The Israeli Right’s Plan to Carve Up Gaza
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What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Hi, I'm Juliette from New York Times Games, and I'm here talking to fans about our games. You play New York Times Games? Yes, every day. There's this little tab down here called Friends, so you can add your friend. That feels new to me. It is. It's nice to have the social aspect. Oh, my God, and you have all the times. That's crazy. Right? You can look at Spelling Bee, Wordle, Connections. Oh, my God, amazing. Love that. I'll have to get the app.
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We're a few weeks into the ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas. It's a deal that has already been troubled by violence, but so far it is holding. If you're listening to that deal being talked about in the US, you're hearing it spoken about one way.
So this long and difficult war has now ended. You know, some people say 3,000 years, some people say 500 years, whatever it is, it's the granddaddy of them all.
But when I read the Israeli press, I'm hearing and seeing something very different. In America, the dominant position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is still a belief, a hope in the two-state solution. In Israel, it's just not. Israeli politics is well to the right of where America admits it is, where America even, I think, often realizes it is. One of my intentions and the way we have covered this conflict since October 7th is to not present either an Israel or a Palestinian politics that is different from the one that actually exists. And so I wanted to talk to someone about this deal who represented more the way the Israeli government and the forms of politics that are in power in Israel see it.
Amit Sehgal is the chief political analyst for Channel 12 in Israel. He's a political columnist there. He is the author of the newsletter, It's Noon in Israel.
What is the current status of the Israel‑Hamas cease‑fire agreement and why do Israelis view it as only a pause?
and of a new book recently published in English, A Call at 4 a.m., 13 Prime Ministers and the Crucial Decisions that Shaped Israeli Politics. He's known to be quite close to the Netanyahu government, and I think speaks with strong sourcing among both them and quite a bit of their opposition. Sagal as well, to my right, there are things I think you'll hear him say that many people listening to this will not like. But in order to understand this conflict, you have to take seriously where the Israeli public actually is on it and how the government that is in power in Israel and the coalition that might take power in Israel see it. As always, my email is reclineshow at NYTimes.com.
Amit Sehgal, welcome to the show. Hi, Ezra. I want to start with the state of the ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas. How do you understand what was agreed to?
Well, it was something quite minor. I'm quite skeptical about the chance of having peace, the biggest peace in 3,000 years or something like this. I think it was a ceasefire based on a prisoner swap deal. And this is it. Now, It's not something small in terms of the hostages, and it was a huge question, and the warfare, but it does not end the war between Israel and Hamas. It's like pressing the pause button. When Israel still controls 53% of Gaza Strip, And Hamas is in 47%. And there is a plan, pledge, you name it, by President Trump to actually unroot Hamas one way or the other. Now, Israelis are quite skeptical about, I don't know, Hamas just decide to demilitarize themselves. But let's give peace a chance.
How did Netanyahu sell it to his own coalition? Well, I guess he doesn't mention the term total victory anymore, but he says we got the hostages back, which 80%, 90% of the public wanted, and we actually stay in Gaza Strip and we don't withdraw from Gaza as long as Hamas is not demilitarized and dismantled. So it's like saying there were three goals for the war, releasing all the hostages, check. Dismantling Hamas as an army, check. Demilitarizing Gaza Strip and removing Hamas from Gaza, it has not happened yet, but unlike all the offers made by the Biden administration and by many Arab countries, the war does not end when Israel is out of Gaza and Hamas is still there.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
0:00–2:23
2
What is the current status of the Israel‑Hamas cease‑fire agreement and why do Israelis view it as only a pause?
2:23–9:14
3
How does Amit Segal explain the Israeli right’s plan to partition Gaza after the cease‑fire?
9:14–17:27
4
What are the details of the proposed two‑state arrangement inside Gaza and how feasible is a ‘moderate Gaza’ versus a ruined Gaza?
17:27–25:36
5
How could a reformed Palestinian Authority be integrated into a future Gaza settlement plan?
25:36–34:53
6
What are the two main streams within Israel’s right‑wing and how do they shape Gaza policy?
34:53–44:02
7
What does ‘Lebanonization’ mean and how might it define Israel’s long‑term security posture in Gaza?
44:02–52:10
8
How does the cease‑fire outcome affect Israel’s upcoming elections and coalition dynamics?
52:10–1:10:25