Chapter 1: Why do smart people believe in ideas without evidence?
I believe that the only way we can harvest the learning and the growth and find those seeds that can enable us to grow is by extending some grace inwards. It's by forgiving ourselves for being the unfinished drafts of who we're on the way to becoming.
This is a girl from a small Aussie dairy farm, the daughter of a nearly illiterate farmer, become a globally recognized expert on courage, who advises NASA and appears on CNN. That's Dr. Maggie Royale. In our conversation, we get real about why Comfort zone is killing our potential.
How to silence the negative voice in our head and why faith over fear is an intentional game plan for our life, not just a tattoo. This is one of the most important conversations we've ever had on the podcast. You are not going to want to miss this one. Let's dig in. This is the way. It is such a pleasure to have you on the show and I appreciate you.
I have twice, so the audience knows, I have twice messed this up. Once I had an issue with my kids and the second time we were literally on the call and all my electronics just blew up because I just created this brand new studio that we are recording in, or at least I'm recording in right now. So Margie, I appreciate you so much.
I appreciate you putting up with all my stuff and I am so excited to chat today.
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Chapter 2: What role does fear play in our decision-making?
excited to talk to you too. And I'm going to start by just saying, my pronunciation of my name is unique for Americans. It is Margie with a hard G. Think Margarita.
Okay. I'm going to try my best. Margie. Margie. Margie. Yeah, that's it. Yep. Short for mama. Tremendous. Tremendous. I apologize for not having that dialed before we went live. But that being said, I always excuse because I have this very bland Irish tongue, which literally has zero flavor in it at all.
So unless it's like as base like English, American English as possible, I cannot get pronunciations right. So, you know, just the way that I was born. But however, getting into what I want to talk about. So much of your work is based around the idea of courage. And right on your site, you have this quote. It's pulled out. It's in quotes. It's boxed. Growth and comfort can't ride the same horse.
And I think logically, that makes a tremendous amount of sense. I think everyone would just go, yeah, yeah, of course. However, it's not the way most people operate in practice. Why do you think so many of us can logically ā understand, believe that growth comes from pushing ourselves, going outside, etc. Yet we just operate in this nice, comfy, consistent spot for most of our lives.
Because our bodies biologically and neurologically, we are so wired for safety, for certainty, for for familiarity. And so even though intellectually we hear an idea, we hear that, you know, quote, growth and comfort can't ride the same horse. And we go, yeah, yeah, good. When we then go to do it, we go, oh, no way.
Our brains are pulling the reins and going, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want to do that. So just recognizing that overcoming our own instinct for self-protection, for certainty, for shoring up the status quo is just so programmed into us that there's a big gap between what we know we should do and what we actually do. Fear creates that gap. Instinct to play it safe creates that gap.
And hence, the work that I do, it takes courage.
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Chapter 3: How can we cultivate courage to challenge groupthink?
Cultivating our capacity to take action, even though we're afraid and there's a risk, is so crucial.
Do you think a lot of your focus on courage comes from the fact that you were raised on a farm?
Great question. Great question. I don't think it all comes from being raised on a farm, but clearly that's one aspect of it. I think it also comes from being raised in an environment where I didn't have many role models who were people to look to who were empowered.
where there was even culturally in Australia, there's something, anyone who's from Australia listening to this will know the tall poppy syndrome. There's this cultural norm that that celebrate self-deprecation and is just out to get anyone who seeks to put themselves out there and be too big, to be a tall poppy, a poppy flower that could get risk getting cut down. And so humility is praised.
Anything that could remotely sniff of Trying to get too far above your rank, you know, being ambitious, et cetera, is really socially risky. And so I think for me, having the courage is something I've had to practice, defying the doubts and that little voice in my head that said, who do you think you are? And, you know, my dad milked cows for 50 years.
largely illiterate, dropped out of school at 16. So this environment was about really celebrating humility and has self-deprecation in art form. I think for me, my own personal journey of having to practice courage, but then in life with all of the stuff that life's brought my way, just recognizing that if life was perfect, it wouldn't be. And that so often we have to
really walk this path of what I would even call faith over fear. And so my whole journey, I think it's been one that's continually pointing me back to courage in different forms.
Love that. I actually have a faith over fear tattooed on my wrist right here. It's my, my daily reminder, you know, every day when I take my shower or just getting changed, you know, you look down, I can't miss it. It's on my wrist. And, you know, I've dealt with a lot of my life, um, You know, the voice in my head is very negative. Very negative. And I know that that's not me.
I read The Untethered Soul. I spent a lot of time searching that. But the conversation that is happening in my head, like, he's a dick. Like, he's not a... You know what I mean? Like, he wants to just tear down and pull down. And, you know, I think... it's very difficult for a lot of people to separate that voice from maybe who they actually are.
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Chapter 4: What personal experiences shaped the guest's perspective on courage?
Um, How do we start to frame ourselves through a filter of courage versus, and we're going to make the assumption that this thought experiment, the person is unhappy with the course of their life or where they find themselves in this moment. So they're not content. They are the opposite of content. How do they start to frame courage in their life?
How do they start to filter their decisions and their thought processes into
through courage to to make those changes because we just we get stuck so many of my friends who who will bitch at me at a little league soft little league game or a basketball game you know you're just chatting oh this and yeah that my wife doesn't this and my boss doesn't this and man i always thought i'd be here whatever right they're just stuck how do we start to break free of that okay
One is just cultivating enough awareness to see that, hey, I'm stuck. And that's a level of maturity, our own evolution, right? And not everyone matures at the same pace. And some people never fully mature. I mean, we know that because we meet. 60-year-olds, 70-year-olds, 80-year-olds who are stuck and sometimes miserable and very complicit in everything they complain about.
So recognizing that we aren't responsible for the families we grew up in, for the environment that we found ourselves in. We are not responsible for that. But we are responsible as adults. with how we choose to live our lives, what we focus on, even our own development, that inward journey, that hero's journey. And not everyone chooses to take that journey.
It's really that inward journey, and I know you're on it. This podcast is part of your journey inward. And psychology, you know, there's a rule that only when the pain of staying where we are exceeds the pain of what it would take to grow, do we sometimes start that journey.
And, you know, I don't know if you know anything much about the 12-step programs and AA, but it's like, you know, does the elevator have to get to the bottom floor? Do you have to lose your family, your business, your reputation, your whole life before you go? Maybe I need to have a look at myself or just to go, you know what? What is it that's not working? Where am I cut off?
Where am I certainly not fully able to feel joy and contentment and connection with people? And where am I complicit? Not just, you know, the victim of my circumstance, but actually...
part of the creator of some of these circumstances, whether it's kids, wife, husband, business, team members, financial, prosperity and health, our wellbeing, our own bodies, which are a reflection of what we think and how we feel. So everyone is on their own journey with that. And that's part of what I love to help people just hold that mirror up
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Chapter 5: How can we overcome the instinct to play it safe?
I also at the same time found myself continually being the confidant of super smart people, like the top lawyer with the top law firm from Australia there and a top, you know, diplomat early in her diplomatic career and that were confiding with me their struggles.
And I was like, how come these smart, intellectually high horsepower people are doing things that are hurting themselves, self-sabotaging themselves, and I'm doing it too. And that really was the start of, for me, a really beautiful, profound, difficult, painful journey of just why is it that we humans who have so much intellectual capacity will do things that hurt us.
And so for those who are listening, I'm sure they're smart. I'm sure they're capable. I'm sure they've got lots of strengths and skills and have done lots of awesome things. And yet my guess is they sometimes are stuck in these patterns of thought behavior that sabotage themselves and that don't lead to greater health, greater happiness, richer relationships.
And so I think it's just getting really present to our lives and being able to take a really hard look in the mirror and go, what is it about what I'm doing and how I'm thinking that's actually creating suffering in my life? And I think of suffering as anytime we're not really connected to sense of peace and purpose and
and optimism, faith, you know, in ourselves, if not in a higher power, God, whatever, whoever it is that how you construct that for yourself, therein lays some rich, rich, fertile ground for self-discovery.
Yeah, I agree. I had, it's funny, I've done a tremendous amount of work on myself and there's I've always had this yearning and maybe the core of why I do this podcast is just, I've always wanted to figure out like how good I can be. I don't know. That's probably my intrinsic motivation is like how good can I be? Can I stay fit in my fours? I'm going to be 45 this year.
Can I make lots of money or enough to be ā we'll consider standard American wealth the lack of necessity to think about everything you spend money on, right? So it doesn't mean you're a multimillionaire. It just means when you go out to the steakhouse, you don't have to worry about appetizers and a second drink. Um, you know, can you, you know, write a bestselling book? Can you do these?
So how good can you be? Okay. And, and I've done a lot of work. I've had a counselor read. Okay. And then two years ago, um, I had a fairly bad.
business experience founded a company grew the company sold the company and then the company that bought that company trashed it destroyed it i watched my baby get murdered in front of my eyes and um and then all of a sudden it was over and this thing that i had attached my identity to and had plans to operate run grow for time you know important uh infinite
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Chapter 6: What strategies help in building mental fortitude?
And yet, you know, it's through the cracks where the light gets in, right? You know, the bigger the breakdown, the greater the potential for breakthrough to another level. And so, yes, I don't think we ever get rid of it. And I'm really curious to know, Ryan, what's been the breakthrough? What's been the new blossoming and growth for you on the other side of that?
Grace for myself? Has been the biggest one. Like, it was very humbling, right? Because up until that point, I felt like I had... I don't want to say mastered my mind, because that's a little too far. But, like, that I had built the habits, mechanisms, thought patterns to stay on the path that I desired, right? I thought that I had done all that work.
And that they were well-trod and well-walked and... It was like ā and again, this was ā I guess you could also say this was a big moment. But I thought I was more prepared. And looking back in it, I don't know that I could have done anything different. I think this is ā I also was ā if I was self-evaluating, felt I was ā I did recalibrate quicker than I would have in the past.
So even though I kind of spun off the planet for a second, I was able to kind of bring myself back in faster than I wouldn't have passed. So I tried to give myself some grace there. And then that's where the idea came from of like, dude, like just like, don't always, I can, I can be kind of hard on myself, very demanding. And I just said like, you know,
This is not like a circuit board that you can wire. You have this neural network. You have all these feelings. And then if we get into the spiritual side, there's so much to being a human. Just pump the brakes a little. Grace upon grace. Give yourself some space. And I think what that's allowed me to do is be more self-aware. Yeah.
Because instead of wearing a uniform of like hard charging business guy who's got a podcast and, you know, it was more like, OK, I'm a human being. Here's what I'm good at. Here's some stuff I'm not so good at. And, you know, try to operate more in reality, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Well, you know, you've said a few things and grace. I love the word grace. And in The Courage Gap, the final the chapter there, which is about find the treasure when you trip. You know, either you're going to try something and fail or you're going to fail to try. But either way, life's going to continually have us tripping up. And so what's the gold in that?
And I believe that the only way we can harvest the learning and the growth is and find those seeds that can enable us to grow is by extending some grace inwards. It's by forgiving ourselves for being the unfinished drafts of who we're on the way to becoming. And for you in that moment, it's like, heck, I thought I was ahead of that.
And I think one of the key ways, particularly those of us who are, you know, I'm in the business of personal professional development and I know myself and I've had plenty of moments. I wouldn't even know where to start the list. Probably about 20 minutes ago, you know, like where I am not as together as I want to be where I, you know, all for all the stuff that I do.
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Chapter 7: How do we navigate the influence of social media on our beliefs?
It's like this baseline stress because of all the crap that we're hit with. How do we sort through all this? Like how do we operate? How do we bring that stress and anxiety level down so we can actually move forward in our lives?
Well, I think just taking ownership for what we consume and let in. And, you know, social media, you mentioned it. People might be seeing this video on social media. But I would say we have to be so disciplined and setting up guardrails. Stand guard on the boundaries of what you let in. Because social media is such a source of negativity, of toxic information, of fear and anxiety.
I mean, the algorithms are designed to stoke insecurity, to stoke anxiety, to keep us scrolling, to have us comparing our lot with everybody else's. And so, you know, I think in a world where we do live so much of our time on our devices, sitting there going into the doom scrolling, we have to be so intentional. about what we're letting in.
And, you know, 20 years ago, we didn't know what was happening 100 years ago, we didn't know what was happening in a country, you know, 2000 miles away. Now, we're just getting pummeled with everything all of the time, knowing that it's also pushing us further into echo chambers of self protection. where we have this toxic sense of affinity with all the other people that agree with us.
Yeah, because we all hate them, that common enemy intimacy, which gives us a sense of belonging, false belonging, but still a sense of belonging. And so I see so many people who are just pulled into those polarized corners in ways that aren't serving them, that shut down critical thinking, and that actually stoke anxiety and have it to the point that they can't even see the woods for the trees.
So starting with taking ownership of what are we feeding ourselves? Obviously, not just the food you eat, but the media you consume, the people that you hang out with, the conversations you let in, and being so intentional about making sure that we are spending way more time
in the presence of information, people conversations that is aligning with who we want to be, that is feeding us what is it that speaks into the deepest part of us, into that spiritual aspect of who we are, that I walk away from that conversation a little more connected to the goodness within me and the good that I want to do and the good that I can do and not all of that toxic waste dump that's all around us.
I struggle with this one because I'm of two minds. One, I know that I am happier, more at peace, calmer, more focused when I stay away from all this stuff. I know that for a fact. I used to wear a whoop. I could tell you literally from my heart rate, from how I sleep.
I could tell you 100% the days that I stay away from social for the most part, stay away from my phone, stay away from politics or news, whatever. At the same time, There are insane ideas propagating through our society that I think for the most part are able to propagate because people are not educated on these topics.
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Chapter 8: What practical steps can leaders take to uphold their values?
You obviously watch more of the Grammys than I did because I didn't even realize that. But all I saw is a snippet on my social and I was like, oh, my gosh.
Yes.
So, yeah. But to your point, coming back to your question, because it's a really important question. How do we make sure we don't get pulled into that? And I think just recognizing we are all vulnerable at all times to being pulled into that. All of us are vulnerable at all times. So we have to stand guard. We really have to stand guard.
And that's where creating a little space for ourselves to stop and just notice how we're noticing and noticing how we're engaging and what we're doing and really reconnect with what is really true for me.
Now, you said that you journal. Do you think... I think... I also have this theory that that I'm a huge journaler as well. And to be honest, every time I've had the darkest moment, I've had I've had a dark moment in my adult life. Journaling has been the tool that has brought me out of that dark moment without journaling.
I would not have gotten through even with counseling, even with reading meditation, whatever. I'm not a big meditator, but but journaling has been the tool to get me out. And when people ask me, why do you journal? It's mostly like there's a lot of chaos in all of our brains, and it allows you ā like the physical motion.
I don't believe in ā I don't like digital journaling, handwritten with an actual physical device that physically puts color on a page. It forces you to ā To articulate what's actually going on in your brain. There's a lot of different ways to do it. And I'm not a journaling master. So I have literally no guidance on the best way to do that.
But here's my question. How much do you think is cowardice? And how much do you think?
I don't believe most people actually understand what they believe. I don't think most people have spent enough time actually thinking about who they are, what they believe, what their core values are.
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