David Estlund, "Utopophobia: On the Limits (If Any) of Political Philosophy" (Princeton UP, 2020)
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What is the central thesis of David Estlund’s book *Utopophobia*?
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Hello, and thanks for joining us for this episode of New Books and Philosophy, which is part of the New Books Network. I'm Robert Talese. I'm Professor of Philosophy at Vanderbilt University. I host the program along with Carrie Figder, Alexis McLeod, and Sarah Tyson. My guest today is David Eslund. David is a Lombardo Family Professor of Humanities and Philosophy at Brown University. He works primarily in political philosophy, and I suppose many listeners will know his influential work in democratic theory. David's new book is focused on a series of interlocking questions concerning the enterprise of political philosophy itself. This concern is reflected in the book's title, Utopophobia on the Limits, if Any, of Political Philosophy.
The book has just been published with Princeton University Press. Now, an intuitive line of thought would have it that our normative theorizing about the political order, perhaps normative theorizing in general, ought to be, in a certain sense, realistic. That is, it's tempting to hold that any proposed principle of social justice would be defective if it demands too much of people, given their proclivities. A stronger version of that view, one that many philosophers find attractive, has it that there's something about the concept of justice itself that makes it the kind of thing that must be down to earth and within our reach. Now, a range of conceptual and methodological issues quickly emerge once we begin wondering whether this kind of deference to the realistic and the feasible is warranted.
As some listeners will no doubt recognize, this series of disputes currently is characterized in the ideal-nonideal theory debate that is currently still pretty active in political philosophy. In the book Utopophobia, David Eslund explores the question of whether a proposed principle of justice is defective strictly in virtue of its being unrealistic. This is an intricately argued and wholly fascinating work of philosophy, so there's a lot to talk about. But let's begin, as we usually do, with our guest. Hello, David. Hi, Bob. How are you today? I'm good. That's good to hear. Well, you've written this fabulous book, but why don't you start us off by telling us a little bit about yourself?
Okay. Thanks about the book. And thanks for doing this. Thanks for having me. A little bit about myself. I grew up in Wisconsin. In high school, I was mostly interested in the arts, visual arts and music. And I guess that has some sequel in my life. Now I'm a serious hobbyist in photography. And in fact, as you might know, the book cover is a photograph of mine.
Right.
And in college, I was also politically active. I got involved in the anti-draft registration movement and with the attempt of TAs to unionize, that sort of thing.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the central thesis of David Estlund’s book *Utopophobia*?
0:00–10:20
2
How does Estlund describe his personal background and what led him to political philosophy?
10:20–21:56
3
Why do many philosophers argue that theories of justice must stay ‘down‑to‑earth’?
21:56–31:45
4
What is the ideal‑non‑ideal theory debate and why does Estlund think it matters?
31:45–42:23
5
How does Estlund ‘rebuff’ the claim that unrealistic justice principles are defective?
42:23–51:05
6
What do the ‘Slice and Patch’ and ‘Professor Procrastinate’ examples illustrate about collective obligations?
51:05–1:00:24
7
Why does Estlund argue that requirements of justice are moral rather than merely procedural?
1:00:24–1:11:18
8
What practical and non‑practical values does Estlund see in pursuing highly idealized theories of justice?
1:11:18–1:21:22
Speakers
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Philippe Huneman, "When Metaphysics Meets Biology: Kantian Approaches to the Concept of An Organism" (Routledge, 2026)
Rivka Weinberg, "The Meaning of It All: Ultimate Meaning, Everyday Meaning, Cosmic Meaning, Death, and Time" (Oxford UP, 2026)
PJ DiPietro, "Sideways Selves Travesti and Jotería, "Struggles Across the Américas" (U Texas Press, 2025)