206. How Putin's War Changed Finland Forever (Sanna Marin)
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Welcome to the Rest of Politics Leading with me, Bory Stewart. And me, Alastair Campbell. So can we start with Finland and NATO? Because one of the biggest decisions you had to take was when Russia launched the all-out invasion on Ukraine. Finland ultimately joined NATO. I just wanna just talk me through your view of NATO historically and what it was like taking such a big decision and how you took that through. With the Finnish people.
I try to explain it. I understand that looking from outside of Finland, the reasons why we stayed military non aligned for so long and why we then joined NATO might seem unlogical, but it is actually quite logical. And the reasons why we stayed unlined and why we joined NATO is the same, to keep our country and our citizens safe. We were for a long time thinking as a nation uh that the best way to secure our Independence, security, our freedom. was to maintain a functional relationship uh with Russia because we have extremely difficult history with the country. Uh we have force been under Russian rule before, what force with Soviet Union. We have lost land, almost 10% of our land mass uh in those wars and also l uh lives have been lost uh tremendously and every Finnish citizen's
have this collective memory of those difficult times. And we really well have been uh been aware that we have this monster or or this aggressor uh just next doors. And the way that we have been keeping our country safe is that uh we have had functional relationship with the country. But when the war in Ukraine, full-scale invasion of Ukraine started, we saw, like the rest of Europe, that Russia isn't only a country that have been an aggressor in the b past, but it is an aggressor now. and Europe is in war because of Russia. And then that collective memory also served to that direction that We as a country together decided it's not safe anymore not to join uh NATO because we didn't want to find ourselves in a situation where we would be alone facing uh that aggressor.
What do you think maybe people in uh Britain or Western Europe maybe don't understand about Russia, which you or people in Finland maybe understand more directly?
Well, I think the most important thing is to understand that the logic of Putin and the logic uh of Russia it's very different than ours. And the biggest mistakes looking at the situation now was made in 2014, when Russia invaded Crimea. And we thought that Some sanctions and some uh consequences would be enough. And we thought for a long time as a Europe uh together that having this functional relationship with Russia, uh close economic ties, would prevent a wider war, because it would be so irrational to start a war because of the economic consequences.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
0:00–8:04
2
How did Finland decide to join NATO after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine?
8:04–11:22
3
What historical ties and memories shaped Finland’s security policy before NATO?
11:22–15:28
4
Why does Sanna Marin say Russia’s logic is fundamentally different from Europe’s?
15:28–19:53
5
How did Finland’s massive reserve system develop and why is it important today?
19:53–31:59
6
What personal challenges did Sanna Marin face becoming the world’s youngest female prime minister?
31:59–43:25
7
How did a private‑party dance video become a national scandal for the Finnish government?
43:25–51:37
8
Why does Sanna Marin believe Europe must build its own defence and tech autonomy?
51:37–58:52
Speakers
3 identifiedMore from The Rest Is Politics: Leading
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