Chapter 1: Do you need separate salt shakers for meat and milk?
I'm going to talk about whether you need separate salt shakers for milchis and fleishigs. If you look up the halachas of salt shakers, you know, you Google it or something, you'll find, like, it's an issue in Hilcha Shabbos. What's the issue in Hilcha Shabbos? Borer, because they put the rice in the salt shaker, right? But you don't find much in terms of kashas.
Chapter 2: What are the halachic issues related to salt shakers?
Even if you look in Hilchas Basu Bechalav, you will find that there is a comment that the Ramah has about a salt dish,
but that is not the halacha in basa b'cholav that's actually relevant to our salt shakers in the very end of simon pei chas Ramat says that there's a minach to have separate salt shakers salt dishes for milking and placing because when you dip your food in the salt some of the food remains in the salt now that obviously doesn't relate to our salt shakers because we don't dip our food in the salt we shake the salt into the food they used to have little salt dishes that they would dip into so that doesn't relate at all to our salt shakers so maybe there's no issue at all
with salt shakers and spices and stuff without the salt. It's any spices. What might the issue be? So there is a concept in halacha called Zeya. Zeya means steam. You see, most of the halachas of Basav B'chol is related to if a drop of milk or a drop of meat hits the pot of the other men of the other gender and how does it affect the food and how does it affect the pot?
But what if it's not a drop of milk or a drop of meat? It is the steam that's created by heating up milk or the steam that's created by heating up meat. What would the status of that be? Steam B. So that is the issue called Zeya. Steam is Zeya. So there is a tshuva of the rush, where the rush brings a raya. You know, it's amazing.
There is a gemara explicitly that talks about using the same oven for a milchig and flesh. And that Gemara does not raise the issue of Zeya. The Gemara only raises the issue of Recha. Whether Recha Milsa, Recha Lav Milsa. It doesn't even talk about steam. But nevertheless, the Rosh brings a Raya from a Mishnah, I believe in the Seches Machshirin, where the Mishnah seems to assume...
that there is validity, not just validity, that the steam of something is like that item. So the steam of a liquid with regard to Tumenta Hara is considered to be like the liquid that it comes from. Another possible Raya is based on the Sugi Masach Eschulun that talks about
a tipas chalav that falls into a meat pot, and even if it falls above the level of the food in the pot, if you shake up the kederah, it can become batel b'shishim, and the Gemara says, even if you put a kisoy on top of the kederah, you put a cover on the pot, that's like you shook it up, that's like you mixed up the whole thing. So don't you see, what happens when you put a cover on the pot?
It contains the... Steam, right? So did it really mix? No, it's just the steam that was contained within the pot. So apparently the steam is considered like the item itself and therefore you can have thistle from just the steam alone. So that all seems to suggest that steam is a significant issue. What does that do, salt shakers?
Because if you take your, what's the most common thing that people put salt in at the table? Soup, right? You have a soup, you taste it, it's not salty enough, and soup tends to be served hot, right? So very often you can see the steam rising from the soup, and you put the, you shake the salt into the soup, and what's going to happen?
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Chapter 3: How does Zeya (steam) affect kashrut?
If you're talking about the steam that the Mishnah is talking about, that seems to be more an open area. But at least it's a Tzad L'Hakkel, the Bach is mekil, that steam only applies when it's in an enclosed area, not when it's in an open area.
The Ramah doesn't seem to hold that way, because the Ramah in Shulchan Aruch in Yardeah talks about cooking a fleshig dish, a milchig dish rather, and having meat hanging over your stove. And the Ramah says that the only reason it's mutzah is because usually by the time the milchig the steam gets to the meat, it's already not yet solid, it's already cooled off, so you can just wipe it off.
But if it were hot, it would, in fact, affect that meat, and therefore one needs to be careful about that. So, now, over a stove sounds like it's in an open area, and yet the Ramah is still machmir about that, but at least that's a second Sniflal HaKaliyah of the Bach that holds that in an open area, we're not concerned about steam.
Also, the original case of Zeya in the Chuvah Sarash was about the item that was actually being hit directly by the Zeya. It was not talking about Zeya going up and hitting the ceiling of an oven and then dripping back down. So that's the saldakula that would apply to an oven, but over here by the salt, we are actually concerned about the item that's being hit directly by the Zeya.
And then a fourth thing to consider before we talk about salt shakers in particular is that the B'rim G'adim brings a raya from the Lashon HaRamban that Zayah of a food, as opposed to a drink, as opposed to a liquid, Zayah of a food is not called Zayah. The foods don't really produce steam.
meaning, steam doesn't mean anytime there's any sort of steam coming up from the food, it means when there's a significant amount of steam. Solid foods don't produce nearly as much steam as liquids do, and therefore whatever steam you see coming out of the solid food is halachically not considered to be steam. The Turin Hill professor
talks about bread giving off Zeya and using the item that the Zeya went into for Pesach, clearly assuming that there is Zeya even in bread, which is a dry food, so clearly not like that. And the Tshuva says that we should Paschan like the tour in this case. But maybe we can argue that it would only be a problem of zea on a solid food if you actually see the zea coming from the food.
Most of the time, solids don't give off steam, so you can work with the assumption that it's not steaming unless you see that it is steaming. So if you want to make cookies in a flasher garden,
with the intention of eating it with milk, according to Rav Moshe, it would be mutzah, as long as there's no fleshing in the oven at the time that you make the cookies in there, because what are you worried about? The steam of the cookies going into the oven, and there's no steam of cookies, unless you see the steam of the cookies.
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Chapter 4: What does the Gemara say about using the same oven for meat and milk?
But the actual moisture that is the steam will still be there. So you can have actual ba'ed. Meaning when the Ramas said, don't worry about the meat that's hanging over the stove top, because it's not Yad Tzolotl. So Mikra Adin, you wouldn't have to worry about it, because by the time the milchig steam hits the meat,
it would be okay, that means that you would still have to wipe down the meat because it still has the cold steam on it. Cold steam is also a problem because it's still the actual food, and there's no way to wipe down each kernel of salt.
Kernel of salt? I don't know what you would call it. Grain. Each grain of salt, right? There's no way to wipe down each grain of salt after the steam has already entered it. So the Badr Shulchan writes that you do need two separate groups of spices, one for meat, one for milk,
And even if you hold the salt very high over the steaming food, at a point that the steam is no longer yet to let it, the steam enters the small dispenser holes, and it condenses, and therefore it could happen by both pleasure and milk, and you'll have a basa b'chol problem. However, other posts are not so convinced. Some suggest,
that as long as you're using it high up enough, first of all, you know it's not going to be Yad Tzoledos problem. How do I know that it's not Yad Tzoledos when I'm shaking the spices into the pot? Because the spices are not floating magically. I'm holding them with my hand. And obviously, I'm able to hold my hand there. So whatever steam is coming up is not Yad Tzoledos anyway.
Second of all, it's an open area. And maybe we can be making that it's an open area. Third of all, that there's no steam at all anyway. That steam is not an issue at all. Fourth, we can perhaps rely on the idea that what's happening with those holes in the spice shakers when you're shaking out spice, there's spice coming out of those holes. So it could be that while spice is pouring out,
steam is not able to get in. Those salts are being filled with the spices that are coming out. So it could be that steam is unable to make its way into the salt shaker. In fact, if steam did make its way into the salt shaker, then it should cause the salt to stick together much more than it actually does.
So it doesn't seem that a significant amount of steam, or at least significant enough to pull its steam, Chef likes to say that Zeh is not really an issue. It's more like Hevel is the issue, where it's like really, really thick steam. So that would seem that you actually have that. But when the spout of the spices is a very big opening, you ever see anyone ever cook over here?
So you have like the big things of spice. So on one side, you have all the little dots, right? And on the other side... It's like wide open. First of all, never use that side if you're not an experienced cook. The whole thing will end up in the... Okay, that's just... That has nothing to do with halacha.
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