Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is Andrew Ross Sorkin, the founder of Dealbook. Every year, I interview some of the world's most influential leaders across politics, culture, and business at the Dealbook Summit, a live event in New York City. On this year's podcast, you'll hear my unfiltered conversations with Gavin Newsom, the CEO of Palantir and Anthropic, and Erica Kirk, the widow of Charlie Kirk.
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From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. In a dramatic vote on Tuesday, congressional Republicans overwhelmingly approved a bill that President Trump spent months trying to kill that will now force his administration to release all of its files related to Jeffrey Epstein.
Today, the story of how a rebellion started by a handful of Republican lawmakers became a party-wide mutiny against the president and a defining moment of his second term. It's Wednesday, November 19th.
Oh, good morning. A little chilly coming from Florida. Not used to it. I know everybody sees us today as grown adults, but we are fighting for the children that were abandoned and left behind. This is who you're fighting for. This is who Congress is fighting for. This is who the House of Representatives are fighting for. I want to kick this off right and I want to address. I was a child. I was.
In ninth grade, I was hopeful for life. I was only 14 when I first encountered Jeffrey Epstein. And my daughter is now almost at that age.
At 14, what we endured was real. The truth has been buried in sealed files and hidden records for far too long. Alone, yes, we are afraid. But together, we are feared.
Emotionally, this process has been distressing.
First, the administration said it would release everything, then it fought to release nothing. Let me be clear, this is not a hoax. I beg you, President Trump, please stop making this political.
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Chapter 2: What led to Congress approving the release of the Epstein files?
These women have fought the most horrific fight that no woman should have to fight. And they did it by banding together and never giving up. And that's what we did by fighting so hard against the most powerful people in the world, even the president of the United States. And he called me a traitor for standing with these women. I wasn't a Johnny-come-lately to the MAGA train.
And I'll tell you right now, watching this actually turn into a fight has ripped MAGA apart.
It's about 10 a.m. on Tuesday morning. We are standing outside the U.S. Capitol where this really emotional news conference is now wrapping up. And it featured victims of Jeffrey Epstein and this bipartisan group of lawmakers, Republicans and Democrats, who have forced the Trump administration to back a measure that would require it to release Democrats.
all of its Epstein files, something President Trump has fought tooth and nail. So we're not going to go inside the Capitol to talk to our colleague Annie Carney about how these lawmakers persuaded President Trump into reversing himself and backing this measure to release the Epstein files. And then we're going to watch as this bill, in a couple hours we think, gets passed perhaps unanimously.
And Annie should be back here. Hello.
Hello.
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Chapter 3: How did a few Republican lawmakers spark a party-wide rebellion?
Welcome to our humble abode. It is about as humble as it gets. This is our very exclusive closet that we get to sit in every day.
Well, thank you for making some space at your little closet here for us and for making time for us in general today.
Of course.
So, and just to start, this has been an extraordinary few days at the Capitol that brings us to Tuesday's vote. And I'd argue that this vote feels like a major moment, not just in the Epstein story, whose victims have pleaded for it,
but for the entire second term presidency of Donald Trump because of how ferociously he fought this vote ever happening at every turn and with every available tool until suddenly he gave up, which he very, very rarely does in a political fight. So tell us the story of how over the past few days, President Trump concluded that he had to give up the fight here.
I think where the most recent chapter of this starts is when the government shutdown ends and Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, is forced finally to swear in this Democrat from Arizona, Adelita Grijalva, who won a special election a few months ago. And he was... Slow rolling. Slow rolling her swearing in. And that was going to provide the 218th vote on this petition.
Right. The petition, which we should just say as a reminder, harkens back like months.
Yes. Months ago, Thomas Massey, a Republican, and Ro Khanna, a Democrat, paired together to start this discharge petition. Discharge petitions are just something that any member can do. You have to get 218 signatures. And if you do— Not nothing. Nothing. No, it's hard. It's hard to get these things off the ground because that requires bipartisan support.
If you do, you can circumvent leadership and force them to bring a bill to the floor that they don't want to bring to the floor. Right. So they started this months ago. When they first rolled it out, dozens of Republicans were saying they were going to sign on.
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Chapter 4: What role did Representative Thomas Massie play in the vote?
So if that sounds like something that connects with you and you're not a subscriber yet, you can go to nytimes.com slash subscribe.
So a couple of minutes ago, I texted Congressman Massey and said, you don't know me, but I would really like to talk to you about your role in all of this. And I invoked our colleague Katie Edmondson, a Times congressional reporter who knows the Congressman and has his respect. And he just texted back and said, can you meet at Cannon Rotunda in the next 15 minutes?
And so we're now walking underground from the Capitol to the Cannon office building to talk to Congressman Massey about his role in this very big vote. Do you guys know what floor the Cannon Rotunda is on? Two. No, it's three. It's three.
Four, three. Going up. This is y'all.
Thank you. Thank you.
Have a good one.
You too. Okay. Cannon Rotunda. Okay. And Congressman Massey.
Okay.
I got to go write a speech at some point. Okay. Give me a second. Look. Is that a national debt clock on your shirt? Yes, it is. But please, my eyes are up here. Yes. Okay. Congressman Massey, thank you for making time for us. I know it's a huge and important day for you. This all very much feels like you're doing what's happening today, along with Congressman Ro Khanna.
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Chapter 5: How did President Trump's stance on the Epstein files change?
I think, you know, this is just the beginnings and Trump is still a real powerhouse, especially among Republicans, but I do think there's real cracks in this coalition. And once the cracks, of lame duckery, whatever we want to call it, lame duckism, start to show, I wonder how much It can't be papered over. And people want to start poking their hole in it and testing it.
And it just kind of creates an opening that has to be exploited.
Yeah, I think it's just the nature of politics, right? There's no stronger emotion in politics than self-preservation for most of these guys, right? They're going to do what it takes to preserve themselves.
And if they see that Trump is weakening, they're going to make the moves they think are going to help themselves. And it's true. Trump is not going to be around forever. Right. And for the longest time, self-preservation for a congressional Republican meant only one thing. It meant doing what Trump wanted.
And now what you're describing is self-preservation starting to necessitate breaking with him.
Right. I think you're exactly right. And I think we'll start to see more of this. It'll be gradual, but I think the trend is in that direction right now. The fear of Trump was paramount on Capitol Hill for Republicans. That drove everything. Now they're starting to have a little fear of voters. And that can make a difference how they align with Trump.
Well, Carl, as ever, thank you very much. Thanks for coming on site. Again. Yeah, I like it. I think it really, the verisimilitude is good. On Tuesday night, not long after we spoke with Carl, the Senate moved quickly to call a vote in support of the Epstein bill, which now puts the bill on track to pass the Senate by Wednesday morning.
If that happens, the bill could be signed into law by President Trump by the end of the day. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. During a meeting in the Oval Office on Tuesday, President Trump offered the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman, lavish praise and dismissed a report from U.S.
intelligence officials who found that bin Salman was responsible for the murder of a journalist from The Washington Post, Jamal Khashoggi.
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