're scared of it.
So like love came with guilt and therefore love isn't safe or love came with getting smothered or love came with criticism or love- Obligation. Obligation. And therefore love is scary, not for what it, but at the same time, we definitely want love. We're born wanting love. Like little kids are like, give me attention, give me love. That's what they want.
And so we have this desire for it, but then when we get it, it comes with this something that's toxic or not good or, and then we're like, oh shoot, we're scared of love. And so, and to some degree, that's all of it. It's like, like I can see almost all humans kind of doing this with love. You know, the most pronounced one is jealousy.
You know, like if I'm in a relationship and a person with me is, and I'm jealous on one level, I'm like, I want you, I want you, I want you. And on one level, I'm like, I'm going to like criticize you and, and make you feel wrong and bad. And I'm pushing you away. And this is what I see almost everybody's doing with love in their life with themselves as well.
I mean, even in loving themselves, they're doing that.
So we have that pattern. I think, is it hard to live in the real world with an open heart? It came to me as a question because it was pretty easy to do it within the container of this very gentle, very understanding, very...
Oh, but check it out. You just said it's like gentle and understanding. But right before that, you said intense, like hard core. Like the way you said it wasn't like everyone wasn't going to be like, yeah, I want to go do that. That sounds like fun. It was like, no, that shit's intense. So how do you put those two things together?
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Chapter 5: What are the benefits of expressing emotions instead of suppressing them?
Well, the dauntingness, I think, of fully being seen is to do with it being alien. Yeah. It's to do with it being unfamiliar. Yeah. Um, it's to do with a level of transparency and openness, uh, that isn't, you're not used to, and it's, It must be like being a, for want of a better example, like a mistreated puppy or something.
And this puppy has been taught that every time somebody raises a hand at it, it should cower awake because it's going to get hit. But this time the hand gets raised and it gets a pat on the head. And it needs to learn over time it cowers less and less and less. And then it actually learns to love the hand that comes down toward it.
Yes. That's exactly what it is. That's so cool.
Depatterning.
Yeah.
that response takes time. So that's the daunting side, the daunting and intense side. The reason that I said the real world was there was a story the first day that we came out, me and one of the other guys went for a massage. She said body work would be a really good idea.
This beautiful, peaceful, very calm reception waiting area of the Thai massage parlor in a sleepy village in Sonoma County was too intense that we had to leave and go outside. Like this is, you know, there's like a little USB plugged in waterfall and like,
plink plonk music playing in the background like we we're gonna we're gonna go stand in the courtyard because we're like i kind of i don't know what the fuck's good what did you call it uh not spirit sick not dope sick like something hangover spirit hangover oh uh vulnerability hangover maybe i use that word i feel it was something else sick as well anyway um we go outside what it made me realize is that
There's one level of difficulty, which is within a safe container, learning that the hand is going to come and pat you, not beat you.
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Chapter 6: How do we navigate vulnerability in relationships?
Okay. Can you dig into that? Yeah. So there's so much there. So if I look at a pattern that I'm holding in my life, I have three ways that I hold that pattern in my life. One of the ways is that I attract it. So let's say I have a pattern of feeling highly criticized.
One of the ways that I'm going to attract it is I'm going to be attracted to and want critical women in my life or critical bosses in my life or So I'm going to be, I'm just going to notice, wow, all my girlfriends criticize me all the time, just like my mom did or some version of, but I'm attracted to it. One way is that I manipulate people into doing it, right?
So some way in which somebody is not criticizing me, I am going to like fish for the criticism or I'm going to do something that I know is going to make them criticize me, or I'm going to be a little needy about something that's going to make them push me away and criticize it, you know? And then the last one is I'm going to prove somebody's criticizing me even when I'm not being criticized.
Right. So you might say, oh, hey, you're not parked straight because you don't. But for me, that means I parked all fucked up and you criticize.
I've never been a good parker.
Exactly. Like I'm going to make meaning out of that. I call that mapping. So you're manipulating people to do it. You're attracting it. and you are proving it, because you're looking at the cases where it's true, you're not looking at the cases that aren't true. And so we go out into the world, and so you go for a week long with us, and all of a sudden, the patterns don't work anymore.
And then you go out into the world, but you're used to doing a particular thing in the world, which is mapping this pattern. And so all of a sudden, you're like, wait, how do I interact with the world? Yeah. And so we've had people come out, like you said, like I have a hard time sitting in this massage parlor.
We've had people come out and literally call us from a grocery store and say, I don't, I don't know what to buy anymore. Whole Foods was the tip of the spear of difficulty for people. Exactly.
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Chapter 7: What are effective strategies for breaking the cycle of negative self-talk?
And so, so it's just like, oh, I'm not in my pattern. So how do I operate anymore?
It's a little bit like shaking the Etch-a-Sketch, I think. Yeah. And it's sort of, it's, it's more blank.
One of the other things... I noticed that I'm thinking about your audience for a minute and I'm thinking they might have no idea what we're talking about because there's not a lot of experience of, oh, I saw the world one way and a week later I see the world a different way.
It's like you have to assume that to understand the conversation that we're having, that all of a sudden I thought that I had to be protected, but I realized that life is a lot better if I'm not protected. Now I have to learn how to do that in the real world. That's it.
That's it. That's it, write that. And yeah, it's so funny when you hear people talk about a religious experience or a transformational experience or a near-death experience or whatever it is that they've done. And from the outside, because you don't have that frame of reference, it's confusing, it's easy to mock. It's like, what the fuck is this person talking about?
I have no frame or context or whatever. It's a bit of me. Because I'm inside of that, I'm taking for granted. I'm like, I might just sound so mental. And this is relatively mild, I think, in the world of like, I saw a thing and this thing and whatever.
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Chapter 8: How can we better understand and manage overwhelm in our lives?
It's like, I realized that I didn't need to be as stiff and spiky as I used to. And that the sensitivity that is always inside of me is something that I don't need to necessarily hide and actually might make my world and other people's worlds a better place. And the very thing I wanted, which was for people to like me might occur more, the more that I show that the less.
So I wanted to show you this.
So I just like total tingles in my whole body. Cause I'm like, that's, that's why I love my work is to hear that exact thing. So thanks for sharing that.
Okay, so I have this episode that I recorded in New York a couple of weeks ago, a guy called John Bellion, one of the most legendary producers of our era. He's done billions of streams, Justin Bieber, Ed Sheeran. He's a solo artist himself. Okay. He released an album called Father Figure. It's about him becoming a dad.
It's about his reflections on his relationship with his dad, who was a super father, this sort of very strange, almost role model. People talk about, I have a super successful father and I need to be as powerful as him. This was different. This was, I had a really amazing dad, And I have to live up to being like as attuned and supportive and this sort of other type of intimidation, I suppose.
And I was in the shower this morning. I played this song in the car yesterday, but I didn't listen to the lyrics. And it's a song that just passed me by when I was doing my prep for the episode. And I knew I wanted to talk about living with an open heart.
Yeah.
And in this song, so I'm in the shower this morning. I cried at this song every single time I've heard it. So we'll see if it happens again now. Okay. But I wanted you to, I'm going to spin the lyrics around and we'll play the song. It's also going to get popped on YouTube, but I don't give a fuck because it's sufficiently important that I think it matters. So.
I'm scared to meet you cause then I might know you. And then once I know you, I might fall in love Once I'm in love, then my heart is wide open For you to walk in, drop a bomb, blow it up So why love anything, anything, anything at all? Why love?
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