Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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I'm Stephen Curry, and this is Gentleman's Cut. I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of developing the profile of this beautiful finished product. With every sip, you get a little something different.
Visit Gentleman'sCutBourbon.com for your nearest Total Wines or BevMo. This message is intended for audiences 21 and older. Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, Boone County, Kentucky. For more on Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, please visit Gentleman'sCutBourbon.com. Please enjoy responsibly. Hi, Kyle.
Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan, just one page, as a Google Doc, and send me the link? Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one-page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. I'm Evan Ratliff, here with a story of entrepreneurship in the AI age.
Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by fake people. Check out the second season of my podcast, Shell Game, on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro. We were in the car, like a rolling stone came on, and he said, there's a line in there about your mother. And I said, what?
What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have. I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened. These are just a few of the moving and important stories on my 13th season of Family Secrets.
Listen to Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Good day, everyone. This is Chuck here on a Saturday with a Selects episode about conversion therapy. Boo. And you know what? Regardless of what you think about conversion therapy, it doesn't work. And so that's why this episode is titled How Conversion Therapy Doesn't Work from November 2019.
And if you're wondering before you listen, what is conversion therapy? That's when parents try to make their children Let's just put it in that whole bucket. Child, not that. And it's just not possible because that's who they are. So I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you don't, keep it to yourself. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's guest producer Josh over there. Don't be confused, everybody. There are more than one Josh in the world. It's nice to hear you finally admit that. It's taken a long time. A lot of therapy. Hey, nice segue. It's like a short stuff. I'm like, let's get to it. Let's get going. Well, I have a COA to issue. Okay.
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Chapter 2: What is conversion therapy and why is it considered ineffective?
And she put a lot of this stuff together for us. Yeah, she did a good job on this. I like the additional histories you found out, though. Yeah, because this, so we'll define it first and then we'll talk about some histories. But this stuff goes back way further than you would think. But what we're talking about today is called conversion therapy, reparative therapy, ex-gay therapy.
Reparative therapy is trademarked, by the way, we should say. Well, you couldn't hear it, but under my breath I said TM. More like TS. Yeah, it was trademarked by a psychologist named Joseph Nicolosi Sr. So what conversion therapy is probably what we're going to mostly call it, though. What it is is it's an alleged psychological theory and practice. Mm-hmm.
That is based on the idea that all people are born heterosexual. Right. And because of certain events. Past traumas usually. Traumas typically, but also the family dynamics play a huge role. Yeah. people who would otherwise are meant to be heterosexual can be accidentally steered into homosexuality. And therefore can be purposefully steered back. Right. Cured. Yes, cured. Of being gay. Right.
Back to the righteous land of heterosexuality. Yeah. And as you can imagine that this is a very popular with the fundamentalist Christian right. Sure. And I mean like that's not even like a guess. Like it overtly is. They've adopted and taken on ex-gay, the ex-gay movement as basically one of the ā what's it called in a tent pole? A tent post? Sure.
One of the planks in the Christian rights platform for social change. Oh, it is a ā it was officially part of the 2016 Republican Party platform even.
What?
That's right. Wait, the whole RNC? Yeah, which has been called ā the 2016 platform has been called by far the most anti-LGBTQ platform in the nation's history. Wow. I mean, yeah, if that's a plank in the party's platform, that's pretty significant. Like they don't throw just anything in there. No, they don't.
So with the ex-gay movement and conversion therapy, I saw it described at least back in the late 90s as a front in the culture war that's as strong and as significant as abortion. Like the Christian right in particular has basically dedicated itself to stamping out gayness And by converting gay people to straightness.
The problem is there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that that is even possible. Right. And the problem is when you try and stamp out gayness, that creates a good beat that you can dance to. It makes that sound. They're like, no, no, no, no, no. Stop stamping. Yeah, exactly. Actually, I went to ā well, should I say this? Oh, I don't know.
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Chapter 3: What historical context surrounds conversion therapy?
Like the science is not adding up. This is just incorrect. Yeah. There were medical doctors, too, though. It wasn't just psychologists. Right. Sure. Yeah. So eventually in 1973, the American Psychological Association said, hey, big news. We're no longer going to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder. Right. And a certain part of the population went, yeah, it's 1972.
Why did it take this long? Right. Exactly. Yeah. But that was a big deal. And at that point, psychology mostly abandoned the idea that being gay was a disorder of any kind. And therefore, there was no point in researching how to cure someone of being gay. And so it turned its back on this whole history of conversion. Conversion, yeah. But it didn't fully die away.
And I believe starting in like the 80s, the Christian right started to kind of pick up on it and kind of breathe new life into it again. That's right. Think we should take a break? Yeah. That's a robust and a half setup. Is that? Oh, I thought we were already into it. Oh, my gosh. No, it wasn't just the setup. It was more. You're right. We'll be right back. check stuff you should
I'm Stephen Curry, and this is Gentleman's Cut. I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of developing the profile of this beautiful finished product. With every sip, you get a little something different.
Visit Gentleman'sCutBourbon.com for your nearest Total Wines or BevMo. This message is intended for audiences 21 and older. Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, Boone County, Kentucky. For more on Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, please visit Gentleman'sCutBourbon.com. Please enjoy responsibly. Who would you call if the unthinkable happened? I just fell and started screaming.
If you lost someone you loved in the most horrific way? I sat through with y'all 22 times. The police, right? But what if the person you're supposed to go to for help is the one you're the most afraid of? This dude is the devil. He's a snake. He'll hurt you.
I got you, I got you, I got you.
I'm Nikki Richardson, and this is The Girlfriends Untouchable. Detective Roger Golubsky spent decades intimidating and sexually abusing Black women across Kansas City, using his police badge to scare them into silence. This is the story of a detective who seemed above the law until we came together to take him down.
I told Roger Golubsky, I said, you're going to see my face till the day that you die. Listen to The Girlfriends, Untouchable, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Dad had the strong belief that the devil was attacking us. Two brothers, one devout household, two radically different paths.
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Chapter 4: What are the harmful techniques used in conversion therapy?
Right. And not doing the things that he's getting punished for. Exactly. The punishment is what stood out to me. It's just so sad that the mother was instructed to reject him, to basically ignore him when he acted like a girl, but not ignore him, like pretend it's not going on, like let him know that she is giving him the cold shoulder and that that's how he learned. Right. Um,
That is just devastating. It's heartbreaking. And what's heartbreaking is this was used as an example. Like, see, this works. This four-and-a-half-year-old is now acting more masculine and is not going to grow up to be gay. And this child died by suicide at the age of 30. Yeah. Like that's the end result of this road. That's where it ends up.
And that's what I meant earlier when I said like it does kind of work because it follows psychological techniques that actually work. But it works in like kind of a bent way where, yes, you can train somebody. You can mold a four-year-old to behave in a certain way by conditioning them. It's possible. You can get somebody to do just about anything.
anything like that yeah but the ramifications the results the damage to the individual's identity that will eventually come out later are widespread and sweeping yeah and that's the point that's why you shouldn't monkey around with somebody's identity using proven psychological techniques that's what's so evil about the whole thing Yeah. I mean my daughter is four and a half.
I had a hard time even getting through this stuff. And then also if somebody ā this is the other thing too. If you're a conversion therapy advocate or activist or practitioner and you say, no, there are people out there who are distressed, who are experiencing psychological distress for being gay. Yes, that's true. I guarantee that there are people like that out there.
But directing them toward working on not being gay is not the answer. Yeah, go to regular therapy. And learn to love that you're gay. And go find a church that accepts gay people. There's step two. Yeah, because they're out there. Let's talk about the science of it because theā We are so contributing to a decadent society.
In 2009, there was a report from the APA Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation. Quite a read. And this was the actual final stance was sexual orientation change efforts can pose critical health risks to lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. Critical health risks. Not emotional. I mean it's part of emotional health too. But critical health risks.
And if you read the ā The review of research and peer-reviewed literature and the findings of what it can result in, it reads like the worst pharma ad disclaimer you've ever heard. Depression, guilt, helplessness, hopelessness, shame, self-hatred, hostility, dehumanization, betrayal, social withdrawal, substance abuse, stress, sexual dysfunction, loss of faith, and suicidality.
And on that last note, homosexual teens attempt suicide more often than heterosexual teens. And then among those homosexual teens, you're twice as likely to try that if your parents have rejected you and three times as likely if you have undergone conversion therapy. Three times as likely. Yes. Compared to a heterosexual teen. That's right. Man. Man. Well, there you have it.
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