Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Welcome to Untap the Extra Mile. I'm Spencer Matthews. I'm Olly Patrick. Indeed. Indeed you are. And today's topic is alcohol. It's one that people are increasingly aware of. I think with the rise of more easily accessible information and data, I think people are already making better decisions around alcohol.
I mean, Gen Z just drink an awful lot less than certainly millennials and older people. This is not really a trend. It's a movement now away from alcohol. And before people think that we're just going to drone on about how bad alcohol is, we both enjoy a drink from time to time.
And we're by no means anti-alcohol, but thought it would be interesting to dig into alcohol and the effects that it has on the brain and body.
Chapter 2: What are the effects of alcohol on the brain and body?
I think... at a surface level, we're all aware that drinking alcohol to excess is bad. Yeah. You know, it feels bad. Yes. And, you know, everyone, or at least most people listening, know what it feels like to be hungover. And, you know, abusing anything, to be honest, is not to be recommended. But I was wondering if you might be able to break down Well, firstly, what is a hangover?
What's happening to your body? Like when you wake up feeling hungover, what has happened to your body and what is your body processing?
It's processing a poisonous toxin, really. You know, we've got to start with the bad news and we'll end up with some hope, you know, and some sense of where alcohol sits in a healthy ecosystem. But it is a effectively poisonous. It's a toxin to the body. And it's got such a range of difficult things that challenge our physiology.
I think a hangover, which is still a great debatable piece, sits fairly confidently in at least two places. One is through the role that alcohol has in suppressing sleep quality in terms of the cycling of sleep, but also the duration of sleep is compromised through alcohol, despite it helping you fall asleep faster. So it drives quicker sleep, but it's not quality sleep and it's disruptive.
And then the hangover seems to have some relation with the fact that alcohol is creating inflammation of the brain. So it's the byproduct of all the neurotransmitter disruption, of all the byproducts of toxicity seem to create an inflamed brain. It is a very physiological entity to which there is no magnificent cure other than not consuming more alcohol than your body can process.
Why does it feel good? It's always felt good. It's interesting, the history of alcohol, it's been intertwined with sort of human connection for thousands and thousands of years. So alcohol is sort of biblical. Alcohol is far beyond that in terms of people used to make mead, which was fermented honey. And fermented fruits have been a sort of staple part of animals and humans for forever.
But certainly, it's been a big part of our bonding. And it feels good because it does a range of things that do make us feel good. So alcohol on the brain in particular, and alcohol is quite special because it's water and fat soluble. And that basically means it can get everywhere.
So as water soluble, more likely to travel in my blood, fat soluble means it can enter cells because the walls to my cells are made of fat. So it's basically, it proliferates pretty much all the tissues of the body, but particularly the brain. And the brain is protected by this thing called the blood-brain barrier, which basically stops any nonsense going up into this most valuable of organs.
But alcohol gets in there and gets in there rapido. And when it's in there, it creates a change in neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters are this chemical element that... make the neurons of the brain talk to each other and communicate signaling of the brain. And people might have heard of GABA, which is a neurotransmitter that makes us feel calm.
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Chapter 3: What causes a hangover and what happens to your body?
I smash a couple of bottles of mead into you and you feel it less. No doubt you felt it a lot, but you feel it less. So alcohol has this sort of extraordinary cascade of neurological impacts where it's calming my brain initially, reducing my activity in my frontal lobe, eliciting feelings of pleasure and joyfulness in endorphins. And that can create a feedback loop that encourages me
to pursue it again, despite the fact the following day I woke up with an inflamed brain, poor quality sleep, and a sense of latent anxiety in some cases. And that propensity to feel the impact of those neurotransmitters and those who are more sensitive to it, less sensitive, there's so much individuality in people.
But there are things about alcohol that certainly correlate with pleasure and a returning desire to engage with it again. That's very physiological.
Is it Anna Lemke's seesaw effect in the brain? Firstly, what is your view on that? So basically, you get these large dopamine releases from drinking lots of alcohol. And then you essentially... The seesaw dips back down to neutral, but then dips into pain. So you must pay for the dopamine that you have borrowed, essentially, from drinking alcohol. The view of some...
is that, um, quick, easy dopamine release must be paid for, you know? Um, so whether that be smoking, gambling, porn, alcohol, sex, you know, you're giving yourself this clean dopamine hits from toxicity essentially. And, um, that dopamine level drops it doesn't just stay level at neutral it seesaws and you know you pay for it with pain anxiety you know in some cases depression yeah bad sleep um
Is it that balancing of the seesaw, if that's the case, that makes people keep jumping in? You know, and I have experience of this myself, where you're in a really kind of toxic relationship with alcohol. For many years, I drank to excess incredibly regularly.
And that image of the snake eating its own tail almost springs to mind, you know, where you... I'm just wondering now that, you know, I've been clear-minded for a while. Is... Are you just trying to skew the seesaw in your favor by just getting back on it? You know, I also know some people who regrettably, you know, they drink, you know, quite a lot.
Not regrettably, I guess that people should do whatever they like, right? Like, I've been there before. I'm happier now. That's my own personal view. Yeah. But, you know, is it that, you know, drinking again and again and again just to try and chase the normal level? Or is that a completely different question?
Or, you know, what would be your view on why people continue to do things that they know to be harmful?
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Chapter 4: How does alcohol affect sleep quality and duration?
phrase. Dopamine that's given cheaply will come at this theoretical cost, which will be a sort of malaise or a low mood state that is compensatory for this cheap thrill of dopamine. And you probably know the work of TJ Power, who created the dose effect, talking about how we can really reinvigorate our dopamine pathways through reduction of these sort of cheap thrills and very rapid access.
In many ways, the brain is calibrating, as we've spoken about before. If it's regularly encountering this high level of dopamine, these high levels of endorphins, and then that is taken away and there's a sort of concurrent lull, the natural predisposition of humanity would be to pursue the original behavior that got you there in the first place.
How you break that cycle, who's more susceptible to staying in it, and those other elements are probably nuances that we've got to then look at the addictive side sort of pathways and dive into that, which I'd be remiss to give expertise on, pal, because I'm on thin ice in that area and there's some brilliant experts.
It is interesting though, isn't it? Because I recently read a book called Addiction is a Choice, which is pretty controversial for obvious reasons. I mean, the title itself is very controversial. Provocative. And I've been there where you feel like you don't really have a choice. It's a strange feeling. You feel like the first drink of the day is just baked into what's going to happen.
It's like you almost, because you're, in my case, losing control and you know, a really slippery slope with alcohol, which obviously, you know, is a toxic and addictive substance. It's odd to feel that way when like, you know, a certain time of day comes around and it's almost like you just... It feels normal to just walk into... Exactly.
To just walk into a pub or a bar, have a quick beer, bam, out. You know, and it's obviously... For me, that kind of behavior carried a lot of shame because you kind of know, well, God, I shouldn't really feel the necessity or need to do this. But, you know, you're kind of doing it anyway.
So, you know, and then I read this book, which essentially is saying that first drink is completely your choice. Like nobody is holding a gun to your head. The second and third and fourth drink, once you've had the first, you may be beyond your tipping point. You may have no control past that point. But human beings... essentially have control of their behavior to some degree at least.
And I just found it pretty interesting. I don't really have a view on it. I feel like I've been on both sides of it. Obviously, now I feel like I can walk past a bar and make a decision whether or not I feel like having a drink or not. And that obviously feels normal to most people, I think.
But I certainly went through a phase where I felt like I had less choice than perhaps I would have been comfortable with. And I just find it interesting. I know you're not an expert on addiction, but... when you take drugs, alcohol, when does addiction come into it? Do you know from a scientific perspective?
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Chapter 5: Why does alcohol make us feel good initially?
I don't know. I think that I know one of the foundations of addiction is it's become a habit. And therefore... To get out of that cycle of addiction, we're into some pretty complicated science of habit breaking. And getting out of a habit requires more than this sort of concept of willpower.
And of course, there are extraordinary medications that can help people get out of these patterns of addiction. And I believe it should be done firmly under the care of a healthcare professional and those people who are wondering whether they're addicted or not and whether they can get out of that pattern should be curated in their journey.
And again, if they're listening to this podcast, then this might be the instigation to check it out. But ultimately, the pattern of behavior has become ingrained. And then we look at the neuroplasticity of breaking that habit, which requires concerted and deliberate effort and is far greater than I've just got the willpower to quit.
And a lot of people beat themselves up about willpower, but willpower doesn't get you a habit and willpower doesn't necessarily get you out of a habit. And addiction has its roots in far more complicated things than willpower.
Is it a myth that that like a couple of drinks will make you better at something. So kind of like, do you know what I mean? No, it's not. Like it may be that, you know, you feel that a couple of pints will make you a better darts player or, you know, it may even be that, you know, a couple of drinks might make you feel like you're a better lover. You know, what...
Is there any truth to that or is that just freeing your mind a bit and taking on the alcohol, being a little less nervous in the moment and essentially tapping into some potential higher performance or is that just not relevant?
In certain sports, it could be performance enhancing. I'm not calling sex a sport, but I would say sex needs its own little caveat. I think there you get an awful lot of my prefrontal
cortex is going oh god what do we look like naked and oh god i hope i'm you know an absolute stallion and you have a couple of drinks i don't care about any of that stuff i'm going in so i think that there is validity to that that we hold ourselves back and what's the stallion's name um samson samson Samson doesn't care about any of that. Nor should he.
So Samson aside, people have some level of reservation. Interestingly, you know, we used to have, I think it was Bob Werbenek, who was a snooker player who would regularly sort of smash through eight pints Canadian while playing snooker. And what you've got with pub sports is they're sports that you tend to get slightly better at because alcohol reduces muscle tremor.
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Chapter 6: What is the role of neurotransmitters in alcohol consumption?
And people have historically tried to ban alcohol at different periods. The prohibition era failed because alcohol, the lure of it was so great. that the whole alcohol industry went underground. And that tells us a little bit again that this is something that is fairly hardwired into our way of connecting and being with other people.
The challenge of what we are social creatures... Could you not say the same of drugs?
I know we've moved off piste a bit though, but like, you know, for example, it also has a stigma attached to it, right? You know, if somebody were to say, hey, mate, you know, I'm giving up cocaine... you'd say, that's a very good decision. I wholeheartedly agree with your decision to give up cocaine. Whereas most people, when they say, I'm giving up alcohol, people go, oh, why? You know, when?
But they're not worried. They're worried about your interaction with them. So, you know, I want to spend time with you and I want that time to be of even keel. And it's a social wellness play. And humans... our tribal creatures. We're looking increasingly at who lives longest and who lives most well. It's those who move in tribes and have strong connections with others.
And we shouldn't need alcohol, but we haven't easily got the replacement for the social wellness that it provided. And people are looking for that. Social wellness as a concept, which might be getting groups of people together away from the presence of alcohol, but in the presence of low and no options and hot and cold. So communal bathing is having a resurgence not seen since the Roman times.
Suddenly there are 100 person saunas and cold water plunges with adaptogenic bars popping up in every major city in the world. Why? Because this group of people who want to be with other people, but don't want the sort of deleterious effect of alcohol are coming up with new ways of doing it. So I think it is a fascinating time where we know we need, I want to hang out with you. How do we do it?
And alcohol has been a great vehicle for us both losing that bit of inhibition, bringing us together, taking us to a third place, not my home, not my place of work, a third space, which humans have historically needed. Now that third space is gone, and maybe even the second place is gone because I work from home. So where do I meet people? Where do I connect with others?
Where do I not go where everyone agrees with me, you know, an echo chamber. And, and in the absence of an alternative, we still potentially lean back to alcohol. And I, a big believer in finding new ways of creating real social engagement without needing alcohol, but they're lagging behind the demand, which is I demand connection.
And I haven't yet found my perfect vehicle to establish it with my peer group. I think it's an absolutely fascinating blend of social behaviors and historical evolved physiology and modern day marketing. We're right in the middle of it. Your point earlier is there's no right or wrong. Government guidelines are pretty clear.
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