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The Journal.

Inside a Debate at OpenAI Over Mass Shootings

26 Jun 2026

Transcription

Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.

Chapter 1: What warning does the podcast provide about the content?

0.655 - 26.038 Ryan Knudson

A word of warning. This episode contains descriptions of suicide and violence. Please take care while listening. One night in April of last year, a young man named Phoenix Eichner logged onto ChatGPT. Eichner, a student at Florida State University, began typing in some dark thoughts.

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27.52 - 54.338 Georgia Wells

He starts expressing what can only be interpreted as suicidal ideation. That's our colleague Georgia Wells. He's saying things like, what's the point in this life when everybody sees you as a bug? And then he says, honestly, I don't feel like living anymore. And then he says, is suicide a sin? And then he says, I feel God is not present in my life anymore, like he gave up on me.

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54.899 - 57.342 Georgia Wells

Like incredibly vivid questions.

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58.148 - 69.305 Ryan Knudson

ChatGPT detects that Eichner is considering suicide. The chatbot suggests that he should reach out to someone he trusts, like a counselor or pastor, and it recommends a suicide hotline, 988.

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Chapter 2: Who is Phoenix Eichner and what thoughts did he express to ChatGPT?

71.088 - 82.165 Ryan Knudson

ChatGPT tells Eichner, quote, Please hear this. Your life matters. Then it adds, And you can keep talking to me, too. No judgment. No pressure.

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85.705 - 102.932 Georgia Wells

So he logs off that night, a little after 11 p.m. Then he logs on the next morning around 9 a.m. And he asks, if there was a shooting at FSU, how would the country react?

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105.997 - 124.735 Ryan Knudson

Eichner starts to ask ChatGPT things like, how many victims would it take to get on the media? What about three plus at FSU? ChatGPT answers each question dutifully. Quote, a shooting at Florida State University involving three or more victims would almost certainly receive national media coverage.

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126.237 - 137.072 Georgia Wells

And then that question ends, if you're interested in exploring how media coverage varies between different types of institutions or incidents, feel free to ask. They're kind of like keeping this conversation going and going.

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138.594 - 163.063 Ryan Knudson

Eichner then starts asking about guns. He uploads a photo of some shotgun shells, then asks ChatGPT, are they really lethal in close range? Yes, the chatbot says. They're extremely lethal at close range, but they lose power fast beyond 30 feet. Eichner then uploads a photo of a handgun, a Glock. He asks if it has a safety.

164.495 - 181.857 Georgia Wells

I'm not a gun enthusiast, but I've been told that anyone who knows anything about guns understands that Glocks don't have a traditional safety. And so what's fascinating about this exchange is that he really seems to know very, very little about guns. Like ChatGPT is teaching him how to use his gun in front of him.

183.359 - 210.973 Ryan Knudson

You might be able to guess where this is going, but ChatGPT apparently couldn't. It asks multiple times what Eichner intends to use the guns for. Hunting? Home defense? Range shooting? Then Eichner asks what time is busiest at the FSU Student Union. The chatbot says between 11.30 a.m. and 1.30 p.m. Eichner asks how to turn off the safety on a shotgun.

211.934 - 220.157 Ryan Knudson

ChatGPT answers, push safety from right to left, ready to fire. That was Eichner's last question.

224.586 - 230.057 Georgia Wells

And the shots began, you know, four minutes after, three or four minutes after he logged off.

Chapter 3: What alarming questions did Eichner ask ChatGPT regarding violence?

530.224 - 554.577 Ryan Knudson

Last summer, about a dozen OpenAI employees sat down for a meeting. The purpose was to decide whether the company needed to rethink its criteria for when to refer cases to law enforcement. Should they lower the bar and start doing it more often? On the table were about 10 cases where users talked with ChatGPT about violence. There were three cases in particular that were the most concerning.

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554.597 - 570.912 Ryan Knudson

One of them involved a teenager in Tennessee who appeared to be planning a school shooting. That case was referred to the police. But the other two cases hadn't been. One in Texas and another in Canada. We'll start with a case in Texas.

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571.893 - 578.965 Georgia Wells

So during this meeting, employees start debating this user who appeared to be a high schooler in Texas.

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582.286 - 596.65 Ryan Knudson

The OpenAI employees saw in this person's chat logs that on multiple occasions, this Texas high schooler would come home from school, log on to ChatGPT for hours, and ask the chatbot to role-play a scenario in which he would shoot his teachers and classmates.

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598.52 - 619.937 Georgia Wells

He uploaded a map of the layout of his school, as well as photos of cheerleaders whom he said he wanted to imagine killing, along with their boyfriends. And the maps were relevant because he would ask ChatGPT how he should enter the school, or where he should go, or which victims he would encounter, when he should open fire. How would ChatGPT respond?

620.457 - 641.967 Georgia Wells

So one of the things that really stuck with people in the meeting was that ChatGPT remembered the names of the classmates he said he wanted to imagine killing. ChatGPT would advise the teen on where he would enter and exit the building based on the layout he'd uploaded and what he could say to cops when they arrived.

642.748 - 649.317 Georgia Wells

So some of the employees found this one extremely alarming because of the specificity of his interest.

650.073 - 652.758 Ryan Knudson

Why was it not reported to the police immediately?

652.778 - 675.964 Georgia Wells

I think often with these sorts of conversations at OpenAI, the question is around privacy. So the company really wants to prioritize the privacy of its users who are having like very intimate personal conversations with ChatGPT. They're sharing a lot more medical stuff. They're sharing a lot more of their deepest, darkest secrets.

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