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Chapter 1: What are the key matchups in the European finals this weekend?
Hello and welcome to the Counter-Rocker Rugby Podcast brought to you by the Irish Times in partnership with Oak Energy. European Finals weekend is here. Ulster Montpellier on the Friday night in the Challenge Cup and Leinster against Bordeaux on the Saturday as Leo Cullen's side looks to break their finals hoodoo and win their coveted fifth European crown.
Gordon Darcy is here with me to preview all the action. Darce, hello. How are things? We're much closer to what is all of a sudden becoming, well, it's a game that's looming into view. It's funny, I remember once we saw the draw, we knew it was Bordeaux. I think this game didn't quite have as much hype because Leinster are not going into it as favourites and there's almost a...
I've resigned acceptance among some people that they are going to be up against it.
Chapter 2: How has Leinster's pressure impacted their performance in finals?
But it's almost as if as things get closer, people get more optimistic. There's more positive chatter about, you know, if this doesn't go right and the pressure that will come on once again. And will this whole cycle repeat itself? It's been a strange old build up, but we're here and we're a couple of days out now.
Yeah, I think there's less expectation with this time because, as you said, you're not coming in as favourites. So that makes it a really interesting place for supporters and everything. So when you start having, as I've had a few times this week, you start having kind of long conversations. You almost start, you kind of flip between, I suppose, people who are really into rugby now.
you're almost they're trying to be overly analytical and they're almost finding reasons why leinster won't win kind of with the fingers crossed behind their back when you're just talking to a fan or somebody who's just you know a supporter they start you start finding it's almost the opposite you start finding reasons to go you're going like you're almost talking yourself into the win so it's really uh i find that dynamic really interesting i was on a panel earlier in the week and
Bernie Jackman was one of the panelists. And, you know, he's looking at it absolutely dispassionately and kind of saying, oh, you know, it has to be a massive outperformance for Leinster to win that game. And he probably is right on balance. I'm, yeah, I'm kind of, as always, trying to be glass half full. I'd love to be in that changing room this week.
Why is that? I mean, Leinster's relationship with pressure has been a fascinating one over the last couple of years. You'd forgive them if there's almost just, again, that crippling nervous energy just because this has become a self-fulfilling prophecy of them getting to big European days and big finals and falling up short.
That can't be a good place to be if that nervous energy is flying about the place.
Yeah, I just, I feel there's more of a resignation and with that comes a little bit of freedom that you're not in control of everything. And I think maybe Leinster have been guilty of that and trying to
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Chapter 3: What factors contribute to Leinster's cautious optimism this year?
it's being too cute is the wrong way of saying it but they've tried to do too much or they've tried to control too much and there's a kind of a yeah just that resignation of that that they're not in control of everything and that can be quite freeing as a player because you just say okay we will just control what we can control and
play our best game, everybody be ready, be right, not get tight in the game, enjoy it, that kind of thing, that kind of a mindset. And that frees them up an awful lot to go in and just to swing for the rope. And I've been that player where you understand that you're not in control of everything. We just say going, okay, well,
All I have to do is trust that the guy on my left and my right is going to be as well prepared as they can be. They're going to fight for their life in this game. And that's all I have to do. And when you get that right, it's kind of the thing I've talked about a couple of times and I've written about. It's like getting the head right so the body follows. So I think that is a really...
really good place. You talk about that Munster attitude that they had when they were at their peak in the 2000s where they just created that feeling that nobody backed them and they had that chip on their shoulder and they loved that underdog's mindset. I think Leinster have embraced it a little bit. I don't necessarily think it's an underdog mindset.
I think they have embraced the fact that people have written them off
Oh, they've definitely gone with the siege mentality.
I mean... No, but I think it's more fundamental than a siege mentality. That is... Siege mentality is... That's a team under pressure. That's a team that are scrapping for... You know, you could say that about Wales.
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Chapter 4: How does Leinster's mindset differ from previous years?
That's a siege mentality. This is a team who's on the cusp of winning. It's more fundamental than that.
Interesting. I mean, my take on it was, you look at what Leo Collins said about everyone putting the boot in them after the too long game. There's been a few players coming out and saying, yeah, we know people like to write us off quickly.
I always remember, and it was last year, so maybe not as relevant, but I always remember the Joe McCarthy TV interview where he literally said, we know everyone hates us. And presumably the main reason why you would kind of get players believing that is because, again, it frees them up. It means, well, look, everybody's writing you off. Nobody says you have a chance.
Just go out there and express yourselves because you've got nothing to lose almost.
Yeah, I think you have to channel it a little bit more than just, you know, being angry. The days of the look at the newspaper column up on the changing room walls and sell tape to it going, this is what they're saying about us and that's enough to get you over the...
to get you over the line, that's short of the stereotypical GAA manager shouting at players 15 minutes before they go out and lads headbutting the waltz. That's not what we're talking about here for this game. I think that drive to succeed is channeling the disappointment of the last five or six years into something more than just trying to win a final. So it's that bigger purpose.
And I think that's where they've got it, that bigger focus, which is around this is more than just winning the final. This is about rewriting the history books, all of those things. And I think it's given them a real...
focus and a reason where all that effort is going to and why do we kind of have a really positive feeling about that right because we don't have it's one of the things I wrote in the column this week it's very hard to pinpoint what Leinster are really good at other than they're just really hard to beat on that though because again yeah I'll read that bit out actually that you wrote on Wednesday
So what strikes me most about this Leinster group is how difficult they are to define. You can articulate clearly what Bordeaux do well, what Toulouse or Ulster bring, what La Rochelle or Saracens are built on.
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Chapter 5: What challenges does Ulster face against Montpellier?
We're getting off the line and we're turning breakdowns into, and this is their phrase now, a shit fight. That was kind of their communication style. That was what their focus was. They still obviously defend like that, but I wonder why it is that people have gone away from focusing on that to define them. Is it because they're trying to be more all-around, more all-court?
The attack has maybe improved slightly? I don't know. Or is it a case of they've just dropped off and gotten away? I guess maybe part of the answer comes on Saturday, whether we can't define them because they've gone away from that defensive heavy focus or because other things have also... gone up and we just, it's not as prominent, if that makes sense.
The reason why there's all these things with Nienan Bar, right? So Nienan Bar brought in a, and I've said this about him, he brought in a South African philosophy into a Irish team
and they worked on the actual technical piece of that high blitz line it wasn't natural to them like it really wasn't natural to them but yet they all got behind it and they bought into it and you know what and it looked really really good at times another piece of that was they absolutely sacrificed their attacking ambition and their attacking flair for that type of defense now
What I think is very, very different this season is the bit with that defence is the scramble. And the scramble, you cannot coach. You cannot train. It has to come from within. And I think the desperation that is within all of these players has shone through this season in particular. So that's why I think there's just something different.
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Chapter 6: How important is player fitness in Ulster's chances?
You look at the South Africans, you look at when you see Razzy and when Nienanbar was there and you look at them in the last World Cup and everything. It's that absolute pure selflessness for the team. Now, I'm not suggesting for a moment that Leinster weren't that. I think they had it really good, but I think they were a much more technical team than South Africa.
And they've moved away from that. And this is the third year now with this type of defensive style. But if you look at the sheer desperation they have in tackle, in rucks and things like that, the fundamentals, the zero talent moments, the... Those ones, I think that has gone up a notch this year. So arguably a poorer team on paper this year, but are delivering, are harder to beat this year.
Interesting. OK, so when you say you find it hard to define this Leinster side or what they're about, you're not saying that's necessarily a bad thing.
no i think it's i think it's like they're really bloody hard to uh to beat the mindset that was required to win just based on what ninambar sorry that's like ninambar like ninambar like he's not a magician like what he what he brought into leinster was a new philosophy and defense and it was really good i think the balance was off because the attack dropped
You look how different their attack was four years ago, three years ago, versus how it is four years ago, five years ago, versus it was. You look at the difference Geordie Barrett made to the attack last year. Don't mention the war with Geordie Barrett, but if you look at the difference that he made to that Leinster backline.
But there was such a sea change in the approach to their defense that I don't think they had the understanding of what the total, what the commitment level to that type of defense requires. Whereas this year, you have it. You look at what won them the game. People look at that, look at the Toulon game and go, oh, you know, you nearly lost it.
I'm looking at that going, look at what Joe McCarthy did.
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Chapter 7: What strategies should Ulster employ to succeed in the final?
Look at what Ricky Urbano did in the final game.
minutes to win that game it's like that's everything you want in a in a in a team so there's been moments like that all the way through the season and from different players so I think it's really I think there's yeah it's that to me is why I'm saying that's where I'd love to be at that change during this week because there's a real steeliness about it where everybody looks like they're on the same page and I really like that
I've been in that changing room before.
Interesting. And I guess, again, if you were to continue to pull it at that thread, that South African style, that scramble desperation, they won the last World Cup. I think every knockout game was won by one point. I mean, they were flying by the seat of their pants there as well, which has been, that's been the criticism level at Leinster this year is that
They haven't gone through these knockouts with particular comfort. You know, it was tricky against Edinburgh and Sale. And like you said, if Joe McCarthy didn't make that scramble, that offload goes to hand and Toulon would probably win that game. But I guess it depends on your perspective. Is that just a sign of a winning team or is that a sign of an average team getting by?
You know, you look at it, if Rocky Elmson hadn't erred on the side of being offside in that...
harlequins oh it was the monster match uh then in harlequins he doesn't do his moment of magic do we win that game probably not did we deserve to win that game that's not a strong memory i have rocky elson being offside was that it was at a moment of controversy at the time or is that just something that you remember he busted cut to get back in crow park and it was a try saving tackle and he was clearly off he was three
offside but his work rate to get there was so sorry it wasn't clearly offside but his work rate was so incredible off the ball to get back there he shut down like a four on two or so I think and it was just an incredible textbook tackle got Stephen Ferris man on ball and shut down the attack and that could have changed the whole swing of that game
Just those times in 2009 in the group stages where you're just there going, yeah, we rode our luck. In every tournament, you ride your luck.
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Chapter 8: What historical lessons can Leinster learn from past finals?
You mentioned Geordie Barrett provided an uptick. Has it improved in the last few knockout games with Harry Byrne running the show?
I think there's a better balance, and I think it hasn't improved. It's trending in the right direction. I like the way that Harry Burnett gauges the line as 10, because that's where the space is. You have to have a first receiver now that can take space when it's given. You look at the...
You look at the quintessential tent in modern rugby today, and it is Jalabair, it is Ant-Mac, it is Marcus Smith. Look at Jack Crowley, so both bars. You have to have that ability. Take it to the line and then be a distributor. And I think Harry Byrne and Frawley give you that option. See, Harry Byrne's game management is probably a little bit better. And I think he's going to be better for it.
for the semi-final run out and realising you know what I didn't have a great game by my own standards I didn't have a particularly poor game the sun came up the next day Leinster still won the game and he will be better for that pressure for that pressure that taste of the pressure environment and hopefully I hope that he went away and realised that actually I quite liked being there because you have to like being there you have to enjoy that pressure cooker
That was something that really struck me when you were talking about it recently. The first time you lost a big game and I can't remember, somebody's turned around to you and said, well, you have to enjoy it to come back. You have to have enjoyed being in that moment, even if it didn't necessarily go your way. I found that really, really interesting.
And it was a junior cup match. But it was the injustice of it all because we were down in Cladair. We were training ourselves. We were doing everything. And you have such a confirmation bias that you think you're doing everything right. And then you go, it's exactly like that Mike Tyson quote. You think, you know, everybody has a plan to get punched in the face.
And Black Rock punched us in the face and we had nothing.
absolutely nothing scrambling everywhere chipping from behind my own goal line and not actually i was playing at half of the time not a clue what was going on what to do where to go i just completely beat so i remember it so it's been back in school and you know it's february and your season's over and just chatting to the coach at the time and their prefect frank kelly and he
I was fully giving up rugby. I was like, I can't do this. This is just, it's not fair. And I love just how he, I can't remember exactly what he said, but the sentiment was basically, you've had a bad day, but there will be good days. You've got to be willing to come back for the good days and have the bad days as well.
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