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StarTalk Radio

Is the Universe a Math Problem? With Terence Tao

24 Feb 2026

Transcription

Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?

0.031 - 32.18 Neil deGrasse Tyson

Paul, we have revisited the universe of math. Yeah, but really drilled down and really applied ourselves. Because that's how we roll. Yeah. Coming up on StarTalk. Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist.

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32.601 - 41.886 Neil deGrasse Tyson

And we're going to have a Cosmic Queries edition on the subject of mathematics. Why are you laughing at me like that?

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41.986 - 45.19 Unknown

Apparently you're going to scare people with this.

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45.21 - 46.972 Paul Mecurio

Everybody thinks there's a math quiz coming up.

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47.012 - 54.302 Neil deGrasse Tyson

That was a Halloween laugh, wasn't it? It was. I got Paul Mercurio here. How are you doing, man? I'm good, man. Good to see you. Yeah, you got your podcast. What was it called again?

54.322 - 55.905 Paul Mecurio

Inside Out with Paul Mercurio.

55.925 - 56.285 Neil deGrasse Tyson

Inside Out.

56.325 - 62.213 Paul Mecurio

Did you get Disney permission for that? I did not. Well, thanks for bringing that up. I'm going to be getting sued right after this.

63.355 - 65.037 Neil deGrasse Tyson

And you are out of a job after May.

Chapter 2: How does mathematics relate to dark matter?

71.269 - 81.328 Paul Mecurio

Yes, the Late Show got canceled. So I work on the Late Show. You've been on the Late Show a bunch. We love you there. Yeah. Well, not everybody. No, and yeah.

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81.348 - 89.801 Neil deGrasse Tyson

You've been with... With Stephen Colbert since the Colbert Report. Since the Daily Show. The Daily Show, yes.

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89.922 - 111.493 Paul Mecurio

I started at the Daily Show as one of the original writers, performers there. He came in as a performer. You predate him on the Daily Show. I'm old school. I'm OG. And we actually shared an office together. We'd write a lot together. And then he had the Colbert Report. I worked on that. So he and I have been together a long time. And it's weird and sad, you know, because it's like...

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111.473 - 132.351 Paul Mecurio

It's not a lot of change over in the 10 years that we've been on the late show. So it's like a family breaking up, you know, it's really kind of, yeah. Okay. So I'll be at your house cutting your lawn for two bucks. Okay. I hope our guests need some help. I'll go to California. It doesn't snow out there, but I'll shovel anyway. All right. And by the way, Barron.

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132.483 - 151.03 Neil deGrasse Tyson

Oh, you did get the title of Baron. You knighted me, Baron. Only if the people asking questions remember that. That's where that comes from. You'll find out. So who do we have today? I love me some mathematics. Yeah, this is fascinating. Ever since high school. Brilliant. I've been a big fan of mathematics. Even the obscure math that doesn't relate to anything ever, but it's still fun.

151.19 - 161.263 Paul Mecurio

Yeah. But, of course... Well, initially you like math because there's a finality to it, but then when you really get into it, you realize there's a whole... bunch of non-finality to it. It can take you everywhere, right?

161.283 - 186.022 Neil deGrasse Tyson

Yeah, yeah, everywhere and anywhere and everywhere. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So, you know what we found? We found like a badass mathematician. Ooh. Yeah. That sounds like a good movie title. Is he also an assassin? We cannot divulge that publicly. We have Terence Tao. Terence, did I pronounce your name correctly? That's correct. Yes, please speak up. No, that's wrong.

186.062 - 187.264 Paul Mecurio

That's not how you pronounce your name.

188.967 - 216.265 Neil deGrasse Tyson

You are professor of mathematics at UCLA. That is not a community college in Oxnard. Yeah, UCLA Community College. You're professor of mathematics at... UCL, that's officially University of California, Los Angeles. Yes, it is. And here's the best part. Director of Special Projects at IPAM, Institute for Pure and Applied Mathematics.

Chapter 3: What are the differences between pure and applied mathematics?

1552.685 - 1561.714 Terence Tao

And they said, thank you very much. And I didn't hear from them for two years. And then this movie came out. So I was caught unawares. But it did actually come from me.

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1561.694 - 1566.98 Neil deGrasse Tyson

So before we go to our question base, there's one more. Just tell me about the Erdos problems.

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1567.661 - 1585.44 Terence Tao

Right. So Paul Erdős was this Hungarian mathematician. He was rather extreme. So mathematicians have a reputation for being a little idiosyncratic, but he was rather extreme even among mathematicians. He didn't own a home. He would travel the world constantly and crash on other mathematicians' couches basically for his whole life.

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1585.42 - 1605.943 Terence Tao

But while doing so, he would talk math with them, and they would often write papers. He has like 2,000 or 3,000 papers. He's one of the most prolific mathematicians in history. And he was famous for posing problems that he would attach little cash prizes to often. Like, here's a little problem I just came up with. You get $25 or something if you can solve this problem.

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1605.923 - 1617.859 Terence Tao

And in fact, many of these problems did get solved and Erdős would send them a check with that amount of money. But these checks were almost never cashed because they were more valuable framed on the wall as someone who had solved an Erdős problem.

1617.879 - 1618.68 Neil deGrasse Tyson

I want to be that famous.

1618.72 - 1628.252 Paul Mecurio

I can pay people and they don't cash the check. Well, maybe if Mr. Smarty Pants cashed the checks, he could buy himself a house and not have to sleep in other people's bedrooms. No.

1628.232 - 1642.932 Terence Tao

That's all I'm saying. There's a biography of Paul Erdos called The Man Who Loved Only Numbers. And that is a pretty good description of it. I met him once and basically the entire conversation was about math. It was not one for small talk or anything.

1643.092 - 1652.156 Neil deGrasse Tyson

From my notes here, we have problem 1026. Is that the correct way to say that? And was that an Erdos problem? Right.

Chapter 4: How do mathematicians approach unsolved problems?

3077.335 - 3092.496 Terence Tao

So while people attempt to do these calculations, there's just so many gaps and sort of implicit biases in how you choose which universes, you know, maybe some hypotheses you have implicitly set up to fail, or some that you're biased to make succeed.

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3092.476 - 3107.479 Paul Mecurio

You can't do it because if you're trying to prove that it's fake, the proof that you have is fake. So you're caught in this loop. Why would the proof be fake? Because you're within a simulation that's fake. So the proof within the simulation is fake, right?

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3108.02 - 3108.921 Terence Tao

Isn't that the argument?

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3108.941 - 3116.553 Paul Mecurio

I mean, it's got the same credibility as an email from a Nigerian prince at this point, right? That's very dated. Yeah. Thank you.

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3116.573 - 3124.145 Neil deGrasse Tyson

That's like from 10 years ago. How about Amazon support? How about that? You're still getting Nigerian Prince emails? I am. That was like from 1994. He doesn't have any friends.

3124.205 - 3132.658 Paul Mecurio

Like two years after email. If this were fake, the proof would be fake, which means that reality is not reality. So we don't even know if we're in reality.

3132.638 - 3140.147 Terence Tao

Right. So you could never rule out a hypothesis with 100% certainty, because whatever data you have collected could itself be faked, as you said.

3141.048 - 3160.992 Terence Tao

But it just may take enormous effort, like if you collect more and more data, and it keeps pointing to a different hypothesis that the universe is real, you know, whoever's doing the simulation will have to keep faking more and more data to consistently do a completely different outcome. And at some point, it's just why would they go through so much effort?

3160.972 - 3188.556 Neil deGrasse Tyson

So there's another pathway into this, which is when you program a world, there's a part of the program where you set up the basic parameters for it. You know, how big is it? How old is it? What's the passage of time? Population. You just set it up and you take it from there. Well, in our world, we can measure, for example, the energy of cosmic rays. Just take that as a thing.

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