Chapter 1: What happened in the European finals for Leinster and Ulster?
Hello and welcome to the Counter-Rug Rugby Podcast brought to you by the Irish Times in partnership with Oak Energy. After Leinster's Champions Cup final defeat to Bordeaux, not to mention Ulster's defeat the previous evening against Montpellier, myself and Gerry Thornley recorded a podcast on Saturday from the San Memos Stadium in Bilbao.
If you want to listen to that instant look back at the weekend, that is in your feed. But joining me today, as usual, at the start of the week for a bit of a more measured take and a look at where the two provinces go from here is former Leinster and Ireland centre Gordon Darcy. Hello, Darce. I hope you had a good weekend, aside from rugby watching, I suppose.
I did. I managed to get one of my kids sunburnt. Wow. Yeah. Lennon decided he was going to wear a kind of a singlet vest for most of Sunday afternoon. And I completely brained it on sun cream. So he went to bed like a hot poker and has a full farmer's tan. I was like, but listen, you have now got that monkey off your back. You have now got your first farmer's tan.
It's an important milestone in every son's development.
Well, that's one way of putting it. Well, your son and everyone else in Bilbao there, I'd say.
Yeah, I'd say there was a few questionable tan lines on Sunday morning.
It was a heck of a weekend, all right. Those poor players having to run out in that, but it was definitely more... Start with Ulster. It was definitely, yeah, the heat was more of a factor in the Ulster game than the Leinster game, I thought.
And like the Ulster game, it kind of played out how we knew it would. Montpellier just so physical and just able to score. And I already don't like the way the Ulster season is being framed as a bit of a failure. They absolutely got carried out in their shields. Even if they had a full compliment, I think that the game, the evening, the temperature, it would have been too much for them.
But I think this is a massive step forward for Ulster Rugby. Just because they haven't made the top eight, they're in the final of a major tournament. I think they should be excited about coming back to win this Challenge Cup next year.
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Chapter 2: How did Ulster's performance reflect their season's progress?
So I think, you know, this is a really good season for Ulster.
The heat point was interesting because watching it live, just from an exhaustion point of view, because I think half an hour in, there was a kick chase that they made and... you could just tell there was nobody on it. There's just nobody was chasing the kick and you're just going, right, these guys are already on their last legs here and they have 10 minutes to go till halftime.
You could make an argument if you wanted, maybe change things up a little bit earlier, but what was on the bench to come? I think this, again, this is something we underestimated at the time, but they made the points. The ball was wet because of sweat and grease and Ulster wanted to move it around and that made it tricky. I mean, poor old Zach Ward had a number of errors.
He just, you know, looked like one of a number of players across the weekend to struggle. They missed Stu McCluskey possibly playing at 12, just didn't quite give him the same go forward.
Yeah, he's not Stu McCluskey. So yeah, all the little, all the little things when you are the underdog going in, you need everything to go perfectly. And it didn't. But that's okay. They didn't, they didn't completely wilt, didn't go into the silk. They still kept playing. They got carried out in their shield. As I said, scored tries.
I was talking with my one of my neighbors and he plays tennis and he was talking about he lost his tennis match was there at least maybe you won your tennis match and say somebody could have won this weekend I said no he said I said I don't mind losing he said I played horrific I said that's the bit that killed me and the previous week he said I won but I also played bad there can be a comfort in performance
And there will be aspects of that they will go. And I think, you know, Leo was kind of stretching a little bit as well for that to say, oh, there was some stuff within their control. But for Ulster, some things within their control.
But there's enough in that performance for them to go, OK, well, we didn't shit the bed and we didn't just the scoreline was big, but we gave a half decent account of ourselves.
I asked you would Rob Ballachoon struggle having not played for a while. Boy, did he struggle? He did not. You got pace. He was sensational, wasn't he?
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Chapter 3: What factors contributed to Leinster's defensive struggles?
To concede there,
Let's get into it. What was the issue there? Because, look, it obviously very well worked. Bordeaux, they know what they're doing. You're trying to condense as many defenders in there to open up the space out wide. It worked. What was the issue defensively? Was it communication? Was it two lads not talking to each other so they both end up on the same attacker?
You start to look like Mo Fan is there, there's four of them in a round. You look at Gibson Park, Harry Byrne, Robbie Henshaw are all coming up on a drift. So one pass took out three defenders. There's your problem. You're going to have to set wider. I'm looking at this now. So like they moved reasonably late, you know, BLB are ease on the inside, but like Harry Byrne has to adjust wider on that.
Okay, so it was a width and spacing issue. Because of the width of the pass, and it's unfortunate, but because of the width of the pass from Lukaku, everybody then starts, because they haven't adjusted, then they end up on this kind of up and out. And then Ricky Ioane is coming, is kind of going, okay, well, I'm actually quite narrow here. And he gets caught because he's
coming up and then tries to cut off the pass but is never going to be able to cut off the pass so until if they don't adjust to their line where they can come up square and flat they're always then chasing the ball outwards if you know what I mean so once the ball goes across Harry Byrne to Mo Fanna Harry Byrne has come up and then has to push out so it's almost you've got the first three players doing almost a drift
play and then once they've done that they've now created because BLBRE comes out so they now have four coming in the second line in behind so they have four almost on one this opens up the Leinster defence issue because conceding 41 points in a final that's the worst big day this system three years into the Nienaber defence that's the worst big day this defence has had on paper 41 points worse than I think 37 last year against Northampton in that semi-final
When you concede 41 points in the final, do you look at the system and go, right, is this the right system? Do you look at just execution on a one-off day? Or is it something more fundamental, such as, do Leinster actually have the ability and the players to execute this system, given they have a very different profile of player from the team that made it very successful, which is South Africa?
So for Leinster, they didn't know where Bordeaux were going to be attacking. They really struggled with that. And because it's not a natural defence for them, there wasn't any certainty. So even on that try that we were talking about off the scrum,
had they been able to shift a yard or two wider and then come up and in, there's every chance Gary Ringlows may have gotten Bielberry or Jalabier in behind that rook. But because he was narrow, he was coming inside up, which always meant the defender was going to be able to get the pass, the attacker was always going to get the pass away.
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Chapter 4: Why is player recruitment critical for Irish rugby teams?
The flip to defence hasn't worked. I think that's categoric now at this stage at a European level. Probably it will be enough to get him to a URC final. But the flip, the sacrifice on the attack has been regressive for me. Yeah, it's too prescribed. I go back to this to me is the key point when Leinster, you look at the timing of the of the runs. The rucking was more accurate.
So players are able to get their timing, whether they're running off Lukaku or they're running off Chalabert. And the rucking was better and more accurate. And they knew when they had a genuine opportunity. But this is the key point, I think, for me. When the opportunity presents, you have to take it.
If you have a requirement to build a shape, so even Gary Ringrose's try, it's still the option is to go out the back and they just made a read and he played the front door. Cormac Isachewski's try, that was a manufactured try as well. You know, it was the big guy who wasn't, he wasn't there by chance. He was there. Hume was coming in late and he gets, gets the ball received.
And is it Chukwu who's coming and he makes the right decision. And then you just have a natural athlete who's able to, who's able to run it in. But it's still manufactured. Whereas I think with Bordeaux, there's just a little bit more. It's on, Jalabert gets the, has an over call, has the call. They don't need to have two passes to,
accept the opportunity if you know what I mean so you don't have to have the pivot pass from the forward to get the ball to go in behind to go around to get an opportunity they're much more flexible with taking opportunities and look this might be reading too much into things because what happens in a warm-up is very different to what happens on a training ground when no one's watching but
When you were there and you looked at what the two teams did, I mean, Leinster almost start every session with like skills. It's right, we're going to do a hands drill. You know, everybody has done that in some degree when they played rugby in school or club. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying, but you know, basic skills, that's kind of how they get going.
When Bordeaux came onto the pitch to warm up, the first thing by BLBRA did is he went up and down the five meter channel next to the touchline, just chipping and chasing. You know, how many tries does he score doing that? It's something instinctive.
Then they did a drill where I think no McNamara kicked it to three attackers and there was two defenders chasing them and they just had to run it back and make the right option to find the space. And then they did another drill where they would manufacture a line break for a forward. So one of their big forwards gets over the gain line. What do you do then instantly?
Jalabert comes from the backfield or wherever he is and hits this space right next to the you can hit the space right next to the rope really quickly. It was just really telling to see. So all these things that we see them doing and they score all these tries, you literally watch them doing the work on that in the build-up and just how they frame their entire pre-match. It was fascinating.
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Chapter 5: How does the French league impact Irish rugby teams?
Go off and enjoy your weekend. But Brian Baird was in that group because he was injured. Some of the academy players were in there.
Yeah, you would have thought, though, if Tommy O'Brien had a cramp, you would expect it would have been James Lowe. It would have been next up.
Yeah, I have no idea what their plan there was because Joshua Kenny, who I think is injured, to be fair, he was also outside the stadium. I saw him.
We won't go down too much of a thing. But it's funny, you know, they've also got to now pick up the pieces for this week.
Well, yeah, that's another thing entirely. I mean, Jesus, they should win that game against the Lions, but we'll see.
You've got decisions to make. This is also the thing as well. There isn't many options for selection and for changes and things. Is it... you know, what do you do at 10? Do you play with Kieran Frawley or do you go back to Harry Byrne? Do you go back to Sam Prandegast? They still have to win, like a URC now, not winning the URC. Well, it'll put it firmly in place to say how hard it is to win it.
But you know, Glasgow will be, Glasgow will be going for it. The South African teams are going for it and it's not going to be an easy win. That's the other bit I think that people need to recalibration for it is pretty important. But I think, Leinster winning that title, it will put things into perspective a little bit.
I think I was saying to you beforehand, someone put a Pep Guardiola stats up about Champions League and six Premier Leagues. If Leo can win a... If Leinster can win a URC this year, it'll be one Champions Cup and six URC titles. When you put it into that level of context, it's not the trophy that everybody wants, but I think they're... may need to be a recalibration on that.
You look, La Rochelle have never won the top 14. Bordeaux haven't won it yet.
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Chapter 6: What changes are needed for Leinster to succeed next season?
That tends not to be the way things happen.
Leinster are going to be a poorer team than next season in the back line. So something has to change. You have to change the way they're being coached or the way they're thinking about the game or you need to add some, you need to add some quality in there.
I'm glad you said that because that was going to be my final big picture question to you.
as currently constituted with the game plan that they have because it looks because they played a lot more with the ball this season whereas in previous years they've kicked the leather of it and they've gone full south africa mode and backing their defense this year they held on they made 60 more carries for example from bordo in this game it looks like they're trying to combine make a mess of the rook which they didn't get anywhere near doing on saturday with line speed
versus trying to have that structured phase play attack and hold on to the ball a little bit more. They're trying to combine that kind of Irish trait of overplaying sometimes in big games with South African defence and putting it together. Is that going to work? Do they have the players for that or do they need to?
Well, whatever they're doing, it's not working. And I think... I would say the Neenambar and Blenndal combination has not worked. I think we got close with going all in on defence and we've gotten close this year with the kind of embracing a wider philosophy. But I don't think it's worked. I don't think the game plan doesn't suit the players that they have or the players don't suit the game plan.
One way or another, it's not working. So I think there does need to be some sort of a change there. You look and say what Mark Sexton has done in Ulster, you get the coaching right, you get the message right, and the players will respond. I think the approach they've taken hasn't worked. And it might feel reductive that you're saying if the bar is the Champions Cup, it hasn't worked.
And Leinster just look... like they're playing within themselves. That's the bit to me feels quite stark. It's like Bordeaux, you're playing Toulon. They're not playing within themselves. They're just playing. Ulster, playing. Whereas Leinster, it always looks like it's... oh, what am I supposed to be doing here rather than just being reactive and going for it? And I think that has to change.
I think there is more in them. You know, you look at the 10s that they have, Harry Byrne, Joey Carberry coming back now, these guys, they just need to be freed up a little bit. That's what it kind of feels like to me, that they're just all playing within themselves, not necessarily scared of making a mistake, but they're playing to, oh, this is what I should be doing here.
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