Psilocybin & Ibogaine: Can Psychedelics Cure Addiction?

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RECOVERable: Mental Health and Addiction Experts Answer Your Questions 1h 2m 2 speakers 8 chapters transcribed 1 month ago
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What are the main therapeutic potentials of psilocybin and ibogaine?

Terry McGuire 0:00
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Dr. Chantelle Thomas 0:13
Anyone who says this compound is as safe as safe can be and has not one even iota of a conversation around risk, just take that into consideration like we should with everything else.
Terry McGuire 0:27
Clinical psychologist and research facilitator Dr. Chantel Thomas joins us to discuss the therapeutic potential of psilocybin and ibogaine for treating trauma and depression. Is the use of ibogaine in these clinical settings safe?
Dr. Chantelle Thomas 0:42
Absolutely.
Terry McGuire 0:46
Hello and welcome to Recoverable. I'm your host, Terri McGuire. So in the first half of this conversation, we explored ketamine and MDMA, compounds reshaping conversations around depression, trauma, and psychedelic-assisted care. Today we turn to psilocybin and ibogaine, compounds with very different histories, effects, and treatment possibilities. We'll look at what the research suggests, where hope meets caution, and what these therapies could mean for the future of mental health and addiction treatment. Again, while we recognize that these compounds can be and are used recreationally, our focus is on psychedelic-assisted therapy. We are joined again by psychologist Dr. Chantal Thomas, a therapist, researcher, and expert in psychedelic-assisted therapy.
Terry McGuire 1:32
Thanks for continuing the conversation. Yeah, happy to be here. Thank you. So we're going to start again with a quick myth or fact and just try to run through some of the misconceptions and fears and urban legends about both Ibogaine and psilocybin. Myth or fact. If you take too high a dose of psilocybin, you can get permanently trapped in a hallucinogenic trip and never come back down.
Oh.
Dr. Chantelle Thomas 1:55
It's what came up. This came up on the internet?
Terry McGuire 1:57
It did, yes.
Dr. Chantelle Thomas 1:58
I would not say permanently trapped. That being said, I think there can be longer lasting negative effects from a very challenging trip. or a difficult experience with psilocybin that has actually been studied by, there's an individual named Jules Evans who runs the Challenging Experiences project, I think, and looks at people who've had really difficult or challenging experiences that were persisting But being trapped in the exact state that you're in in that high-dose psilocybin experience, I would say that that's not likely to happen. People will return to some sort of a baseline. For vulnerable brains or people who are predisposed to maybe even psychosis or other underlying conditions, there can be some risks of persisting effects.
Terry McGuire 2:48
Myth or fact, using ibogaine to treat an opioid addiction is just replacing one highly addictive, dangerous drug with another.
Dr. Chantelle Thomas 2:55
I would say that's a myth. The way that Ibogaine works and kind of mechanistically what's happening with it is very, very different than using opiates as part of an addictive process. And so I would say that's not true.
Terry McGuire 3:12
When I looked up the answer to the question, because I was like, oh, that's an interesting question. It said, Ibogaine is not habit-forming. In fact, the experience is so intense, exhausting, and emotionally draining that most people would never want to repeat it.
Dr. Chantelle Thomas 3:25
I think that's probably true for a lot of people, yes. Very interesting. I've seen the word grueling used a lot of times to describe an Ibogaine experience, yes.
Terry McGuire 3:34
Myth or fact? Out of the two, ibogaine carries a much higher risk of life-threatening side effects during a session than psilocybin.
Dr. Chantelle Thomas 3:41
Yeah, that is true. There's cardiotoxic effects with ibogaine that require very close monitoring. People say those risks are much lower if they're done in a medical setting, obviously, and there's close monitoring. psilocybin has not been deemed by its very nature to be organ toxic. I was in fact involved in one of the first high dose psilocybin studies, say pharmacokinetic studies here at UW Madison over 13, 14 years ago, demonstrating its safety profile across individuals that were deemed healthy. But there's still monitoring that you need to do prior to, but not continuously during the study.

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