Jonathan Sheffey

…One of the risks is that actually they're keeping their hands too tightly on the control. They're maybe micromanaging and it could turn into lots of busy work and that assistant type work as opposed to the truly delegating to a product ops person or team to really have that impact. And I worry that if people aren't fully bought in, but they're trying it. I'…

…but other times maybe not so. So why don't we talk a little bit about, if we've understood then through that discussion that product operations is about leverage, then let's talk a little bit about when you actually need it. A lot of our guests implicitly describe like a maturity curve and triggers for when product ops becomes necessary. Some of them said i…