Show notes
On this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Dr. Nirali Jain (eggspert_md), a board-certified OB/GYN and reproductive endocrinologist at Reproductive Medical Associates (RMA). Dr. Jain shares her expert insights on fertility preservation for individuals undergoing cancer treatment, a crucial yet often overlooked aspect of reproductive care. We explore what options are available for fertility preservation, including egg and sperm freezing, and why it's so important to initiate these discussions before starting chemotherapy or radiation. Dr. Jain also explains the difference between Letrozole and Clomid, the impact of estrogen-sensitive cancers on IVF treatments, and innovative approaches like random-start cycles and DuoStim protocols. Whether you're facing a cancer diagnosis or simply thinking proactively about your reproductive future, this conversation is filled with knowledge and reassurance. Key Takeaways: Why it's essential to discuss fertility before starting cancer treatment. The role of Letrozole in estrogen-sensitive cancers and fertility preservation. Differences between Letrozole and Clomid, and why Letrozole is often preferred. How new protocols like DuoStim and random-start cycles are improving outcomes. Why fertility preservation is important even for those without a cancer diagnosis. Guest Bio: Dr. Nirali Jain (@eggspert_md) is a board-certified OB/GYN and fertility specialist at Reproductive Medicine Associates (RMA) in Basking Ridge, New Jersey. She earned both her undergraduate degree in neurobiology (with a minor in dance!) and her medical degree from Northwestern University, before completing her residency at Weill Cornell/NYP, where she served as co-Chief Resident, and her fellowship in reproductive endocrinology and infertility at NYU Langone. Deeply passionate about women's health and fertility preservation, Dr. Jain blends the latest research and cutting-edge treatments with compassionate, patient-centered care. Her interests include third-party reproduction and oncofertility, and she is especially passionate about supporting patients navigating fertility preservation through a cancer diagnosis. Outside of the clinic, Dr. Jain is a trained dancer, a dedicated global traveler, and an adventurer working toward hiking all seven continents with her husband. Her diverse experiences, from international medical rotations to personal connections with friends and family navigating infertility, have shaped her into a warm, resourceful, and determined advocate for her patients. Links and Resources: Visit RMA websiteFollow Dr. Nirali Jain on Instagram ----------------------------- For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. -- Transcript: # TWF-Jain-Nirali (Video) [00:00:00] **Michelle Oravitz:** Welcome to the podcast Jain. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Thanks so much for having me **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, so. **Michelle Oravitz:** I'm very excited to talk about this topic, which, um, actually you don't really hear a lot of people talking about, which is how to preserve your fertility if you're going through a cancer diagnosis and if you have to go through treatments. 'cause obviously that can impact a lot on fertility. **Michelle Oravitz:** I have, um, seen actually like a colleague of mine go through. And she also preserved her fertility and, and now she has a baby boy. so it's really nice. **Michelle Oravitz:** to **riverside\_nirali\_jain\_raw-video-cfr\_michelle\_oravitz's \_0181:** so nice. **Michelle Oravitz:** So I'd love for you first to introduce yourself and kind Of give us a background on how you got into this work. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Of course. Um, so I am Dr. Narly Jane. I am, um, an OB GYN by training, and then I did an additional, after completing four years of residency in OB GYN and getting board certified in that, I did an additional training in reproductive endocrinology and [00:01:00] infertility or otherwise known as REI. So now I'm a fertility specialist. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, I trained at Northwestern in Chicago, so I went to undergrad and medical school there. And then, um, home has always been New Jersey for me, so I moved back out east to New Jersey. Um, I did all my training actually in New York City at Cornell for residency and NYU for fellowship. Um, and then moved to the suburbs. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, and now I'm a fertility specialist in, in Basking Ridge at Reproductive Medical Associates. **Michelle Oravitz:** Very impressive background. That's awesome. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** I'd love to hear just really. About what your process is. If a person has been diagnosed with cancer, like what is the process? What are some of the things that you address if they are trying to preserve fertility, and what are some of the concerns going **Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah, yeah. All great questions. So, you know, there's a lot of us, uh, the Reis. Are a very small, [00:02:00] there's a very small number of us. So in terms of specializing in fertility preservation, technically we all are certified to treat patients with cancer and kind of move them through fertility preservation before starting chemotherapy. **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, luckily we've been working closely with oncologists in the past several years just to establish some type of streamlined system because having a diagnosis of cancer and hearing all that information. Especially when you're young is so hard. So I think that's, that's where my interest started in terms of being able to speak to and counsel cancer patients. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I think it is a very specific niche that you really have to be comfortable with in our field. Um, I. So I'll kind of walk you through, you know, what it, what does it look like, right? Um, you go into your oncologist's office suspecting that you have this, this lump. I'll take breast cancer, for example. It could really be any kind of cancer. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, but breast cancer in a reproductive age patient or someone that's in those years where you're starting [00:03:00] to think about building a family, planning a family, um, or if you have kids at home, that's usually the type of patient that we see come in with a breast cancer diagnosis. So. Kinda just taking that, for example, um, the minute that you're diagnosed, it's really your oncologist's responsibility to counsel you on what treatment options are going to be offered to you. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** And then based off of the treatment options, it's important to know how that affects your reproduction. So how does it affect your ovaries in the short term, in the long term, um, in any way possible. So. Once a patient is initially referred from their oncologist to myself or any other fertility specialist, they come into my office and we just have a 30 minute conversation really talking about family planning goals. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Any kids that they've had in the past either naturally conceived or through um, IVF, and then we talk about where they're at in their relationship. Are they married, are they not? Are they with a partner, [00:04:00] a male partner, a female partner, whatever it might be. It's important to know the social standpoint, um, especially in this sensitive phase of life. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So patient patients usually spend anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. Um, just kind of talking through where they're at, how they're feeling, what their ultimate childbearing goals are. And then from there we do an ultrasound and that's when I'm really able to see, you know, the, the reproductive status. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So what do the ovaries look like? What does the uterus look like? Is there something that I need to be concerned about from a baseline GYN standpoint? Um, and all of those conversations are happening in real time. So. I think one of the things is patients come in and they're like, I'm already so overwhelmed with all this information from my oncologist, and now my fertility specialist is throwing all this information at me. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Luckily, the way I like to frame it is you come in and you just let go. Like you let us do the work because in the background we're the ones talking to your oncologist. We're the [00:05:00] ones giving that feedback and creating a timeline with your oncologist. Um, and really I think just getting in the door is the hardest part. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So once patients are here to see us, we go through the whole workup. We do anything that we would do for a normal patient that came in for fertility preservation. And then based off of where they're at in their journey, we talk about what makes sense for them, whether that means freezing embryos, freezing eggs, they're very similar in terms of the, the few weeks leading up to the egg retrievals. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So I have that whole conversation just at the initial visit. And then from there we talk about the timeline behind the scenes and make sure that it works with their lives before moving forward. **Michelle Oravitz:** So for people listening to this, why, and this might be an obvious question, but to some it might not be, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle Oravitz:** why would somebody want to preserve. eggs or sperm. 'cause I've had actually some couples **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yep. **Michelle Oravitz:** come to me where the husband preserved the sperm and they had to go through IVF just because he was going [00:06:00] through cancer treatments. So he had to preserve the sperm ahead of time. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle Oravitz:** people need to consider doing that before doing cancer treatments? **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So there are certain cancer treatments that do affect the ovaries and the sperm health, and you know, for men and women, it affects your reproductive organs. In a similar way, um, depending on the type of chemotherapeutic agent, there are some that are more dangerous in terms of, um, being toxic to your ovaries or toxic to your sperm. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** And those are the instances where we are really thinking about what's the long-term impact because there's medications that oncologists do give patients, and our oncologists are amazing, the ones that we work with, Memorial Sloan Kettering from Reproductive Medical Associates through RMA, um, and. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** They're just so good at what they do and are so well-trained, so they know in the back of their mind, is this going to impact your ovaries or your sperm health or not? Um, and I [00:07:00] think that any chemotherapy, you know, your ovaries are these, these small organs that are constantly turning over follicles every month. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So every month we're losing those eggs, and if they don't become. If an egg isn't ovulated, it doesn't become a baby, it's just gonna die off. So I counsel even patients that don't have cancer, I counsel them on fertility preservation as young as possible. You know, between the ages of 28 and 35, that's like the best time to preserve your fertility. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So in cancer patients, there's an extra level added to that where even if they are a little bit younger, a little bit older. Your eggs are not gonna be the same quality. There's gonna be higher level of chromosomal errors, more DNA breakage, um, and, and bigger issues that lead to issues with conceiving naturally afterwards. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So I think that it's important to consider how that chemotherapy is going to affect them or how surgery would affect them if it was, for example, a GYN cancer where [00:08:00] we're removing a whole ovary, you know, what, what do we have to do to preserve your fertility in that case? And those are important conversations to have. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. for sure. I know that a lot of people are also concerned, you know, with going through the IVF process, you're taking in a lot of estrogen, a lot of hormones, and many cancers are actually estrogen sensitive. So I wanted to talk to you about that. 'cause I know that the data shows that it's. It's been fine, which some people might find surprising, but I wanted you to address that and just kind of **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** from your perspective. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** That's so interesting that you asked that question because I actually, my whole I I graduated fellowship last year and my entire, like passion project in fellowship was looking at one of the drugs that we use to suppress the estrogen levels specifically in cancer patients. Um, and I had presented this at a few of our reproductive meetings. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, A SRM is one of our annual meetings where all of the reiss get together. A lot of male fertility [00:09:00] specialists come and we kinda just talk about. Specific things and fertility preservation for cancer patients is, has been an ongoing topic of interest for all of us. Um, and it's important to know that there are different medications that we can offer. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Letrozole is the one that I, um, have a particular love for and I, uh, you know, I use all the time for my patients, um, for different reasons, but it suppresses the exposure that your body has to estrogen. And there's mixed data, um, out there in terms of, you know, does Letrozole suppression actually impact, you know, does it help or. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Or does it have no impact on your future risk of cancer after treatment? Um, and that honestly is still up for debate. But what we do know is that there's no increased risk of cancer recurrence in patients that have undergone fertility preservation with or without Letrozole. Um, Letrozole is one of those things that we can give, and the way it works is basically. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** It masks that [00:10:00] conversion. It, it doesn't allow for conversion from those androgens in the male hormones over to estrogen. Um, and so your body doesn't really see that estrogen exposure. It stays nice and low throughout your cycle, and it does help with actually ovarian maturation and getting mature eggs harvested and, um, helps a little bit with, with quality too. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So I think that it's really nice in terms of having that available to us, but know that. It's not, it's not essential that you have it, really, the data showing plus minus. Um, but there are certain things that we can do to protect the ovaries, protect your exposure to estrogen. Um, and so that shouldn't be top of mind of concern when we're going through fertility preservation, even with an estrogen sensitive cancer. **Michelle Oravitz:** Actually, so, uh, on a different topic, kind of going back to that, so Letrozole versus Clomid, I, it's like a, the questions I personally feel just based on what I've heard and like my own research that Letrozole would be kind of like the more. [00:11:00] Um, the, it's, it's a little better, but I know that it really depends on the person as well. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** they might do better with Clom, but I'd love to hear your perspective and kind of pick your brain on this. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** totally. You're choosing all the, all the right questions because these are all of my, my specific interests and niches. So **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Letrozole is basically, you know, we use Letrozole and Clomid in. Patients that don't have cancer and patients that come in for an intrauterine insemination, that's kind of the most common scenario where we're thinking about, you know, which medication is better? **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Letrozole or Clomid and Clomid used to be the, the most common medication that we use, we dose patients, you know, have 50 milligrams of Clomid, give them five days of the medication. It's an oral pill. Feels really easy and. The way it works is really, it recruits more than one follicle, so it really helps with the release of, um, more than one follicle growing more than one follicle in the ovary. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, but it has a little bit [00:12:00] higher of a risk of twins because that's exactly what it's good at. Um, Clomid, not so much in the cancer. In the cancer front, it's not really used there because it's considered, from a scientific perspective, it's considered like a selective estrogen receptor modulator. So it doesn't necessarily suppress your estrogen levels in the same way that Letrozole does versus. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Letrozole is an aromatase inhibitor, so it really blocks the chemical conversion of one drug or one hormone to the other hormone. Um, the reason we love Letrozole so much, and I don't mean to like gush over Letrozole, but um, it's a mono follicular agent, so it works really well at recruiting one follicle **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** you know, every OB-GYN's nightmare in a way is having multiples when you didn't intend on having multiples at all. **Michelle Oravitz:** so **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um. **Michelle Oravitz:** were saying that, um, there's more of a chance of twins, it's Clomid, not letrozole. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yes, there's a higher chance with Clomid versus Letrozole. And I mean, don't get me wrong, there's a chance of twins with [00:13:00] any type of assisted reproductive technology. Even when we're doing single embryo transfers, there's a chance that it's gonna split. So, um, the chance is always there just like it is in the natural world. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** But we know for a fact that. CLO is really good at recruiting many follicles. It's good for certain patients that don't respond well to Letrozole. Um, but Letrozole is kind of our, our go-to drug these days just because of all the benefits that we've seen. **Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** These are all fun things to ask because I, I love talking to our eis 'cause there's so much information that I'm always **Dr. Nirali Jain:** totally. **Michelle Oravitz:** learn a lot from my patients in my own research, but it's really cool. Picking your guys' brains. So another question I have, and I have actually talked to Dr. Andrea Elli, he's been on, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle Oravitz:** and he does a lot of endometriosis and, and immune related work as well, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** so. I'd love to know just from your perspective. One thing that I do know from, based on what I've heard is that the, [00:14:00] guess like you were just saying, that breast cancer or estrogen sensitive breast cancer doesn't seem to be affected by IVF cycles, however, and endometriosis lesions do get affected. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** that's a great question. So, you know, every, there are so many complex G mind diagnoses that the, that our patients come in with. Um, and endometriosis is a big one because there is clear data that endometriosis is linked to infertility. So we think about, you know, when a patient comes in with endometriosis, we really do think about the different treatment options and what are the short-term and long-term impacts of the hormones that we're giving 'em. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, these days, again, kind of going back to Letrozole, we, letrozole is something that I give all of my endometriosis patients because it helps suppress their estrogen because we know. **Michelle Oravitz:** interesting. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** is very responsive to estrogen and leads to this dysfunctional regulation of all the endometrial tissue that can really flare in a, [00:15:00] in a cycle, or shortly after a cycle. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I. So we really, for endometriosis patients, the, the best treatment is being on birth control because we don't see that hormonal fluctuation. The up and down of the estrogen and the progesterone, that's what leads to those flares. Um, so I really, I watch patients closely after their cycles too, because you definitely can have an endometriosis flare and we say the best treatment for endometriosis is pregnancy, right? **Dr. Nirali Jain:** That's when you're suppressed, that's when you're at your lowest. Um, and patients, my endo patients feel so good in pregnancy because they have. Hormones that are nice in that baseline, they're not getting periods of course. Um, and that's truly, truly the best treatment. **Michelle Oravitz:** That's interesting. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** But it is important to consider when you're going through infertility treatments. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** How does my endometriosis affect the short and long-term effects of the fertility medications? And really not to, not to say that they're bad in any way. I think a lot of endometriosis patients go through IVF and have success and do really, really well, and that's kind of the push that they need. [00:16:00] Um, but it's important to be mindful of the bigger picture here. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** It's not just, you're not just a number of. A patient with endo coming in, getting the same protocol. It's really individualized to the extent of your lesions, what symptoms you're having, what grade of endometriosis, where your lesions are. So we're the RAs are thinking about everything before we actually start your protocol. **Michelle Oravitz:** It's crazy how in depth it is, and it's, it, there's just so, it's so multifaceted, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** when it's females **Dr. Nirali Jain:** totally. **Michelle Oravitz:** are a little, I mean, they can, you know, there, there's definitely a number of things, but it's not as complicated and interconnected **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Exactly. Exactly. That's so true. **Michelle Oravitz:** And so one question I actually have, this is kind of really off topic, but something that I was curious about. **Michelle Oravitz:** 'cause I heard about a while **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** a, a type of cancer treatment that was used. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but for some reason it actually caused follicles to grow, [00:17:00] or to multiply. And they were **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Interesting. **Michelle Oravitz:** this definitely. Puts, um, the whole idea of like a woman being born with all the follicles she'll ever have on its head, I thought that was really Interesting. **Michelle Oravitz:** Now I learned a little bit about it. I don't think it really went further than that, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle Oravitz:** one of those things that they're like, Hmm, this is interesting. I don't know, it was kind of a random side effect of this chemo drug. I dunno if it was a chemo drug or a cancer drug. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** ever heard of that. **Michelle Oravitz:** So I was just **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I haven't, I mean, that's interesting. I feel like I'd have to look into that because that would be definitely a point of interest for a lot of Reis. But it kind of does go back to the point of, you know, women are really born with all the eggs we're ever gonna have. So it's about a million, and then it just goes down from there. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** And the, by the time you start having periods, I like to kind of show my patients a chart, but you have a couple hundred thousand eggs and you ovulate one egg a month. That's, you know. Able to [00:18:00] progress into a fertilized egg and then into a, an embryo into a baby, um, if that's your goal. But otherwise, patients that are having periods and not trying to actually get pregnant, we're losing hundreds of eggs a month. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So. **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** It's important to kind of think about that decline, and it's important to know that that rate can be faster in patients with cancer, patients with low ovarian reserve. And sometimes when you have the two compounded, that's when a fertility specialist is definitely, you know, in the queue to, to have a discussion with you in terms of what that means and how you can reach your family building goals despite being faced with that, with that challenge. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** I mean, 'cause we know oxidative stress is one of the things that can cause, uh, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** quality eggs, but it's also can cause cancer. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** um, similar, you know, like things that really deplete the body could definitely impact. Um, and then what are your thoughts? I know I'm asking you all kinds of random questions, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I love it. **Michelle Oravitz:** are your thoughts about doing low simulation in certain [00:19:00] circumstances versus high stem? **Michelle Oravitz:** Sometimes people don't respond as well to higher stems. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, that's a great point. I think that it kind of all goes back to creating an individualized protocol. If. A patient's going to a practice and basically just getting a protocol saying, this is our standard. We start with our standard of, you know, I, I think about the standard, which is 300 of the FSH or that pen that you dial up, and then 150 units of that powder vial. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** And we have patients mixing powders all the time, and that's kind of our blanket protocol that we give patients. But that's not really what's happening behind the scenes. And if you're given a protocol that's, and being told, you know, this is kind of what we give to everyone, it's probably not the right fit for you. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, I **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, there are certain patients that respond to a much lower dose and do really, really well, and then some patients that need a much higher dose. Um, and I think it's, that's kind of like the fun part of being an REI of being able to individualize the [00:20:00] protocol to the patient. Um, and I know for a fact there are so many, luckily, you know, we have so many leaders in REI that have been. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Have dedicated their entire careers to researching these different protocols and how they can help different patients. Um, patients with lower a MH, you know, might benefit from a duo stim protocol, for example. That's kind of the first one that comes to mind, but a protocol where we're using those follicles from the second half of a cycle. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I would've never thought that those were the follicles that **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** would be better than the first half of the cycle, **Michelle Oravitz:** Wait, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** but, **Michelle Oravitz:** that. Explain that. Um, because I think that that's kind of a unique **Dr. Nirali Jain:** mm-hmm. **Michelle Oravitz:** that I haven't heard of. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, so there's this new day. It's still kind of developing, but um, kind of going back to, you know, what's an individualized protocol? Duo STEM is one of the newer protocols that we've started using. I, I've used it once or twice in patients. Um, but it goes back to the research that shows that you might actually have two different periods of time in a menstrual cycle where you could potentially recruit [00:21:00] follicles. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** You could have a follicular phase where there's a certain cohort of follicles recruited, and then you have a follicle that forms creates a corpus glut. **Michelle Oravitz:** um, protocols **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yep. And then you basically go through the follicular protocol and then a few days after a retrieval, instead of waiting for a new follicular cohort or follicular recruitment from the first half of your menstrual cycle, you actually use the luteal phase and you recruit those follicles that would've actually died off or have been prematurely recruited in a prior cycle. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So **Michelle Oravitz:** that's So **Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** you just do a similar, I guess, um, medicine, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** go right back into it. **Michelle Oravitz:** do the same exact thing, but right after ovulation. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** Fascinating. That's really interesting. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** has been your experience with that? **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I think it's, honestly, it's mixed. Um, so far, you know, our data from fertility and sterility and A SRM, it, it shows support for these DUO STEM [00:22:00] protocols, saying that if patients don't have that great quality of eggs or if they have a very low number, maybe they'd benefit from starting the meds earlier and recruiting follicles. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** A little bit earlier. Um, so we've seen positive results so far. A lot of work to be done in terms of really understanding it. Um, and of course, as a new attending, I have a lot more experience to kind of build on. Um, but I, I have seen success from it. **Michelle Oravitz:** That's fascinating. Are there any other new technologies, like new add-ons, um, that you've seen, that you've found to be really cool or interesting? **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I think the biggest thing, actually, kind of going back to our whole topic for today is fertility preservation cancer patients. One of the biggest things that I've learned recently is that we used to start fertility, um, patients. You know, only in the beginning of the cycle days, two or three is technically like when most. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Most clinics, um, start patients, but for our cancer patients, sometimes you don't have that time. You don't wanna wait a full month to [00:23:00] restart, um, your, you know, your menstrual cycle and then do the fertility preservation and then delay chemotherapy a full month. So we started doing what we call random starts. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So you basically start a patient whenever they come in. You know, it could be the day after your consultation, the day of your consultation. I've kind of seen all of the above. Um, and we've seen really good success with random starts, per se. Um, and we've been doing a lot more of that, where it's not as dependent on where you're at in your cycle. **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, obviously there's a difference in outcomes. You might not be a great candidate for it, so definitely it's worth talking to your doctor about it. But it kind of gives relief to our cancer patients where if you have a new cancer diagnosis and you're like, oh, I just finished my period, like, I can't even start a cycle until next month. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** That's not always true. Um, so it's always worth it to go into see a fertility specialist and just get, you know, get the data that you need right away, and then you can make a decision later on. **Michelle Oravitz:** For sure. Um, Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** and I wanted to kind of cover a lot of different topics 'cause I know that [00:24:00] some people are gonna wanna hear what you have to say that don't necessarily, or, uh, have cancer. But it is important. I, I think that, you know, if you get to thirties and you haven't gotten married or you don't have a partner, I think it's really important to preserve your fertility in general. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** important thing. And then if you were going through a cancer diagnosis and you decided to preserve your fertility, um, guess more for women because they're eventually going to be thinking about transfers after they go through treatment. So what are some of the things that they would need to consider as far as that goes? **Michelle Oravitz:** Like after the **Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** then they go through the cancer treatments. Um, and then what, how long should they **Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah. Like what does it look like? So I've had patients that come back, you know, in my fellowship training I did a, a couple research projects on patients that came back to pursue an embryo transfer, um, after chemotherapy agent. And basically compared them to how they did, um, [00:25:00] compared to patients that didn't have cancer and just froze their embryos or froze their eggs and then came back to pursue a transfer and. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I think the, the most reassuring thing from the preliminary data that we have is saying that there's no difference in pregnancy rates and no difference in life birth, **Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** of whether they had chemotherapy or not. After freezing those eggs and going through fertility preservation. **Michelle Oravitz:** Amazing. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, in terms of where your body needs to be, I think the oncologist, we, we wait for their green light. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** We wait for their signal to say, you know, she's safe to carry a pregnancy. **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** And then once we do that, we basically treat you like any other patient. So if you're coming in for a cycle, if you're having periods, then it's reasonable to try a natural cycle protocol, wait for your body to naturally ovulate an egg. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** And instead of obviously hoping that egg will fertilize, we, um, use a corpus luteum. We use the progesterone from the corpus luteum to really support this embryo being implanted into the uterus. Um. Yeah. [00:26:00] And then there's also another side. I mean, some patients don't get their periods back and they always ask like, what if I never get my period back? **Dr. Nirali Jain:** What if I'm just like in menopause because of the chemotherapy agents? And for that, we can start you on a synthetic protocol or basically an estrogen dependent protocol where you take an estrogen pill for a certain number of days. We monitor your lining, then we start progesterone, um, to support your hormones from that perspective instead of relying on your ovaries to release the progesterone that they need, um, and then doing the embryo transfer a few, few days after progesterone starts. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So there's definitely different protocols depending on where your menstrual health is at after the chemotherapy or after the cancer treatment. Um, but it's important to kind of just know that. That there's options. It doesn't mean that it's the end of the road if you all of a sudden stop getting your period. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, for sure. I mean, 'cause you, technically speaking, you can really control a lot of that. More so for transfers **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yep. **Michelle Oravitz:** Retrievals really is kind of like what [00:27:00] eggs you have, what the quality is. But people can be in complete menopause and you guys can still control their cycles for transfer, which is kind of. A huge difference **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** in the **Dr. Nirali Jain:** exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** interesting. Any other, um, new, new things that you're, you guys are excited about? I always like to hear about like the new and upcoming things **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Of course. **Michelle Oravitz:** actually before, which I thought was fascinating. Yeah. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I feel like there's always like updates and, and new data and things like that coming out, but just know, I think it's important for patients to know, like we're constantly, we're, the reason I chose to even pursue this field was because it's new. Right. There's something that we are discovering every day, every year, and that's what makes our, our conferences so important to attend, um, to really just stay up to date. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, but we are, uh, constantly updating our embryology standards, the way we thaw our eggs, and the success rate associated with a thaw and [00:28:00] how we treat our embryos and the media that we use, right? Like, so we're really thinking about the basic science perspective every single day, and that's what makes this field so unique. **Michelle Oravitz:** It is really awesome. And so do you guys specialize specifically on, um. Egg freezing and, and I mean specific fertility preservation in patients that do that have cancer that are going through treatments, do you guys specialize specifically in that? I mean, I know you do range **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. Yeah, because it's such a small community, we all have our own niches and we all kind of have our own interests and **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** no like specific training. There are a couple courses that you take that I took in in training as well, just to kind of understand what it sounds like to, I. Council of fertility preservation, patient with and without cancer. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, and then, you know, you kind of just learn by experience and you form a niche for something that you're passionate about. 'cause that's what makes you, you know, really thorough in, in your treatment. [00:29:00] So that's one of my interests. Um, and, but I would say, **Michelle Oravitz:** training for that. It's just like **Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** just know how to treat that in **Dr. Nirali Jain:** exactly. **Michelle Oravitz:** especially if you're interested in doing that. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Exactly. That's exactly right. It's kind of, it just comes with the experience comes with your mentors and who you're surrounded by, and everyone kind of helps each other get to that point. But there are several specialists in our practice at RMA that specialize specifically in fertility preservation in cancer patients. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So we have a close communication with our oncologist and they know who to refer to within the practice because everyone has their own little interests. **Michelle Oravitz:** Amazing. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** Um, definitely. I, like I said, I really enjoy picking your brain because it's a lot of fun for me. I, I do **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Totally. **Michelle Oravitz:** acupuncture, so **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** and I, I think that it's just so crazy that our fields don't work together. I mean, we kind of do, but I think, I just feel like it would be so great **Dr. Nirali Jain:** exactly.[00:30:00] **Michelle Oravitz:** the expertise because you guys have immense. Benefits like in, in, uh, technology and incredible innovations and, and then the natural aspect of really understanding the, the body. And I, I just think that it would work so amazing together if it was more of like a thing. 'cause it, I know in China they actually combine the two **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** eastern. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, I mean I think that that's so important and there is data that shows, you know, there's actually a recent study that came out just a few weeks ago on the benefits of acupuncture for fertility patients. And we know that, I mean, I recommend it to all of my patients, specifically the day of the embryo transfer. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** We, luckily, we offer it on site at RMA and we have acupuncturists that come in and, and do a session before and after the embryo transfer, and I think. A lot of that is targeted towards stress relief. But I also think that holistically it's important to feel at your best when we're doing something that's so crucial to your, to your health. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So to really focus on the diet, focus on stress relief, [00:31:00] focus on meditation, yoga, whatever it takes to get to your best wellbeing when you're going through fertility treatments, um, is so important. So I appreciate **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** like you that really specialize in the other side of. Of this, because I do consider it still part of the holistic medicine that we need to really maximize success for our patients. **Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. Well, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** Jane, this is such a pleasure Of talking to you. You've given us some, so much great information and we've definitely dived into a, do a topic that I don't typically, I haven't yet spoken about. But, um, that being said, it's such an important topic to talk about. And thank you so much for coming on today. **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** course. **Michelle Oravitz:** I get off, how can people find you? **Dr. Nirali Jain:** That's a great question. So I have, um, a social media page. I, it's called Expert nc. So like EGG, **Michelle Oravitz:** I **Dr. Nirali Jain:** um, expert nc. Try, tried to make it a little bit humorous. Um, but I'm all over social [00:32:00] media and would love to hear from anyone that is listening. I, you know, every, every day I get different, um, dms and I'm happy to respond. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I love hearing about everyone else's. Stories and things like that. Um, so that is kind of my main, main social media platform. Um, and then through like RMA and Reproductive Medical Associates, we also have a YouTube channel. We have an Instagram page, um, of our office available, um, as well that is public. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So you can find us pretty easily if you just kind of hit Google. But um, yeah, I'm kind of developing my social media platform as the expert and I hope it grows. **Michelle Oravitz:** Love it. Great. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** was such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you. so much **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Thank you. **Michelle Oravitz:** today. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Of course. Thank you so much for having me. [00:33:00]