World of Sharks
Episodes
Parasites! The World Inside of Sharks with Dr Bjoern Schaeffner and Dr Jaime Penadés Suay
18 Jun 2026
Contributed by Lukas
Parasites have a bad rep. We often see them as harmful, exploitative, and just plain icky. But in the shark world, parasites are much more than just i...
Ask Us Anything About Sharks (Round 2)! With Dr James Lea
04 Jun 2026
Contributed by Lukas
We're diving back into our mailbag to answer more of your burning sharky questions! In this episode we address all sorts of fascinating queries such a...
Painting the Town Blue: Artivism and Bringing the Ocean to the Streets with Tré Packard and Akira Biondo
21 May 2026
Contributed by Lukas
Art has the power to change perspectives, spark dialogue, and raise awareness of the complex issues facing our ocean. This is exactly why PangeaSeed w...
All Shark, No Bite - How Ocean Acidification Could Affect Shark Teeth with Max Baum
07 May 2026
Contributed by Lukas
In August 2025, a paper published in the journal Frontiers in Marine Science suggested that ocean acidification could negatively impact a shark's mos...
The Secret History of Sharks! Shark Evolution and Adaptations with Professor John Long
23 Apr 2026
Contributed by Lukas
Sharks have been around a long, long time (over 450 million years!). But how did they evolve into the extraordinarily diverse and successful group of ...
Shark Depredation: An Emerging Challenge in Shark Conservation with Mina Hatayama
09 Apr 2026
Contributed by Lukas
The Maldives has served as a shark sanctuary for 15 years, and is now one of the most diverse regions for sharks and rays in the world. But with great...
Nurse Sharks: The Sharks That Like to Cuddle with Sergio Madrigal Mora
26 Mar 2026
Contributed by Lukas
Sometimes called the 'couch potatoes of the sea', nurse sharks are famous for their laid back attitude to life spending most of their days cosied up i...
How Do Sharks See The World? A Deep Dive Into Shark Vision with Dr Lily Fogg
12 Mar 2026
Contributed by Lukas
We know sharks have incredible senses, but just how good is their eyesight? In this episode, we explore the world through a shark's eyes with fish vis...
Ask Us Anything About Sharks! With Dr James Lea
26 Feb 2026
Contributed by Lukas
To kick off our new season, we're diving into our mailbag to answer your burning questions! From speedy sharks to mimicry and even fossilised shark po...
Making Way for Sharks and Rays: Where Do We Go From Here? With Sarah Fowler & Rima Jabado
11 Dec 2025
Contributed by Lukas
The conversations that shape the fate of sharks and rays rarely happen in quiet laboratories or out at sea. More often, they unfold in fluorescent-lit...
Bioluminescence: How Glowing Sharks Light Up the Deep
27 Nov 2025
Contributed by Lukas
Did you know that there are over 60 species of shark who are luminous? In this episode, we learn all about the sharks who light up the darkness of the...
On the Hunt! How Sharks Find and Catch their Food with Dr Yannis Papastamatiou
13 Nov 2025
Contributed by Lukas
How do sharks locate prey when they’re roaming the open ocean? What does a shark ambush look like? Are sharks capable of hunting cooperatively? And ...
Sharks in the Dark: Revisiting the Deep Sea with Dr Brit Finucci
30 Oct 2025
Contributed by Lukas
It’s spooky season, and what a great excuse to visit our friends in the dark; the deep-sea sharks, rays, skates and chimaeras! We’re joined by fis...
Hammerhead Sharks: Predators with Perspective with Dr Kelly Kingon
16 Oct 2025
Contributed by Lukas
From a shovel to a mallet, and even an aeroplane - the hammerheads really do win the prize for some of the most bizarrely shaped sharks out there. But...
Shark Movements, Food Webs and Flower Gardens with Brett Sweezey
02 Oct 2025
Contributed by Lukas
Tagging hammerheads, tracking silky sharks and exploring a remote coral paradise in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico…This week, we’re diving into ...
The Shark That Swims in Rivers: Protecting the Winghead Sharks of Papua New Guinea with Yolarnie Amepou
18 Sep 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A turtle that looks like a pig, and a shark that looks like a plane...in this episode, we're heading to the colourful, diverse lands of the Kikori Riv...
Studying Ancient Sharks at the End of the Earth: How Sevengills Are Responding to Climate Change in New Zealand’s Fiordland with Dr Alice Rogers
04 Sep 2025
Contributed by Lukas
Dive into the deep, remote waters of New Zealand's Fiordland with us as we meet the mysterious broadnose sevengill shark and the scientist who is tryi...
Eyes in the Sky: Using Drones to Gain Insight Into White Shark Behaviour with Carlos Gauna (The Malibu Artist)
21 Aug 2025
Contributed by Lukas
We're taking to the skies to find out what great white sharks get up to when no-one's looking... From his drone’s vantage, Carlos Gauna — AKA The ...
The Ups and Downs of Shark Movements with Dr Sammy Andrzejaczek
07 Aug 2025
Contributed by Lukas
Tagging tiger sharks, seamount navigation, and a great white shark called Princess Sparkles... This week, we're diving into the fascinating world of...
In the Field: Monitoring Sharks and Manta Rays on a Remote Island (PART 2 - Sharks)
17 Jul 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In part 2 of our 'In the Field' episode with the Save Our Seas Foundation D'Arros Research Centre, we are heading to the neighbouring atoll of St Jose...
In the Field: Monitoring Sharks and Manta Rays on a Remote Island (PART 1 - Manta Rays)
17 Jul 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of World of Sharks: In the Field, we are learning what it’s like to live and work on a tiny, remote island in the middle of the Indi...
BONUS EPISODE - 50 Years On: Was Jaws Really Bad for Sharks? With Amani Webber-Schultz and Chris Pepin-Neff
20 Jun 2025
Contributed by Lukas
We're gonna need a bigger podcast... In honour of the 50th anniversary of the release of Jaws - one of the most iconic shark movies of all time - we...
White Sharks: Secrets of a Top Predator with Dr Alison Kock
12 Jun 2025
Contributed by Lukas
They are the most iconic shark species of all time, known for their strength, hunting prowess, and long-distance travel. But there is a lot more to gr...
Filling the Gaps to Protect Sharks in Angola with Ana Lúcia Furtado Soares
29 May 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This week on the World of Sharks podcast we are meeting Ana Lúcia Furtado Soares, founder of the Angola Elasmo Project - a grassroots initiative focu...
Forensic Fisheries: Using DNA to Investigate the Trade in Shark Liver Oil with Dr Madeline Green
15 May 2025
Contributed by Lukas
The trade in shark liver oil is an invisible threat to sharks. Not only is there limited research on the topic, but liver oil is notoriously difficul...
Hungry Sharks? How a Shark's Digestive System Works
01 May 2025
Contributed by Lukas
Spiral intestines! Curly poop! A shark that eats plants! And…turning your stomach inside out because you ate something dodgy?! In this episode we ex...
Epaulette Sharks: The Sharks That Can Walk On Land with Faqih Akbar Algozali
17 Apr 2025
Contributed by Lukas
Why swim when you can just walk from a to b?! This week, we are taking a closer look at the "walking" or epaulette sharks, a group of nine species who...
The Fascinating and Weird World of Shark Eggs with Cat Gordon
03 Apr 2025
Contributed by Lukas
Join us for a slightly different easter egg hunt, as we go in search of shark eggcases! From tiny catshark eggcases no bigger than your index finger, ...
Electroreception: The Shark's Sixth Sense with Professor Stephen Kajiura
20 Mar 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, we are exploring the ‘sixth sense’ of sharks – electroreception! We are joined by sensory biologist and shark elasmobranch expe...
The Lives of Sharks with Dr Dean Grubbs
06 Mar 2025
Contributed by Lukas
How do sharks learn to be a shark? Do they really eat their siblings? Is there such a thing as a shark teenager? How do sharks find a mate? And what h...
Uncovering The Shark Meat Trade With Dr Divya Karnad and Dr Trisha Gupta
20 Feb 2025
Contributed by Lukas
The shark meat trade is a multi-billion dollar industry. But it receives relatively little attention, and remains understudied. This week, we sit down...
Sharks You Might Never Have Heard Of...With Kristian Parton
06 Feb 2025
Contributed by Lukas
You asked for more episodes on lesser known or slightly more obscure species - so we're kicking off a new season with a whole episode devoted to just ...
In the Field: The Great African Seaforest with Dr Jannes Landschoff
30 Jan 2025
Contributed by Lukas
Dive into the wonders of South Africa's kelp forests on this special episode of World of Sharks. Join us as we head beneath the waves with marine biol...
What's Happening to the World's Sharks and Rays? With Dr Rima Jabado and Alexandra Morata
05 Dec 2024
Contributed by Lukas
We know that globally, sharks and rays are in trouble. But just how bad is it? And can we still do something about it? In this special bonus episode...
The Next Frontier: How AI and Underwater Robots Can Help Us Better Understand Sharks with Martina Lonati
21 Nov 2024
Contributed by Lukas
Sadly, us humans can't spend every hour in the ocean staring at sharks (unfair, right?!). But do you know what can? Robots. UNDERWATER robots. In toda...
Searching for Sawfish on the Amazonian Coast with Dr Patricia Charvet
07 Nov 2024
Contributed by Lukas
There is a place where the largest and most powerful river in the world meets the Atlantic ocean, and one of the most threatened species of elasmobran...
Lemon Sharks: Baby Sharks That Live in Trees with Jillian Morris-Brake
24 Oct 2024
Contributed by Lukas
When life gives you lemon sharks...make a podcast about them! This week we are answering a request by listener Charlie to devote an episode entirely t...
How to Build a Career in Shark Science (Part 2!) Featuring the Guests of Seasons 5 and 6
10 Oct 2024
Contributed by Lukas
Thinking of a career in shark science and conservation? Struggling to find your niche? Found your niche, but trying to advance in your field? Or wonde...
Capacity Building for Shark Conservation with Dr Andrew Chin
26 Sep 2024
Contributed by Lukas
“Conservation is not drones and DNA samples or pamphlets or computers. It is people, and we should be investing in those people.” In this episode ...
Megalodon: Inside the Life of a Superpredator with Jack Cooper
12 Sep 2024
Contributed by Lukas
It’s the one you’ve all been waiting for…we’re going back in time to meet the largest shark to have ever existed: Otodus megalodon. Growing up...
The Importance of Linguistic Diversity in Shark Science with Jaime Penadés and Hettie Brown
29 Aug 2024
Contributed by Lukas
Sharks and rays are found all over the world; from the freezing waters of the Arctic to the tropical Indo-Pacific, and just about everywhere else in b...
Regional Endothermy: The Secret Superpower of the Mackerel Sharks with Dr Haley Dolton
15 Aug 2024
Contributed by Lukas
Did you know that some sharks can keep parts of their body warm to allow them to move faster, swim for longer, see more clearly and think better?? Or,...
Failure to Launch: Understanding Reproductive Failure in Turtles and Tortoises with Alessia Lavigne
01 Aug 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This week on the podcast we are taking a brief detour from sharks to explore the fascinating world of turtles and tortoises! We are diving into the re...
Building Safe Spaces for Sharks, and Shark Scientists with Jasmin Graham
18 Jul 2024
Contributed by Lukas
We welcome back shark scientist and CEO/Co-Founder of Minorities in Shark Sciences, Jasmin Graham, and celebrate the release of her new book, Sharks D...
In the Field: Basking Sharks with Dr Alexandra McInturf
27 Jun 2024
Contributed by Lukas
We are so excited to share with you a very special bonus episode of World of Sharks! Join us as we head into the field in search of the second largest...
Angel Sharks: Masters of Stealth and Critically Endangered
13 Jun 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This week we are diving into the world of angel sharks, the second most threatened group of elasmobranchs in the world. Joining us is co-founder and c...
Around the ocean in 80 sharks with Dr Helen Scales
30 May 2024
Contributed by Lukas
Sharks with beards. Deep sea sharks with glow-in-the-dark bellies. Sharks that take on submarines. Sharks that walk instead of swim and rays with a he...
Exploring Galápagos, the sharkiest place on Earth with Pelayo Salinas de León
16 May 2024
Contributed by Lukas
Come with us on a voyage to one of the most remote, biodiverse and "sharkiest" places on the planet with leading expert Pelayo Salinas, co-principal i...
Thresher Sharks: The Biomechanics of Tail-Whipping with Jamie Knaub
02 May 2024
Contributed by Lukas
Thresher sharks are known for their unusual hunting strategy. They use their long tail like a whip, striking it so fast that it creates a shockwave ca...
Protecting sharks and coastal livelihoods with Dr Hollie Booth
18 Apr 2024
Contributed by Lukas
Conservation is often more about understanding people than studying the animals we are trying to protect. In this episode we learn from Dr Hollie Boot...
Could climate change affect baby sharks? With Noémie Coulon
04 Apr 2024
Contributed by Lukas
The ocean is warming at a rapid pace. This year (2024) began with the highest global Sea Surface Temperature (SST) on record, and scientists are alrea...
The mystery of Charlotte, the pregnant stingray with Dr David Shiffman
21 Mar 2024
Contributed by Lukas
In February 2024, a round stingray from a small, rural aquarium in the middle of a shopping mall unexpectedly took the world by storm. She was pregnan...
Tackling the fin trade with CITES with Luke Warwick
07 Mar 2024
Contributed by Lukas
The international shark fin trade is a billion-dollar industry. It is also driving declines in shark populations around the world. In this episode, we...
The acoustic world of sharks: how do they hear? With Dr Lucille Chapuis
22 Feb 2024
Contributed by Lukas
Do sharks have ears? Are they good listeners? What are they listening for? Do great white sharks get freaked out by orca sounds? And what kind of musi...
Going back in time with shark skin! With Dr Erin Dillon
08 Feb 2024
Contributed by Lukas
Time travel. Ancient coral reefs. Shark sleuthing. The AMAZING properties of shark skin...this episode has it all! We're chatting with Dr Erin Dillon,...
Why have sharks been so successful? With Dr James Lea
21 Dec 2023
Contributed by Lukas
It's our 50th episode!! To celebrate, host Isla is joined by shark scientist and CEO of the Save Our Seas Foundation Dr James Lea to talk about the am...
How do I build a career in shark science? Featuring the guests of season 4!
07 Dec 2023
Contributed by Lukas
Starting out on your own career journey can be a little daunting, which is why we’ve put together this special episode of World of Sharks, filled wi...
How might pollution impact sharks? With Franco Cristiani
23 Nov 2023
Contributed by Lukas
Plastics. Oil spills. Industrial chemicals. Herbicides. Pesticides…the list of substances that we have dumped in the sea is endless. But scientists ...
Translating science into conservation action with Rob Bullock and Henriette Grimmel
09 Nov 2023
Contributed by Lukas
We’re heading back to the Seychelles this week to chat with research and programme directors for the Save Our Seas Foundation D’Arros Research Cen...
Ghost sharks: chimaeras, the sharks’ forgotten cousins with Dr Luz Erandi Saldaña Ruiz
26 Oct 2023
Contributed by Lukas
It's spooky season! And we're taking the opportunity to celebrate some close relatives of sharks and rays who don't get talked about as much as they d...
Shark brains: how are they wired? With Dr Kara E. Yopak
12 Oct 2023
Contributed by Lukas
Have you ever wondered what a shark’s brain looks like? How the brain of a goblin shark compares to a mako? What makes a whale shark tick? Or…what...
Saving sharks in the Seychelles with Ellie Moulinie and Dillys Pouponeau
28 Sep 2023
Contributed by Lukas
This week, we are transporting you to a tropical island haven for sharks and rays in the beautiful outer islands of the Seychelles! We will be guided ...
How powerful is a shark’s sense of smell? With Dr Lauren Eve Simonitis
14 Sep 2023
Contributed by Lukas
Sharks have a reputation as 'swimming noses' - but just how well can they smell? This week we are diving into the fascinating world of snoot science w...
Greenland Sharks: Old, Cold and Fascinating with Dr Julius Nielsen
31 Aug 2023
Contributed by Lukas
Greenland sharks are the world's longest living vertebrate, with a longevity that can be measured in centuries. But what do they do during that long l...
The history and politics of shark ”attacks” with Dr Chris Pepin-Neff
17 Aug 2023
Contributed by Lukas
The impact of the Hollywood blockbuster Jaws on shark conservation, public perception and even policy-making has been studied since its release in 197...
What can we learn from a shark’s DNA? With Professor Mahmood Shivji
27 Jul 2023
Contributed by Lukas
Grab your labcoats! This week we are diving into the fascinating world of genetics to find out what we can learn from shark DNA with Mahmood Shivji, p...
Celebrating weird, wonderful and obscure sharks with A-bel Gong, Brit Finucci and Vicky Vásquez
13 Jul 2023
Contributed by Lukas
Something we talk about a lot on this podcast is the sheer diversity of sharks and their relatives. With over 500 species of shark alone - not to ment...
Documenting the Great African Seaforest with Craig Foster
29 Jun 2023
Contributed by Lukas
This week on World of Sharks, we are diving into the Great African Seaforest - the world's only forest of giant bamboo kelp, which stretches more than...
Encouraging the next generation of shark conservationists with Dr Clova Mabin
15 Jun 2023
Contributed by Lukas
On today's episode of World of Sharks, we are discussing a very important topic in conservation: how to encourage, support and nurture young people to...
Exploring human connection with the ocean with Pippa Ehrlich
01 Jun 2023
Contributed by Lukas
We're learning new things about the ocean every day, but for centuries the ocean has taught us so much more. After the pandemic, many of us evaluated ...
The brilliant world of the blue shark with Dr Jenny Bortoluzzi
18 May 2023
Contributed by Lukas
This week on World of Sharks we are diving into the world of an iconic species: the blue shark, Prionace glauca. Known for their big eyes, pointed sno...
Do sharks hang out with their siblings? With Fenella Wood
04 May 2023
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of World of Sharks by the Save Our Seas Foundation, we're chatting all things spurdog, relatedness and genetics with molecular biologi...
Grants 101: tips for getting your project funded with Dr James Lea, Lee Crockett and Sarah Fowler OBE
20 Apr 2023
Contributed by Lukas
So, you want to study sharks. You have a brilliant research question, a solid methodology, and buckets of passion. There's just one thing missing...fu...
A global approach to shark and ray conservation with Rima Jabado, Emiliano García Rodríguez and Ciaran Hyde
06 Apr 2023
Contributed by Lukas
Sharks and ray populations across the world are in freefall. Reversing these declines requires a coordinated, global effort - but how can this be achi...
Creating impact through imagery with Thomas Peschak
23 Mar 2023
Contributed by Lukas
We are kicking off season 4 of the World of Sharks podcast (formerly the Whole Tooth podcast) with a bang! This episode, we are talking to legendary c...
An announcement!
09 Mar 2023
Contributed by Lukas
Shark nerds unite! WE'RE BACK! The World of Sharks podcast (formerly The Whole Tooth) will be back on Thursday 23rd March with a brand new season. As ...
What’s been happening in the world of sharks? With Dr James Lea and Jade Schultz
29 Dec 2022
Contributed by Lukas
As season 3 and 2022 draws to a close, host Isla sits down with Dr James Lea, CEO of the Save Our Seas Foundation (SOSF), and Jade Schultz, content ma...
Working with local communities for shark conservation with Alifa Haque and Dr Nadia Rubio
22 Dec 2022
Contributed by Lukas
We know that overfishing is the primary cause of global shark and ray declines. But, shark fisheries provide income and subsistence for many coastal c...
Climate change storytelling and Frozen Planet II with Yoland Bosiger and Rachel Butler Scott
08 Dec 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Frozen Planet II and Blue Planet II are landmark natural history series and masterclasses in climate change storytelling. Via captivating sequences, c...
What is the most endangered species of shark? With Dr Dave Ebert
24 Nov 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Recent studies have shown that over a third of shark and ray species are threatened with extinction. But which species are the most at risk? What are ...
Telling epic stories about sharks with Bertie Gregory
10 Nov 2022
Contributed by Lukas
What's it like to be booped by a leopard seal? Or dive with over 300 fin whales in Antarctica? And how do you keep your cool when filming underwater i...
What did prehistoric sharks look like? With Emma Bernard
27 Oct 2022
Contributed by Lukas
What did the oceans look like 450 million years ago? Who were the weird and whacky ancestors of the sharks we know today? And could megalodon still ex...
Orca predation on white sharks with Alison Towner
13 Oct 2022
Contributed by Lukas
What happens when two top ocean predators collide? This was a question that PhD candidate and white shark expert Alison Towner was faced with six year...
How can art help shark conservation? With Rachel Brooks
29 Sep 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Art has the power to change perspectives, and promote awe and wonder - can it do the same for sharks? We chat to ocean artist Rachel Brooks about putt...
Could microplastics impact sharks? With Dr Alina Wieczorek
15 Sep 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Whale and basking sharks are some of the biggest fish in the ocean – but could these gentle giants be threatened by something so small it can’t ev...
Secrets of the Galapagos whale sharks with Jonathan and Sofia Green
01 Sep 2022
Contributed by Lukas
This week we celebrated International Whale Shark Day! In honour of the world's largest fish, we spoke to Jonathan and Sofia of the Galapagos Whale Sh...
Season 3 Trailer!
26 Aug 2022
Contributed by Lukas
We're back! Season 3 of The Whole Tooth goes live on Thursday September 1st! We'll be answering ALL your shark and ocean related questions with the he...
Ask us anything about sharks! With James Lea, Jade Schultz and Lauren de Vos
21 Jul 2022
Contributed by Lukas
It's the last episode of the season which means once again, the Save Our Seas team have gathered to answer as many of your questions about sharks as w...
Diving into deep sea sharks! With Paul Clerkin and Sofia Graça Aranha
07 Jul 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Welcome back to the Whole Tooth, a podcast all about sharks, rays and the oceans. This week, host Isla is joined by deep-sea shark researchers Sofia G...
Do sharks have friends? With Dr Bryan Keller
23 Jun 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Welcome to another episode of The Whole Tooth, a shark podcast that asks YOUR questions to experts in shark and ocean science! This week, we are askin...
Celebrating ocean wins! With Sarah Fowler OBE
09 Jun 2022
Contributed by Lukas
We all know that our oceans are in trouble, and that taking action to protect and fight for them is incredibly important. But it can also be hard to m...
Do sharks matter? With Dr David Shiffman
26 May 2022
Contributed by Lukas
We all know that the majority of shark species are in decline. But what actually happens if they are lost from the ecosystem? How important are sharks...
Going Beyond Jaws with Andrew Lewin and Dr Dave Ebert
12 May 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Our guests this week are scientists, communicators and hosts of the Beyond Jaws podcast Andrew Lewin and Dave Ebert. Beyond Jaws is all about showcasi...
What’s happening to Antarctica’s penguins? With Dr Tom Hart
28 Apr 2022
Contributed by Lukas
On April 25th, we celebrated World Penguin Day - a day dedicated to celebrating these incredibly charismatic birds and raising awareness of the immens...
How do marine animals navigate the oceans? With Jesse Granger and Kyle Newton
14 Apr 2022
Contributed by Lukas
The global ocean is a vast place, spanning the entire planet and tens of thousands of kilometres deep. Many marine animals undertake huge migrations a...
Magnificent Mantas! With Lois Flounders, Yani Mohamed and Simon Hilbourne from the Manta Trust
31 Mar 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Get ready to chat all things sea pancake! This episode, we pitched all your questions about the mesmerising manta ray to Yani, Simon and Lois who work...
Reframing the narrative of sharks with Steve Backshall
17 Mar 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Grab your gear and get ready for an adventure, because this week I am joined by extreme explorer, naturalist and presenter Steve Backshall MBE! Throug...
Can sharks adapt to changing seas? With David Sims and Freya Womersley
03 Mar 2022
Contributed by Lukas
We're back! And we're kicking off season 2 by exploring our rapidly changing seas and the impacts of these changes on shark movements, distribution an...
How will climate change impact sharks? With Dr Jodie Rummer and Carolyn Wheeler
16 Dec 2021
Contributed by Lukas
For the FINAL episode of season 1, I am joined by fish physiologists Dr Jodie Rummer and Carolyn Wheeler to talk about a the most-asked-about subject ...
Ask us anything! With Dr James Lea and Jade Schultz
02 Dec 2021
Contributed by Lukas
This week SOSF content manager Jade Schultz put out a call on social media for all your shark and ocean related queries, so we could pitch them to sha...