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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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Good afternoon. Welcome to the latest episode of The Other Hand. We're recording this on Tuesday afternoon. It's always, as we keep saying in recent times, very important to specify the exact timing of the podcast. because one can be out of date very, very quickly. Today, I'm joined by, I think I was going to say an old friend. I should say a friend of the podcast, Joan Mulvihill.
Joan Mulvihill describes herself as a technology advocate, and she's also a very, very accomplished artist. So, Joan, welcome back to The Other Hand. Delighted to have you again. I guess, you know, to set the ball rolling, because we have a lot to talk about, tell us what you've been at in recent times.
Busy, busy, actually.
Chapter 2: How does Joan Mulvihill balance being a technology advocate with skepticism about AI?
It's been conference and awards season. So I was hosting the CIO 100 at Dublin Tech Summit, which was The Innovation Value Institute Conference in Maynooth University. I was the host of the, oh, fascinating one. I was at the host of the Analytics and AI Awards in the Mansion House last week as well. I've been doing some fireside chatting with Atomic Marketing and UiPath.
So lots of really... Oh, and the Industrial Research and Development Group Annual Conference Amplify was last week.
Chapter 3: What are the ethical implications of AI according to Gene Sperling's article?
So I've had a great opportunity to have fireside chat, one-to-one conversations with interesting thought leaders in the area of technology. And also just that wider... I suppose, impact of technology on the world, really quite expansive conversations with people, as well as the nitty gritty of technology adoption. So yeah, it's been really varied and quite exciting.
Great. Joan, I want to start off by asking you a pretty fundamental question. We have discussed AI a lot in previous podcasts. You have very, very strong views on it.
Chapter 4: How can technology contribute to economic dignity for workers?
So I'm kind of interested in how... you kind of marry the idea of being a technology advocate with the idea of, well, your deep skepticism about the whole thing. And if I may indulge myself for a couple of minutes before I allow you in to answer that, I'm just going to read something that was in the Financial Times last Thursday, I think it was.
It was an article by a guy called Gene Sperling, who was the director of the National Economic Council in the States some years back. He was national economic advisor to the Clinton and Obama administrations. So a pretty bright guy, a pretty well clued in guy. So I'll just go through the key elements of what he was saying.
He was saying that AI enthusiasts need to lose the delusion that if only working families could comprehend the productivity gains, the consumer conveniences, the potential medical breakthroughs that AI can bring. They could get over their fear of losing their standard of living, meaningful work and hopes for their children's economic future. And he said they won't.
Chapter 5: What practical measures are suggested for responsible AI development?
He goes on then to advise that the tech titans should take seriously the legitimate opposition to economic policies or technological trends that threaten to reduce the dignity for workers. The only legitimate end goal of any democracy is the degree to which it lifts the economic dignity of its people. So he's calling for some form of redistribution.
He's calling for the sharing of AI gains with workers through higher pay, shorter working hours or a dedicated revenue stream to create millions of dignified jobs. And he's basically calling for a public policy that's pro-human AI development. And you could well say it's easy for somebody like this to come out and make these sort of aspirational suggestions.
But actually, he gets down and dirty with it. He suggests a number of very practical measures that should be contemplated, such as a redeployment tax credit to encourage companies to choose apprenticeship programs. skills enhancement, and on-the-job training paid for by business through a corporate surtax. And this is something that's being contemplated in Singapore at the moment, I believe.
Chapter 6: How do the hosts view the role of tech titans in shaping public policy?
He's talking about ending the 100% expensing for investment in automation. And he's talking about an AI token or what he calls a compute tax. So he's basically saying that large business should pay higher taxes to create an incentive that would lower taxes only for those who choose to lead on. excuse me, redeployment, augmentation, or job sharing with higher wages.
Okay, so basically he's saying that if the tech world and the tech titans don't wake up to the reality of what they're pushing, what they're propounding, that it is going to lead to a severe backlash from the populace. And he believes it's time now that those tech titans start to address this issue rather than wait until it's too late.
So sorry, I rambled on there, but I did think it was an interesting piece. So I'll give the floor back to you, Joan. And as I say, starting on that piece about being a technology advocate and having such a stringent views on the topic,
Chapter 7: What are the societal consequences of AI on employment and education?
I think I may have a brain crush on that guy now. I know the podcast is called The Other Hand, but on the same hand as the guy, as Gene Sperling, I actually really liked a lot of that. I think that's very much where I'm at on it, to be honest with you. I don't hate the technology. I'm just deeply skeptical of the people who are currently leading it.
And there's some scribbled notes I was making here. They must take seriously opposition. I think one of the things that we're losing right now is an acknowledgement or an acceptance of any voices of opposition to the elites who are running the tech industry. And it says, and you said, in any legitimate democracy.
And I'm beginning to wonder about a lot of the legitimacies of some of the countries that we may have held up as the great democracies.
Chapter 8: What insights does Joan share about future generations and technology?
And in particular, those, you know, I'm looking, I'm talking about the US, obviously, we've talked about the broligarchy on this before, where a lot of this has been driven out of and, you know, a lot of the AI has been driven from.
And I look at that and I look at the legitimacy of democracy there and the efforts that are being made to shut it down to a certain extent and the capacity in doing so to take opposition seriously. So I absolutely agree with that, with the article or the author's perspective that the technology is really good, but there's a trade-off here and that we have to start bringing this public interest
this partnership with, with the populace into it. And so there were all beneficiaries. My concern is that the, the brody Garkey who are leading this have shown no appetite to share anything with anyone. And I,
I know that you want to talk about this article, but and one of the things that I wanted to talk about today actually was along a similar vein, because I was reading something the other day on someone's sub stack and they talked about this psychological thing that we all have this kind of like a death wish and that some people. in the elites are executing this at mass.
It's a long and complicated and very dark and dystopian article, but it made me think about the global sustainable development goals. And a huge amount of the things that you're after referencing there from that article are also referenced in the global sustainable development goals around decent work,
and economic growth so that the distribution or the benefit, so that everybody, all the humans working, all the employees would have access to decent quality work. So that's part of the sharing and the benefit. Quality education, that's part of sharing and the benefit.
If we do AI properly, good health and wellbeing, gender equality, affordable and clean energy, the 17 sustainable development goals can either be supported or completely assaulted by the adoption of technology. And I am curious that we've got the technology on one side, sustainable growth, and not just sustainable environment, but sustainable growth on another.
And they seem to be at war with one another. So the climate is probably going to kill us. There's two things trying to kill us at the same time, the climate, nature, and the AI. And I'm wondering which is going to win. And I'm wondering how much power we have at all anymore in deciding.
And tell me, Joan, it's obviously hot in Mullingar today. Yeah. Tell me something. I mean, you go through some of the sustainable development goals of the United Nations and you say that AI is at variance with a lot of those. I mean... What do you mean? What do you think AI should be doing to address those?
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