Investigating ‘flow state’ with the bassist from Phish
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What is the concept of flow state in music?
Hey, it's Flora, and you're listening to Science Friday. Today we're revisiting this conversation that I think about all the time. It's about a musical mystery, and I hope you enjoy it. Welcome, this is a farmhouse. If you don't recognize the tune because you're too young or too old or too cool, no worries, man. It's Farmhouse by the band Phish. And tens of millions have streamed it and countless others have vibed to it during the band's legendary live shows. Fish has toured for over 40 years, and one of the draws of their performances, which can go on for many hours, are finding these moments of flow. That feeling of being locked in or in the zone. Musicians and artists talk about it. Athletes do, too.
You've probably experienced it. For Fish, it's when the band members sync up in an improvised jam and find new musical ideas in real time. Fish fans live for these transcendent moments, but so do Fish's musicians. The band is flow-seeking and flow-obsessed, to the point that Mike Gordon, the band's bassist, is funding scientific research to better understand flow state. Mike is here to tell us about this work, along with his research collaborator, neuroscientist Dr. Greg Appelbaum from the University of California, San Diego. Great to have you both here.
Thanks for having us. It's a pleasure.
Okay, Mike, when you and the band talk about flow state, is that the language that you use? What do you call it?
Huh. Well, that's a good question because it's inherently hard to talk about. It's intangible. So we're already out of the gates with a problem. And no, I don't think flow state... would be the words and the band dialect. But the band, well, first they would say, okay, we were really hooking up because the thought is that music is a communication and improvisation especially is all communicating between us and the audience, you know, riding on the energy. But so hooking up is really important and it doesn't happen readily. You have to cultivate it and train yourself to do it, to listen more than you're, you know, like in a conversation, if you only listen to yourself, then it's going to be a very bad conversation.
We've had those on Science Friday here and there. I bet.
Oops.
But what we're talking about is bigger than just communication for me. We're talking about a religious experience, transcendence, self-actualization, whatever you want to call it that can't be put into words. We don't attempt those grandiose words. Instead, we'll say, that jam was amazing. Yeah, we'll say we were so hooked up. And it's incredible that we still love each other after 40 years and that we get to do this as a job. All this will be said. But in terms of the dream states that I get into and feel, no, I don't think we use that language.
Why not? Is it just that it's too overwhelming to sort of call it what it feels like?
I don't think it's too overwhelming. I guess even though we're having the most incredible brotherly experience ever, it's still too personal because the way... That each person perceives music, whether it's one of these peak experiences or whether it's a song that strums your heartstrings. It's really different for every person. I mean, I'm probably leaving out a whole bunch of things. Like someone might say, oh, during that jam, I actually cried. Or I might say, oh, during that jam... there were about five minutes where I forgot to swallow. And for me, that's a sign that I'm really in it. But it's different for each person. So I don't know. I think it would start to, it would minimize it because words wouldn't do it justice anyway.
It's a funny question. It's a funny question to try to answer.
Does the music change when the band hooks up? And do you have an example you might walk us through?
Yeah, I mean, the music changes in so many ways, you wouldn't even believe it. Whether we're hooking up or not, it changes. For me, it's such a different band from night to night. I tell people, if I have friends who've never seen the band, I say, well, you're going to have to come two or three nights, because one night will be a jazz band, and one night will be a funky dance band, and one night will be this sort of soul-searching religious experience, and one night will just sound terrible.
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