Why Are Vegans So Annoying? | Jack Symes Surrounded Follow-up
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What moral weight does animal suffering hold compared to human suffering?
How many cows dying is as bad as someone getting gassed in Auschwitz? The pain of the cow is worth just as much as the pain of the human being. In terms of pain, it's one for one. I think quitting meat's a lot harder, a lot easier than like not consuming pornography or not smoking. I think not consuming meat is way easier than those things and people just need to go like, right, I'll stop.
That's kind of crazy to me, but... Dr. Jack Symes, welcome back to Jubilee for the Surrounded follow-up. How are you feeling after your episode?
Feeling great. I really enjoyed it.
How does quitting meat compare to other lifestyle changes?
It was good fun. I always love chatting about veganism. The first time I've done like... a debate probably at that length in that style. They are a chef with it. And it was good to see you on the opposite chair as well. Defending, defending meat-eating or at least posing some questions. So there are some first times for everything. And I really enjoyed it.
Yeah, no, it was, I really enjoyed that episode. For whatever reason, veganism is a topic that sparks a lot of fire and fury on the internet, from my experience. Do you, as you know, an advocate for the cause, does that ring true to you?
Yeah, people don't like to be told that what they've been doing for the whole life is wrong, and why would they? I think it taps into an evolutionary thing. If me and you were out hunting and you were chasing one boar and me the other, if I said to you, why are you chasing that boar? You best have a good reason for it. I don't want to be out hunting with somebody who just does whatever the body feels. I want someone to act on reason, to be sensible. So you offer this justification after the fact. And so I think veganism is really interesting because it captures so many of like... different philosophical problems with people knowing what they should do and then doing otherwise. Because everyone sort of agrees on the big main point, which is let's stop factory farming.
And, you know, I'd stripple to find anybody who says, no, I love factory farming. I think you should carry on. but it's a view I never encounter. So yeah, people don't like being told that they've been doing something wrong forever, but I think that just brings out a certain emotion and exciting debate.
Yeah. All right, so I'm going to pull up the first clip. Are you ready to react? And I think you would... I got my cow mug.
What sparked the debate on veganism's impact on health?
It's a happy cow as well. I thought this was appropriate.
Yeah, it's cute. I like it.
OK, so the first clip, this is going to be with you and Nicole. And so I think this was I couldn't tell if you were enjoying this, but this is you and Nicole. And she's kind of she's poking fun at the debate. I think so.
Killing plants is murder, though.
Oh, dude, don't do this.
Come on, you're joking. You're tripping.
You're ripping it from the ground. You're ripping it from its mother. It's murder. And I enjoy the trivial pleasure of doing what the lions, what the hyenas, what the tigers have done for history.
So you think plants can feel pain?
Yes, they can.
So you want to reduce that pain?
You know why? Because I have an azalea, and when I don't give it enough light, that thing dies, so it feels it. So plants have feelings too.
Do you think we should reduce the amount of pain that plants are experiencing?
Yes, we should. Plants matter. Hashtag plants matter.
So according to Hannah Ritchie 2022, you get a 75% reduction in all of the land that you need for farming. So given the fact you're getting 40 to 1 in your calories and 30 to 1 in your protein from plants to animals then slaughtered, you get a 75% decrease in the plants that you're going to kill if you go vegan.
This is how we've been living for history. And I have to say this. When I go and don't give my fern enough light, it feels. When I don't give it any water, it feels.
That was fun. That was Nicole. I felt like you were being pretty patient. It seemed like you were trying to argue. She was coming in with a bit. But my interpretation of that bit is... you know, the argument for veganism is sort of too precious. Like if we over empathize or with anything, we can kind of find cause for concern.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What moral weight does animal suffering hold compared to human suffering?
0:00–0:34
2
How does quitting meat compare to other lifestyle changes?
0:34–2:24
3
What sparked the debate on veganism's impact on health?
2:24–4:28
4
What are the arguments for and against the moral implications of veganism?
4:28–7:58
5
How does the discussion address the environmental impact of meat consumption?
7:58–10:48
6
What philosophical arguments are made about the value of human versus animal life?
10:48–13:27
7
How do personal experiences shape views on veganism?
13:27–17:22
8
What practical steps can individuals take towards a plant-based diet?
17:22–1:04:36
Speakers
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