Pablo Torre Finds Out
We Got Inside Knicks Surveillance — and MSG's Deep State Is Stranger Than You Think
17 Apr 2026
Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What are the Orwellian surveillance practices at Madison Square Garden?
Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is.
When I walked into the studio, right, did you recognize my face? I did. Facial recognition. Right after this ad.
So what are we doing? We're talking about the playoffs?
Yeah.
You're talking about how every time I walk around our city, both of us are from Manhattan, born and raised, people yell at me, don't go after Jalen Bronson.
Yeah, absolutely not.
Leave the Knicks alone is the number one bit of feedback that I get while doing my power walks around the city, which is how I exercise as the Knicks are entering the playoffs.
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Chapter 2: How does facial recognition technology impact security at MSG?
It's very clear that people are afraid that a show like this that cares about investigating stuff might partner with someone like Noah Shackman to do an episode about the New York Knicks. Yeah. And so this is a collaboration that we've done with you and Wired Magazine. It's a big new feature you have. Double byline, you and Bobby Silverman. And we got documents, Noah. We sure do.
I want to introduce you to the proceedings here with a line from your article, if that's okay. Yeah. Because it does say that in your decades reporting on national security, and this is you as a journalist who's covered the Pentagon, covered intelligence services, you've gone to Iraq, to Afghanistan, how many times in all?
I mean, not that many, but too many.
And yet... Quote, you never encountered people taking such elaborate steps to avoid being outed as a source as you did reporting on this story from inside of Madison Square Garden.
Yeah, it was nuts, man. You know, we were reporting the story a lot in this crazy cold winter that New York had. And we had sources who like insisted on staying outside the entire time. We had people who were absolutely convinced they were being tailed. We had people that were terrified they were being watched. Several of our sources were current and former members of the Garden security team.
And many of those people were former cops, you know, were figures in law enforcement or intelligence of some kind. And it's a matter of public record. You can go on LinkedIn and see that former FBI agents, former CIA officers, and former New York City cops join the Garden security staff. And so in a way, I know it sounds crazy, but these terrified people were part of James Dolan's deep state.
And I think the first time that sports fans realized that the owner of the Knicks might be allowing for a kind of surveillance state inside the actual arena was February 2017, when this happened.
Former NBA player Charles Oakley was dragged away from the Knicks Clippers game Wednesday night after he got into an argument with a security guard at Madison Square Garden. Eventually it gets physical and Oakley starts shoving the guards. The guards have to take him out physically. There you see it escalating. That is bizarre.
I mean, Charles Oakley, one of the most curmudgeonly people that's ever played sports, who also is quite combative.
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Chapter 3: How do insiders describe the culture of fear within MSG security?
Controlling, has a vast enemies list.
But the thing that you've been digging into, that's the shit that kind of blew my mind.
Yeah, this goes way beyond what happened to Oak. What happened to Oak started way before the garden went high-tech in its security pursuits and surveillance pursuits, before it really fully developed this deep state. Right. But what... shocked me as I learned this was just how relentless the pursuit of that enemies list was and how sophisticated that pursuit could be at times.
And I think to me, like the even scarier notion, right, is like Dolan is kind of a test case for this.
Which is to say that James Dolan, as the NBA is concerned, as pro sports is concerned, is something of a pioneer.
Yes, he's the future.
And frankly, I did not think I would live to see the day where we had the proof from the inside of what these people are telling each other and how they're operating, given the tools now available to them to execute a deeply personal agenda.
Honestly, I didn't either. When I got started on this, I didn't think we'd get this deep, but we did.
It's funny to get to introduce James Dolan as a character to someone for the first time, potentially.
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Chapter 4: What led to the infamous incident involving Charles Oakley?
We just say that the James Dolan we've just described is currently living some version of the dream.
No, he's winning. He's winning. He may have started out with this image of a fedora-wearing Nepo baby failson, but he has really come into his own.
Yeah, I mean, the Knicks are about to be in the postseason again.
Again, right, for the third or fourth year in a row.
They're a top three seed. And meanwhile, the Sphere... Yeah.
Speaking of entertainment products... Which very few people thought he could actually pull off, has become a huge, instantly iconic part of the American entertainment landscape. He now sits as the CEO or chairman or both of, I think, four different companies in... And I think their collective valuation is now in the $14, $15 billion range.
You know, he has become a genuine tech mogul in a lot of ways.
Sphere Entertainment alone is valued at like $4 billion. Yeah.
Which is to say, as Charles Oakley once put it, people got money, they can do a lot of things.
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Chapter 5: What allegations are made against MSG's surveillance of fans?
Yeah, I mean, it's creepy.
We're getting to a red-colored block. The terror alert scale has ramped up at 827 and 24 seconds.
Hugging a security officer?
8, 28, and 9 seconds. Escorted by the same security officer. And look, there it is, appendix I. 8, 28, and 20 seconds. The security officer enters the level 6 elevator with Nina Richards and a female guest. This is a photo from inside of the garden elevator. And what is happening in Nina Richards' evening here?
Nina Richards is living the dream. I mean, all of us that are Knicks fans have a dream, right? That we can know a guy who knows a guy who can get us better seats in the third quarter. And that's what's happening here.
Nina Richards is getting upgraded.
Is getting upgraded.
And so 8.43 and 40 seconds, the description reads, guy with an orange fedora hat speaks with Nina Richards briefly. It's important to point out that despite the previous mention of a fedora, this guy is absolutely not James Dolan.
This is not James Dolan, but at 8.48 and 22 seconds, dun-dun-dun, there's another hug.
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Chapter 6: How does James Dolan's management style influence security operations?
He can go with Nick, but nonetheless, okay. Or Ranger.
Could have called him Amore, you know, since he wore number one.
That's right.
So, look, here's the thing you got to understand about this night, like in particular, is like as soon as the game starts, like seconds into it, the game goes completely off the rails, right?
Yeah, there's a fight one second into the game. There's a fight 50 seconds after that. There's another fight after that. There's another fight after that. There's another... I mean, first five minutes, it's pandemonium. Yeah, it's unbelievable. And just for the visuals here, what the MSG security crew on this group chat are concerned with is something quite different. Yeah.
It's what happens in the third period after the Capitals take a significant lead.
Yeah. So, okay, here's Eversol. 9.22, just heard a sell the team. Any idea who screamed it?
I'm near 101. Didn't hear it.
9.24 p.m., now Dolan sucks.
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