Show notes
Think about your favorite teacher. What were they like? What made them your favorite? Now, imagine if your favorite teacher quit their job before you had them in your life. What would you have lost? Think about what future generations of students will lose if more teachers leave because teachers don’t feel valued or trusted or fairly compensated. If things don’t change, more teachers will leave because they are realizing that they can. In this episode, we hear from former teachers who left education and are happier for it.
Music:
Theme Song By Julian Saporiti
“Don’t You Leave” by Crowander is licensed under a CC BY-NC license.
“Happening for Lulu” by Kraus is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license.
“Soldier’s Story” by Blanket Music is licensed under a CC BY-NC license.
“Be Nice” by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license.
“Fireworks” by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license.
“Faster, Sons of Vengeance, Faster!” by Doctor Turtle is licensed under a CC BY-NC license.
“Changing Moment (ID 1651)” by Lobo Loco is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license.
Transcript:
A quick warning, this episode discusses sexual abuse.
During the quarantine, I received an anonymous letter from a former student that had since graduated. After pleasantries, the note says “I’m writing you now to thank you for things that you never knew you did when I was your student.”
And then they go on to explain that though I would not have known this, they had been sexually abused by their father, and they had just found the strength to tell someone, cut ties, and start the healing process. They said that my class was a space that made them feel safe, heard, and respected. They wrote that I helped them quote “understand that there are good men, ones that deserve to be fathers.” end quote
They were intentional in saying that they didn’t know if I would figure out who they were, but regardless, they wanted to thank me and let me know that I played a part in helping them get through the abuse.
Every time I read this letter, it breaks me. I hate that this student had to go through this. I hate their father. I am humbled by the fact that I could be a source of support for this student, and I hope so badly that they can heal.
No kid should ever have to experience this, but they do, and because they do, they need adults, teachers, in their lives that can support them, even if those adults are unaware of that support. We need teachers who are themselves supported and happy and in a space that values them, so that they can be as wholly present as possible for students.
But at this moment in time, many teachers, so of the people that students need most, don’t want to teach anymore. And that fact is devastating.
We’re at the end of this series. We’ve explored a variety of things contributing to teachers leaving the profession - feelings of being devalued, a lack of autonomy, struggles with mental health. We’ve looked at why teachers might be treated the way they have been, from pop-cultural stereotypes to an odd historical inheritance …to having unclear expectations of what education is for. And we’ve even looked at some solutions and where they come from. All of this to make sense of why teachers might be leaving, and to draw attention to the fact that without authentic and relevant change that is not the burden of teachers, teachers will keep leaving.
Today, we will hear teachers who left education explain how their lives are now, and we will explore some resources available to teachers who are looking to leave education. And from what I’ve heard through interviews and people reaching out to me because of this podcast, a vast majority of teachers that have left the classroom are much happier. So, if nothing from this season has convinced you that we need to do something to keep teachers in education and something real, maybe this episode will. I am not saying this as a threat, but from the perspective of a realist. Think of it as a natural consequence. Refuse to address and take genuine action to keep teachers, or they will find their way out of education because they can. And in this present moment, they will likely be happier for it.
This is the finale to Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. I’m Charles Fournier.
Here is part 7: “Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore”
Camile Lofters reached out to me in the early stages of this project. Camile was a high school English and journalism teacher in south Florida. She left teaching after 15 years in the classroom , and she was one of those people that felt destined to be in the classroom.
Camile Lofters: I feel like teaching was in my blood. My mom was an early childhood education major and taught preschool, and, you know, lower elementary school. So I mean, I grew up watching her, and wanting to emulate her. So I would line up my stuffed animals and like, I had a little pointer, and I would teach them things. And when I graduated, I was so excited to start teaching that it was like everything to me.
But like most of the people that shared their stories throughout this podcast, Camile left. And even though she is from Florida and most of the other folks I’ve spoken with are from Wyoming and the west, Camile’s reasons for leaving were the same. She pointed to not being trusted or seen as an expert, to politicians that oversteps their role in education, to low pay, to being undervalued, and the list goes on. And like the other teachers, Camile still values education.
Camile Lofters: Even though I did leave the profession, I still love teaching, and I still think it's one of the greatest professions. But as we all know, in our country, education system is a little broken, maybe it's a lot broken is a better way to say it. So, I feel like when the pandemic happened, it sort of broke everything wide open forever for a lot of people. I mean, it's not like it's just me.
We haven’t addressed the pandemic much throughout this series. Not because the pandemic didn’t have a significant impact on teachers deciding to leave, but because the reasons teachers are leaving didn’t start with the pandemic.The pandemic forced teachers to reflect on what they’re willing or not willing to accept. Camile reflected on whether she could teach for another two decades.
Camile Lofters: And the answer used to be yes, I'm going to teach until I’m 60. And when it started to become like I don’t know, and then it was like, definitely not. And I was like, this means I need to do something else. You know, if I'm feeling that way, it's not fair to myself, my family, but also I think to the students. They deserve to have teachers that are really excited to be there. And yes, I am a good teacher and I could go back and still I think do a good job, but I just feel like mentally I would be falling apart and that's not that's not really fair to anybody.
You’ve heard this throughout the series. Many teachers are leaving because they know that they aren’t doing their job as well as they want to, so they leave. The pandemic contributed to this. More teachers thought about what they could and couldn’t do anymore. The pandemic made the job more difficult. Skepticism of teachers rose, student and parent behaviors became worse, everyone’s mental health seemed to get worse, and more expectations were placed on teachers. Teachers know this, but when more is put on a teacher’s plate, it’s usually not taken off.
Camile felt this, and she also had a daughter in the middle of it all.
Camile Lofters: That 2020-2021 school year was just really, really difficult. And so then by the time my daughter was born, you know, in June 2021, I was like, No, this is this, I gotta find something else.
So she started the process of looking for something that she could transition into. And she was looking for something that would allow for more financial opportunities. On top of having a daughter, feeling all of the frustrations and stressors of teaching and the impact of the pandemic, Camile wanted to be paid better.
Camile Lofters: Pay was a big part of it. It's really disheartening to work so hard for so long and never see an increase in your salary. I graduated from college with all my friends, we were all making about the same amount of money. And now most of them are making double, if not triple you. You know what I'm making. I worked really hard to be a good teacher and constantly doing professional development and looking for new strategies. And so I think it's disheartening to not have that come with any sort of raise and compensation. So I will say that that was definitely a factor when I realized that if you account for inflation, I had basically never gotten a raise, like ever.
And her only prospect for a raise was to become an administrator, despite all of the extra work she’d done like designing curriculums.
Camile Lofters: And I hate when people say, “Well, you didn't go into teaching for the money.” Well, of course I didn't, but I'm a human being that needs to survive, I have a family and I would like to be able to provide for them.
Pay matters, so Camile left teaching and transitioned into a new career where she feels better about the pay.
Camile Lofters: So, I've been making a little bit more money, not a ton, but a little bit, and it does matter to me, because there is the potential for me to make more money. In my job, I have the potential to earn more, And there's a lot of room for growth. And so that was very appealing to me, to actually be in a position where there could be more upward movement in my salary.
Camile acknowledges that she now has to pay her own health insurance which means her take home pay is about equal to what she was making as a teacher, but that doesn’t matter to her.
Camile Lofters: I’m so much happier that it feels different. It feels like I'm making more money.
And her transition out of education allows her to continue working with kids, which is something many teachers point to when deciding whether or not they will leave.
Camile Lofters: I am the photography manager and sales representative for a school photography company, I was a yearbook teacher for eight years. So the company I work for, actually, I used to be like, a customer of theirs, like I was the teacher, and they were my photography company.
And her transition to her new job has been pretty smooth.
Camile Lofters: And I love it. It's a great job for me. I use a lot of skills that I already had as a teacher. I already knew part of the business because I was a customer, so I already know the customers want, what they need, that sort of thing.
Part of what made her transition smooth was her willingness to learn. The people that I have talked with that successfully left education did so with humility, knowing that they had a lot of great skills, but that they also had a lot to learn.
Camile Lofters: So learning the business side of things, I am literally always just sitting in my boss's office whenever possible, just like listening to him talk about the business, because it's just mind blowing to learn.
Camile Lofters: And I'm still learning because obviously our company's since it's a school photography company, we follow the school year, and each phase of the school year brings something different. But yeah, I'm really excited about it. I think it's cool to always be learning something new.
So Camile left teaching, but she still gets to take part in the things that she enjoyed about teaching.
Camile Lofters: And I get to work with teenagers all day long at a really exciting time in their lives. They're doing, you know, they're seeing your pictures and their, or their school pictures. And they're usually pretty excited about that. So just making them feel good. You know, like, establishing a rapport with a teenager is hard for a lot of people. It's not hard for me. It's something I did all day long. So it's been really cool to use my teaching skills in a new way.
But the things that are different about education are well worth it.
Camile Lofters: I have just a lot better work life balance, now. So my schedule is flexible. If I need to leave early one day, I can just schedule to have an early day or come later or you know, be closer or farther away from home. So that's really nice. I also get to actually speak to adults during the day, which is great. That's always nice. You know, really silly things like I can use the bathroom whenever I want to.
And the common rebuttal for why teachers shouldn’t complain about their jobs, you know, summers off, Camile doesn’t mind not having her summers off.
Camile Lofters: There have been several people still to this day, who are like, “Oh, well, don't you miss having the summer off?” and different kinds of things like that. And I think at the end of the day, having a summer off is great, but if you feel like you're only living your life in those two months of summer vacation, and then the rest of the year, you're miserable, then like, what good is that?
She has more financial opportunities and she feels happier. And contrary to any stereotypes, her leaving education doesn’t mean that she hates kids or that she is anti-education. She has this to say to teachers who are struggling with that aspect of leaving education.
Camile Lofters: So I would just say that and that, if you are thinking about leaving the classroom, that doesn't make you a bad teacher. That it's normal to have those thoughts, and that's okay.
Camile advocates for teachers as much as she can, and she feels like being outside of the classroom gives her some opportunities to be a little more vocal - especially in Florida where teachers have been egregiously attacked through politically charged legislation like the don’t say gay bill, the stop woke act, the overall rejection of AP African American history, and sadly the list goes on. She uses her social media platform to share her voice.
Camile’s sense of relief and happiness upon leaving education is not unique. This shouldn’t be the case. And teachers aren’t quitting to sit around, they are going into other careers, which may make it very difficult to lure them back to the classroom. If we want teachers to stay in education, education needs to be more appealing than the other options available to them.
Jaye Wacker, who we heard from in the first episode, left teaching after being in the classroom for three decades. He is now a Senior Public Information Officer at the Wyoming Department of Administration and Information. Like Camile, Wacker feels like life is better.
Jaye Wacker: I work for a director, who is one of the themes in Administration and Information that she keeps hammering is work life balance. And I don't feel like teachers have work-life balance in the slightest. Well, yeah, it's balanced, but it's balanced one way you know it. And that's tragic. That's no way to live. It's no way to draw great people into the profession. There has to be a balance. There has to be a…there's something more than the paycheck.
Wacker uses the portrait of a single day to explain how his life is different since he left teaching.
Jaye Wacker: Sundays, I was the worst person to be around, hard to be around. And whether I was working on my lesson plans for the week or trying to devise something, or even just putting it off, because I didn't want to deal with it. Waiting until Hannah was in bed Sunday night, and then sitting right there at the end of that dining room table, with my books, holding back the curtains and trying to figure out what's the best way to reach and meet the GVC.
As a reminder, the GVC, or Guaranteed and Viable Curriculum, is the effort to standardize education, and acts like a middle-man to the Common Core Standards. So, for Jaye, his quality of life on Sundays is better because he isn’t having to use Sundays to prepare for the week. He doesn’t get those Sunday Scaries anymore.
Jaye Wacker: I can do whatever, and then just go to work the next day. I go to work, and the sun's up. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've sat in the room and watch the sunrise.
And like Camile, losing out on summers wasn’t a big deal, contrary to the cultural stereotype that teachers only work for the summer.
Jaye Wacker: I'm a firm believer that June, July and August are not the three best reasons to be a teacher. In fact, they're probably the three worst because people who think they're the three best, they're miserable nine months out of the year. And so I really kind of stressed about how am I going to deal with summer. And last year, I didn't even notice. I didn't even notice. And this year, the only thing I know is that, oh, my daughter's not in school anymore. And I just go to work and it's chill, and I work with good people. And I used to say teachers worked 12 months and nine. It's more.
Wacker misses some of the people, he misses the kids, he misses the conversations, he misses the books, but he doesn’t miss how he felt. He still has some leftover traces of being a teacher ingrained in him.
Jaye Wacker: If somebody's in my office, and we're just having a conversation. I feel a little bit of panic. I literally do. Because I have that feeling like I need to be doing something else. I don't miss the pressure. It is and it's gotten geometrically more pressurized in the last few years. I don't miss that a bit. I and that's part of what I couldn't take any more. I couldn't take the pressure anymore
The pressure and stress Wacker was feeling was keeping him from the people that matter most to him. Now he gets to spend more quality time with them.
Another aspect of why teachers left teaching was being trusted. For Stephanie Reese, the opportunity to make more money and to feel respected was huge in why she changed careers. We’ve heard from Stephanie several times over the course of this podcast. She was a PE teacher and she left teaching after eight years. She is now the general manager at Black Tooth Brewing Company in Cheyenne, Wyoming.
Stephanie Reese: I have a fantastic boss, but I'm basically my own boss, because I'm here in Cheyenne. And they're up in Sheridan. So I'm trusted to make decisions. And I don't have anybody breathing down my back. And, you know, I think the trust is the biggest thing.
With that trust, comes a feeling of being valued, which equates to getting paid better.
Stephanie Reese: When my boss offered me stock in the company, like having a part of something, being a part of something because you earned it, and being promoted like that was definitely like, Oh, this is not education. And yeah, I mean, I'm definitely surprised each day. I'm like, wow, this is so much better than each day because you're just not enduring the shit that goes along with everything, like you can actually do your job. Right? So many more distractions when you teach or, like expectations, or having to juggle this, this and this, or do all of this without any support. And you're expected to do this. And so with this job, like, I can just do my job. It's a really good feeling.
And if this isn’t clear, Stephanie’s quality of life is much better. Not only does she feel satisfied in her work, she is making more money than she did as a teacher. This has been a theme, many of the people that talk about a pay increase also express a feeling of being valued more in their new jobs. Stephanie explains that her job is not without stress, but it feels different.
Stephanie Reese: I can tell, okay, all this work I'm putting in the stress is worth it, because we're making money. And so I love that aspect of it. Teaching in a lot of ways is you give and give and give and give and give and give a whole lot more. And then, oh, here's a $5 gift card to Starbucks. Thank you so much for all of what you do. Like that, to me in a nutshell is teaching. There's no appreciation for it. Really, maybe superficial, but not individualized.
Stephanie was adamant that teachers that are suffering and not enjoying their work need to reflect on what they want out of their life because change is possible, and it might not be worth waiting for the system to change around them.
Stephanie Reese: Life is too short, to waste time or thinking about, well, if this happens, then I'll be happy. You've had to figure that out now, because it's just way more important. The positive is driving it, especially me quitting it, it definitely was driven by wanting more positive in my life rather than negative, and it is worth it to change. So if you're scared, or if you feel like you need more help, there's so much out there so many people, especially nowadays who have been through the same thing.
And as you’ve heard, people are transitioning into a variety of different careers - all resulting in better qualities of life. They transitioned into careers that fit them best. Stephanie manages a bar, Wacker works for the state, Camile works for an education adjacent company, and Ron Ruckman, who we heard from a few episodes back left teaching after 23 years to work in construction.
Ron Ruckman: My mental state has always been that way in the summer, like any mental state is so much better. I'm so much happier and so much less stressed. Because I go to work and we have fun and we joke around and we do our thing and we all we kind of work together and everybody respects each other and we know that each other can do the job, but I go to school and I always kind of feel like, there's always somebody watching me thinking like somebody is constantly evaluating every second of everything I do, which they're probably doing construction, but it doesn't feel like that for some reason. Why, I don't know?
Ron is happy not to have to manage the emotional baggage of teaching. He doesn’t have to manage other people’s emotional wellbeing in construction.
Ron Ruckman: It just builds. I don't have that with construction. You know? If so and so wacks their thumb, you're like, Well, that was dumb, move on, you know, or whatever. Or they got a rough family life, that's your deal, dude. We're gonna get back to work. Yeah, we got things to do.
It’s hard to make non-educators understand the level of relief people feel when they leave the profession. For Ron, it was the ability to not feel so emotionally overdrawn.
For my wife Jennie, who left teaching after 7 years to pursue her MBA and Pharmacy degrees, it’s a matter of feeling valued and being fairly compensated for the work she does.
Jennica Fournier: When I told people, I just I can't do education anymore. I can't do the parents. I can't do the administrators and everything. People said, well, you know, patients can be really rude to pharmacists. And pharmacists don't have it easy either. And they work really long hours, and they're on their feet all day. And I just thought, yeah, that is all the same things that I'm going through, but I will get paid two to three times more than I would as a teacher. And that's significantly different. And I feel compensated, but not just like a monetary compensation. I would also get respect in the community. People would respect my opinions more. You know, if I ran for office as a pharmacist, I think that I would get respected more than running for office as a teacher. So I think you get more reward than you do. I guess you get more benefit compared to your risk.
This goes back to the need to value educators. That means seeing them as human beings, not martyrs, not saints, not slobs. It’s not allowing stereotypes to dictate how teachers are treated or viewed. For Jennie, she felt a clear difference in how she was treated outside of education.
Jennica Fournier: So some of the MBA events, just the networking that happened and the high level conversations that you were able to have with other people that didn't focus around children. I suppose the first time that I was at a networking event. I felt very much like respected and I felt interesting. That was kind of the moment where I was like, Wow, I'm outside of this upstanding member of society realm. I mean, as of as a pharmacist, do I still have to be a professional and live my life? In a, in a good way? Yes.
Jennie is happy to be away from the unrealistic expectations of being a teacher. These are the stereotypes that we discussed in an earlier episode.
Jennica Fournier: To be a good teacher, it means that like, I'm pure, and I'm thoughtful, and I'm helping and I'm a martyr. It's not like she's teaching to the highest level of her degree, and she has all the best training to be a teacher. I don't really feel like that's what people think of when they think of a teacher. Like she's teaching the top notch science, the highest level science that she can and the newest things. That's not what people remark about with their high school teachers. They remark about how friendly are they?
And this shift out of education has done wonders for how she feels about herself.
Jennica Fournier: My self-esteem is incredibly higher than it was before. I get a lot of positive affirmation, and I get it from my peers and my teachers in this setting, and I feel very accomplished here.
I want to pause here for a moment. You might be thinking, Charles, this is starting to sound kind of repetitive. Well that’s because it is, because I cannot stress enough that teachers are leaving their jobs, and when they leave, many of them are happier. When I asked former teachers what it would take for them to return to education, a few said they would consider returning if their new career didn’t work out and education had tremendous reform. One said a quarter of a million dollar salary. And most said they would NEVER consider returning.
Shane Atkinson is one of the people who is much happier after quitting teaching. He is now working in government and he feels like he’s valued and trusted. Shane is the person in the first episode that explained how education was like an abusive relationship. Being in a new career only highlights how glad he is to be out of teaching.
Shane Atkinson: Every morning, I start work at 9am. If I drive to work, it takes me three minutes. I ride my bike almost every single day. Takes me 20 minutes to ride my bike. So quality of life wise, I've been sleeping better than I have, in my entire adult life. I sleep so well, I wake up feeling refreshed, I wake up at the time that I would have had to be at work before. And I sit around, I read the news, I listen to some music, I drink coffee, just have these nice, leisurely mornings.
For example, Shane compares what it’s like being late at his new job versus what it was like to be late as a teacher.
Shane Atkinson: I was five minutes late, one day, probably two weeks into starting at this office. And I did not have a sense of doom. I didn't feel like my boss was there and you know, walk in and she's like, Hey, how's it going? No, no big deal whatsoever. I remember multiple times administration would be sitting by the door where teachers come in, basically keeping notes who's here two minutes late.
And in this new career, he feels like he is receiving what he needs to feel sustained and supported.
Shane Atkinson: The other thing where I work now is just incredibly supportive. My boss, my immediate supervisor, my head boss, they actually seem to value you as a human being. It's crazy, I didn't even realize that was a thing. And I'm sure it's probably not everywhere. But I just feel absolutely valued.
If I said, I had a really hard day today, and we have those hard days. And I just need some time. Great Take, take tomorrow, take a mental health day you've earned it, you know, would be the narrative. If I get off a very tough call, or a rough meeting, right, we deal with some pretty sensitive things, sometimes people even more so than education, but I can hang up for that call. And I can go for a while. I'm not ruled by the bell schedule.
So, all of these former teachers left education, and are happy with their new careers. And I know this is a small sample of teachers - 5 teachers don’t represent all teachers, but their stories and their experiences cover the gamut of what I’ve heard from teachers across the country. Based on my experience, a majority of teachers that have left education are happier. If we want to keep good teachers in education, teaching has to be more appealing than alternatives. Because right now, folks are willing to go back to school, jump into completely different fields, work in the service industry, work constructions, lose out on the retirement plans and insurance plans, in order to get away from being a teacher.
And those that don’t like their work but remain in education, may have a variety of reasons for doing so. Shane speculates on why folks stay when they don’t want to be there.
Shane Atkinson: I'm here because I have to be here because I need my health insurance. I'm here because I need a steady paycheck. I'm here because this is a big one. What else am I going to do? Who else? What experience? Do I have to go out and do something else? Right? And it's, it's actually really difficult. I read a lot about this when I left, because I had no clue what I was going to do.
That last piece of what Shane is getting at, the “I don’t know what else I can do” is a big hurdle for lots of people. Many teachers have spent every year of their lives in school either as a student or as a teacher. Many don’t know anything else, so transitioning might be terrifying. They may have also bought into the rhetoric that teachers aren’t able to do anything else, “Those who can’t do, teach,” which I think we’ve established is a ridiculous saying that should go the way of the dodo.
And if you are among the folks that think teachers are only able to teach, and nothing else, you are gravely mistaken. And that assumption is tied to why teachers are treated poorly. The assumption that teachers are stuck could be contributing to why teachers aren’t being valued. To make sense of this, here is a quick example. One of my favorite poems by Wallace Stevens has this line, “Death is the mother of beauty.” So without death, we might not recognize beauty. Now, when thinking about teachers, without the threat of teachers leaving, teachers might not be valued like they should be. It’s a catch-22. When teachers quit, they are valued, but teachers are quitting because they aren’t valued.
So, in order for teachers to be valued, it might require more teachers to leave the profession. And for folks who want to leave, but don’t know how to make the transition, there are people who help teachers figure out how to transition out of education. Meet Daphne Gomez. Daphne is the Founder and CEO of the Teacher Career Coach, a company that helps teachers transition out of the classroom.
Daphne Gomez: So if they don't make changes to how much we ask of teachers, how much we pay teachers, it's gonna continue to get worse. It's not worth it for people to be in a position where they're being beaten up.
Daphne helps teachers leave education. She is not the reason teachers want to leave education. She is not responsible for teachers that are overworked, payed poorly, treated poorly, and devalued. She is someone who tells teachers that it’s okay if they want better for themselves. Teachers are not limited with what they can do. And from what Daphne has seen, folks that are leaving are doing well.
Daphne Gomez: We have to lower class sizes, we have to be able to improve our funding for teachers salary, we have to make changes as far as that goes, because right now teachers are hearing stories of people who are leaving. I can say 85% of over 300 teachers that I surveyed just last week, have either matched their salary or increased their salary with whatever position they took after leaving the classroom following my resources.
Teachers have a lot of skills that can translate into new careers. This is a reality that non-educators need to be aware of. And teacher attrition will only get worse because teachers are seeing their former colleagues leave, make more money, and feel happier in their lives.
Teachers are tired of being beaten up, so they are leaving teaching because they are realizing that they can. I don’t blame them. And there are times when I envy them - when I hear how happy they are or when another bad piece of legislation or policy is voted in, I think, “I could do something else” and feel pretty good about it.
As a former teacher, Daphne is well aware of the difficulty of being a teacher and the struggles of trying to leave the profession.
Daphne Gomez: For me, when I started thinking about leaving the classroom, I was breaking down, sobbing on the way to work. I was going into the hospital, not every day or anything. But there are about three different times that I went to the doctor and he said, these are weird, stress related illnesses, it does something to your body. But something about it did not work for me anymore. And when I started to tell my coworkers I am not going to a different school district, I'm just gonna find a different job and see if that helps me heal, everybody's first sentence out of their mouth was, “You can't leave. You're a good teacher. Children need good teachers.”
The people that said this to Daphne were not bad people. I heard this when I stopped coaching. It’s not that people are trying to guilt teachers into staying - it’s that they want good teachers to stay, but they have nothing to offer except “you’re good at this.” It goes back to that stereotype that a teacher should just continue the job because they are doing a good thing, but again, teachers should be treated like martyrs. And being good at something isn’t enough of a reason to continue doing it. Daphne wants to change this view of leaving education.
Daphne Gomez: There's really never been that discussion of it's okay to walk away from it. Even if you're good. Even if you're happy. You can be the best teacher in the world and very, very happy. And then someone offers you something that's $10,000 more, and you absolutely can leave for it. But we've never had those discussions.
Daphne Gomez: I think that there is a system of emotional blackmail and gaslighting that's been going on in the education system for a really long time. And I think that they know that they can hold children above teachers' heads. They can use that year over year over year.
But as we heard from the teachers earlier in the episode, many of them left even though they liked to teach or they enjoyed the kids. None of them left and said, “I hate kids.” This is an easy way for people to demonize anyone that thinks of leaving and to guilt teachers into staying. This isn’t a healthy way to keep teachers in education. This is that abusive relationship that Shane pointed out at the start of the series. Part of what has allowed this rhetoric and guilt to work for so long is the fact that teachers didn’t think they had a choice. But they do have a choice. Part of what set Daphne on the path to create The Teacher Career Coach was to address the problems she had with leaving education. She reflected on her own experience in order to help others. She started by asking questions about her experience.
Daphne Gomez: Why was that so hard on me? Why did I feel this need to stay in a career where I was truly breaking down? And why was it such a hard decision for me to actually leave? And how can I help other people who are struggling with that?
For Daphne, some of this starts with addressing the guilt teachers have when trying to decide to walk away.
Daphne Gomez: I've seen the guilt, where people are offered positions, and they've said, I can't do it. I want to stay one more year because my grade level team and I have a lot of work. And I think where a lot of this comes from is because we went into this position because we want to help others. Every single thing that you do in teaching impacts children that impact students, it is something that you're super passionate about. So every time that you sacrifice three hours of your own personal life after you're done working, that students leave, you're done working, quote unquote, done working, and then you sit down and you do something for three more hours.
Teachers care about their students, and so much is put on teachers’ shoulders that it can be hard for them to make self-serving decisions. But being selfless is not often sustainable nor healthy.
Daphne Gomez: But then at some point, you reach this breaking point of I have to put myself first and that is not something that you have done in this position. I've heard of teachers, you know, staying in very extreme situations or the guilt getting so bad that they talked to therapists for five years and the therapists really were begging them you are not doing well mentally in this role. You have to leave and they would just push back and push back and say I can't leave. The students need me. I can't leave.
But they can, and they are, and for many of them, the decision is better for their mental health. Still, that doesn’t make leaving easy.
Daphne Gomez: We're going to hurt our coworkers, we're going to potentially hurt students. And for people with huge hearts that go into this, to help other people that is, you know, the biggest hurdle to get over is knowing that your ACT may be selfish people may think of you differently, everything that you've done as a teacher for, let's say, you were in the classroom for 10 years, the second you decide you want to leave and become a project manager, everybody's gonna say, Oh, she's selfish. And that's hard for us to really deal with mentally.
The ability to leave education might be getting easier though. The rhetoric around leaving this “forever career” is being challenged and teachers are calling out the stereotypes. More teachers are leaving because more teachers are realizing that they can leave. This means that the guilt of ‘doing it for the kids’ isn’t enough to keep teachers in. Culturally, we need to recognize that guilt is not a good teacher retention plan. Teachers are seeing successful examples of people leaving education all around them.
Daphne Gomez: The correlation between how people are talking about teaching, and that it's okay to leave teaching, and people actually leaving teaching in mass quantities cannot be ignored. I think that it was something that was supposed to be your forever career. The second you go into teaching, you are there for 30 years, there's not a career trajectory. And besides becoming an admin, This is going to be like what you do until you are retired.
With the language around leaving education changing, mass amounts of teachers are hearing that it’s okay to leave an unhealthy work environment and find work that will better serve their well-being. So there will be more openings and less teachers to fill those openings, which means that education will suffer. And hopefully nobody wants that, but that’s where we are headed. Teachers are realizing that the burden of staying in education isn’t theirs alone, and if education suffers, it is because of a larger failing of the community and government to value education and the those who work in education So until the burden of keeping teachers in education gets picked up by non-educators, this will continue.
And Daphne is trying to make it easier for folks to see their options, not by just challenging the rhetoric around leaving education, but by providing resources and services to help teachers leave. Daphne’s company has created a variety of resources to help teachers adjust and market their skills for outside of education. They have developed a Podcast, Courses, and even a jobs board to help teachers find a good fit for a new career. There is so much her company does to support teachers, and I asked her, based on her experience helping teachers transition out of education, what she has noticed teachers struggling with.
Daphne Gomez: It's not a valid one, but the self doubt, and even the lack of career preparedness isn't the right word for it. But I would say, the lack of experience with writing resumes and interviewing this is somewhat unique to teachers. They don't have the experience of working in corporations. So there's a lot of upskilling that needs to happen.
Daphne wants teachers to have a growth mindset. There will be a learning curve in this transition, and she encourages teachers to remain humble. Yes, teaching is a difficult job, and teachers have a lot of skills that will translate well into other careers, but there will still need to be some learning, as Camile pointed out earlier in the episode. Daphne doesn’t sugarcoat the reality that leaving education can be stressful but it’s important to be honest and express a willingness to learn while highlighting how teaching translates into the role they’re interviewing for.
The voices from earlier in this episode all had pretty clear paths to new careers. But there are teachers that just want out. Daphne warns against flailing and reaching for any opportunity, but she does emphasize that this transition doesn’t have to be a forever career.
Daphne Gomez: And then once you get your foot in the door at a company, if it's a large enough company, or something that you're really passionate about, after a few years, you can always use that as a stepping stone to pivot into a different department and get an internal promotion. It's so much more common outside of the classroom than people realize. They think that whatever this next career is, is going to be, you know, the end for them. But you're not picking your next forever career. You're picking your next starting point.
When thinking about the former teachers we heard from at the start of this episode, many of them relied on some of the skills they had as teachers, but some of them leaned into the skills and interests that they had outside of education because they are dynamic human beings. Ron went into construction. Jennie leaned into her love of science, but the soft skills she developed as an educator has helped her tremendously with interacting with and explaining things to patients.
Like Daphne pointed out, the thought of leaving education leaves me with a sense of guilt. The thought of working in a different career feels a little intimidating, but I know that what I’m doing now is not sustainable.
It’s been close to a year since I wrote the grant to start on this podcast, and in the development of the series people suggested that my conclusion should include a big reveal, like my declaration to leave education. That sounds cinematic, and if we’ve learned anything, it’s that education is not a movie. I don’t have any insight into what my future of teaching will look like. All I know is that I am hopeful that education can get better, but I know that unless something changes, what I’m doing now can’t last.
So instead of a reveal or a declaration, I’ll leave you with my advice if you want to keep people like me in the teaching profession. We need good teachers to want to stay in education, and it is not their sole responsibility to make education a place they want to stay. We need a cultural shift that values education and values educators. So, talk to teachers. Let them know you appreciate them. Listen to their stories and experiences, and don’t rely on unrealistic stereotypes.
Push back on the anti-intellectualism that Ray Bradbury warned us of 75 years ago. Listen to experts. Make informed decisions based on facts and evidence. Come to terms with the fact that education should serve a diverse population of people, and if you are not okay with that, find an alternative to public education. And lastly, Vote for people who value education. Speak out against legislation that does not serve all students.
And if that sounds too difficult, then know that more teachers will quit. Teaching vacancies will mount, class sizes will grow, the teachers that remain will get stretched even thinner, and rushed solutions will put unqualified people in front of your children. The diverse population of students in our country will lose out on opportunities and the education they deserve. And public education, as it was established in the US, to create a well informed populace so that we may have a thriving democracy, will suffer, which means democracy will suffer because it’s far easier to take advantage of an uninformed, poorly educated populace than one that is well informed and willing to challenge and question and speak up. And it will happen not out of spite or teachers trying to prove a point. It will happen because it’s a natural consequence of the current conditions people are in. So be an active part of the solution, not the problem.
If need be, start small. Think about my motto from the road trip class from a few episodes back: Just try to not be an asshole.
As always, thank you so much for listening. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share episodes with everyone you can think of. Word of mouth has done wonders for getting this podcast to people who need to hear it. You can also follow us on instagram at those who cant teach anymore.
This episode was produced by me, Charles Fournier. It was edited by Melodie Edwards. Other editing help came from Noa Greenspan, Sarah-Ann Leverette, and Jennica Fournier. Our theme song is by Julian Saporiti. All other music can be found on our website. A special thanks to Camile Lofters, Jaye Wacker, Shane Atkinson, Jennica Fournier, Stephanie Reese, Ron Ruckman, and Daphne Gomez for sitting down to chat with me. If you want to follow Camile Lofters on instagram, you can find her at in literal color. If you are interested in Daphne Gomez’s podcast or any of her resources, check out teacher career coach dot com. And As the season is coming to a close, I want to give a special thanks to my brother Cody and my nephews Finn and Ollie for traveling around Wyoming with me to collect interviews. To the Josie family for letting Jennie and I stay with them for a month and for setting up an office for me in their basement. To my Uncle Richard and Aunt Pattie who let me set up a workspace to produce the 4th episode while we stayed with them over the holidays. To Jennie for coming up with the name and logo for the podcast and for always being my sounding board. And to Fund for Teachers for providing me with the fellowship that got this project rolling.
Again - thank you for listening, and don’t be afraid to advocate for teachers so that we can keep brilliant teachers in education.
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