Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Hello and welcome to The Midpoint. My guest today was one of the best things to come out of the global pandemic. Her online feminist poetry certainly had a following, but it was her 2020 poem of gratitude, which was used as a poem to thank the NHS, which sent her career into orbit. She's since become a Sunday Times bestseller.
She's the UK's number one selling living poet and her daily social media offerings to her 2 million followers often feel like a morning hug. I am delighted to welcome Donna Ashworth to The Midpoint. Donna, it is an absolute joy to have you on The Midpoint. I say in your introduction that you, I guess, are one of the great positives of lockdown.
Does it feel like that's where things changed for you?
Yeah, I was just saying earlier today, I am a lockdown baby.
Chapter 2: How did Donna Ashworth's poetry gain popularity during the pandemic?
You know, I'm a pivot person who just started something completely different in lockdown and changed my whole life. I moved as well. from England back home to Scotland in lockdown, well, in between the two lockdowns.
When you were allowed to.
When you were allowed to. Changed career. My husband changed career because we were out of jobs because of the lockdown. So completely, this is a lockdown pivot moment now. that I'm still very much enjoying.
As somebody who is the best-selling living poet, it seems remarkable that you had another life, you know. So tell us a bit about pre-lockdown.
So my husband and I owned a children's play centre, a very large, you know, with all the ball pools and the noise and chaos constantly, which, you know, we thought would be a lovely family business to run. But what we didn't realise is seven days a week. And you only close on New Year and, you know, Christmas Day. It's very, very full on.
So we were doing that and we were ready to move on from it after 10 years. I was ready to move on from it after a year. But we loved the staff as well. And we loved, you know, the custom. It was joyful in many ways, but it was a lot. But of course, lockdown, it was the first thing to go. Children's play centres had to close immediately because they are germ.
Yeah.
So we were suddenly in a position where we went, right, OK, what now? And I saw it as quite a good opportunity to move on from something that might have been quite difficult to move on from. But my husband and I ended up moving from Manchester to Scotland with no jobs and no idea of what we were quite going to do next. And the world had turned overnight.
So everything was different and new and terrifying. It was quite a time.
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Chapter 3: What personal changes did Donna experience during lockdown?
There was always, you know, a massive amount of poetry came out after every war, quite rightly, because so many people died. were grieving and so many people were lost and so much change and words are a great way to deal with that. And the only thing that everybody had left was online, quite literally was all we were allowed to do. So I already had a blog at that point.
And I was sharing some things online, maybe an occasional poem here and there, but not with any sort of purpose. And then I just thought to myself, I'm going to write a little poem every day. And that's going to save my sanity because I'm an overthinker. And when the worst happens, the overthinker brain goes, aha, told you. Told you these things can happen. I told you movies can be real.
It felt so unrealistic, didn't it? Like we were watching a film. And so you can spiral very quickly. So I thought this will keep me sane. It will help me and maybe it'll help other people. And it just went from there.
And then you wrote the poem to the NHS.
Well, I just wrote that poem as I do all my poems. It just went out on social media. I didn't think it was for the NHS or anything like that until it started to be used by doctors. It started in America. Doctors were using it and schools were using it and they were all taking a line each and making it a bit of an anthem almost.
Then it came to the UK and then it was picked up by celebrities who were reading lines in schools. You're seeing this on your social media? I didn't know about it either.
until I was tagged in it and you're like oh you don't even know quite and Amnesty International wrote to me and said please can we send this poem out to all of our subscribers across the world and that was when I thought okay maybe I could
do this maybe this could be my life maybe this is a thing so how much writing had you been doing and how much were you absorbed by poetry in the years before when you were running the ball pit play centre not at all not at all
Maybe occasionally for someone's wedding. So I was a songwriter in my youth, but I never quite made it. Well, I didn't make it. I don't know why I say quite made it.
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Chapter 4: How did Donna transition from running a play center to becoming a poet?
In fact, I remember when people used to listen to my tapes as they were then or CDs, I used to stop it and make them listen to a line again because I think you're not listening. I mean, how annoying is that? How arrogant? You have to listen to that line. It's a really good line.
Do you not hear what I said there? How profound that was?
I don't care about the words. I'm just, you know, seeing is it a good tune? So for me, it was always the lyrics. So I've always had that. I've always loved that.
using words to feel and your love of music is that also it's really important for you that the lyrics you can't it's not just about the beat this is about yeah sometimes who's your favourite songwriter then who would you who would you send people to if you kind of I mean I love who's the biggest poet the best poet I mean, in terms of musical lyrics.
They're big questions. I like Freya Ridings. I love Lewis Capaldi. I mean, I'm Scottish, so I'm biased. But he knows how to make a song that is, you know, can be universally relatable, which is really important to me, is that I'm not trying to do anything clever with my words.
I want it to be really simple. You've talked, haven't you, about that, though, about the snobbery that there is around poetry as well. And when you say that, I think you're doing yourself a disservice because actually sometimes to be that clear and, as you say, simple involves incredible sophistication and real talent because people don't know how to get to that message as quickly as possible.
Yeah.
And you're so right. It's easy to be around the bush and be abstract and flowery because no one can actually prove you wrong because some poems you go to them and you're not quite sure what they're saying. So therefore you can study it in English. What is the poet trying to say here? And two opinions can be right. That's not the case with mine. It is what it is. It does what it says on the tin.
There's a message there and I want the message to be heard because I started writing words for everyday use, not just funerals, which are really important to me. Grief poetry is really important to me. Every day we think something, a mindset shift, a perspective shift, you know, some comfort, some hope.
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Chapter 5: What role does poetry play in processing collective grief?
Have you not?
I have.
Of course I have. But never put it in there.
I tried not to, but then I thought, no, I've always tackled everything by bringing it up. Because why not? They say don't feed the troll and don't, you know, don't give them something to talk about. But I think darkness is dangerous, you know, for people's mental health. And if you speak about it, you've brought the light in and you've shared it and it becomes quite funny in the end.
You know, they're comparing these modern poets to poets that lived hundreds of years ago. Again, why would you do that? Life moves on. Yeah. Of course, it's going to be new. You can appreciate both. Exactly. So... It's a powerful exercise of coming back from the criticism because it does hurt. Of course it hurts.
And using it to kind of not fuel you in a negative way, but remind you why you're doing it. And this is the why that I am doing it for that reason, the mental health messaging. The sharing of, you know, tips and tricks and how to make this life easier for each other.
So where did this go that you have in you now when you weren't a writer for a living? Were you the person who was wise all the time? Were you the person that people sought counsel from?
Yes, in a way, I think so. But I think it becomes a negative. If you have a brain that works like that and you're constantly seeing all of the worst case scenarios or feeling everybody else's feelings, grieving for people you've never met, worrying about people who might die that you've never met, the world is tough. So for me, that would go into depression.
Or, you know, periods of time where I wasn't functioning well, eating disorders and, you know, crash and burn. I only see that now looking back. Now that I am constantly writing, constantly talking about why I write, constantly listening to other people and their stories and sharing all of the real stuff, I'm so mentally well.
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Chapter 6: How does Donna define the purpose of her poetry?
They're trying to understand somebody's grief and hear it and not wash over it. You have to be in it and you have to be truthful about it. But also, how do I get out of this today so that I can see the love and not just the grief? I can see the hope and not just the loss. I can get the comfort to put one foot in front of the other because again, we're not taught how to carry on.
You don't move on, but you have to move with. Life is different now. You are a different person after someone leaves. And that doesn't mean to say that that is a worse section of your life. It just means that you have grief with you. And learning to manage that is vital.
So I'm delighted that the conversation about grief has opened up more and it's my favourite thing to write about because I'm such a joy.
Well, you are and you've written a book about joy as well. And, you know, To the Women, which you've just read from, is a beautiful book that's not all about grief at all. So, you know, you have a whole range.
It's in there though. I managed to get it in, even the joy book. Because you can't experience joy properly if you don't experience sadness.
But also, I think grief has so many different shades, doesn't it? Because if you're at the funeral of a remarkable 95-year-old who led the most tremendous life, who was loved by their family, who created great things and never kind of had a regret about their life, my God, that's joyful, isn't it? That's an amazing experience. You're celebrating a life well-lived.
So there are different shades and different feelings.
Completely. And it's so complicated. And like snowflakes and fingerprints, no two people grieve the same. So all we can do is help one another, be the glue for one another, patch each other up when we can.
What's been the most remarkable kind of live performance in terms of looking at an audience or, God, I can't believe this is my life now. I get to do this.
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Chapter 7: What challenges does Donna face as a modern poet?
Because everybody wants to feel, you know, the celebratory aspect of the person that they're missing as well. But it's so hard. There's nowhere to do it. There's no safe space. And this was a safe space. And we laughed and we cried and we laughed and we cried. And it was a brilliant night. So...
Have you got more coming? Do you think you'll do more of this?
I will, but not for a few months.
Right.
I'll do it for my next... Does it take it out of you? It does. It does. And I don't really like being away from home for too long. Life on the road is hard when you're in your 50s. Yeah. I miss my kids, my husband and dogs and my cats. And also, I don't really think that's who I am. I love to write. I love to share. I love to do the events because you get such an exchange.
You know, it's a full circle. Everyone shares their stories with me and those stories will come back out in the poetry. And so I see it as I'm taking minutes at a huge meeting of women, mostly women. And it's not just my lived experience or things that I'm thinking. It's what I'm witnessing and observing in other people. And I just think that's a poem. That's a poem. That's a poem.
And as long as I think it can be useful, it will become a poem and go in the book. It doesn't have to be good. Or, oh, people are going to think that's a good poem. Is the message a message I think is important? Yes, it goes in the book.
And these, at the moment, these tours are in the UK, but you have a huge following in America, don't you? I mean, the golden ticket.
I'm going to LA in October. Wow. I don't want to think about it too much. What are you doing? Because I'll get caught in the mouth. What are you doing? I can't say yet. Oh my gosh. It's very, very exciting. Is it? It's going to be the pinnacle of my entire life. This is not the Netflix of your rise to fame. I can't say.
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Chapter 8: How does Donna cope with criticism of her work?
So it happens everywhere at once, which has because I have actually brought out two to three books a year.
Yeah.
I didn't realize how many. I can't stop. I know. You are prolific. And I started reading kind of, oh my gosh, this woman is incredible.
Do you know why there's so many? Because I'm not judging them or editing them or perfecting them or worrying too much if they're going to be perfect. I made that decision in the very beginning that When I write the poem, the poem goes out and we do not carve at it. Because once you start carving at it with critical eyes, judgmental eyes, imposter syndrome, you shave off the rough.
And you're left with something clinical and similar to other things. So I made that deal with myself right at the very beginning. Do not judge your poems. Put them out as they are. And I had a feeling that this was the only way I was... Because I would ruin it for myself.
I would end up with five poems that I thought were perfect and nobody would ever get to read them because, you know, I was too shy.
This is not a book, Donna. This is not a book. This is a pamphlet.
So because I don't edit, it's like you take your foot off the hosepipe of creative flow. It just comes out and you can allow it. If it's going to find its people, it will find its people. If it's not, it's not. We do not judge. We do not shame. We do not blame. Let the words go and do their thing.
Imagine how much more literature there would be in the world.
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