Chapter 1: What unique perspectives do Tommy and Donners share about refereeing?
Tonica, welcome along to another episode of The Dressing Room.
Yes, looking forward to it, Tommy. I enjoyed The Dressing Room because I think we're allowed to be a little bit freer. We're among friends, you know what I mean?
We're among friends, we are. And we thank you all, our friends, for joining us. Really, really, really appreciate it.
It's like walking around your house in your jocks, you know what I mean? You just feel comfortable doing this. It's grand to be in here. There's no one we should do The Dressing Room in our jocks, just because we're at home.
Well, I'm not quite at home and I don't think it would be appropriate for me to wear my jocks where I am right now. But anyway, listen, let's not get into that before I get chased out of here. Listen, today we're going to go look at a few, reminisce on a few memories potentially of dealing with referees. Now, I'm going to caveat this, OK, because I was never a captain.
Never, even under 12s, a captain of a team. Never dealt with a referee. Never spoke to a referee. Stood on the wing my whole career. Never did. The only people I dealt with were the touch judges. Yeah, of course. And that was more them just shouting at me to get offside. Tell them to get, tell number 12 to go offside. I'm like, I can't, they don't talk to me like I can't.
So they're 80 metres away, sir. and they don't listen to me sir it's just me and you here man alright so I don't have great me and refs yeah yeah anyway listen you must have a right view because you were in the thick of it with a lot of referees at stages well I
I think it opens it up to the point. I think we're looking at the moment. Tyke Byrne just being announced as Munster's captain. And then Craig Casey stepping into that role. And it kind of spiraled out of that. Weren't we saying that some people are suited to leadership roles? And I think both of us would agree we're not. You know what I mean? In terms of... Genuinely, Tommy.
You have to... That is called the helicopter approach. But you've got to spot everything, don't you? If you're skipped.
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Chapter 2: How do Tommy and Donners reflect on their experiences with referees?
I can't get enough of Star Bars.
You've said that before. It's so weird.
It's like they're everywhere, man. They're on billboards and everything at the moment. Star Bars are having a movement.
I love a Snacks. The Snacks crisps.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, go back there. I don't think they're as tasty as they used to be. Maybe my taste buds have withered away.
I like them when they melt on your tongue almost. And I kind of eat them by bits. I buy them on the motorway and they seem to last me ages. Them or McCoy's because I break them up.
What about skips, if that's the case? You know, those ones that kind of dissolve.
Yeah. Kids love them. No, I'm not.
They feel like confession. A little bit.
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Chapter 3: What insights do they provide on leadership in rugby?
Yeah, but the thing is, I'm not just saying that I could follow Trimby. I knew that, you know what I mean? Sorry, I'm going to be overly harsh, man. You'd X Factor fucking falling out your arse. You know what I mean? You could make something out of nothing. There was moments of times that I was there. Get up from scrums, man, and just look up and see you gone. And they're all what a freebie.
well I don't agree well kind of anyway listen whatever with that I do but I want to go back to what you're saying is actually it's the foot soldiers and there's no books ever written about there's nothing ever like a book written about how to be the perfect foot soldier it's all about how to be the Paul O'Connell and like People can't really become a poly.
I would have loved to be in a Brian O'Driscoll. I think there's certain people are just built to lead and don't give a fuck what people are saying around them. They just, you know, they have that aura about them and we just didn't have it. No, we didn't.
But then, like, I actually think the environment is fueled by those people. Like, I remember Ian Dowling, like, when we were...
bubbling along with Munster Dowling was like a cheerleader for training standards if you know what I mean he would go round and he'd be in your ear and you know the way there's some days there you're down the college farm you know what I mean it's November it's pissing rain it's freezing and Dowling's there to you
how good are we going to be today man he's pumping the energy around the place being like this energy bunny and in your head you're there like go away man don't be annoying me but then finishing chanting to him you're there like I'm going to go for him you know what I mean here I go and he sprints out onto the pitch flicks the ball up and he's away and you're like
That's the sort of energy I need. You know, you chase that from them. Yeah, big time.
But then I always thought those were selfless acts, right? Because I do think you need to protect your leaders. We chat about the Rory's, the Paul's, the Johnny's, the Draco's. They've enough shit going on. They're actually, they're even dealing with stuff, you know what I mean, off pitch.
That we don't even know about.
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Chapter 4: How do personal relationships with referees impact gameplay?
If someone didn't like Bossy, you'd question him, wouldn't you? You'd be like, they're a bit off. It's a bit like John Hayes. If John Hayes doesn't like you, you're an asshole.
Jesus, I don't know where John Hayes is. He's a right ignorant fucker to me sometimes.
Actually, I just thought John Hayes doesn't like you. He's right. You are an asshole.
He doesn't like many. Well, it leads on to where we were meant to be talking about referees a little bit, because I'd say there's times for them. Like they have to be the people that bring the energy, you know, running out there, knowing they're going to be abused, getting a tough time, going into the change room. Like I used to have that, you know, some days and it's just...
You know, you're in Newport and the change room is about the size of the downstairs toilet and you're all trying to get changed on top of each other and the referee comes in with his assistants and he's there. Like, do they check the studs anymore?
Oh, I'm not too sure. Yeah, I remember that. Stud check, lads, and you'd all have to show them. Oh, there you go. And then you'd show the boots you're not wearing because you're 21s in because you want to look after your tight head.
So what was it, 21s or 21 mils, is it?
Millimetres, either 18 which were legal or then 21s that were illegal. Like, who's going to fall out about three millimetres? And why would you be, they hardly have the ruler for that, do they? No, no, but you can just, you know by the look of them, yeah, definitely. And is that for scrummaging? Well, I would have found it handy for scrummaging, definitely. Would you have worn 21s?
I would definitely. If I was behind a tight head, I definitely would have worn 21s. If I was behind Marcus Horne, I would have worn slippers. Sorry, puppy. You don't get that joke. It means that I'm easy to go back, you fucking flooze. You know nothing about the front five of a rugby match.
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Chapter 5: What are the challenges referees face during matches?
Sorry, he didn't know what to do with all the different color boots. He was there like, you can't get an orange or yellow or pink polish. You know what I mean? So they're just coming in to clean their boots. Whereas before there used to be dubbing and proper polish and there was a good smell in his room.
Like, I mean, there was a whole respect. But you used to have boots and they used to last so long at that stage. Yeah, that's true. Nowadays, lads are just getting to get free boots and just throw them out.
Yeah, don't look at us turning into those two fellas. Back in our day, you'd have a boot that would last you...
I remember I was at one stage, Darce was with Puma and he wore a new pair of boots every game. No way. How bougie is that? That is incredible.
Do you remember the kind of unwritten rule of if you were lucky enough to kind of get boots, you always kind of left a few in the room for the younger lads. You know what I mean?
Oh yeah, did you?
You type...
Oh, yeah, I did that. All right. Yeah. Remember, Darce had boots and one had South and the other said side on it. Ah, brilliant. And he's from Wicklow.
He's not even from Dublin. Didn't he have the frames or something? He had a band written on at one time, too.
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Chapter 6: How do referees manage player interactions and emotions?
And like when you're sitting on your ass and on your couch, it seems ridiculous, doesn't it? You're there like, oh my God, this is awful. But when you're just about to go out for kickoff, if he doesn't, if he's not doing that, I'm there like...
you need to hit an emotional pitch to get ready to go I felt well I don't think they do anymore though I think that's all gone the whole emotion of it I'd love to be like that I remember one time being in the training room and I was I think it was with the Ospreys I think it was John Thomas but anyway we were all gearing up and everyone's in the huddle or whatever else and JT was standing underneath the frame of like the partition between the showers and the dressing room
And he's like, come on, boy. He suddenly jumped up into the air and literally smashed his head on the bottom of the wall and KO'd himself. Brilliant.
He's following the return to play.
And he was done. He was KO'd. He couldn't play. I don't think so. I think it was... Anyway, I just remember being in the huddle looking across going... Do you know the way you get to that level where I'm there reading the newspaper and I look across and laughing at him. Yeah, I didn't get that. Remember like Vickery even like in the change room with the Lions when he's headbutting the opposition.
Oh Jesus, I'd hate that. I'd hate an old headbutt before you even go out. But there is funny moments like that, isn't there? When people do, like I remember John Fogarty, who's obviously legend in terms of his coaching ability, gone off on the lines. But when he played with us with Con, he was like, he is an awful messer.
And he, a bit like you, he saw the dressing room as an opportunity to have a bit of crack. So he'd say to me on the kind of Thursday, he'd be in for Frankie Sheehan playing hooker. And normally he'd play seven if we weren't. He was an unbelievable player, both as a hooker or a seven. But Frankie was out for a while and Foggs was going in hooking.
But he was there like, I'm going to quote Braveheart in the dressing room. And I'm there like, what? He was there before the match. I'm going to make a William Wallace bit of a speech, see if he can cop it. And like, you'd forget about it then. And then 10 minutes or five minutes before kickoff, you'd hear Foggs giving it to, lads, you've bled with Frankie for years. Will you bleed with me?
And like, you could see the lads buying in, kind of giving it to, yeah, Foggs, we got your back. And then he's winking over at me, kind of like, freedom.
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Chapter 7: What memorable referee moments do Tommy and Donners recount?
I kept giving it to him. And it just led to this kind of awkward moment. And that would have been a kind of younger ref. But I remember the following week, we had Leicester in six ways. And Wayne Barnes was ref. And I could just tell he was going to do me. You know that way, double yellow equal to a red.
One for not rolling away, one for bringing down a mole where there could have been any one of us. He was after you. Yeah, I always... Look, I know he's well-received and stuff, but I genuinely hated when he reffed us. I would rather, genuinely, I'd rather play Wales than have Nigel Owens reffing. Or I just found him really hard to manage.
Not manage, that's wrong for me to say, but I just... We didn't hit it off, man. I just thought he was... And then socially great, you know what I mean? Away from it, which was frustrating again. Yeah.
He was definitely a referee that at times you look back and you're kind of thinking, yeah, he was almost trying to be, and Tiger Knight are almost, I don't know, sometimes, even I felt that with Knight, sometimes it was nearly trying to be your mate as well, going, ah, chin up, Tommy, penalty against you, or you didn't run away. And I'm like... I don't... Like, piss off, man. Yeah, yeah.
There's fine balances in there.
You know what I mean? Well, then, yes, exactly. Because then all of a sudden you're kind of like, well, actually, I want to have that... Like, it's a really tricky... I would hate to be a referee. Yeah, yeah, agreed. It's amazing, like, the guys who do it. And I think for the likes of Wayne Barnes, the abuse that he's had over the years. And as you say...
maybe he did bring it on himself at times in certain ways. I don't know how, but he wouldn't have been Flavour of the Month with a lot of the teams he was reffing against.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And look, we're not saying any of that should go on. You know what I mean?
No.
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Chapter 8: What lessons can be learned from the refereeing experiences shared?
In crucial stages of matches, he had no problem making the tough decision. And sometimes he got it right, sometimes he got it wrong. And that must have been very difficult as him, if looking back on it, he got it wrong and it had a huge impact. Like, I even just think about it in 2009. Remember Paddy Wallace? Paddy Wallace.
But yeah, like...
But actually, so Paddy, for his testimonial, and he, because Wayne Barnes actually got in touch with Paddy and said, listen, mate, I'm really sorry. I actually got that wrong. You were right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You were right there. And like Paddy wouldn't have been welcomed back in Ireland again.
Oh, man. I remember seeing his face. It's an awful thing to say. But in that moment, right. I remember because I was under that. I was in that. I was there like, please don't be four. You know, all I was praying is don't have that. Don't. And he was there like Paddy. I was there. Oh, thank God. This is all on Walt.
Because this is like first Six Nations Grand Slam in 61 years. And Paddy comes on off the bench. Ulster player who probably didn't have the media 100% on his side as well.
I like what you're implying here.
Go on the chips. It's absolutely true. And Paddy would have said that as well. What a player, man.
came on and tried to have an impact went in for the poach and looking back on it Wayne Barnes has got in touch with him and said listen Matt you were actually right there but Wayne pinged him final minute of the game and Stephen Jones had that opportunity to get the kick if Stephen Jones had kicked that We would have still won the Six Nations, but we would have missed out in the Grand Slam.
And I don't know if the players are Paddy. And Paddy actually says that he, even though we got it and we won for months and months after, he would wake up in a cold sweat. It really triggered and really impacted him massively.
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