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Chapter 1: What concerns does Governor Walz express about the current political climate?
I'm Anne Applebaum. Over the past year, as I watched Donald Trump demand unprecedented new powers, I wondered, don't he and his team fear that these same powers could one day be used by a different administration and a different president to achieve very different goals? Well, maybe they are afraid.
And maybe that's why they're using their new tools to change our institutions, even to alter the playing field in advance of midterm elections later this year, to make sure their opponents can't win.
Ultimately, destroying trust is the currency of autocrats. We could win, but we are very, very, very likely to lose if we keep treating this as business as usual.
reporting on the sweeping changes unfolding in our country and preparing you to think about what might happen next. The new season of Autocracy in America, available now.
This week, Donald Trump spoke on the phone with Tim Walz, the Minnesota governor he considers a political enemy. The call was something of a minor concession in a week of minor concessions. The killing of Alex Preddy by federal agents looks like a turning point.
Trump started hearing objections from everywhere, including people who normally support him — Republicans, gun rights advocates, celebrities, athletes. So the president made some moves. He ushered Greg Bovino out of Minnesota. The Department of Homeland Security said they put the two agents involved in Preti's shooting on administrative leave.
And Trump called for a, quote, big investigation into the shooting. I'm Hannah Rosen. This is Radio Atlantic. In this episode, an interview with Walls.
I was out reporting in and around Minneapolis. And this interview with Governor Walz had been set for 3 o'clock, so make my way over to the Capitol.
Atlantic staff writer Isaac Stanley Becker interviewed the governor on Wednesday to get a sense of whether he thinks the promises Trump is making will make a difference on the ground in Minnesota. Isaac, welcome to the show.
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Chapter 2: How does Governor Walz describe the impact of federal agents in Minnesota?
They would come out of there all geared up like they're in Afghanistan. They would charge people. retired teachers, nurses, students, people who were out there expressing their First Amendment rights, they would throw gas at them, they would yell at them, they would heckle, they would do all that.
Well, to try and ease this tension, we took that over, we being the state, and I sent National Guard, folks I served alongside for the years I was in,
And my first directive to them was, as I said, when you get up there, I said, you deliver donuts, you deliver hot chocolate, you deliver coffee, and you learn the names of those people who are there because they're human beings, they're your neighbors. And my guard troops are there, no masks on, names on there delivering that.
And now the protesters are asking if they can deliver food to the National Guard who are away from their family. That's how you do policing. Now, look, if those protesters do something that crosses the line, if they throw something or if they would cross that line from nonviolence, We will arrest them because we're rule of law. But rule of law means we respect their right to protest.
So there's a resiliency here, but there's just deep frustration. And I keep hearing from the White House that we need to cooperate. I don't know what you want me to say about cooperating with a force who clearly was doing everything wrong. And then before Alex's body was cold, they were sullying his name. They were saying lies. They were making outrageous comments.
And there were some news media outlets that were following along on that. This has got to end. This has got to end.
So the president didn't ask about Alex or his family. Can you just say a little bit more about what he did say? And is there anything about the conversation that surprised you? This is, if I understand it correctly, only the second time you've spoken, the first being in 2020.
I think I've spoken to him a couple of times. I've been to the White House. I spoke to him during COVID and I spoke to him in 2020. You know, like I said, he's been saying all kinds of horrible things about me and my, you know, people of Minnesota and, you know, making it clear. I mean, the one thing is he at least tells what his real issue is.
He's lost here three times and he thinks the elections. And so he has the AGS for our election rolls. Look, he said to him, this is very bad. I said, yes, it's very bad. He goes, I just don't understand you Minnesotans. This worked fine in New Orleans, worked fine in Louisville. I said, you didn't kill anybody in Louisville or New York. And you got thousands of people here, Mr. President.
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Chapter 3: What practical questions does Isaac Stanley-Becker have for Governor Walz?
And look, Minnesotans are out there saying, well, what are you going to do if they don't leave? Well, that's our next step to figure out.
What are you going to do if they don't leave and if the situation doesn't improve?
We're going to continue to go to the courts. They're going to continue to get news that shows they are more unpopular in immigration than any president in the last 50 years. This was supposedly that. And I would remind them, we had a special election here yesterday in Minnesota. The results of that race was 95 to 5. The Democrat won.
It's a pretty blue district, but I think you see what's happening here.
Was there any point where Walz felt like he could have done anything differently to de-escalate or tone things down or even prevent what happened? Because he came in, you know, somewhat hot, I would say, in his interview with you.
I think he's been pretty adamant that state and local governments have operated carefully and competently here. He was firm in his position that when it comes to immigration enforcement, they'll comply with federal law, but they're not going to go out of their way to take these steps to assist Trump's immigration enforcement operations.
I don't sure I can do much more. I'm not going to send my police in to search preschools. I'm not going to have them walk down the street and ask brown people for their papers. I'm not going to do that because that's not my job and I don't think it's constitutional.
If they want to do their job and they've operated for decades since they've been formed in Minnesota, and if you want to do it by due process with humanity, with decency and by the law, We've always worked with you. So I don't know what more they want. I'm not going to join you in battle gear with my people on the streets. I'm not going to grab five-year-olds out of daycares.
I'm just simply not going to do that. And I'm not going to not hold you accountable when you do this. I mean, can we all just ground ourselves again that after the first murder, the vice president of the United States said you have absolute immunity? I don't know if I'm Yale, I'm embarrassed. You gave a law degree for that? I don't have one and I know that's not true. But look at what he said.
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Chapter 4: What is Governor Walz's perspective on the risks of violence in Minnesota?
If it takes being in the streets till November, we'll be there. If it takes fighting them in court till November, we'll be there. And I said, just for their thing, if they want to think about this, Do you not think Minnesota is always first or second in voter turnout?
Do you not think that tens of thousands of people who stood out in 40 below zero are not going to show up in a heated voting booth to vote against this? If you're a Republican, you're going to lose. You're going to lose here. And that is going to have repercussions. And look, I'm not going to.
People can make peace with their own morality and on this, but at some point in time, these people are thinking about that and you're seeing it across there.
Chapter 5: How does Governor Walz view the response of the White House to recent events?
I think there's some that actually have conscience. I think Tom Massey I served with actually does. I think Tom Tillis, who I served with and served on committees with, I think these folks truly do have it. I think they found their spine. I think it's spreading like wildfire. And what I do know is,
If that catches a little more fire, you're gonna see the most impotent, ineffective presidency you've ever seen because it's shut down. They can shut it down. They keep asking, what are the Democrats gonna do? We need to do more. We need to do everything. Republicans can end this.
Just one more question on the National Guard. And you said people want you to order the guard to arrest the agents. Have you thought about a scenario, a kind of worst case scenario in which there's a clash between these different, you know, parts of the law?
We work at everything to avoid that. And I think following the law, and it's one thing that we've always done, I will follow the law to a T. You know, I got to spend eight hours in front of Congress talking about our state. We're not a sanctuary state. Now, do counties have the ability to make their own? Sure, they do. And that's always been Minnesota law.
They try to make the case that we're not helping we're not doing this we have we follow all the way but I said we get to this point what I told them at what point are we going to have to stand up and push back more you killed our people you closed the The crime scene and you won't tell us who they are does it strike you as strange that that I've had two of my citizens killed in one
They're angry, they being DHS and the president are angry that it feels like they got doxxed with Ross's name who killed, was part of the shooting of Renee. But I don't know who did this. I don't know if these guys are on the streets right now here in Minneapolis.
Well, so there's been reporting they were placed on administrative leave. You still don't know the names of these officers?
No, no. And I got to be honest with you, To be generous in this, I'll do my Ronald Reagan, trust but verify. I can't verify this, so I don't trust them. I don't trust them, their administrative leave. And at this point in time, I told Tom, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but unless I see a reduction in these folks on the streets, I'm going to have to say that to my folks.
So look, we all think we all want to avoid that, but I think the reality has sunk in this week. If you thought you could pass this by and you thought there was nothing there, I mean, is this a Fort Sumter, John Brown, where are we at on this? And we're doing everything right. And I have said it time and time again, the way you win this is through nonviolence, that you cannot do violence.
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