Alistair Campbell

They actually need to do it.

What Mark Carney, I think, has done, and this is what leadership is about, in my view, he has signaled, he used the phrase, this is a rupture, not a transition.

Now, it may be that the rupture post-Trump or if Trump, you know, departs the mortal coil, it may be that the rupture is not permanent.

But I think the mindset that Carney is trying to give these other leaders is that we cannot stop pretending there is any way we're going back to the status quo, aren't we?

And I think he's right about that.

So they do have to build up defence, and they do have to improve their relations.

You say Europe's a basket case.

Europe is not as strong and as powerful as maybe it could be.

It's not as economically powerful as it could be.

Its defence and security isn't as powerful as it could be.

But they could still get there.

And they're only going to get there, in my view, if they actually do have the mindset that says, this is a rupture, not a transition.

All they were saying, I'll tell you the thing that I kept hearing is, look, let's stop pretending that China can remotely fill the gap that we've had with America.

Nobody's saying that.

Mark Carney didn't say that.

Keir Starmer's not saying that.

He's off to China today.

And at a time when I think it's the Telegraph is reporting this story that the Chinese spy on number 10 and blah, blah, blah.

What's new?

So I just think that we're not saying that.